Tivo being ported to OCAP (according to NCTA FCC filing)

[dt_dc]

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518710599

Multiple guides, multiple VOD applications, switched digital applications, interactive advertising, caller ID, email viewers, on screen subscriptions, and even the TiVo interface are being ported to OCAP.Note: this would not neccesarily mean that the first Comcast / Tivo trials are going to be OCAP based. Quite frankly I would tend to doubt it (although ... they could be targetting some other similar middleware). But anyway, most likely part of the 'longer term' Comcast / Cox deal.

[ChuckyBox]

Note: this would not neccesarily mean that the first Comcast / Tivo trials are going to be OCAP based. Quite frankly I would tend to doubt it (although ... they could be targetting some other similar middleware). But anyway, most likely part of the 'longer term' Comcast / Cox deal.
The letter's author(s) pretty much lose all credibility when they cite tvpredictions.com as a reference. Quoting Dilbert would lend more authority.

[davezatz]

I have a note into TiVo seeking confirmation.

[davezatz]

Confirmed!

EDIT: On second thought, 'confirmed' OCAP is on the table (news) with the cable companies. Sounds like the current port for the Moto boxes is running on a Java platform (not OCAP) and not directly controlling the hardware which is news to me. Though it does partially explain how they'll be able to pull off the network download of the TiVo software upgrade.

[samo]

Confirmed!
If you had to explain it to the laymen, what does it mean? If TiVo is being ported to OCAP, what are advantages/disadvantages for S2, S3 and future Comcast TiVo owners?

[davezatz]

It's probably biased as Motorola is in tight with the cable companies, but I had a nice Q&A with an exec which might shed a little light on it:
http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/07/motorola-talks-ocap/

Basically it's a common middleware that cable companies will run on their boxes and then will build or have built applications/software to run on top of it. In theory it'll save money in the long run by having a standard (java-based) platform.

[20TIL6]

If I understand this, the interface components (gui, etc.) of TiVo will be ported to a quasi, or alternately named Java runtime environment.

So is this anything more than the cable companies defending their STB territory in the living room? When you compare the ultimately proprietary hardware/software of cable companies with the openness and application fertile environment of Windows, Linux, and OSX, I can see this.

If the cable companies do this, wouldn't it be something if TiVo turns out to be the killer app that saves their butt.

And following what TiVo has said before regarding new functions within the interface (they will be server based with presentation abilities within TiVo), this could be very extensible without worrying about exceeding hardware limitations.

But, having said all that, I have yet to be impressed with the performance of Java.

[Dan203]

With some form of OCAP being a requirement of CableCARD 2.0 TiVo almost has to at least try to develop an OCAP platform. Otherwise they may never get access to features such as VOD and SDV. Plus it makes it a whole lot easier to port their software to new hardware platforms.

Dan

[dt_dc]

The "Java-Based pre-cursor middleware to OCAP" sounds like the TVWorks TV Navigator middleware / 'OnRamp to OCAP' that Comcast (and Cox) picked up when they purchased Liberate.

See this post for a bit more:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4726818&&#post4726818

[Justin Thyme]

Otherwise they may never get access to features such as VOD and SDV. So- you think that MS, Intel, Sony et al will be denied their Bidi proposal to modify CC2.0? If the cableco's are forced to support that MCard, why wouldn't Tivo upgrade the S3 to support it?

[Dan203]

MCard is NOT CC2.0. CC2.0 is a collection of standards that not only encompasses MCards, which the S3 can support, but also bidirectional communication which is needed for technologies such as VOD and SDV. As it stands the current CC2.0 spec, which is in the final approval stages, uses OCAP for access to bidirectional communications stuff. So if TiVo ever wants to support VOD or SDV they'll have to use OCAP to do it.

Dan

[Justin Thyme]

Actually, that will no longer be true if the FCC approves a new proposal by the CEA.

I was refering to the modified MCard proposed by CE/IT companies on November 7, 2006. Their target date for support on cableco servers is January 2008. Overview letter. (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518539867)

The letter from the NCTA that announced the OCAP Tivo was in response to this initiative supported by MS, Intel, Dell, Sony, Philips, Toshiba, Hitachi, ... basically the who's who of the IT/CE world (excepting Panasonic, LG and Samsung who coincidentally have fat OCAP box orders from the cablecos).

Their proposal is that they will implement two way without OCAP.

[20TIL6]

Can I ask maybe a silly question?

Assumption: So the S3 won't do VOD and SDV because it has a cablecard version that only supports one-way, downstream communication. Apparently, VOD and SDV requires some talkback from the STB.

Even though it would take cooperation from the cable companies, and some more software engineering on TiVo's part, but why couldn't the S3 use the ethernet interface as signaling back to a cable company web server, that would in turn translate that upstream data into what needs to go downstream back over the cable signals. For those that have cable broadband, damn, we're talking about the same physical pipe!

Latency maybe? Too much work? The S3 is clearly a bidirectional device if you incorporate the ethernet connection.

Without a bit more creativity on cable's part, I think any VOD demand from S3 users will be ripe pickings for somebody like Netflix or Apple.

[Justin Thyme]

why couldn't the S3 use the ethernet interface as signaling back to a cable company web server.
*sigh* You bet it could be done that way. But cable companies control the spec, and it didn't make any sense for them to support Bidirectional communication that way. It's mostly the inertia of their existing infrastructure that led them to do it the way they are.

The cableco's are using specific frequencies on their own wire to send information back up to their servers. Other providers such as Verizon FIOS do not send information back this way, but via IP as you suggest. IP is the modern way to do it, but the cableco's would rather not chuck all their infrastructure to support it.

If the CEA's November Bidi proposal goes through, devices like a slightly upgraded S3 could do two way services like Vod, PPV and switched video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video).

[Justin Thyme]

If you had to explain it to the laymen, what does it mean? If TiVo is being ported to OCAP, what are advantages/disadvantages for S2, S3 and future Comcast TiVo owners?
No advantage to S2 and S3 owners.

For Comcast users, it means a potentially larger exposure for Tivo. Comcast has an order for a quarter million OCAP units from Panasonic, and another 200K from Samsung with an option for an additional half million. LG is also has an OCAP box contract.

Most of those are probably plain set top boxes. Some will have to be DVRs in order to be ready for the potential 2007 integration ban, but also to showcase to the FCC how great OCAP is for the full spectrum of devices including the high end. Still, it is possible that Tivo would provide a non-DVR user interfaces for plain OCAP boxes. Say the Tivo OCAP DVR application does VOD, PPV- shopping- everything from a unified Tivo UI. The STB Tivo would be that UI minus the DVR features, and Cableco provided Java programs would plug into the master Tivo UI in the same way that HME/Galleon programs relate to the Tivo UI.

In the rosey cableco vision for the future, Sony, Philips, Toshiba, Hitachi, Dell would build OCAP DVRs and PCs, and Comcast would download Tivo DVR software to them. These would be available at retail, and so theTelecom 1996 law is satisfied.

The CE/IT companies don't like that idea because they want control of the UI because otherwise, they are turned into manufacturers of a commodity. EG. A Chinese noname DVR is indistinguishable in look and feel from the Sony DVR. Consumers would ask why they should pay $100 more for the Sony.

The Cableco's like the idea because OCAP means they control all UIs for all two way devices attached to their network. That means if you want to do shopping applications, banking, ecommerce, advertising insertion to replayed DVR programs, you have to talk to (and pay) the cableco.

The CEA's witty way of putting it is that OCAP allows the cableco's turn the play button into the pay button.

Tivo benefits both ways. OCAP and Moto Tivo's will be the onramp to the Tivo experience. If you want the full on Tivo experience with possibly less latency and less intrusion of Comcast popups, then you get a future bidirectional S3 equipped with the modified MCard proposed by the CEA.

Maybe someone else can take a stab at the laymen's explanation.

[Dan203]

Actually, that will no longer be true if the FCC approves a new proposal by the CEA.

I was refering to the modified MCard proposed by CE/IT companies on November 7, 2006. Their target date for support on cableco servers is January 2008. Overview letter. (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518539867)

I missed that, thanks for the link. It would be nice if the FCC mandated something like that, but at this point it's just a purposal, so it's hardly concrete.

Dan

[Justin Thyme]

Yes, but it is MS/Intel/Sony etc etc-

Each recognize how strategic the UI is in the living room, and simply will not cede it to the CableCos. They are old hands at this terrain and understand the threat.

Really, it's hard to imagine how they could be anything less than deadly serious about driving an OCAP-less proposal through the FCC come hell or high water- however many years it takes.

[20TIL6]

*sigh* You bet it could be done that way. But cable companies control the spec, and it didn't make any sense for them to support Bidirectional communication that way. It's mostly the inertia of their existing infrastructure that led them to do it the way they are.

The cableco's are using specific frequencies on their own wire to send information back up to their servers. Other providers such as Verizon FIOS do not send information back this way, but via IP as you suggest. IP is the modern way to do it, but the cableco's would rather not chuck all their infrastructure to support it.

If the CEA's November Bidi proposal goes through, devices like a slightly upgraded S3 could do two way services like Vod, PPV and switched video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video).
"slightly upgraded S3"

Do you think slightly upgraded is something viable for all the S3's sold to date? What are we talking about, firmware, new cablecards, or replaced chips? The VOD thing really does not bother me, I'm not a big VOD or PPV person. And I think somebody like Netflix or Apple or Amazon could fill in that void. The SDV bothers me though, because it sounds like it could render my S3's useless.

[Jazhuis]

IP is the modern way to do it, but the cableco's would rather die than release their iron grip for any reason.Fixed that for you. ;)

[jfh3]

The letter's author(s) pretty much lose all credibility when they cite tvpredictions.com as a reference. Quoting Dilbert would lend more authority.

Please don't insult Dilbert by mentioning it in the same breath as Swanni's swill.

[Justin Thyme]

Jazhius, that is also probably not far from the truth, and it is true they see no advantage to transforming themselves into simply one of many flavors of IPTV provider.

"slightly upgraded S3"

Do you think slightly upgraded is something viable for all the S3's sold to date? What are we talking about, firmware, new cablecards, or replaced chips?
Just this self confessed crackpot's opinion, but I think a 50 buck USB peripheral for existing S3's. Yeah, it's possible a software only upgrade could do it, but I am skeptical. They could have been genius anticipators putting in the right RF chip to xmit on the frequencies speced by the cablecos for out of band communications with the server and got 99.9 % of the way, but is unable to cross a crucial hurdle that mysteriously was not mentioned in any of the previous specs. So, probably a dicey proposition for software only. ClassicAt's propsal seems reasonable to me that a USB peripheral could be added which does the communication. Tivo software does the UI, tells the cablecard what message it wants to send to the server, the card returns the proper encrypted message, and the Tivo passes it out the USB port for xmitting on the coax to the server.
The VOD thing really does not bother me, I'm not a big VOD or PPV person. And I think somebody like Netflix or Apple or Amazon could fill in that void. The SDV bothers me though, because it sounds like it could render my S3's useless.I'm with you, I don't give a flying fickle about VOD or PPV, but for PPV I think I know how to use the phone or net. Switched video would require all digital subscribers in your near neighborhood (in one "subscriber service group" to be upgraded to digital equipment that is SWV* capable. So that is not a near term danger.

*Cablelabs habitually abbreviates switched video as SD, which is the same acronym as Standard Definition (vs. HD), and so makes things super confusing. I have seen Switched Digital VIdeo (SDV), and SVB (switched Video Broadcast). But the W is a very good discriminator, so I propose SWV as a being the clearest acronym.

[Fraser+Dief]

OCAP?

Ontario Coalition Against Poverty?

OCAP Corporation auto parts?

Orthopaedic Competence Assessment Project?

Hint to folks, use the full wording the first time, then switch to the acronym. Not everyone knows what they hell you're talking about. :)

[Justin Thyme]

OCAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCable_Application_Platform)

OpenCable Application Platform, or OCAP, is a technical software standard created by CableLabs for the cable networks of North America. OCAP is the Java (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_%28Sun%29)-based software/middleware portion of the OpenCable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCable) initiative. OCAP is based on the GEM (Globally Executable MHP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globally_Executable_MHP) ) standard, and was defined by CableLabs. Because OCAP is based on GEM, it has a lot in common with the MHP (Multimedia Home Platform) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Home_Platform) standard defined by the DVB (Digital Video Broadcasting) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB)-project.

Welcome to acronym hell.

[dt_dc]

Another interesting blurb from a Dec. 19th CT article. For those wondering about Cox ...http://www.cable360.net/ct/news/people/21270.html

Craig Smithpeters (Title: Manager, advanced technology and standards, Cox Communications)

(...)

The first OnRamp trial on Motorola set-tops is scheduled to occur in the second half of 2007. This trial would include the Tivo IPG, built to the OnRamp.