Probably an old chesnut, but...

[Paul Fraser]

...why hasn't there been a dual tuner Freeview Tivo on the market for the last year or two? I would have thought they would have sold like hotcakes. With series link coming up on Freeview soon I suspect this opportunity will soon be over.
Sorry if this is an old question but I've been over on the Dark Side (Sky+) for the last couple of years while my Tivo has quietly spun its hard drive to death I suspect (new one on oder).

[blindlemon]

..presumably because all the other manufacturers are expecting TiVo to release one shortly, and know that when it does it will wipe the floor :D:D

[Pete77]

I think its a simple case of once bitten twice shy really.

Tivo Inc made a huge mess of its previous UK effort because of not understanding the deviousness of Rupert Murdoch in developing Sky+ to undermine Tivo on that platform and it also pulled out a few months after the demise of OnDigital which made it look like the DTT platform had no future (how wrong could they have been). Also their previous marketing of the benefits of Tivo was a rather poor joke that didn't even properly explain how it interacted with third party STBs.

Now even though a Freeview Tivo box could have been a rip roaring success they are afraid to come back fearing that Murdoch will do something or other to block them and also no doubt afraid that the Freeview market will be resistant to the idea of a subscription service - although if that is true than how does one explain TopUpTv and TopUpTv Anytime.

Basically Americans being Americans they are now afraid to go back to the place where they previously experienced failure and rejection even though the dynamics of the marketplace have now totally changed in the interim due to the launch of Freeview. So unfortunately history is the real explanation as to why Tivo Inc refuses to re-enter what could be an extremely dynamic UK Tivo marketplace.

[sanderton]

Because there are dual tuner Freeview PVRs available for £150 and less with no subscription. While TiVo is SOOO much better, that's a tough sell - especially to a market who has decided they don't want to pay a sub for their TV...

[Pete77]

Because there are dual tuner Freeview PVRs available for £150 and less with no subscription. While TiVo is SOOO much better, that's a tough sell - especially to a market who has decided they don't want to pay a sub for their TV...

Not if they bundle the first 6 months Tivo sub for free and offer a basic recorder functionality that is essentially the same as a current Freeview PVR in the unlikely event of many customers not carrying on their sub. It would be the old deal of handing over bank or credit card details at the outset to get the full Tivo functions on a trial basis but not having the first payment taken until Month 7 and only if you didn't cancel. Which magazine have been using this kind of deal to sell their subscriptions for years.

If the monthly sub after Month 6 was £5 per month that still ought to be enough for Tivo to make a profit at the current pound to dollar exchange rate.

[sanderton]

Perhaps, but I wouldn't like to try to compete with "half the price and no sub", however much you make it a soft-start option. And remember, people with Freeview are those who for the most part have decided that they don't want to pay a monthly sub for their telly - the toughest sell imaginable!

Is it imposible? Perhaps not, but it's defitiely swimming upstream, and I don't blame TiVo for looking for simpler challenges.

[blindlemon]

...like translating the UI and EPG into Spanish for 1.5m Mexicans? :confused: :cool:

However, the current US TiVo offering is either "free box with 1, 2 or 3 years' sub" or "1, 2 or 3 years' service and keep the box, prepaid". With the cheapest option (1 year's sub prepaid with a free box (http://www.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.2.asp?box=series280hrDvr)) going for the equivalent of £100.54 at today's exchange rate I don't think even TiVo would have too much trouble selling that to the UK market - and once word started getting out about how much better TiVo is than anything else around they could probably even raise their prices a bit :)

[Pete77]

I suppose they are still concerned about Murdoch continuing to refuse to play ball with them on direct access to the HD bitstream and converting the encrypted broadcasts.

Also American success culture doesn't like to admit failure so when you have an unhappy memory like Tivo in the UK it's sometimes easier on a corporate level just to keep it as an every more distant memory.

[thechachman]

What about a box with a digital terrestrial and dvb sat tuner, freeview/freesat capable in one? Googling around leads me to believe the added cost of the dvb (non HD) tuner is minimal ...

Put a CI camslot in the back ala the ondigital boxes and petition the regulators to force Sky to adhere to EU directives and produce legit NDS cams for UK use as they've had to elsewhere. :up:

[Pete77]

What about a box with a digital terrestrial and dvb sat tuner, freeview/freesat capable in one? Googling around leads me to believe the added cost of the dvb (non HD) tuner is minimal ...

Put a CI camslot in the back ala the ondigital boxes and petition the regulators to force Sky to adhere to EU directives and produce legit NDS cams for UK use as they've had to elsewhere. :up:

Why leave out cable? Presumably adding whatever tunes in digital cable broadcasts wouldn't cost much extra too either? And while they're at it might as well also add in a capability for IPTV too - that only requires an RJ45 network cable socket plus also adds in built in TivoWeb capability. ;)

[thechachman]

Why leave out cable? Presumably adding whatever tunes in digital cable broadcasts wouldn't cost much extra too either? And while they're at it might as well also add in a capability for IPTV too - that only requires an RJ45 network cable socket plus also adds in built in TivoWeb capability. ;)
Well digital cable varies I thought, and AFAIK there are no cable cams in the UK :confused:
Otherwise, I wouldn't see any point putting analogue cable in these days for the same reason as omitting an analogue TV tuner ...

[katman]

Why leave out cable? Presumably adding whatever tunes in digital cable broadcasts wouldn't cost much extra too either? And while they're at it might as well also add in a capability for IPTV too - that only requires an RJ45 network cable socket plus also adds in built in TivoWeb capability. ;)

It adds to the cost.

Freeview/Freesat is (or will shortly be) available to the majority of the UK population whereas cable is only available in large towns. Even then, the whole town may not be able to get access to cable.

[thechachman]

Do we know whether s2/s3 hardware requires different program metadata to s1?

[sanderton]

Why leave out cable?

Beacuse the cable companies give out PVRs for free.

[cwaring]

Not over here they don't :) The NTL:Telewest TVDrive will cost you £10-15 per month.

[Pete77]

Not over here they don't :) The NTL:Telewest TVDrive will cost you £10-15 per month.

Isn't that a subscription to the channels rather than a fee for the hardware?

Or is that the Telewest charge for HDTV services?

No one seems to have written a review yet on the respective merits or demerits of a TvDrive vs SkyPlus.

[6022tivo]

No, Telewest charge you for having the box!!..

All this talk about NDS and Sky releasing a CAM. I thought you don't need one. I know a dreambox will emulate the NDS CAM (you have to use a subbed card). So it is not that much of an issue is it?

[Pete77]

All this talk about NDS and Sky releasing a CAM. I thought you don't need one. I know a dreambox will emulate the NDS CAM (you have to use a subbed card). So it is not that much of an issue is it?

Yes it is an issue because the CAM can't be emulated legally so anyone trying to market a product based on its emulation is under the constant threat of legal action from Sky.

Also Sky are quite within their rights to vary the encryption system at any time so that the emulating CAM is rendered useless. Whereas if they were under a legal obligation to provide subscription services via CAMs to those developing third party boxes they couldn't possibly try and pull such a trick.

Also the fact that you have to have one of Sky's own Digiboxes as well as the third party box to keep the Smart card working is yet another problem caused by all this taking place without Sky's co-operation.

[6022tivo]

Ahh of course, I must of been drunk and silly...

Interesting then that earlier someone said force Sky to adhere to EU directives and produce legit NDS cams for UK
Why don't the other manufacturers do this, or even customer power? Can I write to my MP?.

[thechachman]

Ahh of course, I must of been drunk and silly...

Interesting then that earlier someone said force Sky to adhere to EU directives and produce legit NDS cams for UK
Why don't the other manufacturers do this, or even customer power? Can I write to my MP?.
That would have been me. There exist a stack of EU directives on satellite television and bouquet/package delivery and encryption. According to the last set, it was not permitted for broadcasters to ringfence their systems in such a way that a competing service could not also exist. It would be unrealistic to expect an end-user to own three or four boxes, so the concept of CI and cams came about with the growth of DVB and digital satellite.

NDS in theory would be required to create and sell CAMs for the use of its licensors within their respective markets if asked, but as Sky has not requested any here we are ....

For those who are skeptical, here is an NDS CI cam, they are rare but do exist.

Unfortunately (like the old ondigital seca cams) it is locked/solely for use with the Viasat bouquet.

http://www.chartraw.com/forums/nds_ci_cam.jpg

[Pete77]

Can I write to my MP?.

You can write to your MP and suggest you would like to get him to ask the Parliamentary Ombudsman to investigate the failure of Ofcom to properly fulfil its duty to ensure competitive markets in broadcasting mandated under both the Communciations Act 2003 and EU competition legislation.

You should also write to one of your 10 or so MEP (MEP's get far less correspondence than MPs despite their far larger multi member constituencies) asking them to write to the EU expressing your concern at the failure of Ofcom to force Sky to allow access to its subscription tv services by manufacturers of other non Sky approved satellite reception units and PVRs.

Bizarrely this Labour government on the one hand sees no problem in highly restrictive and interventionist policies in banning smoking in all public places and bringing in nationwide road tolls and yet on the other hand believes in a telecoms regulator that believes in no intervention at all in the market against the anti competitive activities of Near Monopolies like Sky run by people like Rupert Murdoch that New Labour reckons it cannot afford to upset for electoral reasons. ;)

You can find out who your MP and MEPs are and write to them using:-

www.writetothem.com