Upgrade Disk Drive or Not: Warranty concern

[Runch Machine]

I have added larger hard drives to dozens of standard and HD Tivos that were Directv receivers. Since Directv dropped Tivo for their new equpment I purchased a Series 3 and transferred Liftime to it from a Toshiba DVD/DVR Tivo unit.

I am finding that the 30 hours or so of HD recording isn't quite enough. One of my Directv HD Tivos has 63 hours of HD storage and the other has 130 hours of HD storage. I am comfortable doing the upgrade myself, but I am concerned about the affect on the warranty and lifetime service on the Series 3. If something breaks besides the Hard Drive on the Series 3 it would appear that I will be out of luck getting it fixed. Does anyone know if that is true? Can Tivo tell if someone has replaced the disk drive with a larger one? What if one were to reinstall the original disk drive if something else went out? Would Tivo repair the unit then?

If one voids the warranty by installing a large drive, will Tivo repair the unit and charge for the repair, or will they refuse to work on an upgraded unit?

Has anyone had any experience with getting an upgraded Tivo repaired?

[tivoupgrade]

TiVo absolutely knows when a unit has been upgraded from the moment it dials in and connects to their servers. The system configuration, and pretty much everything else that you might have wondered about is transmitted to them. At one time, many years ago, I actually saw a report that documented the number of upgraded TiVos that existed in the field.

But with that said, I don't think TiVo pays that much attention to it, and probably not within this context.

But that really isn't the issue - its really more one of ethics. If you (or I, for that matter) upgrade a unit, then the warranty is voided and regardless of what they can tell or not tell, its really not fair to ask them to uphold the warranty if anything breaks. After all, there is nothing to say that cracking open the box, touching things and putting equipment in there that was not meant to be there, isn't a contributing factor to something else failing down the road. Difficult to prove, difficult to disprove.

And, taking things to the next level... we have seen a fair number of units that are broken in ways other than the disk drive. But to be honest, its a VERY small percentage of units. So small, that I've stuck my neck out far enough to promise to TiVo (again many years ago) that I would ASSUME the warranty on any unit I upgraded on their behalf (in exchange for an endorsement). That never panned out, and really isn't the point, but the point is that a system failing in a way other than it being a disk drive, is rare in the grand scheme of things.

There ARE other resources for having units repaired, as well. We have a partner we deal with that we send units to for repair, and in most cases (actually in ALL cases other than a chip failure) they can repair the units; whether it be a bad or damaged trace on the system board, or a bad power supply. These are guys with oscilloscopes and soldering irons, and they know what they are doing.

So, if your concern is whether to upgrade your unit, I'd say 'go for it' and just do it carefully. If your concern is how to get it repaired, I'd suggest doing so in an ethical manner. I'm sure there are all sorts of other ways to "trick" all sorts of folks, but the reality of it is that as you asked, there is a way to know, and it would be wrong, anyway.

Hope that helps!

[ashu]

If only something like the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm) applied to Consumer Electronics.

My layperson's interpretation - warranty on ONLY that specific component/subsystem will be voided, that has been upgraded with an unapproved or non-OEM part. So if you upgraded your car's music system, and your battery/electronics fused - they would NOT be covered, but your powertrain warranty would be unaffected.

Although, in TiVo's defense, they're quite complicitly cool (from what I've heard - don't COUNT on this!) about warranty repairs on upgraded boxen!

[Runch Machine]

Ok, so let's say I upgrade the drive, which voids the warranty, some months or a even a couple of years goes by, and then something fails on the motherboard. Since the unit has lifetime on it, I would want to get it repaired. How much does Tivo charge to repair a Series 3? Would they refuse to repair it because of the upgrade? I am merely trying to protect the liftime service, which is connected to the receiver.

[tivoupgrade]

Ok, so let's say I upgrade the drive, which voids the warranty, some months or a even a couple of years goes by, and then something fails on the motherboard. Since the unit has lifetime on it, I would want to get it repaired. How much does Tivo charge to repair a Series 3? Would they refuse to repair it because of the upgrade? I am merely trying to protect the liftime service, which is connected to the receiver.

Its certainly a reasonable question. If I wanted to know the answer to it, I'd give them a call and ask them, especially about the first part.

If history is any indication, there was a day that you could send in a Series2 for "repair" for about $100; I don't remember the exact amount. They would not physically repair the specific box in question - they would replace it with a refurbished one, and transfer the lifetime subscription to the refurbished box. And it was not TiVo who performed the repair - there are partner companies that handle that sort of thing - all the major CE vendors have relationships with outfits like that.

If a service were offered to provide repairs for $, I doubt they would refuse to do it on the basis that you upgraded the unit.

Again, this is all speculation.

Curious... you appear to be particularly worried and this is sort of an "old" question -- I know your Series3 was an expensive investment, but people have been dealing with this issue for quite some time now - remember, six years ago, a 30 hour TiVo was about $900; and two years ago, the HR10-250 was $1000 and I don't think your concern has shown any indication of widespread problems, yet (if the posts on these forums are any indication)...


... so I guess what I'm saying is that if you are worried about it, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Then again, if you are consumed by it, don't do anything you are particularly uncomfortable with, either!

[Runch Machine]

I paid $900 for my first HD Tivo from Directv. I wasn't worried about it because I knew that if something happened to it I could put the original drive back in it and Directv would send me a new one for free. They want to keep customers and free repairs is part of the deal, even out of warranty. Though mine never failed, I've had others go out and Directv replaced them out of warranty at no charge.

Tivo only makes money by selling equipment and the monthly subscription. Since I transfered lifietime to the Series 3, they are done earning revenue from me. If the Series 3 breaks, they could say that they don't want to fix it so I'd have to buy another one and pay the monthly fee.

I really don't expect any problems as far as the receiver goes. Like you said, failures other than the disk drive are exceedingly rare. I am very good at upgrading and even used Rbatchs utilities on my DirecTivos to add Caller ID and other features. I'm just not sure if I want to modify the Series 3 by installing an larger hard drive. I wish they'd activate the ability to attach an external drive already.

My HR10-250s have your drive brackets in them. I really like them. I've owned 3 HR10-250s and upgraded them all. I've done the same for my Brothers' HD Tivos. I've sold one of mine on Ebay and may not stay with Directv in the future. It depends what happens with HD channels. Truthfully, 99% of what I watch is from the OTA channels. Until the Series 3 came out I felt like I was paying $50+ each month just to use the Directv HD Tivo to record local channels from my TV antenna. Now that the Series 3 is here, my future with Directv is somewhat in doubt.

[Derek Nickel]

I received my S3 on 9/20 and I friend asked if I got an Extended Warranty. "Extended Warranty?", I said, "I plan on voiding the warrenty!"

So, I agree that while 30 hours of HD is pretty good, isn't quite enough. I'm use to 60+ hours. I like to record shows and not worry that the DVR will fill up and I'll lose something. For example, last year I recorded the first 10 episodes of Smallville before I watched a single one becase I just wasn't into it at the time. But I certainly didn't want to lose them either.

So I just replaced my HD wtih a 750GB drive. I do recommend giving the TiVo some breaking-in time before grading it, though.

[Bierboy]

Wait 90 days, then updgrade. That's what I did; and I'm pleased as punch.

[hookbill]

eSATA. eSATA. This is what we need. I have a 3 year warranty and don't want to void it.

[wbradney]

I'd say go for it. I got my S3 on day one and after about a week the original hard drive started to fail (video stutter on playback, reboots, etc). I considered returning it for repair/replacement but just couldn't stand the idea of two weeks or so without TiVo, so I decided to upgrade to a 500GB drive and eat the cost of the orginal 250GB drive (probably only about $100 anyway).

[ashu]

I'd say go for it. I got my S3 on day one and after about a week the original hard drive started to fail (video stutter on playback, reboots, etc). I considered returning it for repair/replacement but just couldn't stand the idea of two weeks or so without TiVo, so I decided to upgrade to a 500GB drive and eat the cost of the orginal 250GB drive (probably only about $100 anyway).

Even less than $100 :)

Although I'm too cheap to do that - I plan on using my 250 in a PC within a day or two (testing the new drive) after I upgrade. When I upgrade.

[phox_mulder]

I popped a 500gb drive in mine before I even turned it on for the first time.

No regrets.


phox

[btwyx]

I popped the upgrade in mine only a day after I turned it on. I only waited that long because I had to wait for the upgrades to actually be available.

[George Cifranci]

I popped in my 750GB Weaknees upgrade before even powering it up for the first time. :D

[susani8]

I love techno things, but haven't put the time or effort into learning a lot about programming / upgrading end. Reading the sticky on adding / swapping out a harddrive gave me sweaty knees. That's why the esata really appeals to me - plug and play is really my level.

I'm being optimistic and believe that CL will approve esata drives any day now... however, being a complete ignoramus when it comes to this stuff - can you daisy chain esata drives like you can USB items? I notice that you can pick up 2 250 GB esata drives for less than one 500 GB esata drive. Could the two 250s be joined and hooked into the esata port (once the port is active)?

Thanks for the tech help!

[SCSIRAID]

I love techno things, but haven't put the time or effort into learning a lot about programming / upgrading end. Reading the sticky on adding / swapping out a harddrive gave me sweaty knees. That's why the esata really appeals to me - plug and play is really my level.

I'm being optimistic and believe that CL will approve esata drives any day now... however, being a complete ignoramus when it comes to this stuff - can you daisy chain esata drives like you can USB items? I notice that you can pick up 2 250 GB esata drives for less than one 500 GB esata drive. Could the two 250s be joined and hooked into the esata port (once the port is active)?

Thanks for the tech help!

You cant daisy chain them. There is a part called a port multiplier that will allow more than one drive to be attached to a single SATA link but you need software support for it. I wouldnt count on that support though.

[susani8]

You cant daisy chain them. There is a part called a port multiplier that will allow more than one drive to be attached to a single SATA link but you need software support for it. I wouldnt count on that support though.


--------------------------


I have to admit I was kind of expecting that - nothing could be that easy. If it needs software support to work, there'd be no way (easy way) to install the software on the tivo to encourage it to accept and read more than one external drive - oh well. I'll save my pennies and when the esata port is finally activated, I'll pick up the 500 or 750 gb drive (doesn't make much sense to go smaller than that if I'm going to go to the effort of upgrading it at all!)

[haysdb]

But that really isn't the issue - its really more one of ethics. If you (or I, for that matter) upgrade a unit, then the warranty is voided and regardless of what they can tell or not tell, its really not fair to ask them to uphold the warranty if anything breaks. After all, there is nothing to say that cracking open the box, touching things and putting equipment in there that was not meant to be there, isn't a contributing factor to something else failing down the road. Difficult to prove, difficult to disprove. If I replace a hard drive, which is really no big deal, and don't do anything dumb while I'm inside the box, and then something pretty obviously unrelated to the hard drive (meaning basically anything else inside the box outside of the drive controller) fails, I would expect Tivo to honor the warranty. If what I did clearly had nothing to do with the failure, than the warrantee should still be in effect. I believe there is considerable precedent for this. If you put a new exhaust on your car and the engine fails, it's not likely that the exhaust CAUSED the engine failure, and the courts have upheld this and forced automakers to honor warrantees. I don't see it as being unethical at all to ask Tivo to honor a warrantee on an upgraded unit, particularly if the failure happens long after the upgrade. If an upgrade damages anything, it should be apparent pretty soon after the upgrade. At that point the owner should take responsibility for their own actions and PAY to have the unit repaired.

Now IN THE REAL WORLD, it doesn't always (or even often) work that way... :-)

I would put the original hard drive back in the box AFTER THE FAILURE, simply because I might not get MY hard drive back, since they may just do a module exchange rather than giving you back YOUR particular unit. Maybe Tivo doesn't do that and you would get your hard drive back, but then again maybe you won't.

As an aside, a ReplayTV that my ex-wife now has, has failed twice since ReplayTV disaappeared from the scene, most recently just a couple of months ago. She was still able to get it repaired. It's hard to imagine anything short of total destruction that would make it impossible to repair a DVR. It might not make economic sense to do so, but it can be fixed, even if all they don't replace is the serial number. :)

[Indyracing]

Is it really as simple as popping in another (larger) drive or does it have to be prepped in any way? What about the TIVO software? Can I transfer my shows to the new drive? What is the upgrade procedure for the S3?

Thanks

[ashu]

Does the search here work? Did you try "Upgrading S3" or Upgrade S3 HD TiVo" or something similar?
:D

[Bierboy]

Is it really as simple as popping in another (larger) drive or does it have to be prepped in any way? What about the TIVO software? Can I transfer my shows to the new drive? What is the upgrade procedure for the S3?

ThanksDepends how much you wanna pay. WeaKnees has preformatted drives that you can just drop in, but you lose your saved recordings. Everything else (settings) is fine. After discounts, I upgraded my S3 to the 750GB preformatted for $440.

The other, less expensive way is to format a bare drive yourself, and, as ahsu says, use search to find more information.

[ashu]

Since everyone's making me look like a grinch for suggesting he use Search, here's a link to the Series 3 Upgrade (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316327) thread :)

[AbMagFab]

It takes all of about 15 minutes to do it yourself, and is pretty much zero risk. If you can open a PC and pop a hard drive in, I'd suggest saving the $100 and doing it yourself.

[Toeside]

Since everyone's making me look like a grinch for suggesting he use Search, here's a link to the Series 3 Upgrade (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316327) thread :)

You are such a jerk, Ashu. Attacking another member for not using search. I can't believe you!

:D

;)

[haysdb]

Here are four methods I've seen discussed: Bumwine (http://www.bumwine.com/tivo.html)
Weaknees (http://tivo.upgrade-instructions.com/index.php)
MFSLive (http://www.mfslive.org/) Hinsdale - has fallen out of favor because it's more complicated than the other methodsI haven't used any of them myself, but will be trying to Bumwine method as soon as my new drive arrives. I'm not set in concrete, but that one looked the simplest to me, and has been spoken of highly around here.