February 17th, 2009 deadline for Digital/HD OTA

[TexasGrillChef]

For the CORRECT information regarding the OTA switch to digital/HD and local broadcasters ceasing broadcast of NTSC (Analog) TV signals...

Go to:

http://www.dtv.gov

February 17, 2009 is the date that all LOCAL broadcasters must cease & decist broadcasting analog (NTSC) signals.

Any TV or recording device (Tivo series 1, series 2) that currently uses an NTSC tuner will no longer have any "signals" to "Tune" to on 2-17-2009.

TV's & other recording devices (Tivo S1, s2), DVD recorders, VCR's will continue to work with Cable & Sat. or with "Digital to Analog Conversion boxes"

Again for all the correct info.. go to:

http://www.dtv.gov

TexasGrillChef

[cwoody222]

Digital broadcasting is mandated. HD is not.

[sthor]

Its about time. 2005 would have been better.

I can't see how it will hurt anyone and it will ultimately improve our HD sources.

[Jerry_K]

I bet there are many millions with rabbit ears, foil, old contraptions on the roof and the like who will be just a tad upset when they turn on the old telly and get nada. The conversion box will most likely cost more than the contraption and the TV which may be 30 years old.

[tenthplanet]

I bet there are many millions with rabbit ears, foil, old contraptions on the roof and the like who will be just a tad upset when they turn on the old telly and get nada. The conversion box will most likely cost more than the contraption and the TV which may be 30 years old.

If there are any number of these people left. Most people in cities have had to have cable to get anything appraoching a watchable TV signal. Most TV's of any vintage will long dead peplaced by newer ones.

[mwarner]

If there are any number of these people left. Most people in cities have had to have cable to get anything appraoching a watchable TV signal. Most TV's of any vintage will long dead peplaced by newer ones.

I think there are more of those people than you think. I was getting my car worked on the other day and the TV in the waiting lounge was picking up a local TV station over the air. And that TV was at least 10 years old. So, they will be affected.

I would bet that the deadline will be pushed back yet again. Once Mr and Mrs John Q Public, living out in the boonies start calling their congressman/women about missing their 'stories' in the afternoon, laws will be amended to delay a little longer.

-Matt

[sthor]

I bet there are many millions with rabbit ears, foil, old contraptions on the roof and the like who will be just a tad upset when they turn on the old telly and get nada. The conversion box will most likely cost more than the contraption and the TV which may be 30 years old.

Looks like the feds are getting ready to make us pay to provide them with subsidized converter boxes.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv/FAQ_v6_07212006.htm

[Jerry_K]

Words that should make you shiver, and then run as fast as you can.

"I am from the government, and I am here to help you."

[TexasGrillChef]

The law was written so that it would not allow congress or the FCC to "Extend" the date past February 17th, 2009. Congress doesnt have any plans or any bills currently pending to "extend" that date either, or repeal the first law mandating the February 17th, 2009 deadline.

To: Cwoody222... When I said switch to Digital/HD the slash was meant to refer to the fact that the local broadcaster could swithc to either or both, not that he had to switch to both. My bad for not explaining that clearly.


yes there are still millions of people out there that are using OTA, and have no desire to switch to cable &/or sat.

Here in the Dallas area, at several local Best Buy's and Circuit Cities, I saw several Digital to Analog Conversion boxes being sold in a price range from $69 to $299. If you use yoru $40 government coupon thats only $29...

$29 is less then a carton of "Cancer sticks" so easy enough.. those who smoke and use an OTA... have a choice.. LOL!

Sadly, sacrafices have to be made to make progress in this world. Its sad.. but true... as much as many may not like it... Digital TV is coming, and analog is going away.

TexasGrillChef

[vstone]

Texas Grill Chef: When the Congress passed the bill authorizing the Glen Canyon Dam (think Lake Powell in Arizona and Utah), the bill required that a holding dam be built to keep the water from encroaching on the area around an arch known (I think) as Rainbow Bridge. Congress never funded the holding dam and it was never built.

In Washington, nothing is carved in stone but the buildings.

The saddest parts about this in the bungling (on purpose or otherwise) of the transition by the FCC and, especially, the FCC's failure to properly educate the public about digital television. Close behind is the misinformation available from consumer electronics salesmen, big box and small merchant included.

[CraigHB]

I don't think $29 for a digital converter is too much to ask of the public. There's hasn't been an upgrade to broacast television in in over 50 years. A lot has changed in that time and just about all of it has required a heck of a lot more than $29 to "get with the times".

[kb7oeb]

I read that one PBS station somewhere in California went digital only and shut down their analog transmitter. They lost more viewers than they excepcted but it was also in 2003 ( I think)

Has anyone head of any other stations shutting down analog before 2009? I'd think as we get closer stations won't want to spend much maintaining the analog transmitter since some (or much?) of it won't be useable for digtial.

Just for reference the most recent model Samsung ATSC over the air tuner goes for around $169, so they still have time to get cheaper.

[MichaelK]

The law was written so that it would not allow congress or the FCC to "Extend" the date past February 17th, 2009. Congress doesnt have any plans or any bills currently pending to "extend" that date either, or repeal the first law mandating the February 17th, 2009 deadline.

To: Cwoody222... When I said switch to Digital/HD the slash was meant to refer to the fact that the local broadcaster could swithc to either or both, not that he had to switch to both. My bad for not explaining that clearly.


yes there are still millions of people out there that are using OTA, and have no desire to switch to cable &/or sat.

Here in the Dallas area, at several local Best Buy's and Circuit Cities, I saw several Digital to Analog Conversion boxes being sold in a price range from $69 to $299. If you use yoru $40 government coupon thats only $29...

$29 is less then a carton of "Cancer sticks" so easy enough.. those who smoke and use an OTA... have a choice.. LOL!

Sadly, sacrafices have to be made to make progress in this world. Its sad.. but true... as much as many may not like it... Digital TV is coming, and analog is going away.

TexasGrillChef

Democrats with there new majority are already grumbling that it's too soon...


http://www.tvweek.com/news.cms?newsId=11084

I thought when the current law got passed that it WAS a done deal.

AS every day gets closer and there are no warnings to joe sixpack not to buy NTSC only devices I get more and more skeptical.

Beyond the lack of efffective education (one of the beefs from the democrats)- the lack of converter boxes is just plain SCARY. Estimates are all over the place as to how many coverter boxes will be needed- even the most optimistic say 15-20 million are needed. Others thing 2 to 3 times that. Since you cant easily find a box today I find it hard to beleive that ANYONE can just wip out 15 million boxes in the next 2 years. WIthout a single peep in the press about anyone working to produce such boxes it seems thats just plain impossible. WHo is going to build all those boxes? WHo is going to invest the pile of capital to built a factory capable of punching out a million boxes a month when the hypothetical retail is around $50 and you know that the market basically disaapears shortly after the conversion.

I no longer think the "hard" date is so certain anymore....

[CraigHB]

Heck, I bet by 2009, you'll see than at Walmart for $9.99. BTW, a converter may not necesarily be the same as a tuner. A tuner needs to output in various formats including DVI, HDMI, component, composite, etc. A converter simply needs to output an analog signal, typcially over coax cable.

[MichaelK]

I don't think $29 for a digital converter is too much to ask of the public. There's hasn't been an upgrade to broacast television in in over 50 years. A lot has changed in that time and just about all of it has required a heck of a lot more than $29 to "get with the times".


I haven't seen a converter box in retail anyplace around here.

But if they were just $69 with a $40 credit that's no biggie.

[MichaelK]

Heck, I bet by 2009, you'll see than at Walmart for $9.99. BTW, a converter may not necesarily be the same as a tuner. A tuner needs to output in various formats including DVI, HDMI, component, composite, etc. A converter simply needs to output an analog signal, typcially over coax cable.


yup- basically you need an ATSC tuner that can output 480i via NTSC on a coax to channel 2/3/4.

[kb7oeb]

Maybe, but it must still be able to process HD signals so I don't know if leaving out HD connections will save enough money to be worth the lost capabilities.

I've recently seen ATSC tuners at Best Buy, Circuit City and Fry's Electronics though they are becoming rarer since many sets sold now have them built in.

[mick66]

Any TV or recording device (Tivo series 1, series 2) that currently uses an NTSC tuner will no longer have any "signals" to "Tune" to on 2-17-2009.


That affects OTA only. Cable TV is not directly affected.

[CraigHB]

Maybe, but it must still be able to process HD signals so I don't know if leaving out HD connections will save enough money to be worth the lost capabilities.
There's some amount of processing involved in preparing Digital OTA signals for HDMI or DVI. That requires more hardware and more firmware which translates to higher production costs. What you're saying may be true for component and composite outputs since they're actually an analog medium, but I do believe a simple converter is going to be significantly less expensive to manufacture than a full-on tuner. Also, initial sales for converters should be pretty large and that will offset manufacturing costs as well.

We're not seeing converters on shelves right now because not many stations have shut down their analog transmitters. That will change when they do decide it's time to mothball them.

[MichaelK]

There's some amount of processing involved in preparing Digital OTA signals for HDMI or DVI. That requires more hardware and more firmware which translates to higher production costs. What you're saying may be true for component and composite outputs since they're actually an analog medium, but I do believe a simple converter is going to be significantly less expensive to manufacture than a full-on tuner. Also, initial sales for converters should be pretty large and that will offset manufacturing costs as well.

We're not seeing converters on shelves right now because not many stations have shut down their analog transmitters. That will change when they do decide it's time to mothball them.



2 thoughts I have (not directly in resonponse but you made me think):

1)- it's a chicken and egg thing. How can stations shut down their analog signal if there aren't converters on the shelves?

2) just an FYI- when congress held hearings the box manufacturers (specifically LG if I recall) talked about the 'coupon' boxes being in the $50 price range and being really bare bones without fancy outputs. (it's been a while so I'm unsure if they said no digital outputs or no HD at all)-

Even assuming it's just a dollar a box more to include such things- there's going to be tens of millions of boxes sold- the price point is very sensitive (particularly more so now with a Democratic Congress already makign noise about fairness and conversion costs to consumers). So it's not like they can just at a dollar or 2 to the MSRP and make it back. Adding anything basically takes tens of millions of dollars of profit out of the manufacturers pockets.

Maybe some one will step in and make upmarket boxes with comonent or digital outputs. But at this point I dont even see anyone announcing they are building a new plant in China to wip out millions of boxes in time for the shut down. So who knows. (as some one posted above and has been posted elsewhere the boxes are becoming more and more scarce at retail for some reason....)

[BobCamp1]

Maybe, but it must still be able to process HD signals so I don't know if leaving out HD connections will save enough money to be worth the lost capabilities.

I've recently seen ATSC tuners at Best Buy, Circuit City and Fry's Electronics though they are becoming rarer since many sets sold now have them built in.

There are none locally here anymore. And they certainly weren't in the price ranges that people are talking about here.

This cut off will not happen for another 10 years or so. It doesn't look like everything will be in place.

[MichaelK]

made me wonder.

I searched bestbuy.com and I cant find a converter box (I tried "ATSC" and "TV converter" and "HD tuner" and found nothing- maybe they list it something else?).

Circuit city lists one samsung model for 179 but it's out of stock online and isn't in the 2 closest stores to me - but is in the third closest store to my zip.

Fry's.com I cant find any either.

Cant find any at RadioShack.com or Walmart.com either.

I tried the samsung model number at shopper.net and it's not listed.

the boxes are AWOL. :-)

[dt_dc]

This cut off will not happen for another 10 years or so. It doesn't look like everything will be in place.Keep an eye on the (700MHz) spectrum auction ... seems like a better indication of when the transition will actually happen than anything.

$15 billion can make alot of things get "in place" ... and if there's a surplus, even more so. OTOH, if you're going to fall short of the number you're planning on (and have already spent) ... or if there's lawsuits and other regulatory issues holding up the auction ...

Anway, watch the spectrum auctions ... they're driving the whole thing in the first place.

[kb7oeb]

made me wonder.

I searched bestbuy.com and I cant find a converter box (I tried "ATSC" and "TV converter" and "HD tuner" and found nothing- maybe they list it something else?).

Circuit city lists one samsung model for 179 but it's out of stock online and isn't in the 2 closest stores to me - but is in the third closest store to my zip.

Fry's.com I cant find any either.

Cant find any at RadioShack.com or Walmart.com either.

I tried the samsung model number at shopper.net and it's not listed.

the boxes are AWOL. :-)

Bestbuy.com has them under Electronics->HDTV Tuners
http://www.bestbuy.com/site//olspage.jsp?id=cat03022&type=category

Radio shack used to have one, I bought it on closeout for $80

[TexasGrillChef]

The deadline is February 17th, 2009.

I honestly dont' beleive or want the date to be pushed back. Digital has to Be forced on the people wether they like it or not.

2nd.. the bandwith airspace that will be created by discontinuing Analog broadcasts are going to used for Military, Emergency services and Cell phone companies.

The DEMAND for this airspcae by the Military, Emergency Services & the amount of money Cell Phone companies are willing to pay our govenrment for the air space. is what is going to KEEP the deadline at 2-17-2009

The governement is chomping at the bits for the 10 BILLION plus dollars Cell phone companies are willing to pay for that air space. The Military & emergency services also NEED a portion of the airspace too.

As a result, the February 17th, 2009 deadline will remain in effect. I am willing to be $50,000 on it too. Anyone want to take me up on that offer?

Digital is an issue that will have to be forced. Example.. my mom refuses to get HD Tv.. until she has too. Many millions of people are like her. They won't buy conversion boxes or a new TV till they have too.

Thus... if people aren't willing to buy a HD TV or conversion box till they have too. We then have to pass laws that will force the issue. It sucks I know.. but something has to be done to one, free up the airspace. & two get people swtiched over.

Conversion boxes:

The bare bones boxes that will be around $29, to $79 (with the $40 coupon) will be bare bones. No digital, Component, or HDMI out It isn't needed. The ONLY purpose of a bare bones Digital to Analog conversion box is to allow and OLDER NTSC tv to view Digital broadcasts. Thats its ONLY purpose. That is why its bare bones. Best buy & Circuit city here in the Dallas area both have them. Currently without coupon they are selling for $99.


I did a little research:
Currently there are about 5.5 million households in american with HDTV's.
An average of 35,000 HDTV's are sold each month in the USA
HDTV vendors are estimating that this Christmas 850,000 HDTV's will be sold.
(Sears, BB, CC, etc...). Through a freind of mine who works for Pioneer, Pioneer is hoping to sell and has wharehoused over 86,000 Pioneer plasma HDTV's to be sold this christmas.

The FCC estimates that by February 17th, 2009 that aproximately 65% of households will have HDTV's. They estimate that by February 17th, 2009 that aproximately 85% will either have HDTV's or be on Cable/Sat.

Therefore if 85% of america is on cable/Sat or have HDTV.. that only leaves 15% of america to outfit with Conversion boxes.

Sadly its those 15% that will have the most difficulty paying for those boxes. Even at $29.

A deadline has to be set for everyone. Right or wrong. It has to be done & the deadline has to be kept in place. There are always "laggers" people who hate inovation and want to keep us who are "early adopters" from enjoying new technology.

Like it or not Digital & HD are coming. Get used to it! lol

TexasGrillChef

For the complete facts... please check out the official info site on Digital/HD at:

Http://www.dtv.gov

[CraigHB]

Hey, I'm all for it. Those people with their tin-foil rabbit eared analog TV's will just have to pony-up and pay for a box. It's not too much to ask. It's better for everyone, not just those who want the bandwidth. With respect to the consumer, digital OTA broadcasting performs better than analog and it adds the capability for interactive content.

[bicker]

1)- it's a chicken and egg thing. How can stations shut down their analog signal if there aren't converters on the shelves?Unless the law is changed, they won't have a choice. That would tend to help establish in the minds of CE makers the imminent demand, and therefore will prompt them to seek to serve that demand.

2) just an FYI- when congress held hearings the box manufacturers (specifically LG if I recall) talked about the 'coupon' boxes being in the $50 price range and being really bare bones without fancy outputs. (it's been a while so I'm unsure if they said no digital outputs or no HD at all)-I agree. The basic converters must have outputs necessary to drive legacy televisions, so that means coax/RF (channel 3/4), and MAYBE (but not necessarily) composite A/V.

[MichaelK]

Bestbuy.com has them under Electronics->HDTV Tuners
http://www.bestbuy.com/site//olspage.jsp?id=cat03022&type=category

Radio shack used to have one, I bought it on closeout for $80


Thanks for the best buy lingk- semms they only have that same samsung for $179.

It's one backorder at bestbuy.com

out of stock in 3 of the 6 stores it shows near my zip code.

Rat shack had that deal but doesn't seem to have anything new.

the boxes just dont exist in any significant amount.

it's going to be a mess.

[MichaelK]

The deadline is February 17th, 2009.

I honestly dont' beleive or want the date to be pushed back. Digital has to Be forced on the people wether they like it or not.

2nd.. the bandwith airspace that will be created by discontinuing Analog broadcasts are going to used for Military, Emergency services and Cell phone companies.

The DEMAND for this airspcae by the Military, Emergency Services & the amount of money Cell Phone companies are willing to pay our govenrment for the air space. is what is going to KEEP the deadline at 2-17-2009

The governement is chomping at the bits for the 10 BILLION plus dollars Cell phone companies are willing to pay for that air space. The Military & emergency services also NEED a portion of the airspace too.

As a result, the February 17th, 2009 deadline will remain in effect. I am willing to be $50,000 on it too. Anyone want to take me up on that offer?

Digital is an issue that will have to be forced. Example.. my mom refuses to get HD Tv.. until she has too. Many millions of people are like her. They won't buy conversion boxes or a new TV till they have too.

Thus... if people aren't willing to buy a HD TV or conversion box till they have too. We then have to pass laws that will force the issue. It sucks I know.. but something has to be done to one, free up the airspace. & two get people swtiched over.

Conversion boxes:

The bare bones boxes that will be around $29, to $79 (with the $40 coupon) will be bare bones. No digital, Component, or HDMI out It isn't needed. The ONLY purpose of a bare bones Digital to Analog conversion box is to allow and OLDER NTSC tv to view Digital broadcasts. Thats its ONLY purpose. That is why its bare bones. Best buy & Circuit city here in the Dallas area both have them. Currently without coupon they are selling for $99.


I did a little research:
Currently there are about 5.5 million households in american with HDTV's.
An average of 35,000 HDTV's are sold each month in the USA
HDTV vendors are estimating that this Christmas 850,000 HDTV's will be sold.
(Sears, BB, CC, etc...). Through a freind of mine who works for Pioneer, Pioneer is hoping to sell and has wharehoused over 86,000 Pioneer plasma HDTV's to be sold this christmas.

The FCC estimates that by February 17th, 2009 that aproximately 65% of households will have HDTV's. They estimate that by February 17th, 2009 that aproximately 85% will either have HDTV's or be on Cable/Sat.

Therefore if 85% of america is on cable/Sat or have HDTV.. that only leaves 15% of america to outfit with Conversion boxes.

Sadly its those 15% that will have the most difficulty paying for those boxes. Even at $29.

A deadline has to be set for everyone. Right or wrong. It has to be done & the deadline has to be kept in place. There are always "laggers" people who hate inovation and want to keep us who are "early adopters" from enjoying new technology.

Like it or not Digital & HD are coming. Get used to it! lol

TexasGrillChef

For the complete facts... please check out the official info site on Digital/HD at:

Http://www.dtv.gov


I agree it's a positive move- but even if just 15% ate OTA only that's 15 MILLION boxes. Never mond anyone that might want to get one for the spare TV in the garage connected to rabbit ears or what not.

It's neat to see that they sell the boxes someplace but here in the NY DMA they dont exist in sizable numbers at retail. I once read someplace that texas has the most OTA households- so maybe that's why they have them there- bigger market for them?

I think you are on crack to bet so much on something so iffy. :D :eek: LOL


Before the election I would have thought it better then 50/50 but far from a done deal. With the new party coming into power already grumbling about the deadline wthout even being in power yet it seems less likely then before and a much more uncertain (Totally not political- just the facts- the Democrats are starting to grumble)

[MichaelK]

Unless the law is changed, they won't have a choice. That would tend to help establish in the minds of CE makers the imminent demand, and therefore will prompt them to seek to serve that demand.
....


It seems very possible that CE companies have looked at that imminent demand and decided that it isn't worth the risks involved to invest in huge new production asetts just to punch out low priced low margin goods which can be sold at huge volumes for a short period of time.


here's a chart with the volume of DVD players sold per month:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

in 2006 they are only going to sell 12.5 million. EDIT : SORRY didn't notice doesnt include the 4th quarter- looks like it's trending to still be below the 22 million peak of 2003) The peak year was 2003 with 22 million after 5 years of ramping up production. There's a need for a lot of capacity to make 15-20-25 million boxes in 2 years time.

It will be interesting to see if it materializes or if there are shortages that drive up costs. And if so what does congress do about it- increase subsidies? - postpone the transition? - create a phased plan by area? - Put out a contract so the government buys 10 million Haliburton converters and then hands them out? (and does the president agree to go along with congress' plan....)