Rome 1/13/07 E01S02 "Passover"

[Anubys]

Wow...what a start to the season...I was on the edge of my seat the entire hour...how can HBO cancel such a show?

absolutely fantastic start to the season...so many things to talk about, I don't know where to begin...

I wonder where Vorenus was going with the guy's head?

[Anubys]

argh...put the date wrong in the thread title...

should be 1/14/07...sorry!

[heySkippy]

Awesome start to season 2!

[gpejsa]

Agreed on the awesome show. I enjoyed the first two episodes of '24', but I thought Rome was the best debut on Sunday night. I absolutely enjoy the performance given by the actor playing Marc Antony. He is hilarious!

[angbear1985]

I had no clue ... really - HBO canceled the series ?
So good!
Why ???

[drew2k]

Great start to the season!

It seems some fortunes have reversed: Pullo is now happy and Vorenus is in despair.

I'm not sure if I feel sorry for Vorenus, though. He was about to kill his wife for being unfaithful while he was gone for over 4 years, and he had cursed his children, essentially banning them from his life. Even after that, I'm tending to feel sorry for Vorenus ...

I love that we never hear the famous "Et tu Brutus?" line, but in the season opener we heard Brutus ask, "You too, Mother?"

It was also great how Gaius Octavian came up with a way for the family to stay in Rome and for him to keep his "father's" wealth and status. Especially how he convinced Atia to stay. It's going to be fun watching Atia wield her new influence ...

[Royster]

I wonder where Vorenus was going with the guy's head?

To throw it in the river? There won't be anyone putting a coin on his lips to pay Charon.

The thing I really like about this show is the way that we get to see life for the nobility as well as the middle and lower classes. Last night we had Pullo's simple marriage -- a promise sealed with some ash on the forehead. We've seen several before now in Season 1.

And we had the funerals. Caesar's grand affair of state with orators. Contrasted with Vorenus taking care of his wife's funeral and having to sift the ashes himself. That and the reported death of Vorenus' children with a unceremonius burial in the Tiber.

[drew2k]

You are correct about the mini-series, but incorrect about the series not being canceled - it was.

The powers-that-be liked Rome so much it's first season, they wanted it to be a long-running series. However, reality set in seeing how expensive the series is, so they decided to make the 2nd season the final season.

Links:

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/zap-romeendingafterseason2,0,5831913.story

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=7184

[lml55]

I had no idea it cost that much to make, but I am deeply disappointed this show is over after this season. Last nights premiere was powerful, and this is my favorite show on TV right now.

Everything about this show is amazing. I'll have to enjoy it while it lasts.

[angbear1985]

I had no idea it cost that much to make, but I am deeply disappointed this show is over after this season. Last nights premiere was powerful, and this is my favorite show on TV right now.

Everything about this show is amazing. I'll have to enjoy it while it lasts.


My husband will be so upset - when I tell him, that this is the last season for it! Not right ! :mad:

[TostitoBandito]

I think ending it after this season is probably actually a good thing. All you would really have left once Octavian/Augustus takes the throne is the Vorenus and Pullo show since the rest of Rome has about 50 years of peace and prosperity. No other political drama really happens until Octavian/Augustus dies much much later. Since a large part of what makes Rome great is the classic drama and power struggle surrounding Caesar's rise to power and death, it would lose a lot without that.

Oh, and this episode was amazing.

[5thcrewman]

...I love that we never hear the famous "Et tu Brutus?"...
Nor the 'I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him ' speech, but it had its effect!

[astrohip]

Ditto on the 'loved it' accolades. I don't know that I would say it was a better season opener than 24, but it certainly held its own. :up:

I was somewhat concerned I wouldn't remember who was who, and what was what, since the last episodes aired in 2005 (yes, it's been that long!). But other than getting a couple of the redheads confused at first, I was right at home.

Do we know how many episodes comprise this final season?

[DLiquid]

Great episode! So do you think Vorenus' children are really dead? It almost seemed like the guy was making that story up, but maybe not.

Atia's put on quite a few pounds in the off season.

[heySkippy]

Great episode! So do you think Vorenus' children are really dead? It almost seemed like the guy was making that story up, but maybe not.

It never even occurred to me that the guy was lying about killing the children. I'm pretty certain they're dead in just the manner he described.

[cheesesteak]

I don't think Vorenus's kids are dead.

I wish I were Marc Antony.

[drew2k]

I don't think Vorenus's kids are dead.

I wish I were Marc Antony.Quick, fetch the German slut from the kitchen for Cheesecake!

[TostitoBandito]

Quick, fetch the German slut from the kitchen for Cheesecake!

That was awesome. "I'm not going anywhere until I get f#$%^@ by somebody"

[TostitoBandito]

It never even occurred to me that the guy was lying about killing the children. I'm pretty certain they're dead in just the manner he described.

My first reaction was actually that he was lying. I guess we will see.

[Bananfish]

I also think it's possible Erastes was lying. The theory being that he saw the viciousness and intensity with which Vorenus and Pullo had murdered his entire crew, and knew he was going to be next one way or another .... better to make Vorenus angry so he would do it instantly rather than torture him first.

(Not unlike the brilliantly acted scene in True Romance with Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walken - "I think I'll have that cigarette now.")

If I had to bet, I'd say the kids are all dead - for one thing, the producers are undoubtedly aware that having Vorenus play Mr. Mommy for the rest of the season doesn't make for the kind of drama that makes Rome great. But it certainly won't surprise me if they're not.

[drew2k]

If I had to bet, I'd say the kids are all dead - for one thing, the producers are undoubtedly aware that having Vorenus play Mr. Mommy for the rest of the season doesn't make for the kind of drama that makes Rome great. But it certainly won't surprise me if they're not.I'd agree that the kids are dead, but mostly because of next week's previews:Vorenus makes an announcement, and it appears he is taking over Erastes' old job. Hard to be the neighborhood meanie with kids in tow ...

[TostitoBandito]

I'd agree that the kids are dead, but mostly because of next week's previews:Vorenus makes an announcement, and it appears he is taking over Erastes' old job. Hard to be the neighborhood meanie with kids in tow ...

That doesn't mean he can't discover his kids later in the season, possibly as a method of redemption if he manages to pull himself out of his new occupation. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's definitely still open at this point.

[5thcrewman]

So Vorenus whacked Erastes. Does he drive an Escalade?

[drew2k]

That doesn't mean he can't discover his kids later in the season, possibly as a method of redemption if he manages to pull himself out of his new occupation.Fair point, and fitting for the honorable and noble Vorenus we've come to know.

[TostitoBandito]

So Vorenus whacked Erastes. Does he drive an Escalade?

The proper question is does he play for the Bengals.

[Anubys]

If I had to bet, I'd say the kids are all dead - for one thing, the producers are undoubtedly aware that having Vorenus play Mr. Mommy for the rest of the season doesn't make for the kind of drama that makes Rome great. But it certainly won't surprise me if they're not.

it's not like he can't find women to marry or help to take care of the kids...I don't see that as a reason...

[Royster]

So Vorenus whacked Erastes. Does he drive an Escalade?

I doubt it, but I was definately getting a Sporanos vibe from the guy who was describing Caesar's funeral.

[pmyers]

What happaned to Caesar's son that he had with Cleopatra....If I am remembering that all correctly from last season.

[angbear1985]

What happaned to Caesar's son that he had with Cleopatra....If I am remembering that all correctly from last season.

Yeah - What did happen? They even showed that clip, in the "previously on ROME".

[SeanC]

(Not unlike the brilliantly acted scene in True Romance with Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walken - "I think I'll have that cigarette now.")

I agree with your whole post, most especially the TR scene.

Love that scene, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it, love it.

[Anubys]

What happaned to Caesar's son that he had with Cleopatra....If I am remembering that all correctly from last season.

clearly he will come into play...but he's merely a child so it he should only be important relative to Cleopatra and Anthony story arc...

[Royster]

What happaned to Caesar's son that he had with Cleopatra....If I am remembering that all correctly from last season.

He gets killed in the upcoming carnage. As history has recorded. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarion)

[pmyers]

clearly he will come into play...but he's merely a child so it he should only be important relative to Cleopatra and Anthony story arc...

Well I was thinking that it should have come into play during the reading of the will and making the other kid his official son.

[Anubys]

Well I was thinking that it should have come into play during the reading of the will and making the other kid his official son.

who would make a stink about it, though? never mind the fact that he's not pure Roman, he's only a child...Octavian wasn't going to bring it up...Anthony would have no interest in it...the other faction wanted to rule, so THEY wouldn't bring it up...

[mrpantstm]

Great premier.

I can't wait to see what Octavian becomes in the coming episodes. I only wish this show would go on long enough for him to be truly developed.

[drew2k]

Great premier.

I can't wait to see what Octavian becomes in the coming episodes. I only wish this show would go on long enough for him to be truly developed.I did notice some development ... the actor playing Octavian clearly shot up a few inches since 2005!

[TostitoBandito]

Great premier.

I can't wait to see what Octavian becomes in the coming episodes. I only wish this show would go on long enough for him to be truly developed.

There's clearly going to be a leap of a number of years at some point in the series when they will transition actors. Historically, a large amount of time passes between where they are now, and where they need to be at the end of the season when Augustus gets the throne.

[drew2k]

Article on Rome in the latest Newsweek: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16600111/site/newsweek/

[Bananfish]

There's clearly going to be a leap of a number of years at some point in the series when they will transition actors. Historically, a large amount of time passes between where they are now, and where they need to be at the end of the season when Augustus gets the throne.

I don't think we'll see new actors.

It's 44 BC right now, and the logical spot for this season to end is probably with Augustus's victory at Antium in 31 BC. Other than Octavian, I think all the actors are capable of aging that number of years with only relatively minor makeup. And I'm guessing that even Octavian can mature into a 30 year old through the magic of makeup too.

By contrast, the first season started from somewhere between 54 BC, when Pompey's wife/Caesar's daughter died, and 52 BC, when Caesar defeated the Gauls (they kind of blended those two events together), and ended in 44 BC, so 8-10 years total.

Obviously, Octavian hasn't aged 8-10 years since the start of the series, so they are playing somewhat loose with that, but there's not much that can be done about it.

[cherry ghost]

I don't think we'll see new actors.

It's 44 BC right now, and the logical spot for this season to end is probably with Augustus's victory at Antium in 31 BC. Other than Octavian, I think all the actors are capable of aging that number of years with only relatively minor makeup. And I'm guessing that even Octavian can mature into a 30 year old through the magic of makeup too.

By contrast, the first season started from somewhere between 54 BC, when Pompey's wife/Caesar's daughter died, and 52 BC, when Caesar defeated the Gauls (they kind of blended those two events together), and ended in 44 BC, so 8-10 years total.

Obviously, Octavian hasn't aged 8-10 years since the start of the series, so they are playing somewhat loose with that, but there's not much that can be done about it.

There will be a new Octavian, Simon Woods, in the fourth episode.

[stevemcl]

The proper question is does he play for the Bengals.

The Bengals could use someone like him. He could be a badass safety or something. (Bengal season ticket holder)

[Anubys]

I don't think we'll see new actors.

It's 44 BC right now, and the logical spot for this season to end is probably with Augustus's victory at Antium in 31 BC. Other than Octavian, I think all the actors are capable of aging that number of years with only relatively minor makeup. And I'm guessing that even Octavian can mature into a 30 year old through the magic of makeup too.

By contrast, the first season started from somewhere between 54 BC, when Pompey's wife/Caesar's daughter died, and 52 BC, when Caesar defeated the Gauls (they kind of blended those two events together), and ended in 44 BC, so 8-10 years total.

Obviously, Octavian hasn't aged 8-10 years since the start of the series, so they are playing somewhat loose with that, but there's not much that can be done about it.

can't they just use an older actor to replace Octavian? someone with similar features that might pass as an older version of the current teenager?

it seems like a much simpler solution and one that has been used many times before on other show/movies...

[drew2k]

can't they just use an older actor to replace Octavian? someone with similar features that might pass as an older version of the current teenager?

it seems like a much simpler solution and one that has been used many times before on other show/movies...Have you looked closely at the post just two above yours?

:)

[Anubys]

Have you looked closely at the post just two above yours?

:)

well, I don't read spoilers... :o

[drew2k]

well, I don't read spoilers... :oAh, ok ... I hope I was vague enough then ... if not, sorry! :o

[Anubys]

Ah, ok ... I hope I was vague enough then ... if not, sorry! :o

that ship has sailed...it's not hard to figure out what was there based on your comment...no worries, I love being proven right...so I'm not upset ;)

I'm also not a spoiler freak like some people around here...so really no big deal...

[dcheesi]

Nor the 'I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him ' speech, but it had its effect!Like the omission of the decisive battle in Season 1, this omission of a major turning-point moment felt weird to me. In the former case, it's understandable: the show is not about battle strategy, and anyway filming such a battle would be far too expensive. But in this case I can't see a reason to avoid the speeches entirely, unless the writers were just too afraid to compete with Shakespeare's version? (They certainly seem to be avoiding using Shakespeare directly, as with the "Et tu Brute" moment.)

Regarding the kids: if there's no bodies, then they're not dead! Anyone who's watched this show should realize that they'd never miss an opportunity for bloody violence (or corpses), so the lack of it here pretty much seals it for me :)

[Anubys]

Regarding the kids: if there's no bodies, then they're not dead! Anyone who's watched this show should realize that they'd never miss an opportunity for bloody violence (or corpses), so the lack of it here pretty much seals it for me :)

but these were children, though...if he raped them and then killed them as he said, I'm quite satisfied with not showing any of that!

[angbear1985]

but these were children, though...if he raped them and then killed them as he said, I'm quite satisfied with not showing any of that!

+1 Agree

[TostitoBandito]

Like the omission of the decisive battle in Season 1, this omission of a major turning-point moment felt weird to me. In the former case, it's understandable: the show is not about battle strategy, and anyway filming such a battle would be far too expensive. But in this case I can't see a reason to avoid the speeches entirely, unless the writers were just too afraid to compete with Shakespeare's version? (They certainly seem to be avoiding using Shakespeare directly, as with the "Et tu Brute" moment.)

Regarding the kids: if there's no bodies, then they're not dead! Anyone who's watched this show should realize that they'd never miss an opportunity for bloody violence (or corpses), so the lack of it here pretty much seals it for me :)


I'm pretty sure the battle was omitted for budgetary reasons. For a series which was already extremely expensive, it doesn't make sense to shoot an expensive battle sequence which might not really be integral to the story in the sense that you need to SEE the battle. I remember them talking about this in one of the behind-the-scenes documentaries I saw. They gave us a montage instead which ended with us seeing Pompey's standard fall to the ground and his forces in retreat.

[dcheesi]

but these were children, though...if he raped them and then killed them as he said, I'm quite satisfied with not showing any of that!True, even HBO has some limits, thankfully. But I still think we would have seen something, eg. he finds the corpses in a back room of Erastes' compound or something. The total absence of any visual confirmation is suspicious, IMHO.

Perhaps you're right, though. All of the nasty beheadings, etc. have involved adult men, IIRC. Maybe they're drawing a stronger distinction than I realized when it comes to women (don't forget Niobe's sister was with them) and children.

[Royster]

Like the omission of the decisive battle in Season 1, this omission of a major turning-point moment felt weird to me. In the former case, it's understandable: the show is not about battle strategy, and anyway filming such a battle would be far too expensive. But in this case I can't see a reason to avoid the speeches entirely, unless the writers were just too afraid to compete with Shakespeare's version?

They related what happened, but in a way that made it clear the impact of the event outside of the words used but without the expense of staging a huge crowd scene. As storytelling, I thought the way they did it was very effective. The important thing was not what was said, but the way that MA used the crowd while Brutus spoke over their head.

[Rob Helmerichs]

True, even HBO has some limits, thankfully. But I still think we would have seen something, eg. he finds the corpses in a back room of Erastes' compound or something. The total absence of any visual confirmation is suspicious, IMHO.

Perhaps you're right, though. All of the nasty beheadings, etc. have involved adult men, IIRC. Maybe they're drawing a stronger distinction than I realized when it comes to women (don't forget Niobe's sister was with them) and children.
I think you were right the first time. If they were dead, or even if we were meant to think they were dead, we would have been given more to go by than the words of somebody trying to acquire a quick death.

[ravonaf]

True, even HBO has some limits, thankfully. But I still think we would have seen something, eg. he finds the corpses in a back room of Erastes' compound or something. The total absence of any visual confirmation is suspicious, IMHO.

Perhaps you're right, though. All of the nasty beheadings, etc. have involved adult men, IIRC. Maybe they're drawing a stronger distinction than I realized when it comes to women (don't forget Niobe's sister was with them) and children.

I believe the whole point of throwing the bodies in the river was so they could not get a proper funeral and send off into the after life. Not so that the writers could use this as a plot point to bring the kids back at a later time. What happened to his children was the worst possible thing that coulde ever happen to someone from the father's point of view. It will be used to fuel his character for the rest of the season. Finding the corpses would have been fantastic. Then he could make sure his children are united with thier mother.

[Anubys]

I'm not disagreeing that there's a chance the kids are alive...it's just as likely that he sold them as slaves...

when faced with certain death -- and he was certain to die -- what better revenge than destroy the man who will kill you?

1. he's likely not to look for them, and thus his revenge continues
2. he's likely to kill himself in sorrow and thus his revenge is sweeter

all I was saying is that the fact they didn't show is only proof that -- if indeed they are dead -- HBO has enough common sense ;)

[angbear1985]

I believe the whole point of throwing the bodies in the river was so they could not get a proper funeral and send off into the after life. Not so that the writers could use this as a plot point to bring the kids back at a later time. What happened to his children was the worst possible thing that coulde ever happen to someone from the father's point of view. It will be used to fuel his character for the rest of the season. Finding the corpses would have been fantastic. Then he could make sure his children are united with thier mother.

Especially, since he cursed them, too. Will really be fuel for his character, too. He will forever think this is due to him cursing them.

[pmyers]

I believe they are dead. Why on earth would that guy lie about it knowing that he would then be killed. If they were alive, he would have taken him to them and hoped for the best.

[ravonaf]

Isn't Vorenus still a senator? Why on earch was the guy so stupid to go after his family. Even if Vorenus and Pullo weren't the greatest fighters in the city Vorenus could just as easily had him arrested and thrown into the gladiator pits, or assasinated, or any other number of things. Maybe he thought since Ceasar was killed that he had lost his power.

[dcheesi]

I believe they are dead. Why on earth would that guy lie about it knowing that he would then be killed. If they were alive, he would have taken him to them and hoped for the best.Well just in the previous scene they had shown that Erastes had his own bizarre moral code --particularly when it comes to honoring the dead. So two things:

1) He might have been too proud to beg or admit defeat, even if it meant his life. By lying he maintained his dignity and taunted his enemy at the same time.

2) Although it's possible that his hatred was personal enough to overcome his principles in this case, it's clear that he didn't normally like dishonoring the dead even to prove a political point. In fact, I really can't think of a good reason for his odd moral stance in the previous scene except as hint to the viewer that his later statement might be a lie.

[Anubys]

I believe they are dead. Why on earth would that guy lie about it knowing that he would then be killed. If they were alive, he would have taken him to them and hoped for the best.

he saw the carnage, he saw the two of them, and he knew his life expectancy became mere seconds...

[dcheesi]

EDIT: Nothing to see here, move along... :o
OTOH, I did just think of one good reason not to show the kids' (and sister's) deaths: they would have had to bring the actresses back in for a single episode or even a single scene in the new season. Sometimes TV actors' union contracts have weird stipulations that make this unusually expensive when it involves 'regulars' from the previous season. I vaguely recall something like this cropping up with in the last season of Babylon 5 after Ivanova left(?). So it's possible that once they'd decided to write out these characters, it was simply cheaper to do it in a way that didn't require any actual appearances.

[Rob Helmerichs]

he saw the carnage, he saw the two of them, and he knew his life expectancy became mere seconds...
He knew BEST CASE his life expectancy was mere seconds. He was trying to avoid the alternative by provoking Verenus into killing him quickly.
OTOH, I did just think of one good reason not to show the kids' (and sister's) deaths: they would have had to bring the actresses back in for a single episode or even a single scene in the new season. Sometimes TV actors' union contracts have weird stipulations that make this unusually expensive when it involves 'regulars' from the previous season. I vaguely recall something like this cropping up with in the last season of Babylon 5 after Ivanova left(?). So it's possible that once they'd decided to write out these characters, it was simply cheaper to do it in a way that didn't require any actual appearances.
...except they were in the scene where Erastes kidnapped them.

[dcheesi]

...except they were in the scene where Erastes kidnapped them.Doh! You're right. I was thinking that that scene was at the end of last season's finale (I watched them more or less back to back). "Nevermind..." :o

[TostitoBandito]

Isn't Vorenus still a senator? Why on earch was the guy so stupid to go after his family. Even if Vorenus and Pullo weren't the greatest fighters in the city Vorenus could just as easily had him arrested and thrown into the gladiator pits, or assasinated, or any other number of things. Maybe he thought since Ceasar was killed that he had lost his power.

He never had any power, he was Caesar's puppet senator bodyguard. He knew this, and yes I think he assumes it's all over and he probably also feels responsible in part for Caesar's death (regardless of it being a good or bad thing for Rome, Vorenus didn't do his duty and that would be hard on him as a former soldier). I'm sure we'll get more explanation in future episodes as well.

[Joeg180]

Can I get any CEU's for reading this post? :)

Great episode, I think the kids were sold as slaves instead of being tossed in the river.

Why not turn a profit?

[angbear1985]

Great episode, I think the kids were sold as slaves instead of being tossed in the river.

Why not turn a profit?

My husband thinks the same thing.

[drew2k]

He never had any power, he was Caesar's puppet senator bodyguard. He knew this, and yes I think he assumes it's all over and he probably also feels responsible in part for Caesar's death (regardless of it being a good or bad thing for Rome, Vorenus didn't do his duty and that would be hard on him as a former soldier). I'm sure we'll get more explanation in future episodes as well.On top of that, wasn't Vorenus only elevated to Senator the day BEFORE Caesar was killed? How widely known would his new position have become in only 24 hours?

[dcheesi]

Great episode, I think the kids were sold as slaves instead of being tossed in the river.

Why not turn a profit?I was thinking that as well. They'd have to be sent/sold somewhere far outside the city, though; otherwise they could potentially escape and find someone they know who can vouch for their identity/citizenship...

[TostitoBandito]

I was thinking that as well. They'd have to be sent/sold somewhere far outside the city, though; otherwise they could potentially escape and find someone they know who can vouch for their identity/citizenship...

They probably end up in Alexandria or someplace if that is the case. That way they have a way to be discovered later.

[heySkippy]

I will be really disappointed in the show if the kids turn up alive later on.

IMO, it would be totally in character for Erastes to have done exactly what he said he did. He was the kind of guy whose power depended on him keeping both his promises and his threats, and he had threatened Vorenus earlier to rape and murder his family. I think that's what he did.

[dcheesi]

BTW, is it just me or did they spoil the fate of the kids in the pre- Season 2 ads? I distinctly remember hearing something along the lines of ...won't bring back your wife! Or the children! in those ads (w/ Vorenus onscreen, sounded like Pullo's voice). But at that point we didn't know anything had happened to the children?! That may be why Erastes' last statement didn't have the emotional impact on me that it should have, which in turn may explain why I don't believe it...???

[Bananfish]

I believe they are dead. Why on earth would that guy lie about it knowing that he would then be killed. If they were alive, he would have taken him to them and hoped for the best.

But you can argue the converse too. If the kids were dead, but he thought he could stall Vorenus and Pullo from killing him by telling them he kids were alive, why wouldn't he tell them that he would lead them to the kids, and try to find a way to escape while he "led" them to the kids?


If you watch the scene carefully, Erastes runs out to the scene of carnage and sees Pullo standing over the carcasses of his posse. A look of resignment comes over him, and what does he do? He pours himself a glass of wine! That's the equivalent of Dennis Hopper's cigarette in True Romance - one last pleasure before he dies. Well actually second to last, because he had one other pleasure: telling Vorenus he f'ed and killed his kids (whether true or not), which he knew would have the added benefit of making Vorenus so mad that he would kill him quick (like Hopper knew slowly explaining to Christopher Walken that his ancestors were n----- would make Walken kill him quick in True Romance). After he said it, he chugs the rest of the wine, leans his head back, closes his eyes and waits for the blow that he knows is coming.

When I rewatched the scene, I changed the odds of the kids being alive from 3 to 1 to even money.

[Anubys]

Rob: history lesson, please...

I'm assuming that with the assassination, the crazy idea of allowing "commoners" to become senators was null and void...and "order" was restored...

is that true? if so, then Vorenus is out of a job...

[Rob Helmerichs]

Rob: history lesson, please...

I'm assuming that with the assassination, the crazy idea of allowing "commoners" to become senators was null and void...and "order" was restored...

is that true? if so, then Vorenus is out of a job...
Nope. Caesar doubled the number of Senators, so that half of them were his people. His intent (not made terribly clear in the show) was to effectively eliminate the Senate as a major political force. Before, divisions in the Senate had been between really rich people whose ancestors had been really rich for many generations, and really rich people whose ancestors had only been really rich for a few generations. As a result, while they would argue a lot, they still represented a fairly narrow range of interests, and could be counted on to agree in general. Caesar, by introducing much more variety into the Senate, thus created a very real split (literally 50/50) between the original 300 (the really rich Romans) and the new 300 (lower-class and provincial people).

In the aftermath of Caesar's death, to disenfranchise the new 300 would have meant that in addition to the civil war they had (really rich people fighting really rich people), they would have had an additional civil war (really rich people already fighting each other against everybody else, who had suddenly gotten a voice in government and would not have been happy to just as suddenly lose it). Thus, Caesar's plan (to divide the Senate) worked, paving the way for, well, what's going to happen this season, I assume.

The irony, by the way, is that Brutus and his co-conspirators assassinated Caesar in order to "restore the Republic." But while Caesar used the Republican political structure in, well, interesting and creativr ways, he never deviated one inch from Republican law. (In fact, he was positively Clintonian in his ability to stick to the letter of the law in order to achieve results very contrary to the spirit of the law.) His death paved the way for the fall of the Republic in every conceivable way. Brutus, in effect, stabbed the Republic in the back.

[dcheesi]

Rob: history lesson, please...

I'm assuming that with the assassination, the crazy idea of allowing "commoners" to become senators was null and void...and "order" was restored...

is that true? if so, then Vorenus is out of a job...In the context of the show, the same "amnesty" deal that allowed Brutus and his conspirators to keep their positions, and Marc Antony to keep his, also means that the new senators are allowed to keep theirs.