HR10-250 OTA tuner vs. ATSC tuner in my TV

[shanman14]

I've struggled for a long time to receive my HD locals via OTA antenna through my HR10. I tried a half dozen antennas ranging from tabletop to attic mounted. Amplified and non-amplified, directional and multi-directional. The best I've ever been able to get is two channels at once with the HR10, and some never come in. In fact the signal strength jumps all over from 0 to 70 and back, it's impossible to aim a directional UHF antenna.

I all but gave up getting my HD locals through the HR10. Then, I bought a Samsung 32" LCD with a built-in HD tuner. Since I already have an antenna in the attic, I decided to hook it up directly to the TV. Through it, I get every single HD local channel with little to no pixelization. Back in the HR10 with the same setup, two channels and that's it.

Moral of the story, the Samsung ATSC tuner is much more forgiving than the HR10. The good news, I have my HD locals. The bad news, I can't record most of them.

Frustrating!!!

EDIT: I just read the 5 page thread about replacing the RG59 cables with RG6. I wish I'd seen that thread earlier! Worth a shot...

[litzdog911]

That might help. Bottom line, though, is that the HR10's OTA tuner is older technology than your TV's tuner. So it's no surprise that your TV does a better job pulling in signals.

[mr.unnatural]

Check the antennaweb.org website for info on choosing the correct antenna for your location. Setting up an antenna shouldn't be that hard but if you're in the fringe areas to begin with you're probably not getting enough signal strength for the HDTivo ATSC tuner to pick up the channels. The HDTivo OTA tuners have lower sensitivity than most similar tuners and require a higher gain signal to receive the stations properly. If you're more than 30 miles or more from the broadcast towers then you need a high gain antenna to get your locals via the HDTivo tuner.

[ike]

I've struggled for a long time to receive my HD locals via OTA antenna through my HR10. I tried a half dozen antennas ranging from tabletop to attic mounted. Amplified and non-amplified, directional and multi-directional. The best I've ever been able to get is two channels at once with the HR10, and some never come in. In fact the signal strength jumps all over from 0 to 70 and back, it's impossible to aim a directional UHF antenna.

I all but gave up getting my HD locals through the HR10. Then, I bought a Samsung 32" LCD with a built-in HD tuner. Since I already have an antenna in the attic, I decided to hook it up directly to the TV. Through it, I get every single HD local channel with little to no pixelization. Back in the HR10 with the same setup, two channels and that's it.

Moral of the story, the Samsung ATSC tuner is much more forgiving than the HR10. The good news, I have my HD locals. The bad news, I can't record most of them.

Frustrating!!!

EDIT: I just read the 5 page thread about replacing the RG59 cables with RG6. I wish I'd seen that thread earlier! Worth a shot...

And as you'll see in that thread, RG59 vs RG6 has nothing to do with reception improvments. In that short lenght of cable, the difference in attenuation between RG59 and RG6 is very, very, very negligible. But you may see an improvement by re-seating the connectors or replacing the connectors.

[rld1015]

I'd try reseating the connectors first. Would an amplifier at the input to the antenna connection possibly help??

[TonyD79]

The HR10 hates signals that are too strong. It hates multipath. It hates signals that are too weak.

Are you getting anything on the meter of the HR10? If it is too strong or multipath, you will probably see signal fluctuating wildly.

The solutions for too weak, too strong and multipath are different, so it is best if you can figure out which is which.

[SonicRanger001]

This is a sorta related question to this topic.

Why can't I use my HR10-250 to receive OTA HD locals. My unit is NOT currently hooked to a dish and therefore can't update the program guide and therefore can't allow me to watch live TV. If I do some upgrades or add some hax to my unit will I then be able to use it as a freestanding OTA tuner, I plan on eventually getting it hooked to a dish but right now I'd be happy with OTA only!

[TyroneShoes]

...The HDTivo OTA tuners have lower sensitivity than most similar tuners and require a higher gain signal to receive the stations properly...
And you base this on what?

Unless you have inside info about the design specs of the HR10, it sounds like nothing more than a wild-ass incorrect guess, but of course posted like it's gospel.

The information derived by hundreds of folks who have hands-on experience with reception on the HR10 seems to be just the opposite, which is that the the tuners have TOO MUCH sensitivity, and it is for that reason that people in areas with high signal levels find that the HR10 actually works better when the signal is attenuated somewhat, externally to the antenna connector.

Assuming the opposite also runs counter to the principles and physics involved in 8VSB digital reception, which unlike analog reception, has very little to do with carrier levels. For 8VSB, once you have a level just over a particular threshold (14.9 dB above residual noise, which is significantly lower than what is needed for "good" analog reception) any increase in carrier level has absolutely no affect on reception capability, or picture quality, for that matter. Analog reception, on the other hand, depends on as high a signal as you can get to ensure good reception, which is a completely different basic approach, and is why applying analog reception practices and thinking to 8VSB reception is likely not to yield very much success.

ATSC tuner technology has improved significantly since 1997, when if you were in an urban setting with no line of sight you would get no reception at all, even 5 miles from the transmitter. And the improvements have not typically been in the area of sensitivity to carrier levels, since that would not really be much of an improvement, especially at 5 miles away. The improvements have been in how well late-arriving signal copies (multipath interference) can be actively equalized out, or rejected. That sort of interference is the major impediment to 8VSB reception, and newer tuners are much better at rejecting it, resulting in better reception in reflective locations. Sensitivity has remained about the same, since that technology had been mined-out completely over the last 100 years or so, and has little to do with why HR10 tuners are not as good as newer models.

Unfortunately, the HR10 was designed at a time when 3rd-gen tuners were the norm, and field evidence would tend to confirm that it does not reject multipath interference as well as later-gen tuners, which appeared about that time. The HR20 is rumored to have the NeXt-Wave 5th-gen tuner, which is a big improvement on anything else out there. And it's an improvement because of one thing, which is its increased ability to reject multipath.

Bottom line, the HR10's tuner failings have nothing at all to do with how sensitive the tuner is, and everything to do with how well (or poorly) it rejects interference, comparitive to current tuners.

[JimSpence]

In my case, the HR10 does a worse job of locking on than my older HTL-HD receiver. I bought these two within 6 or 8 months of each other, so assuming they are of the same generation, then the Hughes (HTL) used better parts. Right now the HR10 is receiving 3 of our 4 channels with ~40 to 50 signal. The HTL is getting all 4 with >60 signals. Tonight, I'll probably lose 2 or 3. I need to do some antenna adjustments to alleviate multipath. I may also do the internal cable change to the HR10 (after the Super Bowl :)).

[Jon J]

The information derived by hundreds of folks who have hands-on experience with reception on the HR10 seems to be just the opposite, which is that the the tuners have TOO MUCH sensitivity...Just the opposite of my personal experience. My Sony TV tunes all seven of my local stations. My HR10 attached to the same antenna tunes three. On the four it cannot tune, the HR10 shows no signal on either tuner. Just sayin'...

[JimSpence]

However, too much sensitivity also means the multipath signals are high causing a lack of lock. The tuner needs to be able to reject multipath. Every location is different.

[rminsk]

Just the opposite of my personal experience. My Sony TV tunes all seven of my local stations. My HR10 attached to the same antenna tunes three. On the four it cannot tune, the HR10 shows no signal on either tuner. Just sayin'...Which as Tyrone pointed out could be other things besides "sensitivity". It could be multipath issues.

[sisterzero]

However, too much sensitivity also means the multipath signals are high causing a lack of lock. The tuner needs to be able to reject multipath. Every location is different.

The last sentence in JimSpence's reply is the most accurate statement posted here today.
Advice...fool around with antennas, splitters, FM traps, attenuators, different spots in the room, roof, etc...until you find something that works well. Took me three weeks of daily adjustments to get 5 of the 6 locals here in Chicago that I want. The only holdout is ABC and I've learned to live with the fact that Lost will just have to be in SD at this point.
Keep trying!!

[shanman14]

I've tried several antennas ranging from cheap set-top models to elaborate amplified attic models. In the end, I've determined it's the tuner. With my, now, attic mounted $25 non-amplified Radio Shack antenna I can get everything so long as it's plugged into the TV. There is no "best" anything, that much I can agree with!

On a different note, I took the cover off the HR10 and reseated the RCA and F connectors going from the OTA inputs to the tuners. Result?

Before I received NBC flawlessly, ABC was not really watchable but it came in a little. Now, the exact opposite. :eek: In fact, I can't get NBC in at all on the HR10. All other stations, still, do not come in.