Advertisement at end of "Rudolph" - never seen this kind before

[samo]

I hate to bring this point up again, but it is after all a chunk of TiVo's income.
And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets. Do you care how much profit Walmart makes?
Do you shop at any store thinking that if they don't make enough profit they will close down? Do you want to pay extra to your phone or cable company to improve their bottom line?

[Stu_Bee]

This is like someone you invited into your own leaving a continuous trail of litter in your living room. Even though it goes away on its own, it's still there, you still see it, and you can't do anything about it.

Dude..what's going on at your house?

[maki]

And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets. Do you care how much profit Walmart makes?
Do you shop at any store thinking that if they don't make enough profit they will close down? Do you want to pay extra to your phone or cable company to improve their bottom line?

I'm interested in business. I like certain businesses. TiVo is one. It's just nice to see something you like be successful.

Maybe if my TiVo started randomly stopping my shows and showing ads, I'd be annoyed. This issue, though, hardly constitutes a complaint. Again, it's obvious that everyone has their own level of concern about it.

[ChuckyBox]

And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets.
Why are you so bitter about this? You bring is up at every opportunity. It's not like TiVo is the only company whose execs made money before their stockholders did (if they ever did). The gutters of Wall Street are littered with much worse than TiVo. Why would you care in TiVo's case unless you are a stockholder or an ex TiVo exec that didn't get to write himself a bonus?

[ChuckyBox]

I'm not sure what all the fuss here is about. TiVo says in the service contract that you are going to get ads. And the company is going to keep experimenting with them until they find a formula that works optimally for them. ("Them" not "you.") If you really, really can't stand the ads -- and I recognize that there are people who actually feel this way -- you should use another DVR service, because it isn't going to end and it is likely to get more prominent as time goes on.

This latest approach seems like a winner -- it is very low impact on the users who aren't interested, but it gives users the opportunity to view an ad or other "sponsored content" at the end of every show. So it is much more visible than the showcases (which is good for TiVo) but it is less annoying than the "thumbs" or other video overlay advertising (which is good for viewers). But that's my opinion, and I know that others don't agree. But, again, if you find these ads offensive, you really should dump the service, because it is going to get much, much worse for you.

[dswallow]

But, again, if you find these ads offensive, you really should dump the service, because it is going to get much, much worse for you.
So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.

[Y-ASK]

It just seems so insignificant, you have to be a real fuss to care.
You are entitled to your opinion and, although I disagree with, it is welcome here. But if you feel the need to put other member's opinions down and call them names "a real fuss", that is something quite different. Now before this turns ugly and I tell you to go F*** yourself, I would 1st like to say please don't turn this into a discussion that turns nasty. Just because you disagree with the position some of us have taken doesn't mean that we are wrong for feeling the way we do. So how would you like to proceed from here, a civil discussion or the UFC :)?

Y-ASK

Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".

[maki]

Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".

You're right. My point was made by saying everyone has their personal level of concern and calling people with higher levels a "fuss" wasn't necessary. Easy to get carried away. :o

[ChuckyBox]

So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.
I would need to see "slippery slope" defined in this particular context in order to agree that this is one.

But to the extent that TiVo can put more ads on the boxes without causing mass defections, they will attempt with great energy to do so. Obviously their goal will be to find content and techniques that people like and respond to (as that will be what their ad clients want), while not freaking out a large number of customers with obnoxious, intrusive stuff (as that will cause a loss of customers and customer goodwill).

Again, I realize that some people feel TiVo has already crossed the obnoxious-intrusive line. For you, things will only get worse. For those who don't find the current stuff an issue, most of it will probably be at a similar level of intrusiveness. Once in a while (like with the banners) they may freak everybody out, but they'll likely pull back from those particular techniques pretty quickly.

(Speaking of the banners, I expect they will be back. They were probably too much too soon, but as people get used to the "thumbs" and then bigger "thumbs" and then even bigger "thumbs" with moving graphics, etc., pretty soon it will just be normal to see banners over the FF material.)

[maki]

Obviously their goal will be to find content and techniques that people like and respond to (as that will be what their ad clients want), while not freaking out a large number of customers with obnoxious, intrusive stuff (as that will cause a loss of customers and customer goodwill).

This will be the challenge, as it seems most people who oppose what they've done so far do not approve of advertising anywhere in the TiVo interface.

[Y-ASK]

This will be the challenge, as it seems most people who oppose what they've done so far do not approve of advertising anywhere in the TiVo interface.
For myself, this certainly is not signficant enough for me to drop Tivo or it's wonderful UI, but Tivo keeps trying to make some sort of Ad forcement work. I fear they are running out of unobtrusive options and may start experimenting with intrusive ones.

Complaining brings about public attention to the issue even though it may be considered insignificant to some. And it's fun to debate with Zeo :D

Y-ASK

[samo]

Why are you so bitter about this? You bring is up at every opportunity. It's not like TiVo is the only company whose execs made money before their stockholders did (if they ever did). The gutters of Wall Street are littered with much worse than TiVo. Why would you care in TiVo's case unless you are a stockholder or an ex TiVo exec that didn't get to write himself a bonus?
I'm not bitter, nor do I care about TiVo future. I just bring it up every time yet another poster brings up "TiVo needs more money". Everybody needs or wants more money as you correctly mentioned in your description of the companies in "the gutters of the Wall Street". But why should a consumer care about bottom line of the companies who are taken to the gutter by incompetent and greedy management?

[ufo4sale]

I'm not bitter, nor do I care about TiVo future. I just bring it up every time yet another poster brings up "TiVo needs more money". Everybody needs or wants more money as you correctly mentioned in your description of the companies in "the gutters of the Wall Street". But why should a consumer care about bottom line of the companies who are taken to the gutter by incompetent and greedy management?

Because if they don't then the company will no longer exist. Is that a good enough reason. Plus the more money the company makes the more they can reinvest in the company and the "better" the software.

[mergy]

Yes, I have a lifetime S2 as well. I also have a DT, and a Humax. I've bought TiVos for family as gifts. Referred others to it more than once.

Companies are always sneaking promotions into things, especially when it's a service. I don't understand why people are so specifically offended by ads they can ignore on their TiVo. It's a petty complaint.


Great logic.

I guess there are just different classes/types of Tivo users. Here is the thing, I bought Tivo as a way to remove some of the clutter and mess that has invaded the medium of TV. This recent move by Tivo devalues Tivo for me to the point that it is no longer helping me with my goals.

This is another step in the wrong direction for Tivo. It was one thing to bastardize the whole 'Showcase' area and make that worthless (yeah, show me more about the new Nissan Sentra or something lame). That initial bastardization obviously didn't work so they move to this - forcing me to see it.

Get ready for the next step when this doesn't cut it. Too bad they can't tweak this to let people who aren't bothered by this absorb more (like Mr. Petty here) while others who actually want to keep their systems less cluttered.

Mythdora has been downloaded, so seems like the whole roll your own DVR is getting much much easier.

[MickeS]

Because if they don't then the company will no longer exist. Is that a good enough reason. Plus the more money the company makes the more they can reinvest in the company and the "better" the software.
Exactly. The only reason I care about TiVo's future is because I want to make sure my box will keep working, and be updated.

[RoyK]

So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.

Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...

"On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."


The slope is well greased.

Link to full release here (http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/news/articles.asp?guid={6B6868B3-D3AD-41DD-94CE-897DAACBCD0F}&newsid=885210007&orig=charting&time=8&symb=TIVO&sid=157328&source=htx\http2_mw&source=htx\http2_mw)

[drew2k]

Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...

"On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."


The slope is well greased.

Link to full release here (http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/news/articles.asp?guid={6B6868B3-D3AD-41DD-94CE-897DAACBCD0F}&newsid=885210007&orig=charting&time=8&symb=TIVO&sid=157328&source=htx\http2_mw&source=htx\http2_mw)"... as they navigate through the TiVo interface ..."

I hadn't seen this quote but it looks like I was dead-on earlier when I posted there could be ad links on every menu page.

[ZeoTiVo]

You are entitled to your opinion and, although I disagree with, it is welcome here. But if you feel the need to put other member's opinions down and call them names "a real fuss", that is something quite different. Now before this turns ugly and I tell you to go F*** yourself,
Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".
ironic
"you have to be a real fuss" is about as annoying as the ad text on the delete screen.

The carefully implied yet not actually said "go F*** yourself" is about as annoying as continuously complaining about something yet doing nothing of real cosnequence about it.

I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.

[drew2k]

The carefully implied yet not actually said "go F*** yourself" is about as annoying as continuously complaining about something yet doing nothing of real cosnequence about it.

I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.What do you really expect people who don't like these banner ads to do that would satisfy you? Do you expect everyone to immediately cancel their service plans and sell their boxes on eBay?

Most people will not take such drastic actions until their anger or frustration has reached a tipping point, and that is usually only reached after dissatisfaction accumulates over a period of time, and still only after considering the alternative DVRs out there.

In the views of most people who post here, I'm sure TiVo is far and away the best DVR on the market, so if they could get equivalent functionality and reliability for a better or similar monthly fee, I'm sure people would vote with their wallets and cancel TiVo and let them know it's because of the ads. IMHO, however, it's a balancing act: pissing people off with ads can be counter-balanced by adding new features without raising rates, but those same people can also be further pissed off if ad links started to appear elsewhere in the TiVo interface (the famed "slippery slope").

I see nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction here at TCF, as this is a forum that is monitored by TiVo Inc, and complaints do not go unnoticed. It has already been mentioned in this thread that TiVo scaled back some advertising campaigns based on user feedback here at TCF, so I see posting on this forum as a legitimate action until a point someone reaches their tipping point.

[dswallow]

I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.
I hadn't realized it was required to announce such plans to be taken seriously.

I just finished downloading the MythDora distribution and burned a DVD from it and am currently copying some stuff off one of the disks on the computer I'm going to use to experiment with MythTV to my main system, then I'll be installing MythTV on it and testing it out for a few weeks with my 2-tuner OTA HDHomeRun (http://www.silicondust.com/zxc/content/view/5/26/) device.

If I'm happy with it, I'll build it out maybe with a second or third HDHomeRun.

For the last few weeks I've been experimenting with an HD Network Streaming device as well. Though there's at least one other model of this sort of thing I want to play with before making a decision about it.

In any event, the process is well underway to find a better solution than what is coming out of TiVo and DirecTV these days.

[RoyK]

I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.

Not a problem. Many of us don't think your postings are of any consequence either. They are amusing though I must admit.

[TiVoEvan74]

Yep, it sounds as if they are headed that way... lots of people don't care and if it ever becomes too intrusive for me, I'll sell our lifetime boxes and go for an Apple iTv with El Gato TV and a Mac Mini as the DVR. I could then easily hook up a backup hard drive and have both a massive drive to record shows on and no worries about losing TV shows.

For me, the dropping of lifetime subscriptions was the real jolt... I was on the verge of demonstrating TiVo and strongly encouraging family members to get one... after that, I dropped it. One family member specifically did NOT want another monthly fee. I suppose all the ad revenue will help them keep TiVo fees down... but who really clicks on the ads and buys stuff anyway? (Yeah, I know far too many people!)

[pdhenry]

I'm not sure how effective they are - every ad offered is already available in Showcases & I browse over there at least once a week. If there's something interesting I would have watched it anyway.

[Y-ASK]

I see I can still not take any posts complaining about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.
I not sure what more I could do to convince you of my legitimate concerns :confused: . I've posted many time before that I'm running Snapstream's BeyondTV 4.5. Seems that someone checking out MythTV was enough for you to justify their comments. And after all the time we (you and I) have spent on this board together surely (don't call me Shirley :)) you would have seen the numerous post where I've talked about my setup. If not let me refresh your memory:

Purchased the following in order to pursue a Tivo replacement:

Two Shuttle Barebone computers
Two Intel Processors 300 Ghz or above
2 Gb Memory
6 different video capture cards
2 Licenses of BeyondTV
2 IR Blasters
At least 5 or 6 200 GB or greater Hard Drives
Two External SCSI Drive chassis (6 Drives each) with Raid 5 on E-Bay used
3 DVD Burners, 2 DVD Players
Dell Poweredge 400SC setup to be a Media Server
Highend Video cards for computers
Etc.


And after all that what have I found? I've found that the Tivo User Interface is the best and it's very difficult to settle for 2nd best. It all centers around the remote control and extends from there. So when Tivo starts to mess with my menus after I've shelled out a ***** load of money supporting their business model it pisses me off and I come here to complain, amongist many other interactions on this site. So does that meet your requirements to be taken seriously? If not then you can follow the advice I thought about giving our young maki. :)

Y-ASK

And you know that just about everything I write is tougue-in-cheek so don't get your panties in a wade, I'm only joking with you...

[ZeoTiVo]

And after all that what have I found? I've found that the Tivo User Interface is the best and it's very difficult to settle for 2nd best. It all centers around the remote control and extends from there. So when Tivo starts to mess with my menus after I've shelled out a ***** load of money supporting their business model it pisses me off and I come here to complain, amongist many other interactions on this site. So does that meet your requirements to be taken seriously? If not then you can follow the advice I thought about giving our young maki. :)

Y-ASK

And you know that just about everything I write is tougue-in-cheek so don't get your panties in a wade, I'm only joking with you...

Well Maki may not be use to your rough jokes... That is a pretty harsh sentimnet in the online world.

You are saying the Tivo interface is the best after you have explored alternatives. What exactly about the interface has changed? Of course we all know that they have the yellow star that is ssupplied from tha part of the hard drive that has always been reserved for TiVo stuff. So no loss of recording space and one line of text on the main menu. The thumbs up ads that were so unobtrusive they do not sell many. (yes the tech is still there and they do show up still - I saw one for the Wii when it was in the yellow star rotation) and now the line of text on the delete screen and an extra option to watch it though they made sure no one had to chnage their remote habits.

So it is this interface that TiVo has repeatedly shown they will not change. By your own admission you would rather use that interface then another one without ads in it. That still says to me these ads are not as bad as all the complaining makes it seem. Have fun with that

[ZeoTiVo]

I see nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction here at TCF, as this is a forum that is monitored by TiVo Inc, and complaints do not go unnoticed. It has already been mentioned in this thread that TiVo scaled back some advertising campaigns based on user feedback here at TCF, so I see posting on this forum as a legitimate action until a point someone reaches their tipping point.
the only thing scaled back was putting ads where those messages from TiVo are. The ones you had to hit select on to clear the screen and get to the main menu. That changed how the TiVo was interacted with and I am confident TiVo will not do that again and all this "slippery slope" is about is TiVo finding other peices of screen real estate it can display some text on and give you the option to check out the ad.
The Thumbs are what others mentioned and there is absolutely no proof they were deliberately scaled back by TiVo. Some have just taken the fact that not many show up as that. Did TiVo deliberately scale back Product watch based on complaints? That would be the same logic. By the same logic of complaints being effective, TiVo should have TTG for Mac out. This is just a strawman argument based on supposition, not fact.
Again - I never in any post said people had to stop doing anything. I was doing quite the opposite and telling people to let TiVo know what the users were doing to move away from TiVo. Complaining does not change business facts but the userbase is the bottom line business fact for TiVo. Tha tis the one thing that will speak volumes to TiVo, inc.

[Y-ASK]

You are saying the Tivo interface is the best after you have explored alternatives. What exactly about the interface has changed?
Nothing has changed except the placement Ads. What I'm talking about when I say the Tivo UI is the best is kind of hard to explain. It's not just the menu or GUI, but the way the remote feels, the navigation thru the menus, the navigation during video play, the on screen guide, the search for shows capibility, etc. It's the way everything works together so well that provides the user with a untangable feeling and a nice viewing experience. I'm probably not doing it justice but that is kind of what I mean.

So it is this interface that TiVo has repeatedly shown they will not change. By your own admission you would rather use that interface then another one without ads in it. That still says to me these ads are not as bad as all the complaining makes it seem. Have fun with that
Can you point out in this thread where someone said that the new Ads were really intrusive to their viewing pleasure? I don't recall seeing that. I think most people (not meaning to speak for everyone) who've complained are more concerned that Tivo continues to pursue this advertising revenue course and aventually the Ads will become intrusive. I would consider Ads on several menu screens to be intrusive. For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.

But if it makes you feel better, the Ads are not as bad as YOU think everyone is making them out to be...

Y-ASK

And I wasn't joking with Maki. I took offense to his over zealous response but we've moved beyond that, I'm good with Maki. You on the other hand can kiss my "pretty harsh sentiment" butt. :D

[ZeoTiVo]

For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.
Now we get to the heart of the matter. many are complaining about the principal of the issue instead of what the reality is. That was my conclusion when at first none and now some few are actually doing anything to give up a device that makes use of ads for revenue. So we are in agreement. You can kiss my butt on principal then ;)

[Y-ASK]

Now we get to the heart of the matter. many are complaining about the principal of the issue instead of what the reality is.
What you fail to understand is that it's the reality that has caused the complaints which are based on principle, not instead of...

Y-ASK

[Stormspace]

Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...

"On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."


The slope is well greased.

Link to full release here (http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/news/articles.asp?guid={6B6868B3-D3AD-41DD-94CE-897DAACBCD0F}&newsid=885210007&orig=charting&time=8&symb=TIVO&sid=157328&source=htx\http2_mw&source=htx\http2_mw)

Yesterday I decided to look at the showcase area. I never go there, however with all the new ads being slathered onto my TiVo I thought I'd see what train wreck was in that section now. Wow! That's where all these ads are going. Granted most seemed to be trailers for new shows, but the ads were there as well. It was an interesting surprise.

[megazone]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Young grasshopper, you're mistaken. Gather round while I tell you of a wonderful place that existed a long time ago. A place known as ad-free tivo. You see, in the beginning, there were no ads, none, nada; not even the hint of them. Then something horrible happened one day, I believe it was around version 2.5.something, where the first ad appeared in the form of a star (or something like that, too long ago I can't hardly remember anymore). The rest is history. You can ask around for the details... And yes, I've been a customer that long.So have I, and I remember the very first star.

Doesn't change my statement. Ads have always been a part of the service - it was there in the language. They didn't show up until later, but it was always part of the deal. Actually, even before the star, they did some promos as PTCMs, but that really drove people nuts.

I remember the backlash against the stars and dire predictions at the time, back in 2002. TiVo was going to die! People would stop subscribing in droves!

Yep.

[megazone]

Remember when Tivo toyed with placing ads during the fast-forward process? The overlaying ads disaster - remember that? It wasn't that long ago. Anyway, what happened? Outcry. It started here, and ended up being everywhere. What happened after that? Tivo started peeing down its leg, and gave up on the idea.Uh, no they didn't. FF ads are still in the TiVo, available to advertisers who want to use them. They never got a lot of use, and still don't.

[megazone]

You know, TiVo is going to keep adding ads - we all know it. I don't consider that a slippery slope, because I don't consider that a bad thing. I think calling it a slippery slope is silly, and I also think those who think they'll be stuffing ads in *everywhere* like some NASCAR uniform are insane. But I think there are ways to add ads without being intrusive about it, and they'll do more of it until they find a balance. Too many ads turns people off and makes the ads less effective anyway.

But they're going to keep doing it, and the same people will continue to complain about it, but that's it. Very few of the people complaining will ever cancel their service and switch to something else, so there is no reason for TiVo not to do it.

[dswallow]

Actually, even before the star, they did some promos as PTCMs, but that really drove people nuts.
Well, duh! You said it yourself... :p

What do you think would've happened if people didn't complain as much as they did about those ads?

[RoyK]

Very few of the people complaining will ever cancel their service and switch to something else, so there is no reason for TiVo not to do it.

Yup.TiVo is doing all the right things to increase their subscriber base by leaps and bounds - introducing KidZone (which was met with resounding yawns by most of the user base) at the expense of severely crippling the GUI, introducing a new pricing structure that three out of four of the users here (arguably their strongest fanbase) have said that they would not have signed up to, and now polluting the interface with more ads with the explicit promise of even more yet to come. Way to go TiVo. I'm sure that gobs of new users will forgo the less expensive but still adequate choices in order to give you their money.

[ZeoTiVo]

Well, duh! You said it yourself... :p

What do you think would've happened if people didn't complain as much as they did about those ads?ummm - there was massive complaints about the yellow stars but that is still there. If complaints alone would induce TiVo to do something then the FSI would now today be a prominent feature

[Billy66]

Ok, complaints alone won't Zeo, but answer his question. What would have happened without them? Would they have kept or expanded PTCM's? Would they see the lack of push back as an ok from the user base?

The star is still there, but the question that you didn't answer is would it be more ads if there were no or fewer complaints?

[ZeoTiVo]

Ok, complaints alone won't Zeo, but answer his question. What would have happened without them? Would they have kept or expanded PTCM's? Would they see the lack of push back as an ok from the user base?

The star is still there, but the question that you didn't answer is would it be more ads if there were no or fewer complaints?

the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.

[RoyK]

the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.

Hey. At last we agree on something.
Merry Christmas Zeo.

[ZeoTiVo]

Hey. At last we agree on something.
Merry Christmas Zeo.
And a Happy New Year :up:

[Billy66]

the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.

Is that an answer?

What do *you* think would have happened if there were no PTCM complaints or yellow star complaints?

Do you not think the PTCM complaints re-directed their efforts to non-intrusive types of advertising?

Seriously, answer the questions directly. The romantic rememberance of the Tivo vision is nonrepsonsive.

[GoHokies!]

For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.

I am virtually certain that the costs for these ads will be more than made up for by the revenue that they bring in (or at least Tivo believes this to be true).

I seriously doubt that Tivo would say "Hey! Let's take the time to do something that will exnd up costing us money in the long run, and piss off our users at the same time!!!"

[MighTiVo]

Too bad the subscription prices aren't going down as TiVo identifies other sources of revenue...

[Atomike]

I think calling it a slippery slope is silly

Good grief.
I wish folks would pay attention. The slippery slope is a term used in logic - and has a specific meaning which has already been discussed completely. If you don't think it's a slippery slope, I don't think you know what one is.
Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.

[ZeoTiVo]

Is that an answer?

What do *you* think would have happened if there were no PTCM complaints or yellow star complaints?

Do you not think the PTCM complaints re-directed their efforts to non-intrusive types of advertising?

Seriously, answer the questions directly. The romantic rememberance of the Tivo vision is nonrepsonsive. I think PTCMs would have still gone away without any complaints at all. PTCMs were just a quick fix and I am not sure any of them were serious ads anyway. Anyone know if they ever had an ad for say a TV or a car or whatever. I bet they were promotions closely related to TiVo.
Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.

just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking or on the internet you close them or get software to keep them away. it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.

[MighTiVo]

Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.

A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?

[Einselen]

We live in an ad society. Any item you order from Amazon.com has an ad stuffed in the box. I paid for the product, I paid for shipping (prime) so why is there an ad in the box? Ads keep prices/fees/etc. down. I did promo items for my college organization and we got some free items because it had some company logo on it. Thanks to a bank we have free sewing kit. It sucks, but it is life.

[ashu]

A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?

But would you roll? And, even more important, would you gather moss?

[Billy66]

I think PTCMs would have still gone away without any complaints at all. PTCMs were just a quick fix and I am not sure any of them were serious ads anyway. Anyone know if they ever had an ad for say a TV or a car or whatever. I bet they were promotions closely related to TiVo.
Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.

just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking or on the internet you close them or get software to keep them away. it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.


Thanks. You're entitled, it's not my opinion, but I appreciate you digging into it.

[dswallow]

We live in an ad society. Any item you order from Amazon.com has an ad stuffed in the box. I paid for the product, I paid for shipping (prime) so why is there an ad in the box? Ads keep prices/fees/etc. down. I did promo items for my college organization and we got some free items because it had some company logo on it. Thanks to a bank we have free sewing kit. It sucks, but it is life.
But you can throw away the ad and never see it again when you look into the box.

[drew2k]

just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking [...]Exactly. Everyone knows where their menu options are, and what to do to utilize them. For instance, to turn on Closed Captioning, I go to the "Settings" menu and then hit "Page Down" to get to the bottom option, "Video", and I can then enable CC.

it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.Yet TiVo has promised that they intend to extend ads throughout the interface, just like on the Delete Program page. No one knows exactly what this means, but I have suggested that this could result in an ad on every menu page if TiVo gets good click-responses on the current Delete Program ads.

If this occurs, and an ad is at the bottom of each menu, I will no longer be able to simply hit Page Down to get to Video, which means TiVo has altered their user interface. Ultimately, no one but TiVo Inc. knows what will happen, but this is the slippery slope many of us talk about when we ask, "Where will it end?"

[ChuckyBox]

A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?
How about a wheelchair ramp coated in axle grease?

It is silly to insist on a strict rhetorical definition of "slippery slope" when this isn't a strict rhetorical venue.

[ChuckyBox]

If this occurs, and an ad is at the bottom of each menu, I will no longer be able to simply hit Page Down to get to Video, which means TiVo has altered their user interface.
By that logic, TiVo should never add new features or improve the organization of the interface.

[drew2k]

By that logic, TiVo should never add new features or improve the organization of the interface.I was just following up on Zeo's train of thought regarding ads: ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking
His first paragraph was probably more important for me to quote (emphasis added by me):
Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.Using my example of getting to the Video menu, if an ad appears on the bottom of the Settings menu, it interferes with how I use the DVR.

(Of course, everyone will point to his last sentence as justification for TiVo to do this [put ads on menus].)

[Einselen]

But you can throw away the ad and never see it again when you look into the box.

This is true, but that was not really the point of my post. I was just mentioning that there are ads everywhere you look now a days and that is what companies use to subsidized costs.

I ask (though I know it could change), how many ads have you seen on the delete. I watch a crap load of shows, about 3 or 4 per day, and I have seen only 1 so far.

[ZeoTiVo]

I was just following up on Zeo's train of thought regarding ads:
His first paragraph was probably more important for me to quote (emphasis added by me):
Using my example of getting to the Video menu, if an ad appears on the bottom of the Settings menu, it interferes with how I use the DVR.

(Of course, everyone will point to his last sentence as justification for TiVo to do this [put ads on menus].)

I would doubt they would put ads on the Messages and Settings page, mainly because that is not a high traffic area. Advertising of course is baout how many eyes see it and then how many act on it.

Now your point on a yellow star at the bottom of a Yellow Star at the bottom is valid on its own merit. But really if TiVo was looking to get ads everywhere they already have yellow star code and could have a long time ago spread them to other menus. but how many menus get a lot of daily use? That is what Tivo is looking for - up the eye count, try and induce more click through.
adding ds to other menus just does not do that when you have the TiVo button to get to now playing and can set up season passes maybe 3 times in the year and get 99% of the shows you wnat to record.

This goes back to effective marketing. You can not just spray ads everywhere and think that is more effective. It is not - the internet ad bust proved that.

and TiVo understands they have a great interface - they will not cross a line to mess up that great interface, even if no one complained

[garydw]

Why does TIVO need to have ads? You pay a monthly fee for the Tivo service which is to be a DVR, and to provide a program guide.

Now Dish Network has DVR's and I pay no fee for the DVR service, and I pay no extra fee fro the program guide. There is no advertising on my Dish Network DVR. So the only time I have to deal with commercials is if I record a program on a channel that has commercials.

Same thing applies to my Directv dvr.

Same thing applies to my Comcast dvr.

And that is why I no longer use TIVO, and no longer subscribe to their overpriced service. And before any one tells me I am missing features that are only found on Tivo, I can't find one thing that my current DVR's cannot do, and I have never missed a program on my Dish, Direct, or Comcast DVR's.

Gary

[CrispyCritter]

Good grief.
I wish folks would pay attention. The slippery slope is a term used in logic - and has a specific meaning which has already been discussed completely. If you don't think it's a slippery slope, I don't think you know what one is.
Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.I'll chime in as a newcomer to this conversation. I think your position is ridiculous; there's no way I consider this a slippery slope. But different people have different ideas of meanings of words....

TiVo has announced from the earliest years that the long-term plans are for advertising to contribute 50% of TiVo's revenues. They've discussed their plans to grow advertising revenue at every quarterly report that I've ever heard. They are not in the least bit anti-advertising; instead they are pro-targeted-advertising - people should only see commercials/links that there's a good chance they are interested in.

This is not a case of TiVo changing their position a little bit at a time towards some unstated final goal (a slippery slope). This is TiVo following up on their very public, long-held position that they want to increase opportunities for targeted advertising. TiVo's position is not shifting.

Whether you like their position is a different issue. I personally don't have any objection as long as I don't have to pay attention to any advertising that I don't want to. And with the exception of the very short-lived PCTMs (sp?), so far I haven't had to. Eg, I've followed up on some gold stars that I'm interested in, and ignored most.

[ChuckyBox]

Now Dish Network has DVR's and I pay no fee for the DVR service, and I pay no extra fee fro the program guide. There is no advertising on my Dish Network DVR. So the only time I have to deal with commercials is if I record a program on a channel that has commercials.

Same thing applies to my Directv dvr.

Same thing applies to my Comcast dvr.

On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.

So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.

[ZeoTiVo]

On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.

So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.
but only because the cable co DVRs are happy to get the DVR functionality working, let alone throw in some code to show ads ;)
Also if only TiVo could provide broadcast content at 70$ a month, they could then drop that overpriced subscription fee.

[dswallow]

On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.

So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.
1) I have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, so I don't pay any DVR fee. I hear there's other people who have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, too. :)

2) I subscribe to Total Choice Premiere, so I don't pay any DVR fee (if I didn't already not pay because of lifetime above), though I suppose arguably it's part of the package price.

3) DirecTV has the yellow-star ads on the TiVo main menu; I don't believe they're anywhere else. I'm not sure about the NDS version.

4) Yes, DirecTV gets to place advertising on many channels as well as part of carriage deals, so you'll regularly see DirecTV PPV ads or other channel promos, but those are arguably not all that "commericially" like a local cable company inserting ads for a used car dealer or local car wash, etc.

[lindylicious]

On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV?
I think it's called Earth.

[ChuckyBox]

Also if only TiVo could provide broadcast content at 70$ a month, they could then drop that overpriced subscription fee.
No kidding. And, of course, none of that programming you're paying $70/month for has any ads in it. Why should there be ads in something you're paying a subscription fee for? That's ridiculous and outrageous. No one would put up with that.

[RoyK]

No kidding. And, of course, none of that programming you're paying $70/month for has any ads in it. Why should there be ads in something you're paying a subscription fee for? That's ridiculous and outrageous. No one would put up with that.

Sure it does - but one of the reasons I bought TiVo was to skip them!

[ChuckyBox]

1) I have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, so I don't pay any DVR fee. I hear there's other people who have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, too. :)

Really? They gave you that lifetime service for free? There was no fee associated with it? That's great! Can I get it, too?


2) I subscribe to Total Choice Premiere, so I don't pay any DVR fee (if I didn't already not pay because of lifetime above), though I suppose arguably it's part of the package price.
Yeah, it's "arguable." But only in the way where you're actually paying for it.


3) DirecTV has the yellow-star ads on the TiVo main menu; I don't believe they're anywhere else. I'm not sure about the NDS version.

I believe they have "thumbs" ads, as well. They also have an ongoing development contract with TiVo (yes, still, and for the next three years), so you're likely to see anything that works on the SA TiVos show up on the DTiVos.


4) Yes, DirecTV gets to place advertising on many channels as well as part of carriage deals, so you'll regularly see DirecTV PPV ads or other channel promos, but those are arguably not all that "commericially" like a local cable company inserting ads for a used car dealer or local car wash, etc.
For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.

[ZeoTiVo]

Sure it does - but one of the reasons I bought TiVo was to skip them! yes, and you still get to skip them just the same way you could in 2002

[RoyK]

yes, and you still get to skip them just the same way you could in 2002

Only to have wonderful things like "Man goes nuts in office", "Win a $25,000 Diamond Necklace", and "We are Marshall" stuck in my face everytime I visit TiVo Central, MasterCard tossed up when I finish watching a recording, Burger King, Chevrolet, Mastercard, and others clogging Showcases and what next?

[drew2k]

Really? They gave you that lifetime service for free? There was no fee associated with it? That's great! Can I get it, too?Lifetime is no longer available for DirecTV, just as it is no longer available for TiVo. Surely you knew that?

Yeah, it's "arguable." But only in the way where you're actually paying for it.What's arguable? DirecTV does not have to waive the DVR fee for Premiere subscribers - it's an enticement to get their customers to subscribe to a higher package. They could choose tomorrow to start charging the DVR fee to everyone, but until they do, there is no DVR fee for Premiere customers, and I don't even see an argument to be made otherwise.

I believe they have "thumbs" ads, as well. They also have an ongoing development contract with TiVo (yes, still, and for the next three years), so you're likely to see anything that works on the SA TiVos show up on the DTiVos.Yes, DirecTV TiVo units have thumb-ads. And you're right, we're just as likely to see SA TiVo features show up on DirecTV units as you are to see ads on every menu. (Fortunately, however, we are still lacking the gawd-awful bright-red TV-Guide logo on our Guide screens. Something to be thankful for!)

For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.I'm not sure what your point was here, but I'm still a little damp from the dripping sarcasm.

[ChuckyBox]

I'm not sure what your point was here, but I'm still a little damp from the dripping sarcasm.
And yet you completely missed it in the first thing you quoted.

[drew2k]

And yet you completely missed it in the first thing you quoted.I already said in the sentence you quoted that I didn't know what your point was, but it's good of you to repeat that I still missed your point.

[dswallow]

For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.
I've been through very lengthy arguments over this very thing in the past with regard to Sirius and how they at times do a lot of promotion for other programs or other Sirius channels; I do consider those "commercials" but they don't. :) And in a way, I can see the point or at least the differentiation; I'm already paying for it, so they're not really selling me anything, they're just trying to get me to utilize what I'm already paying for.

To me, the simple measure is just the annoyance factor. Just seeing it is annoying; it being obnoxious adds a little more annoyance; it being repeated often adds further annoyance. And so forth.

So really most any ad in the program stream isn't going to be all that annoying because I'm gonna 30-second skip past it pretty quick; usually that means the only ads that even have a chance to rate on the annoyance scale are those at the beginning and at the end. Nonetheless, an ad for some specific programming on some channel coming up isn't that bad, they tend to be relatively calm, they aren't all that repetitive, and they usually aren't screaming in your face at high volume levels, either.

And I've never gotten all that upset over yellow-star ads because I almost never go to the menu where they appear; I go direct to Now Playing with the List button, and I do most all my season pass and recording configuration via TiVoWeb Plus on my computer.

[ZeoTiVo]

And I've never gotten all that upset over yellow-star ads because I almost never go to the menu where they appear; I go direct to Now Playing with the List button, and I do most all my season pass and recording configuration via TiVoWeb Plus on my computer. ah, so basically you are upset becasue they found a place to put the line of ad text you can not avoid ;)

[dswallow]

ah, so basically you are upset becasue they found a place to put the line of ad text you can not avoid ;)
Ignorance is bliss. :)

Though technically, I would rarely see those even if they did appear on my HR10-250's. Almost every recording is padded automatically so I'm exiting the playback of it before it's close enough to the end to give me that page delete or save page prompt.

[ChuckyBox]

I already said in the sentence you quoted that I didn't know what your point was, but it's good of you to repeat that I still missed your point.
Not the point, the sarcasm.

[megazone]

Yup.TiVo is doing all the right things to increase their subscriber base by leaps and bounds - introducing KidZone (which was met with resounding yawns by most of the user base) at the expense of severely crippling the GUI, introducing a new pricing structure that three out of four of the users here (arguably their strongest fanbase) have said that they would not have signed up to, and now polluting the interface with more ads with the explicit promise of even more yet to come. Way to go TiVo. I'm sure that gobs of new users will forgo the less expensive but still adequate choices in order to give you their money.You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.

Standalone sales were up last quarter, the first year over year increase in several quarters. KidZone has lead *directly* to a large number of cooperative marketing efforts which contributed to that. And it was a key feature in closing the RadioShack retail deal, which gave TiVo 3,000 new points of sale. KidZone was, and is, very important to the company. Just because not everyone uses it doesn't mean it isn't worth it to TiVo.

TiVo has also reported, on the last con call, that initial response to the new pricing was positive, with a uptick and sales. So some people don't like it, that's life. No pricing scheme will make everyone happy, the goal is increased sales and so far it is working. Hardcore fanatics are not good as a litmus test, because they tend to be extreme in their views, including intolerance of things they don't like.

And ads - Comcast's DVR has ads that are a lot more in your face. I've seen more comments around the net from people saying they don't have a problem with the new ads than the handful of people complaining, and even most of those complaining admit they're not going to do anything to change their use. So it is hollow.

You just like to complain.

[samo]

You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.

Standalone sales were up last quarter, the first year over year increase in several quarters. KidZone has lead *directly* to a large number of cooperative marketing efforts which contributed to that.....
TiVo has also reported, on the last con call, that initial response to the new pricing was positive, with a uptick and sales.

You can use exactly same logic to explain decrease in net sub additions. Something like "initial response to the new pricing" was increase in cancellations of service.
Anybody can spin numbers to justify whatever new direction is. Only time can tell if latest pricing structure is a success. Same goes for ads.
It really doesn't matter how members of this forum react to new ads on delete screen. The real test is how advertisers will react to the number of views TiVo can produce and even more important - how much they will be willing to pay. All the TiVo advertising efforts to date did not produce material income, at least not enough to show it as a line in financial statements.
I have no idea how much TiVo wants or actually charges for these ads (if I was to invest in TiVo that would be a first thing on my list to check) but I can't imagine that TiVo can command substantial price. I was checking the price from my local affiliate last year for my own business and was really surprised that even network ads are reasonably priced. IIRC, the price was about $5/1000 views/30 sec. How many views per month do you think TiVo "non-intrusive" ads can generate? Even if TiVo charges 20 times more than TV stations (say 10 cents per view) the total bottom line will be negligible compare with subscription revenue.

[megazone]

You can use exactly same logic to explain decrease in net sub additions. Something like "initial response to the new pricing" was increase in cancellations of service.Since the net loss was due to DirecTiVo churn, how does that hold together? SA subs, the only subs the pricing applies to, had a net gain.

It really doesn't matter how members of this forum react to new ads on delete screen. The real test is how advertisers will react to the number of views TiVo can produce and even more important - how much they will be willing to pay. All the TiVo advertising efforts to date did not produce material income, at least not enough to show it as a line in financial statements.Agreed. But everything has to start somewhere, and TiVo has steadily signed up more advertisers over time, so they've been gaining traction slowly and steadily. Success breeds success, even if it is a minor success to start.

[samo]

Since the net loss was due to DirecTiVo churn, how does that hold together? SA subs, the only subs the pricing applies to, had a net gain.

Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K). But that doesn't matter. My point was that spin doctors can spin anything to sound positive or negative depending on desired effect.

[ChuckyBox]

I have no idea how much TiVo wants or actually charges for these ads (if I was to invest in TiVo that would be a first thing on my list to check) but I can't imagine that TiVo can command substantial price.
I doubt you could get a representative answer since much of what they do is testing with new programs or new customers, so I imagine there are a lot of deals cut just to get companies to try the service.

As near as I can figure, TiVo got about $8.8 million in advertising revenue in the last four quarters (on the standalone boxes -- the DTV boxes are near impossible to figure). But that number could easily be off by 10% or 15%. It's not spectacular yet, but for a company of TiVo's size, it isn't anything to scoff at, either.

When TiVo puts its ad management system on the bulk of Comcast and Cox DVRs in the next twelve months or so, all the groundwork they've done these past few years could pay off. Even at the current per sub revenue level, adding three or four times the audience makes for a decent revenue stream.

[ChuckyBox]

Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K). But that doesn't matter. My point was that spin doctors can spin anything to sound positive or negative depending on desired effect.
Spin doctors can't convince anybody who knows better. Like we all know that when you apply the exact same rate of churn to a bigger base of subscribers, you get a bigger total number of cancellations. Right?

[dswallow]

When TiVo puts its ad management system on the bulk of Comcast and Cox DVRs in the next twelve months or so, all the groundwork they've done these past few years could pay off. Even at the current per sub revenue level, adding three or four times the audience makes for a decent revenue stream.
I'd expect such revenue would probably be shared with Comcast/Cox, though. Even so it'd be a far more significant thing if they'd come to an agreement to place the TiVo firmware on all boxes rather than it just being a customer option (and a higher cost at that); that'd be a formidable potential market for advertisers, then.

[samo]

As near as I can figure, TiVo got about $8.8 million in advertising revenue in the last four quarters
Really? I would never guess that they got that much (I haven't done any research on a subject and I'm not questioning your numbers - just surprised that numbers are over a million and not reported as separate line). May I ask you how you derived these figures?

[Einselen]

May I ask you how you derived these figures?

Just a friendly PSA:

Remember kids, do not drink and derive.

Ok continue on with discussion.

[samo]

Spin doctors can't convince anybody who knows better. Like we all know that when you apply the exact same rate of churn to a bigger base of subscribers, you get a bigger total number of cancellations. Right?
Right. Except in this particular case total subs went up 12% and cancellations went up 29%. Total number of cancellations went up not because of scale on churn, but because of greater number of lifetimes taken of the active list. But if you don't mention details and ignore numbers in a body of the report, you can easily make a case for pricing structure being cause of extra cancellations. Just like you can make a case for KidZone causing extra sales if you forget a fact that TiVo is advertised now as a free box.

[megazone]

Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K).Ah, OK, we were just talking about different things - net adds year over year and net total subs year over year.

But the pricing change came after the end of the quarter that was reported, so it doesn't impact those figures at all. It was just a verbal comment on the call about what they'd see in the time from the change to the call.

[samo]

But the pricing change came after the end of the quarter that was reported, so it doesn't impact those figures at all. It was just a verbal comment on the call about what they'd see in the time from the change to the call.
It doesn't surprise me. People are suckers for a free staff. If "no payments for 2 years" works for furniture stores, then there is no reason why "free TiVo" wouldn't work.

[ChuckyBox]

I'd expect such revenue would probably be shared with Comcast/Cox, though. Even so it'd be a far more significant thing if they'd come to an agreement to place the TiVo firmware on all boxes rather than it just being a customer option (and a higher cost at that); that'd be a formidable potential market for advertisers, then.
The ad management software will go on the bulk of the Comcast and Cox DVRs, whether or not the customer opts for the "TiVo Experience" DVR software. The two things are very separate and distinct projects:

From the latest 10-Q:
"Pursuant to this agreement, the Company agreed to develop a TiVo-branded software solution for deployment on Comcast’s DVR platforms, which would enable any TiVo-specific DVR and networking features requested by Comcast, such as WishList ® searches, Season Pass ™ recordings, home media features, and TiVoToGo ™ transfers. In addition, the Company agreed to develop a TiVo Interactive Advertising Management System for deployment on Comcast platforms to enable the provision of local and national advertising to Comcast subscribers."

The Cox wording is similar. The exact nature of who gets to sell what, and how the revenue is shared, is unclear. (Though Tom Rogers did say somewhere, IIRC, that TiVo would sell national ads, and Comcast would sell local/regional ads.)

Re Comcast:
"TiVo will have the continuing right to sell certain types of advertising in connection with the TiVo service offered through Comcast. TiVo will also have a limited right to sell certain types of advertising on other Comcast DVR set-top boxes enabled with the TiVo Interactive Advertising Management System, subject to Comcast’s option to terminate such right in exchange for certain advertising-related payments [i.e., a percentage of the revenue -- CB]"

Re Cox:
"The Company will have the continuing right to sell certain types of advertising in connection with the TiVo service offered through Cox. The Company will also have a right to sell certain types of advertising on other Cox DVR set-top boxes enabled with the advertising management system."

[RoyK]

You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.

....

You just like to complain.

1. I believe I stated precisely what happened.

2. I have every right and reason to complain - I not only own my TiVos I also own TIVO.

[ZeoTiVo]

I was checking the price from my local affiliate last year for my own business and was really surprised that even network ads are reasonably priced. IIRC, the price was about $5/1000 views/30 sec. How many views per month do you think TiVo "non-intrusive" ads can generate? Even if TiVo charges 20 times more than TV stations (say 10 cents per view) the total bottom line will be negligible compare with subscription revenue.Number of viewers is important but having a targeted demographic and being able to quickly judge the reaction to the ad message in the form of click throughs and responses is gold. Also bear in mind that the demographic info can rest around the aggregate of what kinds of shows are recorded which is demographic data the advertisers already use. This is a key differentiator from the early days of click through ads on the internet which was a much broader and loosely based demographic.

[ChuckyBox]

May I ask you how you derived these figures?
With great difficulty and a few assumptions. Essentially, starting with the ARPU number TiVo gives, you can back out the non-paying lifetimes, then the paying lifetimes, then look at the variation in this residual ARPU as a function of what you think the average monthly sub revenue is (which includes monthly subs on different payment plans). If you knew this last thing exactly, of course, you'd have your number. But you don't. So you have to assume a certain stability of the mix in the existing subs base, and then iterate until you find something stable w.r.t. sub additions. It isn't pretty, but I've approached it from a few angles, and there are some other constraints, and $8.8 million +/- 15% is likely to catch the real number, and +/-30% is almost certain to.

A very quick-and-dirty approximation would be to look at raw ARPU for the last few quarters: $8.65, $8.88, $8.54, $8.82 (for Q3, Q2, Q1, Q4 FY06). Both of the low numbers were blamed on delays in ad revenue (and, to some extent this last quarter, on increasing end-of-amortization lifetime subs). But the big difference there, $.34, applied to 1.5 million subs gives you about $500k/month. If you attribute all of it to advertising revenue, and assume that Q1 wasn't zero, you get at least a few million for the TTM period.

As to why TiVo doesn't report this number, I have three theories: 1) the number isn't big and varies significantly quarter-to-quarter, so they don't want to give analysts anything more to freak out over every time there is a bump; 2) the number isn't terrible and is growing, and they don't want competitors to get a line on it; 3) if we know the ad revenue, we also know that the monthly sub fees have been falling (on a per-sub basis, largely because of the MSD) and they don't want analysts to freak out over that. Since the price increase should quickly halt the slide in per-sub average payment, and the ad number is getting too big to ignore, I'd expect to see it reported within the next few quarters.

[dswallow]

Unfortunately, analysts usually freak out just because. :)