LCD TV help

[warrenrb]

Hi All,

My mum & dad recently bought a Sony Bravia 26" LCD TV (HD Ready and all that). They've got a Tivo since I talked them into it about a year ago.

Now, here's the thing - am I right in thinking that LCD pictures don't look any good unless you've got an HD input? From what I've seen, they are compression artifact-tastic. I assume coz they are sharper, they show this up more (and maybe I'm just very tuned to it), but playback on this super new TV looks worse to me that my 9 year old Sony CRT. They record most stuff in Medium quality, but even live TV, or the Bravia's own Freeview tuner looks crap to me.

Also, the Tivo menus look bad to me too - I thought this was one area that might look better than CRT. FYI, I have set the TV to 'Wide' rather than 'Smart' or any other settings.

So, I'm not just on for a moan, I'm looking for advice. Is there anything (barring an HD input) that I can do to make the picture look better for them? Or am I right in believing that loads of people are rushing out and doing an 'emperor's new clothes' in buying fancy new HD LCD TV's, when they don't have and HD input for them?

Thanks for any tips or opinion,
Warren.

[Raisltin Majere]

***I'm no expert***

but I'm pretty sure that this is a common problem. HD TVs can have problems displaying a SD feed. I'm thinking it's something to do with the fact that they're fixed pixel displays, but wouldn't that mean other HD resolutions would be rubbish as well?

I *think* you can get a scaler (bit pricey though) and I *think* that will convert whatever feed it receives into the display's native resolution, making everything look pretty.

[blindlemon]

Have you ever tried setting the screen resolution on a PC with 1280x1024 LCD display to 1024x768 or lower? Ugh :(

Same problem. If you think about it, unless the resolution you're using is an exact factor of the resolution of the display on both axes, then some of the 'pixels' in the picture will be straddled across two physical pixels on the display when they should only actually be taking, say, 1.5, leading to the nasty effects you're seeing. And it's worse with TV than with PC displays too as the moving pictures tend to make the irregularities shift and 'crawl', whereas the more static images on a typical PC just look horrible in a motionless kind of way.

A decent scaler will fix it, but that will probably cost more than the TV.

[b166er]

Correct me if I'm wrong, which happens often, but doesn't your "default" recording setting have something to do with the quality you see even when passively viewing live TV through the TiVo? If I'm right, then setting it to best quality should improve things.

[AMc]

IIRC the live buffer is always at "Best" - that's why you get a channel change at the end of all recordings to reset the buffer.

I haven't seen an LCD TV showing a standard definition picture that could beat my 6+ year old CRT TV which makes it easier to keep £1000 in my pocket until there are more HD programmes about.

[blindlemon]

doesn't your "default" recording setting have something to do with the quality you see even when passively viewing live TV through the TiVo?Not unless a recording is in progress, but changing DefaultLiveRecordQuality in the Bitrates page of TiVoweb to something other than 100 will change the Live TV quailty.

[Ian_m]

What you need is One of these.. (http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/lu_scaler.html) which does a "proper job" of scaling and produces a superb picture on HD panels.

I have only seen these once in action (showing Freeview) and if I ever buy a HD panel one of these will be first on my list for watching standard def material ie TiVo output. I saw a Panasonic (plasma), Pioneer (plasma) and Sony (46" LCD) panels with and without a proper scaler and instantly saw why there is a ready market for such devices. By the way Sony gave the worst pictiure on SD material.

[blindlemon]

OK, I stand corrected. It will probably cost a mere 70% of the price of the TV :)

[Pete77]

There was an item about the disappointment experienced by many buyers of LCD televisions compared to what they see in the showroom on an edition of BBC Radio 4's You and Yours program last week.

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/02/2007_03_thu.shtml

What has happened to your parents old television by the way? If they have been missold the abilities of the LCD tv in relation to their current equipment by the salesman and it wasn't very long ago they could always try to press for a refund and go back to watching their old LCD television. ;) :eek:

[warrenrb]

That looks pretty interesting Ian, but a bit too hardcore for my mum and dad. :D

I thought my thinking was right, I really just wanted it confirmed by some of the more TV techie people on here - which you have, thank you.

It does feel like people are being mis-sold these sets at the moment - especially as they have built-in Freeview tuners that clearly have no hope of producing a decent picture.
And I imagine the majority of them will be used with this alone.

I obviously understand the pixel difference thing, but I've played both DVDs and eyeTV input at full screen on my 1680x1050 MacBook Pro, and they don't look as bad as the images on the TV. Maybe the Mac is interpolating it better? Maybe it gets more noticeable as the screen gets bigger?

It also makes me wonder why 1024x768 resolution TV's are sold as HD Ready when they are clearly neither 720p or 1080i/p (They aren't even 16:9 ratio!) - but that's probably another conversation for another tread.... :)

[warrenrb]

What has happened to your parents old television by the way? If they have been missold the abilities of the LCD tv in relation to their current equipment by the salesman and it wasn't very long ago they could always try to press for a refund and go back to watching their old LCD television. ;) :eek:

Funnily enough I don't think they feel disappointed OR mis-sold - they really like it (they are less discerning than me ;) ). I just wondered if I could do anything to improve what they have already - I take responsibility for their gadgetry.

Plus their old TV was a 24" 4:3, so the Sony still looks better to them.

[Pete77]

There was a discussion on the issue a few weeks back on the forum where the general conclusion was that using a Tivo picture on an LCD tv gave a worse result than on a good Plasma screen due to some aspect of the way the two different technologies produce the picture. So unfortunately an LCD tv is probably the worst choice of all to use with a Tivo. :( :down:

[Ian_m]

It does annoy me that many shops demonstrate their HD TV's off Sky/Freeview being fed via a scaler. I have seen this in Sony shops and even John Lewis, playing via a scaler outputing component/HDMI straight to panel.

John Lewis even let me unplug their DVD player once and plug the HDMI straight into the Pioneer panel and yes rubbish artifacty picture compared to via the scaler. Interestingly the Panasonic (I think) wouldn't take the 576i DVD player input via HDMI ??? (I think its because the scaler is analogue based ??). Another HDMI gotcha.

The picture looked very good via the scaler, certainly no great artifacts, blocks etc ruining the picture. How ever the buyer gets his nice expensive panel home and will be not be able to get an equivalent picture as in the shop.

A guy couple of doors away has a Sony 46" ( £2500 !!) HD panel and admits it its the worst hi-tec gadget he's ever bought as the picture quality on SD source (Sky) is rubbish. He tried to take it back after 3 months but the Sony shop were having none of it. Picture is stunning on hi-def, Sky HD, so he is hanging onto it hoping more hi-def material is available in the future.

[av guy]

I have just bought a panasonic TH-42PX60B Plasma for £1099, just after I bought my Tivo on ebay, I was a bit concerned regarding the screen size and SD images. The Panasonic was the best I seen under £3000 and all comparisons were done in SD, the shops were all displaying HD media when I seen them, a few shops were reluctant to show me a SD image, a lack of knowledge/willingness to change some leads, does not get sales! The quality of the picture with Sky Digital & Tivo both set to out put RGB is fantastic, I am using IXOS Flat Scart Cables all round, the extra expense is worth it. as for Sky passing through the Tivo I did notice that the Live TV images were a bit FUZZY at the edges, this was rectified by viewing Sky after pressing the Aux button on the Tivo remote. The Tivo menu system is very sharp!! even though its not HD..

[Pete77]

I have just bought a panasonic TH-42PX60B Plasma for £1099, just after I bought my Tivo on ebay, I was a bit concerned regarding the screen size and SD images. The Panasonic was the best I seen under £3000 and all comparisons were done in SD, the shops were all displaying HD media when I seen them, a few shops were reluctant to show me a SD image, a lack of knowledge/willingness to change some leads, does not get sales! The quality of the picture with Sky Digital & Tivo both set to out put RGB is fantastic, I am using IXOS Flat Scart Cables all round, the extra expense is worth it. as for Sky passing through the Tivo I did notice that the Live TV images were a bit FUZZY at the edges, this was rectified by viewing Sky after pressing the Aux button on the Tivo remote. The Tivo menu system is very sharp!! even though its not HD..

General view seems to be that Plasma is a lot better with SD images than LCD, even though LCD is theoretically ultimately superior for true HD pictures.

On that basis I think I will stick with the CRT for the time being until a 42" Panasonic or Sony Plasma is so ludicrously cheap that it would simply be rude to say No.

[TCM2007]

There was a discussion on the issue a few weeks back on the forum where the general conclusion was that using a Tivo picture on an LCD tv gave a worse result than on a good Plasma screen due to some aspect of the way the two different technologies produce the picture. So unfortunately an LCD tv is probably the worst choice of all to use with a Tivo. :( :down:

Really? Can't see any reason for TiVo to be different on plasma or LCD. Do you have a link?

Digital SD sources do look pretty bad on HD displays in general, although different TVs scaling technology is different so there are exceptions. I'm perfectly happy with my DLP set, although things are definitely improved by using a PC to do the scaling.

[rwtomkins]

Come on, isn't someone going to let him in on the Mode 0 secret? Surely that's the answer to his problems?

I found LCD works very well with Freeview, it just takes a while for the eyes to adjust to the different viewing experience - and it's very important indeed not to get up too close. There's no way I'd go back to CRT now, and I haven't even experienced HD yet.

[blindlemon]

Not the entire answer, but you're right that it could improve the picture as it will bring the resolution of the source closer to that of the TV.

[Pete77]

Come on, isn't someone going to let him in on the Mode 0 secret? Surely that's the answer to his problems?

You mean

www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=286938&page=1

and

www.tivoheaven.com

and

www.ljay.org.uk/tivoweb/tivo_fpga.html

[warrenrb]

Come on, isn't someone going to let him in on the Mode 0 secret? Surely that's the answer to his problems?

You talking about me, the original poster?

Yeah, I know about Mode 0, but this is my mum & dad's (wait for it) UNHACKED tivo, with ORIGINAL 40Gb drive! :O (Really should up that for them sometime...)

When they got the TV, I up'ed their default record quality from Medium to High, and a few days later they said "It's deleting stuff! Put it back!" :D

Anyway, my points were less about the tivo quality, more about it's SD output quality generally (i.e. straight from the internal Freeview tuner is pants too). :)

[Pete77]

Yeah, I know about Mode 0, but this is my mum & dad's (wait for it) UNHACKED tivo, with ORIGINAL 40Gb drive! :O (Really should up that for them sometime...)

When they got the TV, I up'ed their default record quality from Medium to High, and a few days later they said "It's deleting stuff! Put it back!" :D

Anyway, my points were less about the tivo quality, more about it's SD output quality generally (i.e. straight from the internal Freeview tuner is pants too). :)

Seems like you probably need to fit a larger hard drive and let them record everything at Best then?

As to the internal tuner yes its quality has always been pants due to being UHF analogue. A Freeview box using RGB usually seems to give pretty good results though.

[warrenrb]

As to the internal tuner yes its quality has always been pants due to being UHF analogue. A Freeview box using RGB usually seems to give pretty good results though.

Sorry, the internal tuner IS a digital freeview tuner.

[Pete77]

Sorry, the internal tuner IS a digital freeview tuner.

No. The internal Tivo tuner is definitely a UHF analogue tv tuner capable of covering Ch21 to 69 and BBC1, BBC2, ITV1, CH4 and Five only.

One can attach a Freeview, Sky Digital, NTL Digital, NTL Cable or Homechoice box via a SCART lead though.

[warrenrb]

No. The internal Tivo tuner is definitely a UHF analogue tv tuner capable of covering Ch21 to 69 and BBC1, BBC2, ITV1, CH4 and Five only.

Hehehe. I'm talking about the Sony Bravia Internal Freeview Tuner. :D

[Pete77]

Hehehe. I'm talking about the Sony Bravia Internal Freeview Tuner. :D

Is this Freeview box with the internal Freeview tuner one of these Sony Bravia integrated HDD Freeview boxes that are in fact a rebadged Digifusion model then, so not rated very highly really compared to the competition from Humax for instance.

See www.lordpercy.com/sony_freeview_pvr.htm

[mikerr]

Since you say the tivo menus look bad, it may be the screens processing at fault,

a) Try altering the "sharpness" control
b) Look for a "3d comb" deinterlace option, which will improve static menus.

The latter made a huge difference in menu quality on my panasonic viera 37" LCD

[Mike Jones]

I bought a Sony Bravia 40" HD Tv in December 2005, and the picture through TIVO is brilliant - I haven't got mode 0.

Internal tuner is also very good, not a lot in it.

I thought about Sky HD, but couldn't see much difference in the Sony shop.

That £825 scaler is tempting though ;0 I suppose it would save on buying an upscaling dvd player.

[TCM2007]

I bought a Sony Bravia 40" HD Tv in December 2005, and the picture through TIVO is brilliant - I haven't got mode 0.

Internal tuner is also very good, not a lot in it.

I thought about Sky HD, but couldn't see much difference in the Sony shop.

That £825 scaler is tempting though ;0 I suppose it would save on buying an upscaling dvd player.

Terrible shop then! The difference is stunning. It does make SD (TiVo or no) look very poor.

Presumably you are not particularly sensitive to seeing MPEG artifacts if you describe Tivo's double encoded pic into a 40-inch display as "brilliant". For your sanity, i suggest you try to keep it that way. as soon ans you notice them and they bother you you are into a world of tweaking pain!

[Longitude]

I recently replaced my Sony crt with a Toshiba 32"lcd with integrated freeview tuner. I'd previously viewed and recorded freeview with a Netgem stb. Out of the box the factory settings were dreadful and after reading the av forums about this tv I now have a picture that is superior on all sources. I still record freeview channels with my stb on my Tivo and provided you use the rgb outputs out of the stb, into the tivo and out again to the tv and record in best quality I'm convinced the Toshiba picture is superior. However, what I do notice is that the compression artefacts are more noticeable on the Tosh. I think this is a subjective thing similar to people who think a vinyl record played through an old valve amp sounds better than cd through a modern amp.

[Mike Jones]

TCM2007 - everyone has the right to their own opinion! I think the Sony does a very, very good job of converting what it gets from the TIVO to a great picture. Life on Earth or whatever that HD filmed BBC programme was called really was brilliant.

The cricket on the other hand isn't so good, but that's probably because we are so **** at it anyway.

[johnnye]

To the OP: I don't know what sort of Bravia it is, but when I got mine I spent about a day messing with the settings - they were all set up to show nice bright pictures in a showroom. I'm very pleased with it now, including the Tivo menus which originally looked awful. I used the following web site for some guidance on where to start - it's for the 32V2000 but I guess most of the Bravias will be similar: http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=61818