In the clear QAM and custom lineup

[frantishak]

I found out the hard way that TIVO Series 3 does not support the guide data for the in-the-clear QAM HD rebroadcast channels. This is a big deal for me as 90% of stuff I am watching is on these channels, and w/o channel guide TIVO is nothing more than just a fancy VCR.

So, my question is: Did anyone try going the custom channel lineup way to work around this issue? If they can create a custom lineup for large apartment complexes why can't they create a custom lineup for in-the-clear HD QAM users in specific area? I live in San Francisco, and my layout of QAM channels did not change for at least last 4 month. I would argue that there are probably more TIVO users that share my lineup, then TIVO users of any of the big apartment complexes around here.

If anyone has experience with that, could you please share. What kind of info do I need to provide to TIVO to create a custom lineup? How long it takes? How willing are they to work w/ end user (as oppose to large apartment complex management)? Perhaps I need to find 10 other people that share my lineup to make a case with them?

Any help is really appreciated.

Thanks,

-- Matt

[moyekj]

Someone already tried and were denied by Tivo, see:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4647320&&#post4647320
That thread covers clear QAM status on S3 right now. Bottom line is what you have found - only manual recordings and no season passes or wishlists and no ability to manually map the clear QAM channels to guide listings.

[TydalForce]

My submission to TiVo with all the info was pretty much rejected. But maybe if enough people start making submissions, they'll take notice?

I'm not sure if that's a worthwhile pursuit, compared to wasting the time of the hard working folks on the other end of that submission form...

[samual.icky]

Question... how does one record in the clear QAM stations... well how does one tune in for that matter?

[TydalForce]

If you know what the channels are (and even a Channel Scan will pick them up) you can just tune to them.

Just above and to the right of the numeric keypad is the skip ahead button. When entering the QAM channel, this button doubles as a hyphen or decimal -- it's labeled (-)
So you'd press 26 (-) 1 to get channel 26.1

Set up a manual recording on that channel at the desired time(s) and you'll be all set.

P.S. Send TiVo a Feature Request http://research.tivo.com/suggestions for the ability to map QAM channels

[vstone]

If you know what the channels are (and even a Channel Scan will pick them up) you can just tune to them.
... Channel scan only picked up 16 channel 0's for me.

[jgarman]

Just purchased a Series 3 to work with my new 32" lcd -- first foray into HDTV but a long-time TiVo customer. I was successfully watching HD broadcasts through the LCD TV's QAM tuner, so I figured my new Series3 would be able to do the same... however I can't get it to pick up any of the HD channels either. What can I do or try (other than returning this stupid thing?) I've tried running channel scan several times to no avail-- my TV picks up the HD channels just fine, but the QAM tuner in the TiVo seems to suck. Any ideas?? I'd really prefer not to have to shell out the cash for a digital service when all I want is the broadcast channels anyway...

[mattack]

You've read the other threads, right?

You will need the CableCards to be able to 'map' the digital channels to what the Tivo expects. You MAY be able to get those without paying for digital cable, but you'll have to pay a few bucks for them.

I'd also suggest calling Tivo and saying that this is a feature you want -- being able to use the in-the-clear QAM channels without having to pay for cablecards.

But from other threads (I don't own a S3 yet), you should still be able to tune in the channels, you just can't record them (except via manual recordings). Can you get to them by typing in the channel #s?

[jgarman]

I've read the other threads ... I'm not interested in getting CableCards if I don't have to-- I'm in NoVa and they will wrap you over a barrel for everything. Are you implying that you can't even tune into QAM channels without a cablecard? I have read this thread... and tried using the channel scan to "find" the QAM channels but no joy. None of the digital HD channels (that I can receive just fine with my TV's QAM tuner!) show up in TiVo's scan.

I have tried just changing the channel during live TV-- but then TiVo attempts to find the channel via the (unconnected) antenna and NOT the cable port! How can I tell it that the channel REALLY DOES exist????

-- at my wits' end...

[TydalForce]

You can tune in to QAM channels manually. You can add them to your channel list so you can "surf" to them via Chan Up and Chan Down. You will not receive Guide information for them, nor will TiVo know what channel it's supposed to be.

Try typing the channel number in manually 128.3 (the dot button is just above the 3 on the keypad).

If it still doesn't work....
- Make sure you've got 8.0.1c the update that started rolling out last week (force an update to TiVo and you should get it)
- Restart
- Make sure you're plugged into the Cable and not Antenna port
- Run Guided Setup again

[dlcrow]

I just got my second S3 and installed it last night. I have CableCARDs in the first one, so I was not affected by this issue.

The clear QAM stations for my cable system (Time Warner Round Rock,TX) are in the cable lineup that TiVo gets (even for my S2's). After a channel scan, the S3 found the clear QAM channels and their mapped channel numbers. Since they matched the numbers in my channel lineup, I have guide data for my clear QAM stations!

I was extremely pleasantly surprised.

[moyekj]

I just got my second S3 and installed it last night. I have CableCARDs in the first one, so I was not affected by this issue.

The clear QAM stations for my cable system (Time Warner Round Rock,TX) are in the cable lineup that TiVo gets (even for my S2's). After a channel scan, the S3 found the clear QAM channels and their mapped channel numbers. Since they matched the numbers in my channel lineup, I have guide data for my clear QAM stations!

I was extremely pleasantly surprised. Don't see how that's possible. Tivo cable channel lineup do not have any sub-channels such as 7-1, so there is no guide data for cbl 7-1. There would be OTA 7-1 but then that would be for antenna input only not cable. So don't see how this could possibly work - from everything I've seen all clear QAM cable channels always come out with "Regular Schedule" for guide listings when not using cablecards. Can you please elaborate with examples exactly how it's working for you?

[Roderigo]

Don't see how that's possible. Tivo cable channel lineup do not have any sub-channels such as 7-1, so there is no guide data for cbl 7-1.

The cable company is in complete control of what (virtual) channels numbers the clear QAM channels show up as. Part of the information broadcast along with the video is the virtual channel numbers. If you see your clear QAM stations as 7-1, that means the cable company is assigning it the same virtual channel number as you'd see off-air. If you see 89-1, then they're most likely not assigning it a virtual channel number, and the 89 is the frequency index of the channel. But, nothing prevents the cable company from assigning the same clear QAM channel number (say 707) as they use in in their cablecard/digital box lineup.

So, everyone who's complaining about Tivo not supporting custom lineups should really start complaining at their cable company to assign the clear QAM channels to the same channel number as their digital lineups.

[moyekj]

But, nothing prevents the cable company from assigning the same clear QAM channel number (say 707) as they use in in their cablecard/digital box lineup. True, but most clear QAM channels are re-broadcasts of the original OTA channel with PSIP information and hence usually map to the OTA channel #. For a cable company to map to their own cable channels they have to fabricate there own PSIP information which is expensive and doesn't encourage "savvy" customers to rent their box for channel mapping, so I don't see the incentive for them to do it. For my cable company (Cox, Orange County) only a couple of HD local re-broadcasts even preserve the OTA PSIP. The others have the PSIP stripped and none of the SD digital simulcast channels in the clear have any PSIP information at all. I've examined several captures with TSReaderLite to confirm all this.

[Roderigo]

True, but most clear QAM channels are re-broadcasts of the original OTA channel with PSIP information and hence usually map to the OTA channel #. For a cable company to map to their own cable channels they have to fabricate there own PSIP information which is expensive and doesn't encourage "savvy" customers to rent their box for channel mapping, so I don't see the incentive for them to do it.
I'm aree with you, but your original question didn't sound like you understood all of this. The cable company can technically make their clear QAM lineup match their cablecard lineup, but in general they choose not to. Dlcrow's cable company, however is doing it. The cable company could also give Tribune their clear QAM lineups, but they likewise have chosen to not do that.

[jgarman]

You can tune in to QAM channels manually. You can add them to your channel list so you can "surf" to them via Chan Up and Chan Down. You will not receive Guide information for them, nor will TiVo know what channel it's supposed to be.

Try typing the channel number in manually 128.3 (the dot button is just above the 3 on the keypad).

If it still doesn't work....
- Make sure you've got 8.0.1c the update that started rolling out last week (force an update to TiVo and you should get it)
- Restart
- Make sure you're plugged into the Cable and not Antenna port
- Run Guided Setup again

Thanks TydalForce! The update to 8.0.1c worked like a charm! I sent in the channel lineup change to TiVo -- maybe they'll update it since my cable provider does provide the correct PSIP information to map the channels to the same channels used by the OTA broadcasts.

[Stevesreed]

Thanks TydalForce! The update to 8.0.1c worked like a charm! I sent in the channel lineup change to TiVo -- maybe they'll update it since my cable provider does provide the correct PSIP information to map the channels to the same channels used by the OTA broadcasts.

I subimitted a line change request as well. Hopefully they start adding clearQAM's that are properly mapped.

TW in SD recently started passing the PSIP data though, so cbl 6-1 is the same as ant 6-1, etc for all the HD locals. I get most OTA fine, except one channel, so it would really be nice to be able to record show with data on that one channel.

It's pretty frustrating to have cbl 6-1 in the channel line up right next to ant 6-1 and not be able to schedule recordings on it (except manually, but that's not the whole point of Tivo)

[dlcrow]

Knowing that TWC Austin is inserting information into the stream to map the channels to their digital lineup is interesting. I bet it also explains why all of the other useful information such as program name and ratings is gone when viewing over cable when compared to OTA.

I was very pleasantly surprised that it worked after reading the reports here. It's all about the channels being in my channel lineup as when I got my first S3 prior to getting the CableCARD, the stations were not in the channel lineup and I was in the same situation as everyone here (channel scan would find them, I could tune them manually, but there was not associated guide data, so the Tivo functions that depend on that did not work).

Maybe this makes up for TWC moving more channels to SDV in January. On second thought, it doesn't.

[CJLevinsk22]

So guys--any word on TiVo addressing this in a future update?

Until they do, I can't make the jump on the Series3 as all my OTA is unencypted.

[Saxion]

Well, we know there is no fix for this in the latest 8.3 firmware.

You are not alone in wanting this fixed...there are a large number of people waiting for this. It will be very big news if it happens. Since people are starting to poke around the Series 3 OS and do some reverse engineering (i.e. enabling the eSATA port), maybe someone will stumble upon a backdoor for this... :) (we can hope, can't we?!?)

[cableguy763]

Still works just fine in Austin...Once again, it is up to the individual cable co in how they broadcast their clear QAM's, not an S3 problem

[DTG]

Channel scan only picked up 16 channel 0's for me.

The zeros returned in a channel scan appear to indicate that the channels exist, but have been encrypted. I am currently going through this for ABC, NBC and CBS high def channels.

Yes, I believe that encrypting these channels is illegal, but Comcast of Eatontown is doing it right now.

[mattn2]

The "0's" aren't encrypted. I get the following QAM from comcast on my S3 w/o cable card:

KMGH-DT: 0-652 (cable box: 652)
KUSA-DT: 0-653 (cable box: 653)
KCNC-DT: 0-654 (cable box: 654)
KDVR-DT: 0-655 (cable box: 655)
KWGN-DT: 0-656 (cable box: 656)
KRMA-DT: 0-658 (cable box: 658)

# Matt

[Saxion]

Still works just fine in Austin...Once again, it is up to the individual cable co in how they broadcast their clear QAM's, not an S3 problemMy understanding is that the reason it works in Austin, is that the cable company there has replaced the PSIP data as provided by the broadcasters, with their own PSIP data that maps the channels to cable-assigned channels numbers (as opposed to OTA channel numbers). This is very unusual, and in fact might be in violation of FCC regs, which states that cable companies must pass the PSIP data as given to them by the broadcasters. Although it's great for Austin residents that they have a fix for this, you can't expect TiVo to universally rely on such a rare configuration which is totally outside of TiVo's control and not enforced by FCC regulations.

[Saxion]

The zeros returned in a channel scan appear to indicate that the channels exist, but have been encrypted.I don't think so...I think the 0's show up when the PSIP data is malformed, which could be a problem either with the broadcaster, or the cable company. Or as mattn2 pointed out, when the cable company specifically assigns channels to 0.x over PSIP.

[Runch Machine]

I thought I'd chime in too. My cable company sends the PSIP data so Tivo does show the digital channels on their traditional number. However there is no program data. There is no excuse for this that I can think of. I have both a TV antenna and cable connected. In the Guide 4-1 received from the antenna has program data, 4-1 from cable does not. Luckily I get perfect reception from my TV antenna so I uncheck the cable local channels.

It's unfortunate for others that Tivo doesn't fix this problem.

[Saxion]

It's unfortunate for others that Tivo doesn't fix this problem.My cable works the same way, but I can't get any OTA reception where I live. I think it's ridiculous that TiVo doesn't fix this problem.

[c3]

In the Guide 4-1 received from the antenna has program data, 4-1 from cable does not.

4-1 from the antenna has nothing to do with 4-1 from the cable. The actual cable channel is something else, such as 704.

[c3]

My cable works the same way, but I can't get any OTA reception where I live. I think it's ridiculous that TiVo doesn't fix this problem.

There is no problem to fix. TiVo has never promised this feature.

[sfhub]

4-1 from the antenna has nothing to do with 4-1 from the cable. The actual cable channel is something else, such as 704.
TiVo really should allow you to use an OTA *guide* and specify it should *tune* using the QAM tuner.

With the PSIP pass-through that Comcast and others are doing (per FCC rules), that would let people only interested in HD locals use the S3 on cable without needing CableCARDs.

[Saxion]

There is no problem to fix. TiVo has never promised this feature.Problem: a poor user experience for many people.
Problem: not addressing the market of people who watch all their HD over unencrypted cable.
Problem: not having the same feature set as their competition (i.e. Sony DHG-HDD250).
Problem: imposing unreasonable costs on their customers (i.e. 2 CableCARDs and a truck roll just to provide 6 channel numbers to the TiVo).

[TydalForce]

It depends on how you define "problem"

The S3 is working as it was designed. It's not broken. However, it's not delivering a feature desired by a significant chunk of it's intended market.

I would very much like to see this functionality too, and I submitted a feature request to TiVo suggesting they do so. But I'm not going to hold it against them that it's not doing something they never promised.

[SugarBowl]

This is a problem that needs to be fixed. But it seems that all the functionality is there, it's just that the cable companies don't publish, support, or even acknowledge that you can get digital stations without a cable box.

www.zap2it.com does not show listings in our area for 5.1, 11.1, or 17.1. So I don't know how the tivo would get the listings.

[TydalForce]

It would probably require a little user intervention. Maybe an applet built in that can detect the PSIP data mapping the channels, see if there's an OTA equivalent, and then pop up a message "Your cable company is tagging this channel as 6-1. There's a nearby broadcast 6-1. Is this your local ABC affiliate?"

With the transparent background, like when you're running Guided Setup and it asks if Channel 13 is QVC :b

[CJLevinsk22]

It would probably require a little user intervention. Maybe an applet built in that can detect the PSIP data mapping the channels, see if there's an OTA equivalent, and then pop up a message "Your cable company is tagging this channel as 6-1. There's a nearby broadcast 6-1. Is this your local ABC affiliate?"

With the transparent background, like when you're running Guided Setup and it asks if Channel 13 is QVC :b

That's an excellent idea--very TiVo'ish!

[TydalForce]

That's how I see TiVo implementing such a thing, if they ever do it.

I doubt we'll see any kind of "mapping" beyond that. I get oodles of unencrypted QAM channels but given that the lineup is so volatile I suspect TiVo won't want to get into messing with it. People would map, and then get pissed off at TiVo when the CableCO goes and changes the channels on them.

But the PSIP mapping, that makes sense.

[pkscout]

If I was guessing, I'd say TiVo elected to not provide this feature because of the number of support calls it will generate. Not all cable companies provide the PSIP data in their feed. In addition, many constantly remap the QAM channels (TWC NC is notorious for this) with no warning. So if you do a manual mapping and the cable company changes it, you get no recordings. Which would cause a dozen threads on this board and calls to TiVo from people complaining TiVo caused them to miss [insert name of favorite show here].

This is a classic lose-lose for TiVo. Folks bitch if they can't have manual QAM mapping and will bitch if they do and then miss shows.

[TiVo Troll]

It would probably require a little user intervention. Maybe an applet built in that can detect the PSIP data mapping the channels, see if there's an OTA equivalent, and then pop up a message "Your cable company is tagging this channel as 6-1. There's a nearby broadcast 6-1. Is this your local ABC affiliate?"

With the transparent background, like when you're running Guided Setup and it asks if Channel 13 is QVC :b

That's an excellent idea--very TiVo'ish!

The much maligned TVGOS (on both Sony's discontinued DHG HDD250/500, and in a less advanced version on LG's tragic LST-3410A hi-def DVR) does it by allowing a user to input a channel number directly. A user needs to know the raw hi-def channel equivalent number.

TydalForce's suggestion is an even more elegant solution which eliminates a user having to know the channel number which, as CJ notes, is more in tune with TiVo's style.

[Saxion]

That's a great idea TydalForce! For another, consider that there are already TiVo features that are "under the radar" and not officially supported, yet incredibly useful...30-second commercial skip and eSATA being the most obvious. Who here hasn't enabled 30-second skip? Yet it requires a secret code, isn't officially supported by TiVo, and goes away whenever the TiVo reboots itself. Does this generate a ton of support calls when users suddenly find their 30-second commercial skip is "broken"? Of course not...people understand the inherent volatility of this backdoor feature, yet still choose to use it (in droves). Manual channel mapping could be handled in a similar fashion...let people enter a series of channel pairs, and if their cableco ever remaps them, the user would have to reenter the new pairing data.

There are other ways of fixing this, some of which don't require any user interaction at all (i.e. fixing TMS-supplied data). I don't know what the "best" solution is, but there ought to be "some" solution.

[TydalForce]

30second skip disappearing on reboot isn't a big deal. But mapping to a channel is. Imagine if you've got yourself a season pass for LOST, and your TiVo restarted Wednesday afternoon due to a power failure. You come home to find you lost your channel and missed that night's episode.

[Saxion]

30second skip disappearing on reboot isn't a big deal. But mapping to a channel is.Yes, absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that QAM channel mapping info would disappear during a reboot. I was just pointing out that users are OK with some backdoor features being at-risk (30-sec skip can sometimes disappear, thus forcing user to reprogram), just as manually-entered channel mapping data would be at-risk (cableco could change the channel assignments, thus forcing user to reprogram).

[puffdaddy]

From my vantage point, it is simple.

1) There is no current TiVo provided solution, and there might not be (for the speculative, but plausible reasons stated in this thread).
2) While not trivial, it is not that difficult to manually map orphan channels (QAM for example) to a valid TMSID--yielding properly aligned guide data and the tivo features that come with it.

If one is sufficiently bothered by the lack of a TiVo provided QAM mapping feature and is technically capable (or know someone who is), then go and do number two.

If you cannot do that, then you must choose between two options: patiently waiting for TiVo to provide such a feature (if they ever do) or calling TiVo customer support every day to ask how one can map orphaned QAM channels so that they properly receive guide data.

Enough people engaging in that last option will most certainly register more loudly in TiVo's ears than merely contributing to the cacophony of whining that is this thread. ;)

[Saxion]

2) While not trivial, it is not that difficult to manually map orphan channels (QAM for example) to a valid TMSID--yielding properly aligned guide data and the tivo features that come with it.OK puffdaddy, you've got our attention. :) How would one go about doing this?

[CJLevinsk22]

OK puffdaddy, you've got our attention. :) How would one go about doing this?


I second that notion...how do we do that?

[puffdaddy]

The simpler way would be to void one's warranty and make the prerequisite hardware modification. It gets easier thereafter in that you only need modify the Station value of each orphaned channel to reference the correct one (the correct channel should be easily identifiable by its TMSID). At that point, your QAM channels will show the guide data associated with the station you assigned.

I have not given serious thought as to whether or not it might be possible to do this sans the hardware modification.

[Phantom Gremlin]

If you cannot do that, then you must choose between two options: patiently waiting for TiVo to provide such a feature (if they ever do) or calling TiVo customer support every day to ask how one can map orphaned QAM channels so that they properly receive guide data.
There are other choices. For example, MythTV for the adventurous. Or the cable company DVR.

TiVo dropped the price from $800 to $500 and I'm still not buying, because of this missing feature. There are a few other "would be nice" features I want, but this is a real showstopper for me. I can't imagine dealing with the hassle of installing not one but two cablecards and then paying more money every month to the cable company for such a simple feature.

[merowe]

Ughh.... Well, I was planning on getting an S3 with the upcoming 200 rebate. Unfortunately, I, too, was planning on avoiding getting cablecards and just using the unencrypted QAM stations (I don't get all stations via OTA).

Looks like no Tivo S3 for me for until they either get this fixed or I become too desperate...

[Phantom Gremlin]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when TiVo execs are meeting to discuss new features.

TiVo has 451 full time employees. But they outsource manufacturing, so they don't need too many people for that. I believe they outsource at least some customer support if not all.

So, WTF do all those people do? Why can't a few of them implement some features that many people clearly want?

In addition to clear QAM, there are countless requests for simple things like free space indicators.

[c3]

Why can't a few of them implement some features that many people clearly want?

Why don't you apply for a job at TiVo to implement that feature? Your "many people" is a (very) small percentage of S3 users. I'm one of those users, but $1.50/month extra is not a big deal for me.

[Saxion]

Your "many people" is a (very) small percentage of S3 users.I highly doubt you actually know the percentage of current S3 users who want this feature, but you are also neglecting the market of potential users who won't buy an S3 without it. You cannot possibly know what the total market size is.

Ask yourself...is there a sizable market of people who only want to record OTA HD? Of course there is, otherwise there wouldn't be 2 ATSC tuners in the S3. So, is there also a market of people who only want to record said OTA channels, but using cable instead of an antenna? Of course there is...it's made up of all the people in the first group who, for whatever reason, cannot receive all their local HD channels via antenna.

TiVo is not addressing this market segment. TiVo needs all the happy subscribers they can get. TiVo wants to drive their HD offering (either S3 or follow-on product) to ever lower price points, and thus to ever more cost-conscious consumers. This is going to become more of a problem, not less.

I'm one of those users, but $1.50/month extra is not a big deal for me.As I'm sure you well know, digital cable tier upgrade + 2 CableCARDs + (possibly) an extra digital outlet fee + truck roll != $1.50.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Why don't you apply for a job at TiVo to implement that feature?

I'm certain I could quickly and single-handedly implement countless useful missing features, including clear QAM and a free space indicator. But I already have a "high tech" job in Oregon where houses cost 1/2 as much and the air is cleaner.

But TiVo doesn't need me. There are many competent programmers already living in the Bay Area who could easily implement the missing features. The problem is that TiVo has, I think erroneously, decided that these features aren't important. My joining TiVo wouldn't change that sad situation.

TiVo won't pay anyone to implement the feature. Heck, they could open source the software and 100 people would step up the next day and start to improve it for free!

BUT NO!!! That makes too much sense.

[Redux]

TiVo won't pay anyone to implement the feature. Heck, they could open source the software and 100 people would step up the next day and start to improve it for free!

BUT NO!!! That makes too much sense.I'll up the ante: we could do the programming for free, a/b test it to industry standards, and _pay_ them to implement it and they wouldn't do it.

Support costs. Can't afford it. Customers are stupid. I don't know whether that's true or not, but they have the data and they say it is.

[Jeff Lam]

I would love to see this feature...

On a side note, is there a way to have tivo only add the clear QAM channels? When I do a search the tivo brings up all 5 hundred sumthing channels and most of them are not clear... but they can be added to the channel list. How can I only add the clear ones?

[davezatz]

Your "many people" is a (very) small percentage of S3 users. I'm one of those users, but $1.50/month extra is not a big deal for me.

Agreed. I'd like it too, but the effort to pull if off versus the numbers who understand and want the feature is probably not worthwhile to TiVo

FYI It turns out where I live that CableCARDs are free (via Comcast) and service includes the HD channels such as Discovery and ESPN without upgrading to the digital tier. I got lucky.

Though as soon as I get back from vacation, I'm hooking up a HDHomeRun to get clear QAM via BeyondTV in another room.

[fareal]

I'm new to OTA and the S3 is my first device that can do QAM. Looking at what is available via QAM, I'd love to see this featured in the S3.

Previously I was a DirecTV customer for a long while and before the S3 I was a TWC customer using their HD-DVR.

[CJLevinsk22]

:-( Is Tivo ever gonna address this??

[Scopeman]

In case no one mentioned it - Austin, TX and Round Rock, TX lost this "mapped QAM" feature a while ago. It was not because of a change by TWC, it was because Tivo stopped sending data out for the channels.

The reason we got it "free" for a while (meaning w/o Cablecards) was that Tvio was sending the data - it was not ever coming from TWC.

What does this prove? That Tivo could easily do this (map the QAMs against known good lineups for the analog channels) and just fails to do so.

When the analog channels disappear, what then? Tivo no longer provides channel lineups and everything has to come via cable card?

[JJ]

Envisioning
the future when analog vanishes and the digital feed is all there is. Entire villages of tivo users attacking the gates with torches and pitchforks. Delivery of basic 'lifeline' services will need to continue and cable companies will be faced with limited options. Creating analog versions of the digital feeds may not satisfy the FCC (remember no NTSC tuners) and be expensive to boot. Cable companies will be looking for ways to satisfy regulations for the lowest possible cost. While this may only affect the broadcast channels being passed over cable it will be enough for me.

The ability to map stuff like the Comcast radar loop would be nice. This would probably not be a happy thing for the cable companies. Comcast and others make a dollar or two signing up customers to a 'digital tier' rather than publicizing the availability of the unencrypted QAM channels. Allowing the use of those basic digital channels with the program data tivo already has based on the OTA broadcast seems a fair use to me...

[sfhub]

The reason we got it "free" for a while (meaning w/o Cablecards) was that Tvio was sending the data - it was not ever coming from TWC.

What does this prove? That Tivo could easily do this (map the QAMs against known good lineups for the analog channels) and just fails to do so.
Actually there are two components of you being able to record without CableCARDs.

1) TWC sent PSIP channel mapping info so the channel #s matched what was expected in the cable guide data TiVo was using
2) TiVo allowed the standard CableCARD-less channel guide configuration to include data for those PSIP'd channels

You lost #2, but if you didn't have #1, #2 never would have worked.

We know TiVo is able to provide QAM mapping if the PSIP info is there. They are just choosing not to at this point for most people. There is an additional level of support some people would like where TiVo would allow you to manually map the channels if the PSIP was missing.

Personally I would be happy if TiVo simply allowed me to record using the PSIP channel info. My area has PSIP info for most HD local channels, but they match the OTA #s, not the cable channel #s.