Why did Tivo get rid of the For Life option? [Text View]

mattack

01-03-2007, 09:47 PM

Just when I wanted to purchase the lifetime subscription they don't offer it anymore, why? Sorry if this ? has been asked before.

BTW, it's been gone for quite a while.

Also, if you have lifetime on any series 1s or series 2s you have, you can, through January 31, 2007, "transfer" lifetime to a newly purchased series 3 for $200. (Your old box gets 'free' service for a year too.) This has made quite a lot of us get S3s before we would have otherwise (IMHO). I don't even have an HDTV but the lifetime transfer option caused me to get an S3 which is on its way to me from Amazon.. (though I am wondering if I should leave it unopened until closer to the end of Jan in case another good price deal comes out.)

see www.tivo.com/vip for more info.

chrishicks

01-03-2007, 09:59 PM

In other other words, it costs them to continue service those boxes, and it was beginning to hurt.

now if by some miracle they brought Lifetime for the price of say 599.00 while continuing to offer the boxes at the current pricing do you think that could work for them?

Monty2_2001

01-03-2007, 10:15 PM

now if by some miracle they brought Lifetime for the price of say 599.00 while continuing to offer the boxes at the current pricing do you think that could work for them?

Do you really expect to use a S3 for over 3 years? I don't. By then it'll be obsolete. You really need to plan on using it a long long time to make lifetime worth it.

I plan on upgrading every 3 years or so, so I'll use monthly.

chrishicks

01-03-2007, 10:24 PM

Do you really expect to use a S3 for over 3 years? I don't. By then it'll be obsolete. You really need to plan on using it a long long time to make lifetime worth it.

I plan on upgrading every 3 years or so, so I'll use monthly.

I actually plan on using it for however long it will last. I don't really see a need for myself to upgrade in 3yrs. because it will be obsolete. I still use my DirecTV Tivos and those have been going for around 4yrs now. my 57" 57HX93 Toshiba Cinema Series tv became obsolete within a very short time but I didn't upgrade that yet either. I am starting to go with a new motto - "if it still works for what I need it stays".

r11roadster

01-03-2007, 11:05 PM

I just retired my 6+yo S1 to get a S3. that lifetime more than paid for it's self.

jfh3

01-03-2007, 11:49 PM

To answer the OP's question - March of 2006 and then April for good.

timckelley

01-03-2007, 11:51 PM

To answer the OP's question - March of 2006 and then April for good.

Her question was 'why', not 'when'.

magnus

01-03-2007, 11:57 PM

You can still get lifetime on Humax Tivos that have not been previously activated.

Just when I wanted to purchase the lifetime subscription they don't offer it anymore, why? Sorry if this ? has been asked before.

pdhenry

01-04-2007, 06:41 AM

You can still get lifetime on Humax Tivos that have not been previously activated.Only the DVD recorder ones.

bkc56

01-04-2007, 02:51 PM

Do you really expect to use a S3 for over 3 years?
My two Series 1 units came on line 9/00 and 8/02. That's more than 3 years for each and they're still doing just what I purchased them for (ie, they aren't obsolete for me).

Lifetime on each of those has been a good choice in hindsight.

mattack

01-04-2007, 11:01 PM

Do you really expect to use a S3 for over 3 years? I don't. By then it'll be obsolete. You really need to plan on using it a long long time to make lifetime worth it.

I got my original series 1 a bit after the lifetime price went from $200 to $250. I don't remember when that was. (But the price increase IS what made me seriously start looking into actually getting one.. then it was delayed since I was trying to bid on cheap ones, there weren't great deals in stores at the time.)

It's still working. I got a second one later as a "broken" one on ebay and fixed it. The only problem is that the IR board on one of them is getting pretty darn flaky (enough that I often am unplugging them and switching IR boards and powering back up).. But I'll get a new IR board on ebay or something.

I expect to use an S3 for MUCH longer than 3 years, esp if my price ends up being close to $900 total including taxes and everything.

magnus

01-05-2007, 12:14 AM

It seems to work for a T800. :-)

Only the DVD recorder ones.

cwerdna

01-05-2007, 02:43 AM

TivoPony's official response:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3844463#post3844463

jakerock

01-05-2007, 08:23 AM

They get a small percentage of the ad revenue generated by posts on this site. They got rid of life time to spur a never ending amount of threads asking about lifetime cancellation, how, why, when and who. This was so successful they changed the pricing structure to something guaranteed to generate an exponentially higher amount of posts.

:)

There is some speculation that this new revenue stream will actually allow them to stop charging for the service altogether. However, this is pure speculation, not the early morning ramblings of a sarcastic poster trying to be funny.

jfh3

01-05-2007, 08:32 PM

Her question was 'why', not 'when'.

Sorry - Tivo got rid of lifetime because it was a great deal for the subscribers, but terrible for the company. Tivo originally expected boxes with lifetime to last about 3-4 years before a sub moved to a new box and recognized revenue over 48 months.

After 48 months, lifetime boxes are a drag on the bottom line and the far more boxes were in service past that time that Tivo ever planned for.

killzone

01-06-2007, 12:51 PM

I have 2 series 1's with lifetime. One is grandfathered and the other I paid $100 for the lifetime. Since I've used them for over 6 years I've definitely gotten my moneys worth out of them.

That being said, I think their new pricing model looks to me like it prices them out of the market. For one thing charging for guide information doesn't seem right since they could use zap2it which is free.

As an alternative you could set up a MythTV box and get free guide information for a 1 time cost of the hardware. I have 2 retired pc's sitting in the attic that are more than capable of running MythTV (or Windows HME or Vista).

The next comparison is with satellite, which is where I fall in. There are some channels that are only available to me via satellite so I'm stuck with it for now. A dish DVR costs about $400 and you get a 2 tuner, 300G hard drive unit and the monthly fee is either $5.95 or free if you subscribe to their everything pack.

Granted the interfaces aren't quite as easy as Tivo's, but even after using Tivo's exclusively for 6 years, it only took me a day to get used to the new DVR. The menus come up instantly, navigation is instantaneous. Compared to the series 1's that I have ,and it pains me to say it, the dish DVR is better.

Am I missing something here? $400-$600 for a Series 3 + $299 for 3 years of service OR $200+$230(lifetime box value) for a lifetime transfer, seems a bit expensive considering the alternatives.

Back when the Tivo's first came out, I gladly paid $699 + $199 for lifetime for my first box, since there were no other alternatives (replay was pretty much the same cost). Now however there are a LOT of very good working alternatives. I just don't understand this pricing.

MasterOfPuppets

01-06-2007, 01:40 PM

My personal favorite analysis of Tivo's new pricing structure is here (http://www.tivoblog.com/archives/2006/11/05/tivo-raises-rates-what-are-they-thinking/) ...
Personally, I think that Tivo should be doing something similar to what Sirius does...offer a "lifetime" subscription (in Sirius' case for $500) that you can transfer up to 3 times (in Sirius' case for $75 a pop). Maybe Tivo could raise the cost of a transfer since people don't get a new Tivo as often as they'd get a new Sirius receiver. And this way Tivo could at least pretend to be a customer-friendly (or at least slightly less greedy) company...and quit slapping advertisements EVERYWHERE.

vman41

01-06-2007, 01:43 PM

vman41

01-06-2007, 01:51 PM

After 48 months, lifetime boxes are a drag on the bottom line and the far more boxes were in service past that time that Tivo ever planned for.

They were doing a Ponzi scheme, counting on subscription growth to be fast enough to subsidize the ancient units without any pain.

classicsat

01-06-2007, 02:21 PM

For one thing charging for guide information doesn't seem right since they could use zap2it which is free.

Need I say this again? TiVo does use Zap2It, in a fashion. The nature of at least the way they use it requires Tivo pay for that access.

Those "devices" that use Zap2iT for free require you to sign up to Zap2it yourself, and every three months fill out an online questionaire, and said device pulling the data from the Zap2It servers. TiVo does that work all for you, in that they directly buy the guide service and process it so the TiVos don't have to, as mush.

As an alternative you could set up a MythTV box and get free guide information for a 1 time cost of the hardware. I have 2 retired pc's sitting in the attic that are more than capable of running MythTV (or Windows HME or Vista).

For the typical target consumer, a MythTV box (or most any PC based DVR for that matter) is too sophisticated, plus draw more power, and create more heat and nose than a TiVo box typically does.

The next comparison is with satellite, which is where I fall in. There are some channels that are only available to me via satellite so I'm stuck with it for now. A dish DVR costs about $400 and you get a 2 tuner, 300G hard drive unit and the monthly fee is either $5.95 or free if you subscribe to their everything pack.

Nothing stopping you using TiVo with satellite. And they can offer you that price for service, becasue they already have the guide data, don't have servers or other infrastucture that the DVR needs to work, and they make their money off the programming anyway.

Am I missing something here? $400-$600 for a Series 3 + $299 for 3 years of service OR $200+$230(lifetime box value) for a lifetime transfer, seems a bit expensive considering the alternatives.
[quote]
It is TiVo after all. And, for noew, the Series 3 is considered a premium product.

Now however there are a LOT of very good working alternatives.

I'd like to know of the non PC "appliance class" standalone DVRs that TiVo falls in.

I just don't understand this pricing.
It i there to make it easier for new subs.

killzone

01-06-2007, 03:52 PM

Need I say this again? TiVo does use Zap2It, in a fashion. The nature of at least the way they use it requires Tivo pay for that access.

Those "devices" that use Zap2iT for free require you to sign up to Zap2it yourself, and every three months fill out an online questionaire, and said device pulling the data from the Zap2It servers. TiVo does that work all for you, in that they directly buy the guide service and process it so the TiVos don't have to, as mush.

Well, they are charging a pretty significant amount for doing the equivalent of filling out a survey every 3 months.

For the typical target consumer, a MythTV box (or most any PC based DVR for that matter) is too sophisticated, plus draw more power, and create more heat and noise than a TiVo box typically does.

A Tivo box is more sophisticated than what the typical consumer can put together as well, but Tivo puts it together for you. The same could be done with a MythTV box and then you don't have these ongoing monthly fees.

Nothing stopping you using TiVo with satellite.

Your not going to get HD quality if you hook a Series 3 up to satellite. That put it out of contention for me.

And they can offer you that price for service, because they already have the guide data, don't have servers or other infrastucture that the DVR needs to work, and they make their money off the programming anyway.

Understood, but it is a direct competitor to Tivo. $400 + $5.95 (or free) monthly fee, compared to $799 + ( ($299 every 3 years) or ($450 for lifetime transfer)). That doesn't sound very competitive to me if satellite is an option. If I was stuck on cable I probably would have bought a box and transfered my grandfathered sub over. Thats obviously not an option for most people.

Need I also mention that with the Satellite DVR's (be it E* or D*) you don't need to pay for an extra access card to have access to 2 tuners?

jfh3

01-06-2007, 04:07 PM

Well, they are charging a pretty significant amount for doing the equivalent of filling out a survey every 3 months.

That's because it's just more than the guide data - Tivo processes the guide data to add additional fields/data for searches, suggestions, etc.

And you are paying for updates and service improvements with your service subscription, not just guide data.

jfh3

01-06-2007, 04:08 PM

Need I also mention that with the Satellite DVR's (be it E* or D*) you don't need to pay for an extra access card to have access to 2 tuners?

Only for a few more months. :)

morac

01-06-2007, 04:23 PM

You have to realize in the ten years since TiVo has been founded it has yet to make a profit. The new pricing schemes are one of the ways to offset the loss of TiVo's DirecTV partnership and keep TiVo from sinking even further into the red.

That said, it only helps TiVo if driving the price up and removing lifetime as an option doesn't drive away customers, otherwise...

killzone

01-06-2007, 04:32 PM

That's because it's just more than the guide data - Tivo processes the guide data to add additional fields/data for searches, suggestions, etc.

I know, they have to make money somewhere.

And you are paying for updates and service improvements with your service subscription, not just guide data.

I haven't received a software or service update in well over 3 years on my series 1. If I were paying monthly on that I'd basically be paying for a few additional fields on otherwise available free guide data.

The only reasonable deals on Tivo's that I see now are for the series 2 where you basically get it for free when you buy 3 years of service.

Series 3 for $799 + $450 or ongoing fees, compared to $400 for satellite DVR's (or less if you lease). I couldn't justify that to myself, let alone my wife. I can't imagine they are flying off the shelves with that kind of pricing.

Just to put this in perspective. At work I usually go to lunch with a group of 6 other people. We all have had tivo's for at least 4 years some of us like me for 6. We've all since made the jump to HDTV but NONE of us went with a series 3 Tivo. We've talked about it, did our usual discussions and arguments, but the bottom line is their pricing is out of line with the rest of the industry. Basically we have come to the conclusion that whatever premium and ease of use features Tivo offers over the E*,Cable,D* is not enough to warrant the hefty price premium. We are all early adopters and we all spend way too much on electronic toys, so I can't imagine that if we all feel this way that the average joe is going to be jonesing for a series 3 for $799+.

cwerdna

01-06-2007, 04:38 PM

Morac is incorrect about Tivo never making a profit yet. They had a barely profitable quarter at http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=172095. I don't recall if there were any others.

I know, they have to make money somewhere.

I haven't received a software or service update in well over 3 years on my series 1. If I were paying monthly on that I'd basically be paying for a few additional fields on otherwise available free guide data.

The guide data isn't free. Do you really think that TiVo gets it for free from Tribune Media Services? Beyond that, TiVo presumably has to process it and break it up into chunks for distribution so they only send out the data for channels you receive in your area vs. ALL the channels for the entire US.

Since you have a Series 1, do you think that running the servers and paying for the dialup access is free? (they were using UUNet dialups that last time I checked)

killzone

01-06-2007, 04:44 PM

Morac is incorrect about Tivo never making a profit yet. They had a barely profitable quarter at http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=172095. I don't recall if there were any others.

The guide data isn't free. Do you really think that TiVo gets it for free from Tribune Media Services? Beyond that, TiVo presumably has to process it and break it up into chunks for distribution so they only send out the data for channels you receive in your area vs. ALL the channels for the entire US.

You missed the comparison in previous posts to zap2it which is free.

Since you have a Series 1, do you think that running the servers and paying for the dialup access is free? (they were using UUNet dialups that last time I checked)
I've been using turbonet cards since they first came out. My daily connections to them is certainly not decreasing their profits by much.

NowPlaying

01-06-2007, 05:14 PM

1. I love TiVo
2. I hate monthly bills

When I purchased my Series 2 I also bought a lifetime subscription. If I had to pay a monthly bill I would never have bought a TiVo and wouldn't know what I am missing.

I purchased a Series 2 as a gift for my mother. I also bought her a lifetime subscription. I would NEVER give her a gift that comes with monthly fees. Even paying a year or two up front doesn't cut it.

My girlfriend recently moved in and came with a Series 2 that was on the monthly plan. We just replaced it with a Series 1 (with lifetime) that a friend gave me. If lifetime service was still available we would have purchased it for her box. Instead it is going in the closet. Tivo just lost a $299.00 sale.

I have been waiting for the Series 3 and would purchase one for a fair price. $599.00 (box) + $299.00 (service) is what I expect to pay. Tivo's offering of $799.99 (box) +$249.00 (my service) + $199.00 (transfer fee) is just too much for me.

Comcast will lease a DVR for $5.00 a month. (Granted it is not as good as a Tivo.) If it has a problem they will swap you for a new one. The Tivo $1250.00 plan leaves you on your own.

Unless Tivo changes their pricing my next box with be a Freevo type box. HD cablecard tuners are coming out with the release of Vista. Tivo better do something before Dell starts offering cheap home media PC's.

I understand the appeal of dinging peoples credit cards every month. Nice income stream but poor long term plan. Tivo needs to be a software company like Microsoft. I don't even know how many copies of Windows I've purchased over the years. Microsoft doesn't care that I am running Win95 on an old laptop because I just purchased a copy of XP for my new desktop.

Tivo sell me your software...sell me your add-ons...sell me your upgrades, but build the service into the price and let me keep it as long as I want.

morac

01-06-2007, 06:00 PM

Morac is incorrect about Tivo never making a profit yet. They had a barely profitable quarter at http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=172095. I don't recall if there were any others.
A profitable quarter is different than making a profit. If you lose $1000 dollars for 11 months in a row and then gain $200 dollars in the 12th month, you don't suddenly have a profit. You're still down $900.

TiVo is still in the red overall.

cwerdna

01-06-2007, 07:29 PM

You missed the comparison in previous posts to zap2it which is free.

Zap2it is run by Tribune Media Services, the same company who supplies guide data to TiVo and other companies.

Have you read their terms of service at http://www.zap2it.com/services/site/zap-termsofservice,0,7891102.story? There are some key points in it.

"You may use the Content online only, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use, and you may download or print a single copy of any portion of the Content solely for your personal, non-commercial use...

You may not, for example, republish any portion of the Content on any Internet, Intranet or extranet site or incorporate the Content in any database, compilation, archive or cache. You may not distribute any Content to others, whether or not for payment or other consideration, and you may not modify, copy, frame, cache, reproduce, sell, publish, transmit, display or otherwise use any portion of the Content....

You agree... not to use any data mining, data gathering or extraction method."

Given all of the above? Do you think the guide data is provided free to TiVo by TMS? If TiVo (or some other PVR company) were to go through trouble of adapting Zap2It's data to work w/their PVRs w/o paying TMS, where do you think that would put them legally?

killzone

01-06-2007, 07:39 PM

Zap2it is run by Tribune Media Services, the same company who supplies guide data to TiVo and other companies.

Have you read their terms of service at http://www.zap2it.com/services/site/zap-termsofservice,0,7891102.story? There are some key points in it.

"You may use the Content online only, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use, and you may download or print a single copy of any portion of the Content solely for your personal, non-commercial use...

You may not, for example, republish any portion of the Content on any Internet, Intranet or extranet site or incorporate the Content in any database, compilation, archive or cache. You may not distribute any Content to others, whether or not for payment or other consideration, and you may not modify, copy, frame, cache, reproduce, sell, publish, transmit, display or otherwise use any portion of the Content....

You agree... not to use any data mining, data gathering or extraction method."

Given all of the above? Do you think the guide data is provided free to TiVo by TMS? If TiVo (or some other PVR company) were to go through trouble of adapting Zap2It's data to work w/their PVRs w/o paying TMS, where do you think that would put them legally?

Like I said, go back and read the previous posts.

This issue came up with respect to mythTV. If I the consumer can set up a mythTV, XP HME, or Vista box and receive free schedule information, Tivo has to be providing 2 things. 1) Something signficantly better such that I'm willing to pay, 2) Non outrageous fees. Free is free, so whatever they charge will be more, but they have to keep it reasonable. $19.95 a month is NOT reasonable.

cwerdna

01-06-2007, 07:49 PM

Like I said, go back and read the previous posts.

This issue came up with respect to mythTV. If I the consumer can set up a mythTV, XP HME, or Vista box and receive free schedule information, Tivo has to be providing 2 things. 1) Something signficantly better such that I'm willing to pay, 2) Non outrageous fees. Free is free, so whatever they charge will be more, but they have to keep it reasonable. $19.95 a month is NOT reasonable.
My parents would have no clue how to setup a PC w/Myth TV nor do they have an extra PC. WinXP MCE and Vista aren't free, but it's back to the PC problem (also not free) and they have no tuner cards. They wouldn't have a clue as to how to maintain it either. They as it is can barely use their Windows PC to surf the net and do email. They require lengthy explanations for them to understand stuff like like their my.yahoo.com stock portfolio is stored on Yahoo's servers, the login process, and cookies. They get confused between Netscape Navigator (which they used to use to surf and as a POP mail client) vs. netscape.com's web based mail (now AOL) which they never had an account on.

The Series 1 TiVo I loaned.... errr.. gave them is just fine for their needs.

Agreed re: $19.95 being too high. I'm not paying that. All my standalones have lifetime and I'm paying $6/mo for my DirecTiVo. Per http://www.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.1.asp, if you prepay 3 years, it comes out to $8.31/mo.

edit: Ok, I stumbled across http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Setup_Zap2It/XMLTV_for_MythTV and http://labs.zap2it.com/ now, but it's only allowed legally for "non-commercial, personal use only."

01-06-2007, 08:14 PM

$19.95 a month is NOT reasonable.

$19.95 includes a free ST box. Lower rates are available.

killzone

01-06-2007, 08:23 PM

My parents would have no clue how to setup a PC w/Myth TV nor do they have an extra PC. WinXP MCE and Vista aren't free, but it's back to the PC problem (also not free) and they have no tuner cards. They wouldn't have a clue as to how to maintain it either. They as it is can barely use their Windows PC to surf the net and do email.

My 4 year old still has to show my mom how to use our Tivos. Given a box with Myth TV or whatever set up on it I'm sure my 4 year old could figure out how to use it.

The hardware might not be free, but you don't exactly need a dual core to run mythTV. You will need tuners of course. At this point in time you are talking about an expense of around $1100 to get a Series 3 with 3 years of service. That gives you a LOT of leeway in terms of hardware. I threw a core 2 duo pc together with all premium componants for a lot less than that.

I understand Tivo needs to make money, but their not going to do that if they can't attract new customers and they chase away old ones with their new pricing models.

killzone

01-06-2007, 08:29 PM

$19.95 includes a free ST box. Lower rates are available.

They have some decent deals on the series 2, but SD is a dying technology so I don't think they are going to be flying off the shelves.

Einselen

01-06-2007, 08:37 PM

At this point in time you are talking about an expense of around $1100 to get a Series 3 with 3 years of service. That gives you a LOT of leeway in terms of hardware. I threw a core 2 duo pc together with all premium componants for a lot less than that.

That is stating you buy the S3 at a price of $799 which would be stupid as you can find it for around $620 which comes out to $663.40 after 7% tax. For $1100 you can get a S3, probably find a lifetime Tivo for say $300 (varies, I have not looked at lifetime eBay market recently) and pay to transfer lifetime at $199 and then not worry about fees.

The problem I have with creating your own PC DVR is that you have to have a computer near or part of your entertainment system, it is running Microsoft and I feel it is an overkill. The computer can do so many more things then just record TV that I would feel bad buying it and not using it for its full potential and maybe that is just me. Also I have personally been turned of to tuner cards in the PC because I have seen my friends' picture from TV tuner cards and it is not that great. Granted they have older cards and technology has progressed but that initial experience has turned me off some.

Added
The PC DVR vs. Tivo I feel is like the PSP vs. DS. PSP has so many extra things it can do it takes away from its initial purpose, playing video games where the DS is a dedicated device which tackles that sole purpose with perfection. Tivo is like the DS as that is all it is made to do (for the most part) of recording TV.

killzone

01-06-2007, 08:50 PM

That is stating you buy the S3 at a price of $799 which would be stupid as you can find it for around $620 which comes out to $663.40 after 7% tax. For $1100 you can get a S3, probably find a lifetime Tivo for say $300 (varies, I have not looked at lifetime eBay market recently) and pay to transfer lifetime at $199 and then not worry about fees.

S1 or S2 with lifetime are selling for around $230 so you need to add that to the cost. Even if you have one, it's worth $230 so it's still a cost.

The problem I have with creating your own PC DVR is that you have to have a computer near or part of your entertainment system, it is running Microsoft and I feel it is an overkill.

mythTV runs on linux... just like a Tivo does. Either way a Tivo is a PC. You can set up a low profile pc that is aproximately the same size as a Tivo. You don't even have to keep the keyboard attached. They now have HD tuner cards and the quality is fine.

The DVR landscape has changed a lot from 1999. They can't just charge whatever they please and expect to grow their userbase. There is lower cost competition. If you forget about mythTV and such, even the E* and D* DVR's are good and significantly cheaper.

Einselen

01-06-2007, 08:52 PM

S1 or S2 with lifetime are selling for around $230 so you need to add that to the cost. Even if you have one, it's worth $230 so it's still a cost.

I did factor that as a cost. For a total of $1100 you can get a S3 with lifetime plus a free year on whatever Tivo you pick up on eBay.

Sherminator

01-07-2007, 02:22 PM

I suppose that TiVo could bump up the retail price of the unit & limit it to VCR like recordings, with an option to use the Zap2It TVGuide.

That would leave the user:
Needing to fill in the survey every three months.
Going thru the hassle of writing (or googling then downloading) a script which will unlock the epg gathering for your TiVo.
But it would create two different markets for TiVo Inc. The technophobe market for which the original Tivo is ideal for, and the geek which hacks or mods everything that he get his hands on.

Einselen

01-07-2007, 02:26 PM

Sherminator

01-07-2007, 03:02 PM

It works with my Mac Widget (Free) (http://www.monkeybusinesslabs.com/software-tvtracker.html), and my PC's ATI TV Tuner card, both of which required a certificate code to be able to get the listing in a form that can be manipulated.

Software EPG's & PC Tuner cards can get Zap2It's data for free providing that the author is not charging for the ability.

Einselen

01-07-2007, 03:27 PM

GoHokies!

01-07-2007, 03:58 PM

mythTV runs on linux... just like a Tivo does. Either way a Tivo is a PC. You can set up a low profile pc that is aproximately the same size as a Tivo. You don't even have to keep the keyboard attached. They now have HD tuner cards and the quality is fine.

Not that can work with Cable Cards, so if you want to record ESPN-HD or TNT-HD or whatever, you're SOL. Plus you have to spend the time doing the maintenance keeping your computer updated (anti-virus and the like) and the hassle of troubleshooting it when it quits working. I'll gladly pay Tivo $6.95 to worry about all of that, plus you get upgrades that give you more features rolled into that price.

even the E* and D* DVR's are good and significantly cheaper.

I've not heard good things about the D* non-Tivo DVRs. E* is about to have all of their DVRs shut down for willfully infringing Tivo's patents (exactly the kind of company I want to do business with!).

Tivo charges what they feel the market will bear, and what the need to try and cover their expenses. Only time will tell if they are right.

Sherminator

01-07-2007, 04:50 PM

Odd as that is against Zap2Its TOS.Take a look at: http://labs.zap2it.com.

You will have to create an account to get further than the front page, but Zap2It does release the guide data in XML form for third parties to access, manipulate and database for non-commercial use.

Failing Zap2It, there's also TitanTV

CharlesH

01-08-2007, 01:26 PM

I'm not sure, but doesn't Zap2It offer varying amounts of information about programs, depending on your arrangements with them? For example, TiVo uses series and individual program ids to determine what is on when, so that it can track changes of time or special showings, determine what is a rerun, etc., without having to try to do pattern matches on the title or descriptions, plus additional actor info and such for use by suggestions. Does the free version have all that info?

classicsat

01-08-2007, 01:42 PM

They have some decent deals on the series 2, but SD is a dying technology so I don't think they are going to be flying off the shelves.

Series 2 is alive and well, for those with satellite or no intention to get the Series 3.

mythTV runs on linux... just like a Tivo does. Either way a Tivo is a PC.

A TiVo is not a PC, but a speciallized computer made to record TV, and as such its Linux is too, and built to run, ot of the box on its specific hardware. A PC OS typically takes some configuring to get workong right, plus is over powered for the relatively simple task of recording TV.

I suppose that TiVo could bump up the retail price of the unit & limit it to VCR like recordings, with an option to use the Zap2It TVGuide.

They could have, but the market they want generally aren't sophisticated enough for that to be economically viable.

The free version of Zap2it that MythTV and other PC DVR apps use has pretty well the same data TiVo gets, it is just that in Tivo's situation, they have to pay for it. FWIW, thise PC DVR software use a purpose built backdoor called Datadirect, which is what the account, certificiate, and quarterly surveys are for, as Sherminator stated.

killzone

01-08-2007, 11:08 PM

Series 2 is alive and well, for those with satellite or no intention to get the Series 3.

The series 1 and 2 were great while they lasted, but HDTV is hitting the main stream now. My local stores don't even carry CRT's.

Watching even SD satellite on a S1 or S2 is almost (not quite but it is significant) as much of a drop in quality as HD is to satellite.

A TiVo is not a PC, but a speciallized computer made to record TV, and as such its Linux is too, and built to run, ot of the box on its specific hardware. A PC OS typically takes some configuring to get workong right, plus is over powered for the relatively simple task of recording TV.

Semantics :) I referred to the Tivo as PC to infer that anyone willing to put a Tivo in their bedroom or family room, shouldn't have a problem putting an equally sized HTPC , or whatever you wish to call it, in the same place.

kjmcdonald

01-10-2007, 12:27 PM

I know many hava problem with the new commitments, but it might be something we'll all have to get used to.

Verizon FIOS TV service is rolling out in many areas, and it is coming with commitments. Also It's regular DVR is $12.95/month, but it's MRV DVR is $19.95 (x2 at least since you need 2 to multiroom view.) Some of it's other prices are less than the Cable Company in my area, but when the CC is forced to match prices in those areas, I'm willing to bet they'll raise them in areas like the DVR's that Verizon is charging more.

Tivo's new Total cost of ownership is lower than before in most cases.. (The maths been done over and over, I don't have a link but it's not hard to find.) And lower than Verizon's in almost all case too. Granted you don't have to buy the box from verizon, but you don't own the box either.

The only thing I don't think they're doing right, is not dropping you to the lowest cost per month when your contract is up. The difference per month is supposedly to recoup the cost of subsidizing the box. Well if 19.95/month is enought to pay for the box after 12months, and $12.95/month is enough to pay for the service they give, why do they need the extra $7 every month once the plan is paid off.

I thought they wanted to reduce churn... Give people an incentive to stay after they're not locked in anymore and the box is paid off.

I have a question too... for the MSD, the discount is $6. So If I prepay my second tivo for a 3yr, do I get a (3 * 12 * $6)=$216 discount off the $299(currently - reg $349)?
Or do I still pay $299 and it just lasts longer?

I beleve I'd have to commit and/or prepay for this period to have the $6.95 continue after the 3yrs... no?

CrispyCritter

01-10-2007, 12:51 PM

I have a question too... for the MSD, the discount is $6. So If I prepay my second tivo for a 3yr, do I get a (3 * 12 * $6)=$216 discount off the $299(currently - reg $349)?
Or do I still pay $299 and it just lasts longer?

I beleve I'd have to commit and/or prepay for this period to have the $6.95 continue after the 3yrs... no?Not quite right. You have to already be on monthly to get the $6.95 rate (ie, past the initial contract period in which you are basically paying back TiVo for the cheap initial hardware). You do have to commit for 3 years, but you will be paying monthly.

The three year $299 can't be used on the same TiVo you are getting the MSD rate on.

I'm sure a major factor that forced the new rates was people who were getting both the MSD and the subsidized hardware (especially without a long-term contract). It was a great deal for those folks, but TiVo was losing a lot of money on them, and they generally weren't the brand new customers TiVo wanted.

kjmcdonald

01-10-2007, 02:33 PM

Well I have 2 S2's

1 is lifetime, one is already $6.95 Has been for over 2 years I beleive.

If I get a third Tivo, I'll have to either cvommit to 3yrs monthly at $12.95 - $6 = $6.95, or pay for 3yrs up front, at what price?

Or are you saying that I'd have to pay $12.95/month, or $299 upfront for 3years, and then after the 3 years are over that's when I'll start to see the $6 discount per month?

That doesn't seem right...

-Kyle

Einselen

01-10-2007, 04:04 PM

. Also It's regular DVR is $12.95/month, but it's MRV DVR is $19.95 (x2 at least since you need 2 to multiroom view.)

I know this doesn't help in the discussion regarding Tivo, but may help with additional info. I believe that you need only 1 MRV DVR and then a set top box ($3.95/month) to view recordings in other rooms. You won't be able to setup recordings with STB (at least I don't believe so) but IIRC from my readings and research the recording will stream over to the STB for you to watch it then. You may want to call and ask about that or check online (as I only read about it online)

kjmcdonald

01-10-2007, 04:40 PM

I know this doesn't help in the discussion regarding Tivo, but may help with additional info. I believe that you need only 1 MRV DVR and then a set top box ($3.95/month) to view recordings in other rooms. You won't be able to setup recordings with STB (at least I don't believe so) but IIRC from my readings and research the recording will stream over to the STB for you to watch it then. You may want to call and ask about that or check online (as I only read about it online)

That's good to know. Still $19.95 for a single Dual Tuner DVR, and $3.95 for a MRV/STB is on par with Tivo's more expensive options.

I sometimes wish Tivo had a viewer only box (perferrably for just the cost of the box.) I can't see myself ever needing more than 4 tuners (2 S3's) but I can see myself wanting to watch from 3 or more rooms.

Actually to limit the number of boxes attached to my TV, I'd love a 'game' disc that I could throw in my XBox, XBox360, PS2, or PS3, that would turn it into a Tivo Viewer.

I'd think Sony at least would love to get in on that with the playstation, anything to turn it into more of a media hub, and compete with MS.

-Kyle

Sequoia225

01-10-2007, 06:49 PM

BTW, it's been gone for quite a while.

Also, if you have lifetime on any series 1s or series 2s you have, you can, through January 31, 2007, "transfer" lifetime to a newly purchased series 3 for $200. (.

I thought the box was like 800. Are you saying its 800 and then add 200 for the service transfer?

pdhenry

01-10-2007, 07:05 PM

Yes. But the series 3 can be had for ~$650 or so now. Then add $200.

SpiritualPoet

01-14-2007, 01:24 PM

lessd

01-14-2007, 02:32 PM

I don't know what the big deal about lifetime is anymore. After all, every analog box will be worthless once enough Americans buy HDTV receivers. Who wants an analog TiVo box once you are receiving HDTV? Therefore, I think TiVo should not have discontinued "lifetime" service to analog TiVo boxes. Within 3 years of the decision to discontinue that service option, most consumers will have converted to HDTV anyway. Yes, I know one can buy a converter to continue getting analog service. But if one has invested in HDTV, why accept such a "no longer valid" quality of analog?

Cost Cost Cost and I believe that the Cable Co.s will still offer a analog tier for many years.

Small TVs in say a kitchen do not have to be HD, there will come a time when all analog TV is stopped but I think the time frame is out say 7 years or so from now. I would guess that the HD TVs out there now are less then 3% of all TV in use in this country (my guess only).