Problem with one tuner on my S3

[hutchca]

I've only had my S3 for about one week and I just got the cablecards installed yesterday so I don't know if this has been a problem from the beginning or if it's a new problem with the cablecards.

Last night I was scanning channels and noticed that it would not lock on most of my upper analog channels. Most channels from ~50 - 88 just show a blank grey screen but they don't show the on-screen message you see when you tune to an empty channel. It's just the blank grey screen you see during the pause between changing channels only the channel never comes up.

After re-starting the TiVo and checking again I relaized that only one tuner had a problem with those channels. The other tuner will lock on all channels just fine.

Ordinarily I would suspect a weak cable signal but the other tuner has no problem and the picture looks strong and clear on those channels.

Could it be the cablecard even though those are analog channels?
Could this be a software bug? Anyone else have this problem?

[BTT]

Having fought my way through 6 tech. visits and approx. 9 decoder cards, rest assured your problem is with the cards. (I have had and continue to have) similar problems. My condition today is not nearlly as severe as yours but getting here was difficult. The history of good working CC is very poor!

[hutchca]

It would make sense that it's the card since I noticed the problem just after they were installed.
I'm just not 100% sure it wasn't happening before since it's only on one tuner, I could have been watching the other tuner on those channels before.

I'm a little surprised though since I assumed that the cable cards were only used for Digital channels and the Tivo used it's own analog tuners for channels below 100.

Is there a way to see which tuner you're presently on? I can't see any indication of tuner0/1 or a/b.
I though I might swap cablecards to see if the problem followed one but since I can't tell which one is which, there's no way to tell if the problem folows one card.

I suppose I could just take out one card and let it revert to single tuner mode then see if it can still tune those channels. Then swap cards and see if the problem goes with one card.
Maybe just re-seating the card will help anyway.

Is it safe to just plug and un-plug those cards on the fly?

[audiowurks]

I am experiencing the same problem, and I can't exactly pin-point where the problem is.

Background:
I have Comcast, in San Francisco. I have extended basic cable and two cablecards. Here in SF, Comcast broadcasts in a digital simulcast format, meaning a digital receiver (ie, an S3 Tivo) receives everything as a digital broadcast, even the "traditional analog" channels (channels less than 100).

The issue:
Tivo used to work fine. Then one day one of the two tuners stopped receiving channels 35 thru about 100. Blank black screen. I've had Comcast replace both CC's. No change. I've had Tivo replace the S3. No change.

I've called Tivo and their borderline useless tech support now claims that this is a known bug that a future SW update will fix. I find this a complete joke, since the whole thing USED to work just fine. This implies Tivo released a SW "update" that broke the box. Also, Tivo could not state when this SW update would be released. So overall, they were no help, not to mention that if this is true, what is going on is illegal-- their product is in violation of faithful advertising laws, as well as violating Sarbane-Oxley business practices.

It appears as if the issue is the cable cards, but Comcast claims is isn’t. You can determine which cable card is faulty by going into settings > cable cards > cable card (1 or 2) > test (or about this route). For me, one cable card tunes in everything, one doesn't get channels 35-100.

So given Tivo told me this is a known problem of theirs, and given cable card testing above tells me it is a cable card issue, and given Comcast doesn't think it is their problem... I don't know what to do. Get Comcast to give me a third set of cards?

Suggestions?

[hutchca]

I have Comcast also but I'm in the North Bay.
As far as I know, there is no digital simulcast. All channels below 100 are simple analog. You can see a difference in picture quality between the analog and digital channels (<100&>100) and I have no trouble with either tuner on any of the channels over 100.

I'll check out the cable card test menu when I get home and see what it shows.

I guess I can also try to use the signal strength meter on the sub 100 channels. That should tell me if they are analog or digital since I don't think the signal strength meter works on analog channels.

If it is the card, I guess I'll try calling Comcast and asking for a replacement card.
I just hate having to wait for the installer to show up.

[audiowurks]

The way I understand it, the cable card channel test only shows channels that are digital and that are being managed by that cable card. Since I can tune in every channel this way (on the working CC), then that tells me that all channels are being received as digital. This is digital simulcast, which is what the last Comcast guy at my place confirmed. I'd bet this is also true in your area. I think the signal strength meter will also confirm this theory (you will be able to test signal strength on what appear to be analog channels).

Like you, I have no problems with either tuner above 100.

The reason the channels "look worse" below 100 is because you are watching SD programming on those traditional "analog" channels, just embedded within a digital broadcast. A bit akin to taking a picture of a photograph with a digital camera.

I’d suggest also calling Tivo, as I will do (as well as Comcast) AGAIN. Even if it turns out to be yet another bad cable card, Tivo should know about this. Like I mentioned, they claim it is their problem (although I don’t heed much credit in anything they say since they don’t know what they are doing).

[Austin_Martin]

A search of the series 3 forum would have found that this is a common problem(analog channels not tuning on one tuner). Supposedly the next software update is supposed to fix it, although there are suggestions to phone TiVo to document the problem in case it doesn't.

[hutchca]

Ahh, sorry, I didn't use the search, I just scanned through the subject lines on the first page.

I'll search for other threads and perhaps I'll call TiVo if I have time.
However, it seems to me that if one card has no problem then there is some difference between the two and it must be possible to get another card that works as well as the first.
So I would think I'd get quicker results by calling Comcast.

[audiowurks]

However, it seems to me that if one card has no problem then there is some difference between the two and it must be possible to get another card that works as well as the first.
So I would think I'd get quicker results by calling Comcast.

Yes, one would think. But in my month and half of dealing with this, I'm beginning to think the error is downstream of the card and Tivo is returning faulty test results. In other words, the CC's are fine but Tivo is unable to properly utilize them. The reason I lean towards this is because 1- Tivo admitted they knew about this (albeit un-confidently) and 2- after replacing the entire Tivo, the problem was not resolved, and 3- the others on this forum with the same problems.

Regardless, one would think swapping the CC’s would give a clue – logically, if the fault does not follow the card, the fault would be downstream of the card. I tried this and then no tuner worked at all. I’m not considering this a conclusive test since I’m not certain if Comcast needs to re-initialize cards if you swap their positions. Therefore, I plan to do this test again, call Comcast, re-zap cards, and see if I get any clues.

[Austin_Martin]

audiowurks,

The problem with the analog tuner shouldn't have anything to do with the cc's. Cable cards will only help in decoding encrypted channels, and remapping some channel numbers. Other people have tested taking the cc's out, and they still have the same analog problems.

[Roderigo]

The way I understand it, the cable card channel test only shows channels that are digital and that are being managed by that cable card.
This is incorrect. The Test Channels screen will only show channels the cablecard has defined - both analog and digital.

You are correct that Signal Strength will only show digital channels.

There are three other ways to determine if a channel is digital or analog:

1) When you attempt to make a recording, can you get to the quality setting? If S3 doesn't have a quality setting, the channel is digital

2) In the banner, what audio icon do you see? If you see the speaker icon, it's an analog channel, if it's a dolby icon, it's digital (Not sure if this is set when you're looking at the channel that's not being tuned properly).

3) In the diagnostics screen (under account and system information), what modulation type is shown. I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure analog is listed as UNKNOWN.

While your cable company may be providing digital simulcast, there have been reports here that they don't always assign the simulcast channel plan to the cards correctly. If that's the case, figuring out how to get your cable company to turn on simulcast may be your quickest path to joy (as far as I've seen, this problem has only impacted analog channels - so with simulcast, you wouldn't run into the problem)

[hearncl]

This is incorrect. The Test Channels screen will only show channels the cablecard has defined - both analog and digital.

You are correct that Signal Strength will only show digital channels.

There are three other ways to determine if a channel is digital or analog:

1) When you attempt to make a recording, can you get to the quality setting? If S3 doesn't have a quality setting, the channel is digital

2) In the banner, what audio icon do you see? If you see the speaker icon, it's an analog channel, if it's a dolby icon, it's digital (Not sure if this is set when you're looking at the channel that's not being tuned properly).

3) In the diagnostics screen (under account and system information), what modulation type is shown. I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure analog is listed as UNKNOWN.

While your cable company may be providing digital simulcast, there have been reports here that they don't always assign the simulcast channel plan to the cards correctly. If that's the case, figuring out how to get your cable company to turn on simulcast may be your quickest path to joy (as far as I've seen, this problem has only impacted analog channels - so with simulcast, you wouldn't run into the problem)
In my location (Nashville, TN), Comcast is digitally simulcasting the analog channels. Although I have cablecards installed, the channels below 98 on my S3 are analog. This is indicated by Roderigo's tests, and if I try to measure signal strength, the channel being measured immediately jumps to 98. Based on my experience, it will be difficult to get the cable company to configure the cards to turn on simulcast for the analog channels. I called Comcast to see if this could be done, and the CSR didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

[audiowurks]

This is incorrect. The Test Channels screen will only show channels the cablecard has defined - both analog and digital.

You are correct that Signal Strength will only show digital channels.

There are three other ways to determine if a channel is digital or analog:

1) When you attempt to make a recording, can you get to the quality setting? If S3 doesn't have a quality setting, the channel is digital

2) In the banner, what audio icon do you see? If you see the speaker icon, it's an analog channel, if it's a dolby icon, it's digital (Not sure if this is set when you're looking at the channel that's not being tuned properly).

3) In the diagnostics screen (under account and system information), what modulation type is shown. I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure analog is listed as UNKNOWN.

While your cable company may be providing digital simulcast, there have been reports here that they don't always assign the simulcast channel plan to the cards correctly. If that's the case, figuring out how to get your cable company to turn on simulcast may be your quickest path to joy (as far as I've seen, this problem has only impacted analog channels - so with simulcast, you wouldn't run into the problem)

Thanks for the info, but I still don't fully agree.
I can cablecard test channels on all channels
I can use the signal strength meter on all channels
in the channel banner, I have dubly digital on all channels
within diagnostics, I'm getting QAM 256.

So... I really believe Tivo, in this area, is in digital simulcast mode. This would also explain the random digital pixelation (jpeg artifacting) I see on all channels from time to time.

Nonetheless, I still am not getting some channels on one tuner. I've done more testing tonite, and the fault follows the position of the cable card. This seems to imply I have yet another faulty cable card. Yet having been told so many conflicting things by both Commie Cast and Tivo, I don't know what to believe anymore!!!

This is the most half baked $1000 product I've ever seen. I've been fighting it for over a month now.

[Roderigo]

So... I really believe Tivo, in this area, is in digital simulcast mode. This would also explain the random digital pixelation (jpeg artifacting) I see on all channels from time to time.

Yup - based on your description is sounds like you're cards are properly set up for the digital simulcast. Minor correction - the Tivo isn't in digital simulcast mode. It's the cards... They just tell the S3 how to tune to any given channel number.


Nonetheless, I still am not getting some channels on one tuner. I've done more testing tonite, and the fault follows the position of the cable card. This seems to imply I have yet another faulty cable card.

Well, this definintely implicates Comcast (either the cards, or their configuration in the headend).

You need to tune to one of the offending channels on the "bad" card, and then go into the Conditional Access cablecard menu for that card. That may give a clue as to what's going on. Sounds like comcast screwed up, and somehow removed authorization for some channels on that card.

[hutchca]

I tested last night and confirmed that my channels below 100 are definitely ANALOG. Sonoma county doesn't appear to do digital simulcast.

I can only tune the signal strength meter to channels above 100 and channels below 100 allow me to record in low quality.

I used the cablecard test menu to confirm the problem is related to the first cablecard. Testing on that card won't tune to the high analog channels but when testing the other card it shows those channels fine.

So either the analog channels also go through the cablecard or there is some tivo issue related to the analog tuner that is up or downstream from that card slot.

Some others have wrote that swapping the cards will make them both stop working so I won't attempt that yet.

I hope TiVo releases software fix for this soon. It's not just a minor issue.
I can't control what tuner the tivo decides to use for any particular event so I have a 50% chance that any recording scheduled on those channels will fail.

[hearncl]

I tested last night and confirmed that my channels below 100 are definitely ANALOG. Sonoma county doesn't appear to do digital simulcast.

I can only tune the signal strength meter to channels above 100 and channels below 100 allow me to record in low quality.

I used the cablecard test menu to confirm the problem is related to the first cablecard. Testing on that card won't tune to the high analog channels but when testing the other card it shows those channels fine.

So either the analog channels also go through the cablecard or there is some tivo issue related to the analog tuner that is up or downstream from that card slot.

Some others have wrote that swapping the cards will make them both stop working so I won't attempt that yet.

I hope TiVo releases software fix for this soon. It's not just a minor issue.
I can't control what tuner the tivo decides to use for any particular event so I have a 50% chance that any recording scheduled on those channels will fail.
I don't think your missing analog channels are related to the cablecards. Quite a few people that don't have cards installed have reported this problem (missing analog channels on one tuner). In my case, I first noticed the missing channels after my cards were installed. TiVo exchanged my S3. The new one did not have missing channels, using the same cablecards (I did have to call Comcast and have them "hit" the cards again after putting them into the new S3). I suspect that the problem is in the TiVo hardware, perhaps a marginal internal splitter. It remains to be seen if a software update can fix this problem.

Because your channels below 100 are analog doesn't necessarily mean that your area doesn't have digital simulcast. It means that the cablecards are not configured to decode these channels. My area has digital simulcast but my S3, with cablecards, tunes these channels as analog. I also have a Motorola 3412 DVR, which has only digital tuners. It tunes the digital simulcast of these channels.

I agree it's not a minor issue. I missed some recordings because my S3 chose to use the wrong tuner.

[audiowurks]

You need to tune to one of the offending channels on the "bad" card, and then go into the Conditional Access cablecard menu for that card. That may give a clue as to what's going on. Sounds like comcast screwed up, and somehow removed authorization for some channels on that card.

Thanks Roderigo, for your suggestions. Getting into the Conditional Access menu, the "bad" card returns "disabled" whereas the good card returns "subscribed". A good clue.

I called Tivo. They said:

-- they know that some customers have this issue
-- they are at the mercy of CC manufacturers and cable companies
-- cable cards, and the SW that runs them, are all over the map, and as such they are trying to get to a point where they (tivo) offer their own branded and approved cablecards that they can control (ie, get in bed with Comcast or someone)
-- the new 8.1 SW might fix this, and is estimated to be pushed out in about 2 weeks
-- it is likely that Comcast resets their cablecards monthly, to match their billing cycles, and that in doing so their faulty SW only allows one CC to be auth'ed (which explains why for me, my Tivo worked just fine for almost exactly one month)
-- this is Comcast's issue
-- there isnt really anything Tivo can do for me

Although I already have my 4th Comcast appointment tomorrow, I called them back anyway and tried to get a more senior guy to reset the cards. He tried, and reported back he could only see one. This is in alignment with the conditional access screen reporting back only one card as subscribed. The comcast guy said there was nothing else he could do, so I gotta wait for the house call tomorrow.

So, no real progress here, just testing and research to hopefully help others dial in in their WTF-FUBAR challenge.

[Roderigo]

Thanks Roderigo, for your suggestions. Getting into the Conditional Access menu, the "bad" card returns "disabled" whereas the good card returns "subscribed". A good clue.

Well, seems like you're at least making progress (however slow and painful it is). The other thing to check on the Conditional Access screen is the "Connected" line. I had a friend who's connected line changed from "yes" to "no" This is another case of Comcast messing up.


Although I already have my 4th Comcast appointment tomorrow, I called them back anyway and tried to get a more senior guy to reset the cards. He tried, and reported back he could only see one. This is in alignment with the conditional access screen reporting back only one card as subscribed. The comcast guy said there was nothing else he could do, so I gotta wait for the house call tomorrow.

Clearly if there's only one card on your account, that would explain why the other one isn't working. Of course, they should figure out how they dropped the other card! And, it's crazy that their support people can't fix this over the phone, and not waste your time, nor the installers time.

[audiowurks]

The other thing to check on the Conditional Access screen is the "Connected" line. I had a friend who's connected line changed from "yes" to "no" This is another case of Comcast messing up.




Thanks again. I looked for this "connected" indicator, in the conditional access screen as well as all the other screens within the Cable Card menu. I didn't find it.

[calitivo]

Same problem with TWC here in Los Angeles. CC #1 is receiving some channels, but not the pay channels. Interestingly though, I am receiving a few HD channels (but not the pay ones). Have an appointment for Monday for them to come out and replace it.

When I go into the Configure CableCard 1 screen, it says "CableCARD 1 not in normal operation." Is this the same message others are getting?

[jgubman]

I was having the same problem in Burlingame, CA (comcast cable). Analog channels 44 - 50 would only tune in on one tuner.

Recently, I noticed that Comcast must've turned on ADS, because now ALL of my channels are digital (I can check them via Signal Strength - Cable menu, where I couldn't before). I no longer have any problems tuning in any channel.

[audiowurks]

So I had Comcast come out to my place today; trip #4 in the last month.

I showed the guy how one tuner got all channels, one only received some.
I showed him how one CC read "subscribed" within the Conditional Access screen, the other showed "CA Disabled".

While he had a general understanding of what was going on, and kept up with me pretty well, he just called into Comcast dispatch and had them "reset the head-end". Within three minutes, Tivo blinked a CC reset screen, and now everything works. CC channel test screen shows both CC's working / tuning. Conditional access now reports back both cards as "subscribed". The tech was a bit surprized. No hardware was replaced, and all is well. Total time the technician was at my place: 10 minutes.

Aggravated, I asked why Comcast wouldn't do the same thing he did but when I call. It would have saved everyone time and money. He agreed the whole thing was a joke, and didn't have a solid answer. He did say that if it were to happen again, I could try calling Comcast and specifically asking them to reset from the head-end, giving them the serial number of the faulty CC. That number is printed on the card (starts with NG) and on the paperwork Comcast gives you (at least, this is my experience).

In all, the previous several Comcast guys didn't know what they were doing. More specifically, the people on the Comcast phone don't know what they are doing. Per my request, they have "initialized" my cards, but never once did I get any reset screen on Tivo after they have done it. The comcast phone techs need training and the ability to really reset the head-end.

It works (for now?? who knows). Sorry I blamed Tivo. It is just Comcast not knowing what they are doing.

[Chas_M]

I recall see there is a TIVO short cut that places the tuner status (channel, mode for each tuner and Image format) at the bottom of the picture. I cannot be sure but I thiink it is Select-play-Select-Replay-Select. This is cancelled by the same sequence follwed by a menu change, i.e, press TIVO button, or go Live, etc.

[hutchca]

The recent (.c) software update seems to have fixed my problem.
I can tune in all the upper analog channels with both tuners now.
For now anyway.