Will Multi-Room Viewing (MRV) ever be made available for the S3?

[NJ Webel]

Specifically, between an S3 and an S2. I don't care if the S3 has to downrez content to 480I before it transfers, I am just interested if it's even going to happen.

The reason is I have a lifetimed S3 and a lifetimed S2. The S3 is getting all the use and I'm not even using the S2 right now. (it's in the bedroom) But if I could MRV between the two, I'd be using the heck outta both of them.

Is it even worth it to wait and see, or should I Ebay the S2 to recoup my lifetime cost, so someone else can benefit from the lifetime transfer before that option goes away on 12/31? :confused:

[Riverdome]

I'm in the same boat. I knew when I bought my S3 that MRV wasn't included and I almost wish I hadn't bought my S3. But given my options, cable company HD DVR with no MRV or Tivo HD DVR with no MRV . . . . the Tivo box is still worth the investment.

[Jeff_W]

Doh. I just created a new thread asking this same question.

I'm considering getting an S3 to replace my HT room S2 but our other S2 downstairs on a CRT TV doesn't need to be upgraded to an S3. I'd love to know if MRV will one day be supported between the S2 and S3.

[TexasGrillChef]

I would say YES eventually it will. It is what the consumer wants & needs.

WHEN is the real question. IT won't be until CONTENT PROVIDERS feel secure in that their content can't be pirated & thus loose money. Until then, they won't let CABLELABS approve MRV for use with their cable cards. CableLabs is around to protect Content Providors. So MRV won't happen until CONTENT PROVIDERS can be assured that pirating will be kept to a minimum if possible at all.

HOWEVER, Content providers are a stupid breed. Where there is a will to pirate there is always a way.

Blu-Ray & HD-DVD hacks are just around the corner for those new DVD's

So the answer again is YES it will eventually be available. WHEN is the real question and NOBODY is capable of actually being able to give an honest answer to when.

TexasGrillChef

[TexasGrillChef]

P.S.

Tivo is trying to get us MRV, TTG, & eSata aproval from CABLELABS. Tivo is trying.

Just keep in mind that TIVO can't & WON"T enable those features on an S3 until CAbleLabs gives TIVO the go ahead. CableLabs main goal is to protect Content Providers, TV Stations, Cable Providers. They wan't to prevent pirating & until they can come up with a satisfactory way to preven pirating using MRV, TTG, & eSATA Cable labs wont' give approval.

Yes. Similar features are available with various Cable companies on their "DEDICATED" DVR's keep in mind though, those boxes are proprietary & do NOT use cable cards. If TIVO were a "DEDICATED" DVR for your local Cable provider those features could be implimented. I don't think Cable companies are smart enough to give up their dedicated boxes for TIVO though.

Those are the things that are holding us back

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I think that, eventually, at least MRV will get approval and be turned on. But your specific question (i.e. "Will I be able to transfer stuff from my S3 to my S2") will probably be "only if what you're recording was SD on the S3 to begin with." In other words, I doubt that the S3 is able to downrez already-recorded HD to SD for transfer.

[TAsunder]

I think that, eventually, at least MRV will get approval and be turned on. But your specific question (i.e. "Will I be able to transfer stuff from my S3 to my S2") will probably be "only if what you're recording was SD on the S3 to begin with." In other words, I doubt that the S3 is able to downrez already-recorded HD to SD for transfer.

Why not? It already can downrez HD to SD to show on your TV with minimal effort.

[chedlin]

I think downresing for transfer is harder than for display. It would have to run the output through the decompression hardware, then the video scaller, and back into the encoder. IF the tivo is wired for this, and that seems very unlikely, it would keep you from outputting to the TV and recording on one tuner (well, it would prevent recording analog).

The other option would be do downres in software, but the TiVo doesn't have a processor fit for that.

I will follow this up with a disclaimer that I know a lot about series 1 and 2 TiVo units, but I don't know the technical details of the series 3 and don't even have my cable cards working yet.

[TAsunder]

BTW, there is MRV-like functionality available for S1s in the form of an MFS module. I wonder if this could be enabled for S3 eventually if MRV itself is never enabled?

[Maeglin]

One wonders why one of these threads isn't made into a sticky so we don't have 50 of them running around in here.

Oops, too late.

[ncbagwell]

I still don't understand why Tivo can't just allow you to transfer shows TO the S3 from other S2s on the network. Can't we have that as a "workaround" until they get the total approval from CableLabs? How can CableLabs object to this?

[TAsunder]

I still don't understand why Tivo can't just allow you to transfer shows TO the S3 from other S2s on the network. Can't we have that as a "workaround" until they get the total approval from CableLabs? How can CableLabs object to this?

They probably don't object. But Tivo probably doesn't want to expend the effort to put in some new MRV code that goes only one direction.

[megazone]

Why not? It already can downrez HD to SD to show on your TV with minimal effort.That's very different. That is sending the recording through the decoder which has multiple output streams that feed directly to the physical output jacks.

MRV doesn't pass through the decoder, CAN'T pass through it. MRV is basically a file copy from one TiVo to another. And the decoders on the S2 cannot decode HD.

HD MRV from S3 to S2 will not happen.

[m_jonis]

That's very different. That is sending the recording through the decoder which has multiple output streams that feed directly to the physical output jacks.

MRV doesn't pass through the decoder, CAN'T pass through it. MRV is basically a file copy from one TiVo to another. And the decoders on the S2 cannot decode HD.

HD MRV from S3 to S2 will not happen.

I agree, although I'm not sure that MRV ever (including SD) will happen.

Would I like to see it? You bet.

But I think that Cablelabs will refuse to do it. I think only certain Verizon boxes will do it (but they're not cable) and that's STREAMING. I have seen that various cable co's were supposedly going to test a "MRV" option for the SA boxes, but I don't think it's come to fruition and even then I think it'll be streaming as well.

You may wonder why I don't like streaming and that's because:

a) you can only do one thing at a time, whereas with Tivo MRV, I can literally transfer lots of them and have them sitting on both Tivo's so I can watch them whenever. With streaming, you pick one "thing" and have to watch it right then and there.

b) Poor poor quality. Sorry, but even on a 100 MB switched network, the streaming stuff seems far more error prone (ie, pixelation and "hiccups") compared to Tivo MRV.

So far the only "streaming" I've seen is slingbox, so that's what I'm referring to. No Verizon FIOS here yet.

[HDTiVo]

I agree, although I'm not sure that MRV ever (including SD) will happen.

Would I like to see it? You bet.

But I think that Cablelabs will refuse to do it. I think only certain Verizon boxes will do it (but they're not cable) and that's STREAMING. I have seen that various cable co's were supposedly going to test a "MRV" option for the SA boxes, but I don't think it's come to fruition and even then I think it'll be streaming as well.

You may wonder why I don't like streaming and that's because:

a) you can only do one thing at a time, whereas with Tivo MRV, I can literally transfer lots of them and have them sitting on both Tivo's so I can watch them whenever. With streaming, you pick one "thing" and have to watch it right then and there.

b) Poor poor quality. Sorry, but even on a 100 MB switched network, the streaming stuff seems far more error prone (ie, pixelation and "hiccups") compared to Tivo MRV.

So far the only "streaming" I've seen is slingbox, so that's what I'm referring to. No Verizon FIOS here yet.

My guess is TiVo's biggest hurdle is the streamloading it does box to box. Streaming is getting an easier time. That said, I think MRV will eventually come to TiVo.

[classicsat]

My guess is TiVo's biggest hurdle is the streamloading it does box to box. Streaming is getting an easier time. That said, I think MRV will eventually come to TiVo.

The issue really is TiVo using an "unkown" to Cablelabs trasnfer mechanism, whicy has to be approved to be used on the S3. The fat of it being a copy or stream is irrelavent.

Verizon et al can stream/transfer becasue the boxes are their own closed system, not governed by Cablelabs.

[Adam1115]

That's very different. That is sending the recording through the decoder which has multiple output streams that feed directly to the physical output jacks.

MRV doesn't pass through the decoder, CAN'T pass through it. MRV is basically a file copy from one TiVo to another. And the decoders on the S2 cannot decode HD.

HD MRV from S3 to S2 will not happen.

Well, sure, that's how it works right this second, but there's nothing to stop the Series3 down the road from STREAMING to a series2, instead of just dumping the file to it...

[megazone]

Well, sure, that's how it works right this second, but there's nothing to stop the Series3 down the road from STREAMING to a series2, instead of just dumping the file to it...Streaming or copying, it is the same thing in the end. Bits are bits.

The S3 would need new hardware to transcode HD recordings into SD to stream them just as it would for a copy. Streaming isn't magic, the bits have to come from somewhere. You'd need another encoder that could take the HD recordings, down-res them and encode them for the S2.

[Deacon West]

That's very different. That is sending the recording through the decoder which has multiple output streams that feed directly to the physical output jacks.

MRV doesn't pass through the decoder, CAN'T pass through it. MRV is basically a file copy from one TiVo to another. And the decoders on the S2 cannot decode HD.

HD MRV from S3 to S2 will not happen.

Mega, how about S3 to S3?

[TydalForce]

S3 to S3 should be able to work without any kind of re-encoding

Oh, but the fun part begins -- HD recordings are HUGE file sizes - can be around 10GB/hour. How long's it gonna take on wireless to get from Box1 to Box2?

[Deacon West]

Seems like what should be doable under current technology and economic constraints: S2 > S3 Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S2 Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S3 High Def. or Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S2 High Def., big problem.

I could live with that if they could get Cable Labs to allow it, which they should, IMHO.

[megazone]

Mega, how about S3 to S3?
No reason that shouldn't work - it may just take a while. HUGE files and all.

[HDTiVo]

No reason that shouldn't work - it may just take a while. HUGE files and all.
If wired transfers aren't at least 2X for HD I'll be pissed.

[CrispyCritter]

Seems like what should be doable under current technology and economic constraints: S2 > S3 Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S2 Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S3 High Def. or Standard Def., no problem, S3 > S2 High Def., big problem.S3 > S2 Standard Def is a problem. It can be done for some folks for some shows, but not for others. For that reason I'm not sure TiVo would enable it.

The problem is we're not being precise about what we mean Standard Def to mean. S3 > S2 Analog is fine, no problem. But as I understand it, S3 > S2 Digital Standard Def (410i) has the basic same problem as Megazone described for High Def: there's no hardware available to translate the digital signal when transferring. Thus folks whose cable system are using digital simulcast would NOT be able to transfer any of their channels 2-99 from an S3 to an S2; they don't have any analog channels. And worse: all of those folks whose cable system are in the process of implementing digital simulcast would sometimes be able to transfer some programs and sometimes not!

[megazone]

The problem is we're not being precise about what we mean Standard Def to mean. S3 > S2 Analog is fine, no problem. But as I understand it, S3 > S2 Digital Standard Def (410i) has the basic same problem as Megazone described for High Def: there's no hardware available to translate the digital signal when transferring.I don't know about that. Digital cable is MPEG-2 at this time. TiVo records analog channels as MPEG-2. As long as it is a 480i or 480p encoding, I think the decoder on the S2 can handle it. We know it can handle 720x480 resolution recordings because you can MRV from a DVD TiVo. And people rip 480p DVDs and transfer them to their S2s to playback on the TV.

I guess it depends on how the file is saved on the disk of the S3.

[Stanley Rohner]

I would say YES eventually it will. It is what the consumer wants & needs.

WHEN is the real question. IT won't be until CONTENT PROVIDERS feel secure in that their content can't be pirated & thus loose money. Until then, they won't let CABLELABS approve MRV for use with their cable cards. CableLabs is around to protect Content Providors. So MRV won't happen until CONTENT PROVIDERS can be assured that pirating will be kept to a minimum if possible at all.

HOWEVER, Content providers are a stupid breed. Where there is a will to pirate there is always a way.

Blu-Ray & HD-DVD hacks are just around the corner for those new DVD's

So the answer again is YES it will eventually be available. WHEN is the real question and NOBODY is capable of actually being able to give an honest answer to when.

TexasGrillChef

I would say NOBODY knows if TiVo will enable MRV on the S3.
I got a chuckle out of you saying - It is what the consumer wants and needs, like that's ever made a difference before. :)
Here's a good example - The DIRECTV/TiVo customers have wanted and needed their DVRs to have MRV, etc.. ever since it's been released and it's not available yet. :)

[HDTiVo]

I don't know about that. Digital cable is MPEG-2 at this time. TiVo records analog channels as MPEG-2. As long as it is a 480i or 480p encoding, I think the decoder on the S2 can handle it. We know it can handle 720x480 resolution recordings because you can MRV from a DVD TiVo. And people rip 480p DVDs and transfer them to their S2s to playback on the TV.

I guess it depends on how the file is saved on the disk of the S3.
That's right, Critter is way off base.

OTA digital simulcast won't have any more restriction than OTA analog.

The only things is there might be extra copy protection on the digital non-OTA channels preventing transfers, and maybe there could be a decision forced that no digital non-OTA material can transfer. But why the latter, when the CP flags can take care of that for each show?

[TivoPip]

How about using TiVo desktop to transfer from a S3 in HD, down-convert on the PC and then make in available as a SD .MPG for the S2?

This is something that could potentially be automated in a future version of TD as part of a transfer request between TiVos.

Take a heck of a long time though.....

[Dennis Wilkinson]

How about using TiVo desktop to transfer from a S3 in HD, down-convert on the PC and then make in available as a SD .MPG for the S2?

That would certainly work, assuming you could get the HD media to the PC to begin with, which is still a big question.

[Jerry_K]

Wired Gigabit for MRV would provide an HD answer for Series 3 to Series 3. All my other networked components are giga. And the two Series 3 are Cat 6 with Giga switches. Bring it on.

[aaronwt]

Is the Series 3 100mbit or 1000mbit?

[SeanC]

Wired Gigabit for MRV would provide an HD answer for Series 3 to Series 3. All my other networked components are giga. And the two Series 3 are Cat 6 with Giga switches. Bring it on.

One one problem. The S3 only has a 10/100 jack.

[vman41]

Wired Gigabit for MRV would provide an HD answer for Series 3 to Series 3. All my other networked components are giga. And the two Series 3 are Cat 6 with Giga switches. Bring it on.

The HD streams are at most 19 mbit/second, you don't need gigabit speed to do MRV.

[MichaelK]

Sorry- been out of the loop a few weeks- but last i checked in here Cablelabs was saying tivo had not YET approached them about transfers?

Also- the way I read this Doc it looks like as long as it's unprotected content (CCI/EMI bits set to 0,0) then TiVo can do as it pleases:
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/CHILA.pdf

speaks about required DRM then at the bottom of page 36:
"licensed product may output content received through the Service, which is not Controlled Content, through digital outputs other then the outputs listed above"

And the "above list" included MS windows media DRM and Real networks helix.

One intereting tidbit I hadn't noticed earlier is it says that content moving over a DRI (eg. usb, ethernet, firewire, etc) has to have TWO drm's. So it looks like it would need to use MS or REAL PLUS TiVoGuard if Tivogaurd ever got approved.

Perhaps the hold up is Tivo making a deal with MS or Real to use their DRM alongside with TivoGaurd? I'd also feel better if TiVoGaurd would show up in that Document as an equal to MS and Real but it hasn't yet....

[MichaelK]

BTW-

how does it work in the real world to apply TWO drm's to the same material?

I've never heard of such a thing before.

Is this some new 'feature' of windows vista?

[Maeglin]

It's hard to imagine that 2 DRM schemes would need to be layered on top of each other... that would be overkill (then again, consider the source). It would make more sense that including two or more implies providing a choice of DRM algorithm (with "none" not being a choice) in the device.

[MichaelK]

could be.

"Two or more of the approved DRM systems listed in this section must be included in the OCUR implementation"


So the question would then be- why do they want to choices? Would the theory be if one fails they can lock it down and go to the other?

[Maeglin]

So the question would then be- why do they want to choices? Would the theory be if one fails they can lock it down and go to the other?
Maybe the point is to be the Anti-Apple (with regards to iTunes DRM... locked into single hardware vendor for portability, etc.).

Assuming they wouldn't allow naked MPEG4 to leave the system (as is currently the case I think with Tivo Desktop Plus for some devices) for protected content, if you didn't have a device that worked with one DRM scheme then you may have something that works with another that's been implemented. If DRM had to come into it, that would actually be ideal for consumers.

[Nalez]

Streaming or copying, it is the same thing in the end. Bits are bits.

The S3 would need new hardware to transcode HD recordings into SD to stream them just as it would for a copy. Streaming isn't magic, the bits have to come from somewhere. You'd need another encoder that could take the HD recordings, down-res them and encode them for the S2.

That already exists. I can watch a "hd" program on a SD set using my S3, via the s-video out. It is down-resed using the exisitng hardware in the s3

[Davin]

They probably don't object. But Tivo probably doesn't want to expend the effort to put in some new MRV code that goes only one direction.

Seriously - this is the feature that is holding me back from buying an S3: I want to be able to put the S3 in front of my main TV, and be able to watch regular content that I've recorded on my other S2 TiVos.

I don't care (as much) about transferring from my S3 to my S2 units.

Davin.

[Adam1115]

The HD streams are at most 19 mbit/second, you don't need gigabit speed to do MRV.

True, but it would have been nice for TTG transfers..

[megazone]

That already exists. I can watch a "hd" program on a SD set using my S3, via the s-video out. It is down-resed using the exisitng hardware in the s3Deja vu. Didn't I just explain this to someone? Apples and oranges.

Short version, because I can't be arsed to type the details again. That is the decoder which only feeds the video outputs. It cannot be used for MRV.

So, again, can't be done.

[Adam1115]

Deja vu. Didn't I just explain this to someone? Apples and oranges.

Short version, because I can't be arsed to type the details again. That is the decoder which only feeds the video outputs. It cannot be used for MRV.

So, again, can't be done.

Lets just loop it back into the USB Port, nothing a simple adapter can't solve...

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/usb_video_adapter.html

[Maeglin]

Lets just loop it back into the USB Port, nothing a simple adapter can't solve...[/url]
You may as well get a pair of these and some cable...
http://svideo.com/svaudiobalun17.html

They'll work just as well, if that's what you have in mind. Oh yeah, no code changes required either. It'll likely work even better, as you wont have the flawed-for-vidcap USB port in the middle of it.