PLEASE HELP! Tivo Tuning Problem

[snowy2004]

Hi all, hopefully someone may be able to help with the following :

I am an ex-pat living in Spain. For a while I lived in Mallorca and using a SKY box coupled with my TIVO and a digi-eye my setup worked perfectly. I used to do regular daily calls via a Spanish UUNET pop on my landline.

I have now moved to the mainland and have no sky dish! The community I live in has cable TV which consists of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, Sky 1, Movies 1 & 2 and Sky sports 1,2 & 3 and several dutch and spanish channels broadcasted via RF to the aerial sockets all over the community. You simply plug into the coaxial aerial socket and tune your TV/Video as you would for a normal broadcast signal from a standard rooftop aerial.

Is there any way I can make this work with Tivo? It is, obviously, a completely non-standard channel numbering system.

If it's any help, here are some of the channels and the respective frequencies/channel numbers :

BBC1 - 471Mhz - C21
BBC2 - 479Mhz - C22
ITV1 - 487Mhz - C23
CH4 - 495Mhz - C24
SKY1 - 503Mhz - C25
SKY SPORTS 1 - 335Mhz - S25
SKY MOVIES 1 - 543Mhz - C30
EUROSPORT - 359Mhz - S28

I can tune my TV into all the chanells just fine. Can I do something with Tivo or will I have to buy a sky dish (already have a Pace decoder)?

Many thanks in advance.

Si.

[Fred Smith]

The reply I gave you some time ago still applies, have you tried it.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=323224

TiVo will only tune in the UHF signals so you won't be able to receive Sky Sports 1 or Eurosport on it.

I would also guess that as the signals are being rebroadcast that the sound spacing will be for PAL B/G i.e. 5.5Mhz and not for PAL I i.e. 6Mhz which TiVo will expect so you may get picture but no sound.

[snowy2004]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the info. I always thought that the UHF band started at 300Mhz? If I remember rightly the sound is broadcast on PAL B/G - I will check on TV later. If that is the case then the only option I guess is to put a SKY dish up!??

[katman]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the info. I always thought that the UHF band started at 300Mhz?

Nope. 470 - 860 MHz

[frogster]

The community I live in has cable TV which consists of BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, Sky 1, Movies 1 & 2 and Sky sports 1,2 & 3 and several dutch and spanish channels broadcasted via RF to the aerial sockets all over the community. It's pretty amazing that the Spanish authorities still haven't put a stop to this totally illegal practice. Do they make any attempt to stop people selling pirate DVDs, and fake cigarettes and designer goods in markets etc. I wonder? Or fake medicines? Presumably not.

I suppose all the EU directives about intellectual property theft get lost in translation. :rolleyes:

[snowy2004]

Yup - the signal is PAL B/G. Guess I will have to buy a sky dish! I already have a Pace decoder and card. I also have a video recorder (Matsui) that tunes the picture in perfectly but, of course. not the sound! Is there any way that PAL B/G can be converted to PAL I ?

Frogster: I know what you mean but you have to understand that probably 80% of the (ex-pat) houses have a Sky dish anyway. As far as cigarettes go they are cheap enough already so no need for fakes. We do have african "looky-looky" men who wander the streets selling fake sunglasses and pirate DVD's. The police do occasionaly stop them. Medicnes are very cheap anyway and most are available over the counter without prescription.

Heres a question : If you were in the same situation as me would you buy a dish and use TIVO or buy a dish and a sky+ (or maybe HD) box to replace TIVO ?

[Fred Smith]

It would probably be easier to convert TiVo and the Matsui to PAL B/G at least as far as sound. Modifying the tuning range to include VHF band would be difficult and expensive.

I suggest you check out the Oz TiVo forums as PAL B/G is used in Australia and of course so are some hacked TiVo's.

Regarding the VCR I would not bother with a Matsui, you can get new one's in the UK for about £35 so I would expect a similar price would apply in Spain, if so I would buy a new one locally or go for a local compatible DVD-R to compliment your TiVo.

[frogster]

Frogster: I know what you mean but you have to understand that probably 80% of the (ex-pat) houses have a Sky dish anyway. There's a big difference between having your own dish with your own subscription and third parties re-broadcasting stolen material (presumably for a fee) as I'm sure you will agree. This is the same as the difference between people with multiregion players importing DVDs from abroad and people selling pirate DVDs.

Heres a question : If you were in the same situation as me would you buy a dish and use TIVO or buy a dish and a sky+ (or maybe HD) box to replace TIVO ?That would all depend on whether my Tivo had a lifetime sub or not. Mine does so I would just get a dish and Sky box and FTV card as I'm not interested in pay TV.

A Sky+ would cost £10 per month if you don't have a premium Sky subscription and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to activate for use in Spain as the phone connection is now required for this. If I had a premium Sky sub anyway then I would surely get a Sky+ rather than a regular digibox, simply for the ability to record two channels at once and the better recording quality.

Out of curiosity, I imagine that the rebroadcast signal you get is mono sound and 4:3? Or do they send the anamorphic 16:9 picture?

[snowy2004]

Hi Frogster,
THere is no direct fee for the service although I am sure it is included in the annual management community fees that include things like pool cleaning, garden maintenance etc... We also get free 1mb broadband. I do agree however that it is illegal. I would feel more comfortable if the sports and movie channels were not present - mind you I tend only to watch the free to air channels anyway! The one's I am missing most are things like Men&Motors and ITV2 etc...

My Tivo does not have a lifetime sub - I pay monthly so the £10 sky fee would be the equivalent. There are lots of companies here in Spain that can activate SKY+ without using a phone line. The only problem is if you want a PPV event. I already have a pace digibox and FTV card so I suppose that If I get a dish with a quad LNB and a SKY+ box then I could put my existing Pace in the bedroom connected to Tivo (my wife LOVES Tivo even more than me I think!).

The only thing I would miss about Tivo is the predictive recording.

The signal is broadcast in stereo and 16:9 anamorphic.

Fred: Thanks for the info - I will check out the Oz forums. The Matsui video was given to me by a friend on a recent visit to the UK. It's main purpose was to use as a tuner for a spare TV I have in the bedroom that cannot tune VHF.

[frogster]

There are lots of companies here in Spain that can activate SKY+ without using a phone line.
That seems very unlikely. I suspect that they are using diallers. AFAIK Sky just won't do it at all without the phone connection any more, just as with HD.


The signal is broadcast in stereo and 16:9 anamorphic.
NICAM stereo? They must have some sophisticated equipment.
Or are they using the stereo subcarriers that I think PAL B/G provides for?

[snowy2004]

SKY will allow both HD and SKY+ without a phone line as long as the STB's are full price and not subsidised.

Not sure if it is NICAM. It used to be mono sound but they recently upgraded all the kit in the equipment cupboard located in the underground garage. The upgrade was to enable stereo. WIll have to try and have a peek at what is in there (need to find someone with a key!)

To be honest, they do spend a lot of money on top quality kit in the complex - it is a very nice neighbourhood with apartments selling between 500,000 and 1 million euros. Management fees are also quite high so they have a big budget to play with - possibly it is NICAM ?

[frogster]

SKY will allow both HD and SKY+ without a phone line as long as the STB's are full price and not subsidised.That's perfectly true but they won't activate either machine for recording without a phone connection. This has been the case for a year or so. Once activated you can unplug it but this is why diallers are needed for activation and why companies offer to do it for a fee.

Not sure if it is NICAM. It used to be mono sound but they recently upgraded all the kit in the equipment cupboard located in the underground garage. The upgrade was to enable stereo. WIll have to try and have a peek at what is in there (need to find someone with a key!)

To be honest, they do spend a lot of money on top quality kit in the complex - it is a very nice neighbourhood with apartments selling between 500,000 and 1 million euros. Management fees are also quite high so they have a big budget to play with - possibly it is NICAM ?
Curiouser and curiouser. What sort of equipment could they possibly need to relay RF? Any NICAM would be at the origininating transmission end anyway. Are you sure that they don't just have a pile of digiboxes in this mystical cupboard?

[snowy2004]

Yes, they do charge a fee for activation (usually around £120). It is the only way to get the service though! I still have a home in the UK and still pay a tv-licence for it. I find it rather annoying that I can't legally receive even the basic BBC and ITV channels in Spain even though I pay a tv-licence and am willing to pay for a SKY subscription. Hmmmm.... would it make a difference if I PROMISE not to let any Spanish people watch?? ;-)

As far as the equipment goes, it probably is just a load of Digiboxes. At least 6 of them must be SKY approved boxes (SKY1, 3 SKY Sports channels, 2 Sky Movies). The rest are probably the generic non-sky boxes that you can buy over here for about 70 euros. They can recieve all FTA channels. However they must multiplex the RF feed in some way?

[aleks]

Could well be Nicam, the modulators aren't that expensive any more - prices start at about £300.

For example you can get them from taylorbros.co.uk

[Pete77]

Snowy,

If I were you I would bite the bullet and get my own Sky dish installed, although down in Spain you are going to need one at least 1.8 metres in size to get a reliable signal on the BBC and ITV channels which are broadcast on Astra 2D and aimed mainly only at the UK mainland from that beam. Will your complex let you have your own nearly 2 metre dish? Also these dishes and especially their set up and installation don't come cheap.

Having investigated the possibilities for our family holiday home in curiously enough Mallorca (Canyamel near Arta and Cala Rajada on the East side) it seems installers wanted about 300 quid to install a 1.8 metre plus dish.

As you are in a non officially served Tivo area and have a non standard channel selection then in theory the Tivo box can be modified to cope with your non standard UHF channel lineup as the Ozzies and New Zealanders have done but I believe its hugely difficult to do and maintain it all and get the EPG data etc unless you are a keen computer hacker.

Give it a year or two and the BBC are going to find ways to legitimately sell programs to Expats in Spain via broadband tv but for the time being it hasn't happened. Also the BBC are going to start a Watch Again Media Player service in Spring next year for UK broadband customers for all their programs over the last 7 days. They will of course try and block non UK access but there are ways round this using proxy servers and so on.

I think you will find getting a large enough dish to receive normal Sky digital is quite pricey unless you have a mate who can do it for only the cost of the parts or you can learn how to install and set up a Sky dish yourself. The best place to hide such a big Sky dish is usually up on the roof but then installing there is tricky and dangerous unless you know what you are doing.

You really need to get a Lifetime Sub if you are going to carry on using Tivo cost effectively.

[snowy2004]

Hi Pete. Funnily enough I used to live in Mallorca (Cala Dor - South East coast). I only moved from there to the mainland 6 months ago. In Cala Dor we had a 1.6m dish with a pace 2600 box and it worked really well. The only channel that really had problems was CH4 at certain times of day.

Where we are near Malaga a 1.3m dish is sufficient (I have lots of friends with this size of dish who have no problems at all). Further up the coast there are, however, certain blackspots such as parts of the Alicante region.

I have been quoted 250 euros for supply and fit of the dish here in Malaga.

BTW: I know this is off topic but does anybody know anything about dvd-recorders? As the Matsui didn't work I bought a Packard Bell DVD recorder from ebay to use as a tuner in the spare bedroom (determined not to get rid of that TV!!) The tuner section works fine - great sound and picture. The dvd recorder recorded once and then stopped - whatever disc I insert wehter it is a lens cleaner, and original DVD or a DVD-R (or RW or +R or +RW) it just says NO DISC! Any ideas (or does anybody know of a forum that may be able to help me?)

[Pete77]

Hi Pete. Funnily enough I used to live in Mallorca (Cala Dor - South East coast). I only moved from there to the mainland 6 months ago. In Cala Dor we had a 1.6m dish with a pace 2600 box and it worked really well. The only channel that really had problems was CH4 at certain times of day.

Where we are near Malaga a 1.3m dish is sufficient (I have lots of friends with this size of dish who have no problems at all). Further up the coast there are, however, certain blackspots such as parts of the Alicante region.

The various websites do seem to suggest that Malaga is better for Sky reception than the Barcelona area and the Balearics and that the very Eastern side of Mallorca nearest Menorca is considerably worse than the Palma area. Odd when Mallorca is about 400 miles or more nearer to the UK where Sky should be aiming the centre of the 2D beam. However its encouraging to know you got Sky ok with just a 1.3 metre dish with a Pace 2600C1 on the South East side of Mallorca - that is the box I would get to use in Mallorca if we ever go ahead with trying to get Sky there but we are only out there in the spring to Autumn 9 or 10 weeks in total across the family members - and its my mum's place and not mine.

The other four apartments in our block of 5 are owned by Germans and they have long had a 90cm dish pointed at 19 degrees East Astra that they share and have just upgraded the LNB for digital (previously analogue) and replaced the splitter.
They have agreed to run a cable in to our flat for 30 Euros or something from the splitter and with an 80 Euro or so Astra Digibox this should give BBC World, CNN, Sky News, CNBC but not much else in English that is free. Anyhow its my mum's place and she is anti telly on holiday but the German neighbours above have just upgraded to flat screen tv and offered her their old 14" set for nothing plus the German guy above just loves DIY so I thinks that's going to happen in the Spring next year when he and my my Mum are out there. My Mum is widowed and spends some time there on her own and would in fact enjoy watching BBC and Sky News (she is a new junkie) but its just she has this old fashioned idea of no tv in the holiday home ("no Tv Please We're British" if you like)


BTW: I know this is off topic but does anybody know anything about dvd-recorders? As the Matsui didn't work I bought a Packard Bell DVD recorder from ebay to use as a tuner in the spare bedroom (determined not to get rid of that TV!!) The tuner section works fine - great sound and picture. The dvd recorder recorded once and then stopped - whatever disc I insert wehter it is a lens cleaner, and original DVD or a DVD-R (or RW or +R or +RW) it just says NO DISC! Any ideas (or does anybody know of a forum that may be able to help me?)

In my experience all home CD-RW and DVD-RW/+RW recorders are a steaming pile of crock in terms of the reliability of anything you record yourself on them with it often no longer being readable a few months later. Personally I don't rate any self record optical disk as reliable and would rather use hard drives for recording programs any day of the week. The CDs and DVDs you buy are produced by some more expensive and reliable process that doesn't deteriorate like the self record disks do as far as I can tell.

[Pete77]

By the way are you aware that the free channel lineup on a Sky Digibox now includes Film Four (no viewing card required as it is unencrypted like the BBC and ITV now are) and the new Ch Five channels - Five US and Five Life although they require an FTV viewing card (i.e. a Freesat one or a desubscribed Sky one that is out of contract but no sub needed). Also you get TrueMovies, TrueMovies2, Movies4Men, Movies4Men, Reality TV, CNN, Euronews plus of course obscure Wine and Overseas Property channels, the new Al Jazeerah English news channel and a load of shopping channels that no one in their right mind would want to watch.

So quite a bit more than the complex are giving you and a hell of a lot easier to record it all using the Tivo.

The block of flats my mum used to live in up in London went for a cheapo cable tv solution using just the old coax and rebroadcasting like you have in the late 80s, except that they wanted to charge for the privilege so that they normally scrambled the extra channels and all you saw was flickering images unless you bought their descrambler box and a subscription. However at one stage they screwed up and for several months all the channels were unscrambled (including Sky Movies) and I had no end of enjoyable free watching (still living at home with the parents back then).

[snowy2004]

However its encouraging to know you got Sky ok with just a 1.3 metre dish with a Pace 2600C1 on the South East side of Mallorca.

Hi Pete, Please note that it was a 1.6m dish and not a 1.3

In my experience all home CD-RW and DVD-RW/+RW recorders are a steaming pile of crock in terms of the reliability of anything you record yourself on them with it often no longer being readable a few months later. Personally I don't rate any self record optical disk as reliable and would rather use hard drives for recording programs any day of the week. The CDs and DVDs you buy are produced by some more expensive and reliable process that doesn't deteriorate like the self record disks do as far as I can tell.

I know what you mean. As it happens, after I made my last post I was a little bored so I decided to open the damn thing and have a look. It appears that the head was stuck at the back of it's rails. With a little bit of nudging it started working just fine again. I have left the screws out of the case for easy access in case it happens again (that should really be WHEN it happens again!)

HDD recording is MUCH MUCH easier - I am going to call my friendly sky installer this week I think. Can't hold out much longer without TIVO (It's been six months now and I am still paying a subscription!)

[Pete77]

Hi Pete, Please note that it was a 1.6m dish and not a 1.3

OK thanks. It makes sense then that all the web sites on this stuff suggest that a 1.8 metre dish is the minimum you need to reliably get all UK channels at virtually all times in the Balearics and especially far East Mallorca near Menorca which is apparently right in the maximum reception weak spot. I can see that my mum would consider a 6 foot dish on her terrace wall to be an eyesore (even though it does face South East so is perfect for good signal alignment) so I think we are stuck with just the English language news channels from the German's 19 degrees East Astra dish for the time being. Also although there's already a 90cm satellite dish on the wall the bloody Germans put it there so she can live with that.

She thinks nothing on blowing a couple of grand or more on a nice 70th birthday party for all her friends at a smart London restaurant - as ever in life a question of priorities.................

I am going to call my friendly sky installer this week I think. Can't hold out much longer without TIVO (It's been six months now and I am still paying a subscription!)

Sky+ is a non starter still really, unless you're loaded with money or a football/cricket junkie, as the minimum sub you have to pay to not pay £10 a month extra sub just for the Sky+ service alone is a £37 per month Premium Channel sub. Its a bit annoying to still be paying £10 per month to Tivo but at least you can feel good that you and the other 10,000+ people still paying it are the ones keeping the service going. :up: