New service plans hurt monthly old-timers

[srauly]

I apologize if there are already a million threads about this (I'm sure there are), but I didn't see my flavor of complaints on the first couple of pages of threads so I figured I'd start a new thread.

I'm a TiVo early-adopter. I still have my 14 hour standalone unit (collecting dust). I've also got two other Philips DirecTiVo units collecting dust. I always paid month-to-month because I figured, "Who knows what great new technology will be out 2 years from now?" Currently, I have two active fairly recent standalone models which I got a good deal on from some promotion TiVo was running at some time or another (I think one or both are refurbished). I pay $12.95/month for the first unit and $6.95/month for the 2nd unit. I'm about to move and am thinking about various options: Cable HD-DVR, TiVo S3, Dish network ViP-622.

Here's what I don't get: The new pricing plans are designed around the notion that TiVo is subsidizing the units like a cell phone, but there doesn't seem to be any allowance for people signing up with an older long-since-paid-for unit. This penalizes me in two ways (correct me if I'm wrong):

1) If I temporarily disable my service and want to come back to TiVo later, I've got to commit to at least a year (and pay more per month than I am now) or a whopping three years if I want to get back to the monthly rate I'm paying now. And if I cancel before then I'm supposed to pay them an early-termination fee?!? For a box that is long-since-paid-for?!?

2) If I go to sell my boxes on ebay, I imagine that they are now worth a lot less than they were before the old pricing plans because, as mentioned above in #1, new customers aren't going to get any benefit from buying my old box (i.e., the ability to not have to commit and/or get a better monthly rate) that they would have before the new pricing plans. In fact, why would anyone buy a used box that doesn't have a lifetime subscription now? Thanks TiVo.

I love the TiVo interface. I always felt that it was a bad business decision for them to sell the lifetime subscriptions in the first place. But I also always rolled my eyes when I read about how their monthly charges were for the TiVo "service" when I knew darn well that the features were built into the box and all I was ever really paying for was the guide data. I always hoped that eventually the monthly cost for the guide data would go down, not up (to maybe $4.99/month). Instead, prices have gone up!

Not that they'll listen, but I really think that they need to make some changes to the pricing plans and offer pricing plans for people who want to pay for old long-since-paid-for (or new unsubsidized) boxes.

So now I'm stuck: Do I move and bring my TiVo service with me, or do I give Dish or the local cable company a try (to get HDTV) and realize that once I've disconnected my TiVo service I'll really never be able to go back (if these price plans/policies stay as-is)?

[ChuckyBox]

Here's what I don't get: The new pricing plans are designed around the notion that TiVo is subsidizing the units like a cell phone, but there doesn't seem to be any allowance for people signing up with an older long-since-paid-for unit. This penalizes me in two ways (correct me if I'm wrong):

No, you are correct. This has been discussed at great length (see the thread at the top of the page). Some of us think TiVo should give the 3-year pricing on 1-year contracts on boxes that are already subsidy-recovered. But it may simply be too difficult to track all of the information needed for the relatively few people who are in that position.


So now I'm stuck: Do I move and bring my TiVo service with me, or do I give Dish or the local cable company a try (to get HDTV) and realize that once I've disconnected my TiVo service I'll really never be able to go back (if these price plans/policies stay as-is)?
These subscription policies are unlikely to change, but it is extremely likely that the box subsidies will drop following the holidays. But your decisions have more to do with your financial situation, your style of TV viewing, how much you value the TiVo features and interface, etc. You can always give cable a try, use their DVR (without cancelling your TiVo service) for a month or so, then make your decision.

[jmoak]

1) I think you're correct. The moral of the story? If you want to keep being grandfathered in with the old pricing, don't turn off your service.

It sucks, but there you go.

2) Imagine again. An old un-modded month to month box was never worth a lot unless they were bought before feb 2001(??), then they could be used as a manual recorder.

In fact, hardly anyone would buy a used box that doesn't have a lifetime subscription. An old un-modded month to month used box that doesn't have a lifetime subscription has never been worth much, before or after the new pricing plans. (unless it's to be hacked, then an old 240 is worth ~$50)

But, heay... I'm the guy who rolls his eyes when I read about how some folks think "all I was ever really paying for was the guide data", when I see it as tivo's monthly charges are for the tivo "service", and that includes a buttload of features added to the box via updates over the years.

Just comparing what my series 2 did when I first got it to what it does today makes that real plain.

...unless you care for none of what was added. But if that's so, why'd you get a tivo, man? You could have bought a simple recorder and saved a bunch of money!!

;)

[TriBruin]

I apologize if there are already a million threads about this (I'm sure there are)
Maybe one or two. :rolleyes:

, but I didn't see my flavor of complaints on the first couple of pages of threads so I figured I'd start a new thread.
Great another thread about pricing. Just what we needed.

I'm a TiVo early-adopter.I still have my 14 hour standalone unit (collecting dust). I've also got two other Philips DirecTiVo units collecting dust. I always paid month-to-month because I figured, "Who knows what great new technology will be out 2 years from now?" Currently, I have two active fairly recent standalone models which I got a good deal on from some promotion TiVo was running at some time or another (I think one or both are refurbished). I pay $12.95/month for the first unit and $6.95/month for the 2nd unit. I'm about to move and am thinking about various options: Cable HD-DVR, TiVo S3, Dish network ViP-622.

Here's what I don't get: The new pricing plans are designed around the notion that TiVo is subsidizing the units like a cell phone, but there doesn't seem to be any allowance for people signing up with an older long-since-paid-for unit. This penalizes me in two ways (correct me if I'm wrong):

1) If I temporarily disable my service and want to come back to TiVo later, I've got to commit to at least a year (and pay more per month than I am now) or a whopping three years if I want to get back to the monthly rate I'm paying now. And if I cancel before then I'm supposed to pay them an early-termination fee?!? For a box that is long-since-paid-for?!?

This is the ONLY valid argument against the new plan, I have seen or heard. The point of the new plan is to recoup the cost of the subsidized hardware and the Subscriber Acquistion Cost. Since, neither of these applies to an EXISTING customer with previously purchased equipment, it is "somewhat" unfair to subsidize the new customers.

2) If I go to sell my boxes on ebay, I imagine that they are now worth a lot less than they were before the old pricing plans because, as mentioned above in #1, new customers aren't going to get any benefit from buying my old box (i.e., the ability to not have to commit and/or get a better monthly rate) that they would have before the new pricing plans. In fact, why would anyone buy a used box that doesn't have a lifetime subscription now? Thanks TiVo.
No offense, but Tivo doesn't (and shouldn't) care about the used Tivo market. That is not their problem. They are in the business of locking you in to the new equipment with a minimum commitment term. That is how they make money. Do you think that Lenovo cares that the Laptop I bought last March for $1500 is now worth half that!

I love the TiVo interface. I always felt that it was a bad business decision for them to sell the lifetime subscriptions in the first place. But I also always rolled my eyes when I read about how their monthly charges were for the TiVo "service" when I knew darn well that the features were built into the box and all I was ever really paying for was the guide data.
Funny, I don't remember seeing HMO, MRV, T2G, Kidzone, or a Recently Deleted Folder in my original Tivo. Other than HMO/MRV, all these items have been added without any direct fee. All were paid for by your monthly fees.

I always hoped that eventually the monthly cost for the guide data would go down, not up (to maybe $4.99/month). Instead, prices have gone up!
It is called inflation. It is happens.

Not that they'll listen, but I really think that they need to make some changes to the pricing plans and offer pricing plans for people who want to pay for old long-since-paid-for (or new unsubsidized) boxes.
Agreed

So now I'm stuck: Do I move and bring my TiVo service with me, or do I give Dish or the local cable company a try (to get HDTV) and realize that once I've disconnected my TiVo service I'll really never be able to go back (if these price plans/policies stay as-is)?
Why are you stuck. Cable companies DONT have a minimum commitment. Get one, try it out for a month or two (yes, pay two fees.) If you like it, great, give up Tivo. If you dislike it, return it. Only cost is the monthly fee for 1-2 months.

[HDTiVo]

This is the ONLY valid argument against the new plan, I have seen or heard. The point of the new plan is to recoup the cost of the subsidized hardware and the Subscriber Acquistion Cost. Since, neither of these applies to an EXISTING customer with previously purchased equipment, it is "somewhat" unfair to subsidize the new customers.

If you put your thinking into the extremely narrow perspective of 'Given that SAC is so high, they need more sub revenue over the life of the box;' and accept that higher sub fees, and lower subs will actually overcome higher SAC spending, lower ancillary revenues (ads & DOD), and other corporate expenses.

One alternative would be to expand the view to saying they could alternatively sell S2ST boxes for $299 (or maybe $349 or $249) (other boxes for commensurately more) with service included, generate revenue from other business lines like advertising and DOD transactions, and speculate if that would work better.

Then you could think about charging higher service fees than $12.95/$6.95 for a year or so on a premium box above the S2ST instead of charging a "box fee" and speculate about whether that could work better.

Then you could think about having both options available, and what that might yield.

Then, low and behold, you'd actually have what Rogers advertised to the financial community last year - all up-front and no up-front options - instead of almost having none of those, except for no up-front on the S2ST.

[jkovach]

No offense, but Tivo doesn't (and shouldn't) care about the used Tivo market. That is not their problem. They are in the business of locking you in to the new equipment with a minimum commitment term. That is how they make money. Do you think that Lenovo cares that the Laptop I bought last March for $1500 is now worth half that!

I don't quite agree with that statement. If old units aren't worth the trouble of selling, then instead of being paying, subscribed boxes they are either going to be sitting in people's closets collecting dust or in the junkyard. If they have some value, plus a lower subscription rate, they will more likely be utilized and contribute to Tivo's bottom line.

[Stormspace]

I don't quite agree with that statement. If old units aren't worth the trouble of selling, then instead of being paying, subscribed boxes they are either going to be sitting in people's closets collecting dust or in the junkyard. If they have some value, plus a lower subscription rate, they will more likely be utilized and contribute to Tivo's bottom line.

That's a very good point. I read of a number of people lately saying their old boxes are collecting dust in a closet. If these boxes could be subbed for a nominal amount they'd be in use and advertising for the company. Boxes should definitely go to a lower rate once the software on them has been stopped at a particular version and it's stable. Every series 1 customer on monthly at this time is being overcharged.

[rainwater]

That's a very good point. I read of a number of people lately saying their old boxes are collecting dust in a closet. If these boxes could be subbed for a nominal amount they'd be in use and advertising for the company. Boxes should definitely go to a lower rate once the software on them has been stopped at a particular version and it's stable. Every series 1 customer on monthly at this time is being overcharged.

I think TiVo should of allowed users to get the 3-year rate after their initial contract is up without having to commit to 3 years. Currently, they are encouraging users to stop using TiVo after the initial contract. I'm not sure why they think this is a good idea, but people who buy a TiVo with a 2-3 year contract, shouldn't be forced to sign up again for 2-3 years to get the same rate.

[srauly]

I agree about keeping the TiVo service alive for a month or two while I mull things over - that's probably what I'll have to do.

I also agree that there have been some feature upgrades that have occurred over the years but TiVo will be the first to tell you that past "performance" (new features added) is no promise for new features, so the monthly service has never been tied by them to these new features, simply the programming data and enabling whatever features are already built into the box.

I disagree about the usefulness of an old TiVo. My 14 hour TiVo was useful to me as-is and it was certainly useful for a lot of other people (hence the initial popularity of the TiVo). I have difficulty believing that the majority of 14 hour TiVos in circulation had their HD's upgraded by the original owners. Sure, space was tight, and I had to think hard about which programs I really wanted to record at a higher PQ level, but I made do. I realize that there are a lot of people here who have super-sized TiVos (whether factory or user-upgraded), but I could very happily live with a unit that offered about 20 hours of perfect-quality recording, and I suspect that most others could as well.

I'm less concerned about the resale value of my aged 14-hour model, because that *is* a really old unit. I'm more concerned about the resale value of my more recent unsubsidized S2 units that have plenty of features and plenty (IMO) of storage space for the average person. I'd like to go with an HD-DVR soon and would have liked to have helped "self-subsidize" the expense of a S3 unit by reselling one of my S2 units. Now, because I was month-to-month and not a lifetimer, I may as well toss any TiVo that isn't actively connected into the garbage.

[HDTiVo]

I don't quite agree with that statement. If old units aren't worth the trouble of selling, then instead of being paying, subscribed boxes they are either going to be sitting in people's closets collecting dust or in the junkyard. If they have some value, plus a lower subscription rate, they will more likely be utilized and contribute to Tivo's bottom line.

Right. Selling a low end S2ST is probably TiVo's worst option for itself. Allowing old boxes to be re-subed may be one of its best - other than selling an S3.

[classicsat]

But it may simply be too difficult to track all of the information needed for the relatively few people who are in that position.


It wouldn't be that hard. Just grandfather all 2xx and older, newer boxes activated before Sept 2005, or simply even, boxes that have fulfilled the commitment when they originally were activated.

[ChuckyBox]

It wouldn't be that hard.
TiVo can't tell you if a package has shipped. TiVo can't cancel an order that hasn't shipped. TiVo can't deal with a package that's been shipped to the wrong address. Assuming that something "wouldn't be that hard" assumes that TiVo has a system in place that can handle these kinds of issues, and they clearly don't.

It is also a question of priorities. How many man-hours would it take to do it, and what is the value to the company? What else could TiVo do with those same resources committed to some other customer-retention project?

It is likely that the re-subbing of TiVo boxes is a very small part of the overall business, and therefore not worth a lot of expenditure. It's probably easier just to give people the $12.95 rate if they bitch too much.

[gastrof]

...why'd you get a tivo, man? You could have bought a simple recorder and saved a bunch of money!!

;)


Can you suggest a dependable DVR anywhere out there?

Haven't the non-subscription types been, to a great extent, not as dependable as a TiVo?

If there's one out there that, while lacking in the "bells and whistles", consistently works without a high failure rate, could you point it out?

[ZeoTiVo]

simply put - TiVo would like to see the S1 and S2 fade away and everyone use the S3. The business model for TiVo started out with the idea that ahrdware alone would make people move to new boxes, hence the lifetime sub tied to the hardware. Unfortunately TiVo saw they miscalculated the lure of new hardware and are left with a lot of legacy support that brings in no new money.

So goodbye lifetimes and hello new pricing plans that devalue old hardware

[bicker]

And it may be the only viable financial model for the future, given that what they were doing previously wasn't working well enough.

[JJ]

The world
did not quite work the way TiVo anticipated. Based on the foreseeables in 1998 the analog OTA would be long gone by now and even cable providers would be well on the way of going full digital. Series1 and many Series2 would be without an analog signal if things went as predicted.

The lifetime was a way to infuse cash into TiVo and had effect of lureing early adopters. As one of those early adopters my HDR110 has more than lived up to expectations. Mine has 'morphed' from antenna to cable to DirecTV to VOOM (imitation HD) to cable again, a very agile box indeed. I'm thinking the Series3 may prove as agile but I'm still waiting for the shakedown cruise to conclude. The TiVo on Moto from Comcast remains a contender is waiting.

I can't think of very many other 'high tech' devices circa 1999 that I still use everyday...

[jmoak]

Can you suggest a dependable DVR anywhere out there?Sure!

The Tackyama PU6-5000!

;)

I keed, I keed!

[samo]

The lifetime was a way to infuse cash into TiVo and had effect of lureing early adopters
No it wasn't. Original plan was monthly only. Lifetime option was added to counter "free service" from Replay. The price of the lifetime ($200 at a time it was added) set TiVo on par with Replay. TiVo was $500 for 14 hr unit with option of $9.95 monthly, $100 pre-paid for 1 year, or $200 lifetime. Replay was $700 with no monthly option. Giving people an option of going monthly while matching Replay offering for people who didn't want to pay recurring fees helped TiVo to get bigger market share and to be able to go public before dot.com bubble burst. Replay was to late to go public (by just few months) and went down a drain.

[HDTiVo]

TiVo can't tell you if a package has shipped. TiVo can't cancel an order that hasn't shipped. TiVo can't deal with a package that's been shipped to the wrong address. Assuming that something "wouldn't be that hard" assumes that TiVo has a system in place that can handle these kinds of issues, and they clearly don't.

It is also a question of priorities. How many man-hours would it take to do it, and what is the value to the company? What else could TiVo do with those same resources committed to some other customer-retention project?

It is likely that the re-subbing of TiVo boxes is a very small part of the overall business, and therefore not worth a lot of expenditure. It's probably easier just to give people the $12.95 rate if they bitch too much.
Ah yes, the old just because a three year old could do it doesn't mean TiVo should be expected to do it excuse. :rolleyes: Very effective. :rolleyes:

[srauly]

simply put - TiVo would like to see the S1 and S2 fade away and everyone use the S3. The business model for TiVo started out with the idea that ahrdware alone would make people move to new boxes, hence the lifetime sub tied to the hardware. Unfortunately TiVo saw they miscalculated the lure of new hardware and are left with a lot of legacy support that brings in no new money.

So goodbye lifetimes and hello new pricing plans that devalue old hardware
I don't follow you. Are you suggesting that TiVo is more of a hardware company now and wants to make their profits from the sale of S3 units? If they can't figure out a way (after all these years) to make a profit by selling guide data for under $10/month, then they deserve to go bankrupt. It was posted somewhere that the servicing existing customers (i.e., providing guide data plus other little bits) costs them $30/year. So that means that they could charge $3/month (with no contract) on unsubsidized equipment and still make a (small) profit. This aligns well with what I've always felt the monthly "service" charge should reasonably be: about $5/month. But after using and loving the TiVo UI, I'd even be content with paying $10/month for the first box and $5/month for each extra box. If "supporting" old equipment means them offering software updates, etc. and that's too costly for them, then there's a simple solution to that: don't. Just keep the guide data coming.

Now subsidizing hardware is a separate issue altogether. I have no problem with that, but it should be clearly associated with the hardware being sold. People re-activing old equipment they've got collecting dust or equipment they buy off of ebay (or full-price unsubsidized brand new equipment from TiVo or Best Buy or whomever), should pay that $10/month rate I suggested above. If they want to tack on a one-time $25 activation fee or something like that for previously deactivated equipment (i.e., it should be waved on new equipment purchases), I don't think anyone would complain much about that, either.

If they want to offer the option of subsidizing new hardware, that's great too.

[lindylicious]

If they're going to force you to pay the new rates, upgrade to a "free" new TiVo. You're paying for it, so don't short change yourself.

I'm in the process of putting a bigger drive in my 40 hour Series 2. If TiVo made me pay the new prices, I wouldn't bother upgrading the box. I would get the new "free" 80 hour TiVo instead.


For the guy who talked about KidZone being an upgrade, that useless piece of :eek: made my TiVo slower and have many other problems. I also lost some functionality that I used, like holding down the button and having the dates scroll when I change the keep until date. Now I have to press for each day.

[HDTiVo]

For the guy who talked about KidZone being an upgrade, that useless piece of :eek: made my TiVo slower and have many other problems. I also lost some functionality that I used, like holding down the button and having the dates scroll when I change the keep until date. Now I have to press for each day.

But KidZ love to press buttons on remotes - and they love to push their parents' buttons.

Maybe thats the making of a new strategy for TiVo. TiVo - The DVR For KidZ.
:cool:

[KoG]

If they're going to force you to pay the new rates, upgrade to a "free" new TiVo. You're paying for it, so don't short change yourself.


That's probably the best way to look at it. Once your commitment is up, just go take a look at Tivo.com and see what new bundled 3-year package they have and buy it. If you use it for a year and want to move onto something else, just eBay it as a unit with 2 years of service remaining. That's gotta be worth something to someone out there.

[ChuckyBox]

If they're going to force you to pay the new rates, upgrade to a "free" new TiVo. You're paying for it, so don't short change yourself.

The only box that is truly "free" is the 80-hour ST, which is going away. All the others have an upgrade fee associated with them, so your idea only works if you want the low-end box. Your plan also assumes that TiVo will be subsidizing boxes in the future to the same extent that they do now, which is by no means guaranteed.

[TydalForce]

Cost to manufacture the single tuner 80 hour box is only gonna get cheaper, so there's no harm in keeping it around as the free box as long as it's still usable. Charge a little more for the Dual Tuner, and up from there.

Offering something free is a good way to attract new users. Then, give them some options to go up from there. The options and pricing may change, but I think TiVo will keep a free box around.

[bicker]

Cost to manufacture the single tuner 80 hour box is only gonna get cheaper, so there's no harm in keeping it around as the free box as long as it's still usable.Except to the extent it keeps customers from purchasing more profitable offerings.

Offering something free is a good way to attract new users.They could offer a few months of service free. The turn-around time for new customers to purchase their second TiVo is perhaps too long for any marketing-related value, given the financial pressures the company faces.

[lindylicious]

The only box that is truly "free" is the 80-hour ST, which is going away.
Nevertheless (a) it exists at this very moment and (b) it has a bigger drive than my Series 2 had Monday.

All the others have an upgrade fee associated with them, so your idea only works if you want the low-end box. Your plan also assumes that TiVo will be subsidizing boxes in the future to the same extent that they do now, which is by no means guaranteed.
My plan assumes no such thing. My plan was a suggestion (a) what srauly might want to do now and (b) what a new TiVo user should do now instead of buying a used 40 hour or 80 hour box on ebay. If you have to sign up for one of the new subscription plans, take the new "free" TiVo instead of using the 40 hour Series 2 gathering dust in the closet. You're paying extra for the "free" box, so take it.

Whatever happens in the future with promotions or rebates will not retroactively erase the deal they get now.

[HDTiVo]

Nevertheless (a) it exists at this very moment and (b) it has a bigger drive than my Series 2 had Monday.


My plan assumes no such thing. My plan was a suggestion (a) what srauly might want to do now and (b) what a new TiVo user should do now instead of buying a used 40 hour or 80 hour box on ebay. If you have to sign up for one of the new subscription plans, take the new "free" TiVo instead of using the 40 hour Series 2 gathering dust in the closet. You're paying extra for the "free" box, so take it.

Whatever happens in the future with promotions or rebates will not retroactively erase the deal they get now.
You can pretty much write the TiVo Troll off as far as opinion goes.

[classicX]

You could have bought a simple recorder and saved a bunch of money!!

;)

Or you could just switch to Geico. :p

[ChuckyBox]

Nevertheless (a) it exists at this very moment and (b) it has a bigger drive than my Series 2 had Monday.


My plan was a suggestion (a) what srauly might want to do now and

How does the hard drive in your TiVo have any effect on what srauly might want to do? srauly has an existing service contract and is trying to decide if he should keep it. The answer is that he should (which is the same conclusion you came to with your box), at least until he evaluates the alternatives he's interested in.


(b) what a new TiVo user should do now instead of buying a used 40 hour or 80 hour box on ebay. If you have to sign up for one of the new subscription plans, take the new "free" TiVo instead of using the 40 hour Series 2 gathering dust in the closet. You're paying extra for the "free" box, so take it.
Well, yeah. If you are a new sub, that's the way to go. I thought this thread was about people with preexisting monthly service.


Whatever happens in the future with promotions or rebates will not retroactively erase the deal they get now.
No, but current subscribers are grandfathered in to the old pricing as long as they don't cancel their service, so I assumed you were talking about future subs who reach the end of their contracts. My mistake.

[Stormspace]

I'm still wondering what's going to happen when my S2DT goes off the bundle deal. I was told that it would go to 12.95 when I bought it. I'm not excited about having to go to a three year commitment to get that rate.

[HDTiVo]

I'm still wondering what's going to happen when my S2DT goes off the bundle deal. I was told that it would go to 12.95 when I bought it. I'm not excited about having to go to a three year commitment to get that rate.
When it happens, please respond to this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=331240

[classicsat]

[QUOTE=ChuckyBox]
and what is the value to the company?
[quote]
Coroprate Good Will mostly. It will keep boxes out of landfill and provide some revenue by not having to subsidize.

[ChuckyBox]

Coroprate Good Will mostly. It will keep boxes out of landfill and provide some revenue by not having to subsidize.
I wasn't saying that there was no benefit to the company, just that you had to weigh that against the cost. I think there would be benefit in goodwill, but also in lower costs and customer retention. But keep in mind that we are proposing a system that will have some customers paying less than they might otherwise be enticed to pay, so TiVo would have to consider how many people would take the new pricing plus those who would leave against those who would take the old pricing if it were offered.

[bicker]

You can pretty much write the TiVo Troll off as far as opinion goes.Says the biggest TiVo Troll of all.