"Clear Program Data and To Do List" Solved HR10-250 Lockups

[pete491]

My HR10-250 started frezing up and rebooting itself when I got V6.3a as others have documented. My machine went from working perfectly to feezing 2-3 times a day.

I went ahead and did the "Clear Program Data and To Do List" because this had worked for me about a year ago when I was having a rebooting problem.

Seems to have solved the problem.

My machine has now worked flawlessly for the last 4 days - a BIG improvement.

You have to re-enter your Season Passes and Favorite channels but I had recorded this info off to my DVD recorder and did the split screen trick on my TV and repopulated this info in about a half an hour.

I am hoping this stays fixed until I can get V6.3b.

[temp357]

i did the same thing after putting in a new drive. The problem will come back as long as you are running 6.3a . According to a few folks they are still experiencing the problems with 6.3b . I went back to 3.1.5f and have not had a single lockup or reboot since.

[sluciani]

If you're only having a problem under 6.3, then the problem isn't with 6.3 itself, but the drive partiition 6.3 is sitting in. It may be occupying a bad part of the disk that was previously unusued. I'm not positive, but I believe a Clear and Delete Everything will reformat the software partitions as well as the data areas. (If someone knows for a fact that it does a complete reformat, please confirm.)

If this still doesn't help, then C&D Everything probably doesn't reformat the system partitions, in which case you either have to send the unit into D* for a replacement, or, if you can do it yourself, pull the system drive, reformat or replace it and "Instant Cake" a new copy of s/w onto it.

/steve

[cheer]

If you're only having a problem under 6.3, then the problem isn't with 6.3 itself, but the drive partiition 6.3 is sitting in. It may be occupying a bad part of the disk that was previously unusued. I'm not positive, but I believe a Clear and Delete Everything will reformat the software partitions as well as the data areas. (If someone knows for a fact that it does a complete reformat, please confirm.)
You don't know that the problem isn't with 6.3 itself.

No, a C&DE doesn't touch the software (kernel, root, var) partitions at all.

[sluciani]

You don't know that the problem isn't with 6.3 itself.

If it was a 6.3 problem, it would seem to me there would be many more reports of freeze-ups or reboots than we're seeing.

I've got 4 HR10's, all running 6.3a except one running 6.3b. My oldest unit is over two years old (an original HR10), and my newest is about 3 months old. The only problems anyone in the house is experiencing on the 6.3a machines are OTA HD audio dropouts. Other than these, we are not seeing lock-ups, freeze-ups, re-boots, shortened recordings, non-recordings or premature deletes.

If temp357's is not experiencing reboots under 3.15, but only under 6.3a, then it seems logical to me that there is a problem with the portion of the hard drive 6.3a is using that 3.15 isn't using. If a C&D All will not completely reformat the drive, the only thing left to do I can think of is to manually pull the drive and reformat or replace it, or send the entire unit back to D* to swap for one with a presumably good drive installed.

I guess there's also a slim possibility that there may be a RAM memory issue with temp's unit, but I doubt 3.15f doesn't fully-ultilize all available RAM.

/steve

[temp357]

If it was a 6.3 problem, it would seem to me there would be many more reports of freeze-ups or reboots than we're seeing.

I've got 4 HR10's, all running 6.3a except one running 6.3b. My oldest unit is over two years old (an original HR10), and my newest is about 3 months old. The only problems anyone in the house is experiencing on the 6.3a machines are OTA HD audio dropouts. Other than these, we are not seeing lock-ups, freeze-ups, re-boots, shortened recordings, non-recordings or premature deletes.

If temp357's is not experiencing reboots under 3.15, but only under 6.3a, then it seems logical to me that there is a problem with the portion of the hard drive 6.3a is using that 3.15 isn't using. If a C&D All will not completely reformat the drive, the only thing left to do I can think of is to manually pull the drive and reformat or replace it, or send the entire unit back to D* to swap for one with a presumably good drive installed.

I guess there's also a slim possibility that there may be a RAM memory issue with temp's unit, but I doubt 3.15f doesn't fully-ultilize all available RAM.

/steve

It is definitely software related and has absolutely nothing to do with the disk going bad or bad sectors. It may be related to the disk filling up with errors, which would still make this a software problem. I listened to bogus advice like this and replaced the hard drive and still had problems. The only thing that made my DVR work again was 3.1.5f. It may be slow, but its steady.

[sluciani]

It is definitely software related and has absolutely nothing to do with the disk going bad or bad sectors.

You're 100% wrong and 100% right. I've worked in the computer technologly field for over 35 years and pride myself on not giving "bogus" advice.

You're wrong in that it's not the 6.3a code that's causing your problems. Think about it logically. If it was code related, some 250,000 to 400,000 HR10's (by different guesstimates) would all be boat anchors if they all exhibited the behavior you're seeing.

You're right in that when you're NOT using 6.3a, you aren't using the part of your disk that's apparently bad. So 6.3a is causing your problem, just not for the reason you think.

If your unit is covered, I'd return it to DirecTV for a new one, if possible.

/steve

[jediphish]

You're 100% wrong and 100% right. I've worked in the computer technologly field for over 35 years and pride myself on not giving "bogus" advice.

You're wrong in that it's not the 6.3a code that's causing your problems. Think about it logically. If it was code related, some 250,000 to 400,000 HR10's (by different guesstimates) would all be boat anchors if they all exhibited the behavior you're seeing.

You're right in that when you're NOT using 6.3a, you aren't using the part of your disk that's apparently bad. So 6.3a is causing your problem, just not for the reason you think.

If your unit is covered, I'd return it to DirecTV for a new one, if possible.

/steve

I was having reboots on 6.3a. I'm now having reboots on 6.3b. Since, as everyone claims, 6.3b would have been loaded on the other partion (not the same one as 6.3a), then either both partitions are now bad on my machine, or its the software. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to be both partitions of my disk are not bad.

[sluciani]

I was having reboots on 6.3a. I'm now having reboots on 6.3b. Since, as everyone claims, 6.3b would have been loaded on the other partion (not the same one as 6.3a), then either both partitions are now bad on my machine, or its the software. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to be both partitions of my disk are not bad.

According to this post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4667309&&#post4667309) from lampman:

"Literally the only system file that changed from 6.3a to 6.3b was /platform/lib/libhpkhl.so. This is the library that abstracts the specific hardware away from the software."

If true, the software partition wouldn't change. It also explains why, unlike other upgrades, 6.3b didn't force us to rebuild our channel lists or change any other preferences.

/steve

[jediphish]

According to this post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4667309&&#post4667309) from lampman:

"Literally the only system file that changed from 6.3a to 6.3b was /platform/lib/libhpkhl.so. This is the library that abstracts the specific hardware away from the software."

If true, the software partition wouldn't change. It also explains why, unlike other upgrades, 6.3b didn't force us to rebuild our channel lists or change any other preferences.

/steve


If that is true, then I stand (sit actually) corrected.

[temp357]

You're 100% wrong and 100% right. I've worked in the computer technologly field for over 35 years and pride myself on not giving "bogus" advice.

You're wrong in that it's not the 6.3a code that's causing your problems. Think about it logically. If it was code related, some 250,000 to 400,000 HR10's (by different guesstimates) would all be boat anchors if they all exhibited the behavior you're seeing.

You're right in that when you're NOT using 6.3a, you aren't using the part of your disk that's apparently bad. So 6.3a is causing your problem, just not for the reason you think.

If your unit is covered, I'd return it to DirecTV for a new one, if possible.

/steve

No offense, but perhaps you aren't as knowledgable as you think.

Two brand new drives can't both be bad. But going back to 3.1.5f magically fixes everything? Using your math 2+2 equals 22. Perhaps in your 35 years of experience you have not been introduced to Occam's razor. Do yourself a favor and look it up :)

[sluciani]

I am familiar with the Occam's Razor rule, which advises one not to unneccesarily complicate things, if I'm not mistaken. I'm also a fan of Sherlock Holmes who said to Watson "when you eliminate the obvious, whatever remains, however strange, must be the truth". The fact is that there are probably well over 500,000 HR10's out there (including 4 of my own) which aren't rebooting because of 6.3a. If it was the 6.3a code, this would be a much huger issue then is being reported in these forums.... more like the OTA audio dropouts.

As I mentioned before, if you don't believe it's your disk, then there's chance it could be faulty RAM memory or perhaps another h/w related issue, though I'm not sure such an issue wouldn't affect 3.15f as well.

Either way, assuming it's covered, why not just send your unit back to D* for a swap? Why should you be forced to live with 3.15f and lose the speed advantages of 6.3b for managing recordings?

No offense taken, BTW. Just trying to be helpful. :)

/s

[bpratt]

I ran on 6.3a for over a month, then 6.3b for 10 days with no problems except audio dropouts on 6.3a. Yesterday, after 10 flawless days on 6.3b, my unit restarted. In two years of use, it never restarted on 3.1. Count me as one who also believes there is a software problem with 6.3.

[temp357]

I am familiar with the Occam's Razor rule, which advises one not to unneccesarily complicate things, if I'm not mistaken. I'm also a fan of Sherlock Holmes who said to Watson "when you eliminate the obvious, whatever remains, however strange, must be the truth". The fact is that there are probably well over 500,000 HR10's out there (including 4 of my own) which aren't rebooting because of 6.3a. If it was the 6.3a code, this would be a much huger issue then is being reported in these forums.... more like the OTA audio dropouts.

As I mentioned before, if you don't believe it's your disk, then there's chance it could be faulty RAM memory or perhaps another h/w related issue, though I'm not sure such an issue wouldn't affect 3.15f as well.

Either way, assuming it's covered, why not just send your unit back to D* for a swap? Why should you be forced to live with 3.15f and lose the speed advantages of 6.3b for managing recordings?

No offense taken, BTW. Just trying to be helpful. :)

/s

You assume that we are in possession of all of the facts about what's causing it. Maybe there is a geographical issue with OTA or guide data? Maybe you use the RCA outputs when I'm using HDMI, maybe the new software bug only works with samsung TV's. Heck, you assume that your 4 or 5 units are reflective of all the HR10's out there. As the poll about reboots showed over 65% are experiencing reboots/lockups with their units after receiving 6.3a. Now we can argue about the statistical validity or look at the basic facts. Here are the facts in my experience:

1) Original drive with 3.1.5f no problems
2) Original drive with 6.3a constant stuttering and a lockup a week along with reboots
3) New 250gb drive immediately upgrade with 6.3a and a Clear and Delete everythig - stuttering, constant lockups and reboots, and a surprise invalid access card message popping up every once in awhile
4) New 500gb drive with immediately upgraded to 6.3a and CDE. Same as #3
5) Redid orginal drive to 3.1.5f - not a single problem since
6) Redid 500gb drive with 3.1.5f - not a single problem since

Using a real process of elimination the only obvious answer is this is a software problem.

The reason I did not call directv 1) they don't care 2) it is not a hardware problem and 3) I'm not about to extend my contract with them anymore for the obvious reasons above. 4) i didn't spend $900 on a tivo unit to have a crappy hr20 shoved down my throat.

:o

Ali

P.S. I now have a few extra new drives if you want to buy one, I can even put 3.1.5f on it for you free of charge ;)

[sluciani]

You're right. I guess we're not in possesion of all the facts. If it helps troubleshoot your problem or anyone else's, here's what I'm running with no apparent 6.3 issues, except the OTA HD audio dropouts:

Two of my HR10s are connected via HDMI, two via component.

All are connected to the same amplified external OTA antenna via a diplexed SAT/UHF connection from a 5x8 multiswitch.

Two units have only Sat1 connected (and are properly configured as one tuner.)

I live in a suburb of NYC, so I'm receiving northeast guide data.

Oldest unit is now running 6.3b and contains a second 300 GB drive I installed a couple of years ago. The other three units are all 6.3a with stock 250 GB drives.

I once experienced several spontaneous reboots for a few week period under 3.15e on the unit that is now running 6.3b.

I have never done a C&D all on any of them.

I get 85-100 signal strength on all my sat transponders, and 75-85 on my UHF channels.

/steve

[pete491]

My HR10-250 started frezing up and rebooting itself when I got V6.3a as others have documented. My machine went from working perfectly to feezing 2-3 times a day.

I went ahead and did the "Clear Program Data and To Do List" because this had worked for me about a year ago when I was having a rebooting problem.

Seems to have solved the problem.

My machine has now worked flawlessly for the last 4 days - a BIG improvement.

You have to re-enter your Season Passes and Favorite channels but I had recorded this info off to my DVD recorder and did the split screen trick on my TV and repopulated this info in about a half an hour.

I am hoping this stays fixed until I can get V6.3b.

The "Clear Program Data and To Do List" is still working for me. I went from having a HR10-250 that was almost unusable to one that is again working flawlessly. I have not had a freeze up or re-boot since my original post on this issue.

Maybe by doing this the system stops using a bad spot on the disk or something but if I was having locked system problems or re-boots I'd try this first.

Pete

[tarman]

One of the things that seems to slip by in these discussions is that the Tivo is a very complex system that can and must react to hundreds of variables.

Think about just a few of them:
- Everyone's ToDo List is likely different.
- As are everyone's suggestions list
- Wish Lists
- Channels you receive
- Favorite Channels
- Now Playing list
- 30-second skip
- Show/hide the time display
- number of groups
- Which guide they use
- Which channels are in the guide
- mix of HD vs SD and sat vs OTA
- etc.

No one, likely not even TiVo or DirecTV, really know which (if any of these) impact the stability (or lack thereof) of the Tivo software.

For example, maybe units with >10 groups AND <30 Suggestions AND > 4 HD Channels in their Favorites List AND currently recording two HD OTA channels will reboot do to some bogus error message filling up the /var partition. Could be???

So, since an absolute is so hard to determine in these complex systems, I will NEVER say that doing XXX or doing YYY will (or will not) fix the (current TiVo/DirecTV) problem.

Since there MAY really be several different (data dependent) problems, each different "solution" MAY fix the problem being encountered by an individual system.

[Leila]

I have three HR10s running 6.3a and one HR10 running 6.3b.
All of them expeience the same problems. If it happens on the
6.3a, it also happens on the 6.3b updated HR10. :(

In fact, the audio dropout problem happens three times as often
on the one running 6.3b, which I why I'm hoping the other three
HR10s don't get updated to 6.3b at all.(is unplugging the phone l
ine the correct way to prevent update?

[jhimmel]

All are connected to the same amplified external OTA antenna via a diplexed SAT/UHF connection from a 5x8 multiswitch.

I live in a suburb of NYC, so I'm receiving northeast guide data.

I get 85-100 signal strength on all my sat transponders, and 75-85 on my UHF channels.

/steve

Steve, any problem tuning in NY OTA 11-1 and 11-2 (NY WPIX)?
A couple of us are not able to Tune in those stations after the update - even though the Signal Strength is registering 95% for those channels.

Jim H.

P.S. - the problem affects ONLY NY WPIX (11-1&11-2). OTA NY CBS, NBC, FOX, etc are all still fine.

[DeWitt]

My experience has been that 6.3a is not the real problem, or the hard disk. What I have observed is that some machines become unstable when they are converted from 3.15f to 6.3a. Doing a Clear Program Data and To Do List seems to solve the problem for many peoiple.

And for the record, I had an almost unusable machine shortly after the conversion even though it had a 2 month old quickview drive that checks good with spinrite.

There was a database conversion involved in the upgrade, and if any type of software change is likely to cause erratic and unpredictable results it's a database conversion in place.

I did a C&D Everything to be sure I was starting from scratch.

None of the stablity problems have returned for me once doing this. (Ignoring audio drop outs till 6.3b hits my machine..)

[sluciani]

Steve, any problem tuning in NY OTA 11-1 and 11-2 (NY WPIX)?
A couple of us are not able to Tune in those stations after the update - even though the Signal Strength is registering 95% for those channels.

Jim H.

P.S. - the problem affects ONLY NY WPIX (11-1&11-2). OTA NY CBS, NBC, FOX, etc are all still fine.

Jim,

I'm not getting 11.1 or 11.2 on any of my machines, either 6.3a or 6.3b. I'm also getting a signal strength of 95 on UHF 33 (highest I've ever seen, as I recall). My currently weakest signal is WNET DT at 78-80, but reception is fine. Why do you think it's related to the update? I don't watch that channel often, but I'm pretty sure it was working under 6.3a in the past.

/steve

[dbuchthal]

You're right. I guess we're not in possesion of all the facts. If it helps troubleshoot your problem or anyone else's, here's what I'm running with no apparent 6.3 issues, except the OTA HD audio dropouts:

Do you use the 30s skip code? I've had numerous reboots, but the only evidence I received of the reboot was that I needed to reenter the 30s skip code each time. For me, the reboot happens only once every few days, so I wasn't sure what was going on until I saw it directly in the middle of program playback. There might be more people who are rebooting but don't know it.

From the problems I've been hearing about, it sounds like there might indeed be a systemic problem in boxes that upgraded from 3.1 to 6.3. I'm glad it's Christmas season, as I'll use the television downtime to C&D my box and see if that helps. It sure as heck can't hurt...