S3 only usable TIVO come Feb 2008?

[dnorth12]

Hopefully I have the date correct.

It is my understanding that in Feb 2008 is when broadcasters are required to turn off the analog broadcast and turn on their digital broadcast.

Assuming the above is correct, will that make my S2 a boat anchor or will the cable companies still provide some sort of analog feed of the HD signals that the S2 can process? Or will one need a converter box that will go between the wall and S2?

Is it just required of the over the air broadcasters or will USA and TBS etc be required to provide an HD signal?

I ask this question because I see all the S2's being practically given away and wonder to what end if they are pretty much useless in another year or so?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[ashu]

With a cable box providing you an analogized version of the digital feed (hopefully even a cablecard-capable cable box by then, if they stop wriggling out of that requirement by then) will let your TiVo record whatever the cable box sends out, just like it does now.

But yes, for direct tuning, you would need an S3.

There is wide speculation that there will be a non-HD CableCard-based decrypting TiVo for digital cable someday before then. Or maybe I dreamt it up!

[bidger]

I thought it was 2009.

If you're using OTA then there will be converters for digital to the analog signal the TiVo needs.

And the conversion is to digital, not to all HD.

[HiDefGator]

I don't believe cable companies are required to stop carrying analog signals. They just can't be broadcast through the air.

[zalusky]

How many cable companies want to waste bandwidth broadcasting analog. They can broadcast quite a few digital channels in the 70 or so analog channel space. With the push for HD channels offerings this is going to be quite valuable.

Now they can have a channel 3 out or a composite video/audio out that the Tivo box could pick up. That would require a cable box in front of every Tivo box. I believe this is the likely scenario.

[Runch Machine]

The data for the over the air analog shut off is February 2009. I can't remember if it is Feb 17 or 19 but it's in the middle of February 2009.

[Adam1115]

How many cable companies want to waste bandwidth broadcasting analog. They can broadcast quite a few digital channels in the 70 or so analog channel space. With the push for HD channels offerings this is going to be quite valuable.

The ones that don't want to lose the majority of their customers who are still on analog.

[dnorth12]

Thanks for the responses.

I kind of had 2009 in the back of mind, but wasn't sure.

Am I right in my thinking that the only TIVO that can handle digital signals at this point is the S3? I don't need or necessarily want HD capability in the bedroom (I may never get of out bed), but in Feb 09 I will need digital capability and doing it without TIVO is just not acceptable.

I have a S3 in my living (TV) room and have the S2 in the bedroom. Unfortunately where I live OTA is totally useless and as I see it, it is going to be kind of expensive to keep the bedroom setup working without going back to a Comcast dvr (which we all know is a piece of crap). Another S3 and another LCD or Plasma display.

[Jerry_K]

Brought to you by the same jolly folks who collect taxes. Call 'em up and thank 'em.

[mwarner]

Am I right in my thinking that the only TIVO that can handle digital signals at this point is the S3? I don't need or necessarily want HD capability in the bedroom (I may never get of out bed), but in Feb 09 I will need digital capability and doing it without TIVO is just not acceptable.


Again, if you are on cable, then there probably won't be a change for you in 2009. The only change will be for people who receive their television signals via an over the air antenna. If your cable system does decide to go all digital (which they don't have to do by 2009), then they would provide you with a cable box to allow the S2 TiVo to continue working.

If you do receive signals via an over the air antenna into a TiVo S1 or S2, then, yes, some sort of box will be required to continue receiving those signals.

-Matt

[Scopeman]

Hopefully I have the date correct.

Assuming the above is correct, will that make my S2 a boat anchor or will the cable companies still provide some sort of analog feed of the HD signals that the S2 can process? Or will one need a converter box that will go between the wall and S2?

Is it just required of the over the air broadcasters or will USA and TBS etc be required to provide an HD signal?

I ask this question because I see all the S2's being practically given away and wonder to what end if they are pretty much useless in another year or so?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Here is a good way to think about this: The Tivo accepts the same sort of analog signal as the majority of TVs. So no matter how the signal is delivered to the home, it normally has to be converted into a standard analog signal. And Tivo is compatible with that signal.

So until the majority of TVs are "digitial input" then the S1 and S2 will be fine.

[Jazhuis]

Brought to you by the same jolly folks who collect taxes. Call 'em up and thank 'em.

I'd love to, except that the cutover was supposed to happen THIS year. The FCC backed down at least twice over it.

Note that this just has to do with OTA local broadcasting, not cable service. Since cable companies are using their own infrastructure, as opposed to the public-owned broadcast spectrum, they can keep using analog forever, if they wanted.

[vstone]

As for analog cable channels, you are at the mercy of the cable company. However, it appears that the Democratic Congress may be interested in this issue

[GomezAddams]

The 2009 cut-off only applies to over the air TV.. There is no provision for cable companies to remove their old analog signals. They will have to carry the OTA networks in HD since that is all there will be left.. But all other cable channels can stay analog if they wish to do so..

[mattack]

Am I right in my thinking that the only TIVO that can handle digital signals at this point is the S3?


and the (out of production but still available?) DirecTV/OTA HD combination. (I don't know if it can do QAM.. probably not since it doesn't have cable card slots)

[TexasGrillChef]

The Date is February 17th, 2009.

Yes the Only TIVO that will be able to used for OTA is the Series 3.

Series 2 & Series 1 Tivo's will still work if you have cable, or if you connect them to a Sat receiver.

Series 1 & Series 2 units will work with "DOWN Conversion boxes" but only with LIMITED results.

So the answer to your question IS a YES... AFter 2-17-09.... If you use only an OTA then the series 3 will be your only answer...

Keep in mind though.. thats still about 810 days away. I am sure OTHER alternatives will be available by then

TexasGrillChef

[TexasGrillChef]

P.S.

Inside scoop... Most all "Cable/Sat" only stations... such as SCI-FI, USA, etc.... will be converting to true Digital with some HD shows by 2010.

2015, it has bee projected that all (Cable/Sat) TV Stations will be converted to true Digital with either 100% HD programing or at least 50% HD programing.

HD is coming whether you like it or not.

Currently the S3 & Cable/Sat DVR's are the only "Consumer" boxes that will record HD programing.


FOR MORE INFORMATION about FEBRUARY 17th, 2009 and Local Broadcasters switching to Digital/HD & not broadcasting NTSC signals anymore...

GO TO: http://www.DTV.gov

That is the web site setup by the FCC to answer all your questions about the Digital/HD switch on 2-17-2009


TexasGrillChef

[ZeoTiVo]

P.S.

Inside scoop... Most all "Cable/Sat" only stations... such as SCI-FI, USA, etc.... will be converting to true Digital with some HD shows by 2010.

2015, it has bee projected that all (Cable/Sat) TV Stations will be converted to true Digital with either 100% HD programing or at least 50% HD programing. can you cite any sources for this? Over 40% of cable customers are still analog - that will be a significant amount of work for these cable companies to make sure those customers do not loose service and do not leave the cable company.

[btwyx]

Over 40% of cable customers are still analog - that will be a significant amount of work for these cable companies to make sure those customers do not loose service and do not leave the cable company.One idea for that is the "Residential gateway", which tunes digital cable and spits out 70 analog channels. That way analog users don't have to be bothered about the transition, the cable company just needs to put a small box where the cable enters the house. There's a company making one chip (http://www.broadlogic.com/tpix.htm) which has all the logic to do this, so it should be cheap to make.

[moyekj]

One idea for that is the "Residential gateway", which tunes digital cable and spits out 70 analog channels. That way analog users don't have to be bothered about the transition, the cable company just needs to put a small box where the cable enters the house. There's a company making one chip (http://www.broadlogic.com/tpix.htm) which has all the logic to do this, so it should be cheap to make. This kind of goes against Switched Digital Video - if at least 1 customer in a node has such a device then all channels will be "requested" all the time and hence no switching off. Though if cable company can employ this to get rid of all analog channels on their main pipelines I suppose SDV would no longer be needed.

[bidger]

Yes the Only TIVO that will be able to used for OTA is the Series 3.
Again, there will be converters for people who haven't upgraded to a digital TV to convert the OTA digital signal to the analog signal a S1 or S2 TiVo needs. Since TiVo can control cable STBs and sat. receivers, I don't see why it wouldn't be able to control one of these devices.

ETA: I'm glad to see you mentioned that fact in the thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=328207) you started.

[Adam1115]

Again, there will be converters for people who haven't upgraded to a digital TV to convert the OTA digital signal to the analog signal a S1 or S2 TiVo needs. Since TiVo can control cable STBs and sat. receivers, I don't see why it wouldn't be able to control one of these devices.

ETA: I'm glad to see you mentioned that fact in the thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=328207) you started.

Unfortunately though, the Series2's do NOT support OTA STB's...

[btwyx]

This kind of goes against Switched Digital Video - if at least 1 customer in a node has such a device then all channels will be "requested" all the time and hence no switching off. Though if cable company can employ this to get rid of all analog channels on their main pipelines I suppose SDV would no longer be needed.Going all digital should put off the need for SDV at least for a while, and having residential gateways would not kill SDV, they'd be constantly tuned to the 70 channels that used to be analog. The other 930 channels in your 1000 channel system would be fair game for SDV.

[btwyx]

Unfortunately though, the Series2's do NOT support OTA STB's...Why not?

How does the S2 tell its an OTA box vs a cable box to not support it?

[vman41]

Why not?

How does the S2 tell its an OTA box vs a cable box to not support it?

For it to be usable by your TiVo, the TiVo has to know the IR codes to control it and tivo.com has to configure a channel lineup for it. It's a case of don't support, not can't support, perhaps they could be persuaded.

[GusMan]

For it to be usable by your TiVo, the TiVo has to know the IR codes to control it and tivo.com has to configure a channel lineup for it. It's a case of don't support, not can't support, perhaps they could be persuaded.
There is always a software update.... :)

[bidger]

The more I think about it, it's a valid question.

The TiVo would have to be able understand the dash (-) that's required to be entered for ATSC stations. Maybe that's a software issue, but obviously it's not something that can be entered on the remote.

It would be nice to have a TiVo rep clarify this.

[zalusky]

You know I see people just replacing their Tivo boxes with Digital capable DVR's whether it be OTA or capable. From a financial point of view the cable company has various options:
1) Completely switch to digital creating lots of channels effectively fighting with Satellite and ATT
Using SDV on little used channels. Providing basic boxes or DVR boxes to customers.
2) Just keep doing what their doing with quality issues and capacity issues and slipping against the competition in product.
3) Convert to digital and provide an analog converter replicating their old situation. The cost of ramping up and providing analog converters is not a marketing win for them giving the opportunities with basic DVR vs the additional cost.

Why spend money and build boxes that take you backwards and create more wiring patchwork and associated support calls for customers. Why not spend a little more and go digital with basic DVR / SDV and market away.

When echostar was going to buy DTV, they said they were going to replace all the set top boxes as part of the deal to provide a unified modern technology.

Yes a number of cable companies are still on 550 MHZ systems but thats a different issue of capacity and on demand, if anything this ups that capacity issue until they rebuild the plant.

From an OTA point of view, yes people will buy converter boxes but I can see companies such as Tivo, Microsoft, and consumer electronics people simply using that as a way to get DVR, gaming consoles to be purchased instead. Or at least digital tuners that connect to the gaming consoles

Its a big market opty and I dont see the major players wanting sell the past.

[cwoody222]

The 2009 cut-off only applies to over the air TV.. There is no provision for cable companies to remove their old analog signals. They will have to carry the OTA networks in HD since that is all there will be left.. But all other cable channels can stay analog if they wish to do so..

No, not all local channels will be in HD in 2009. They will simply be sending only digital signals over the air.

Cable can still continue to send analog cable to your house and will probably convert the local stations' to analog. And if the local station sends both SD and HD then the cable co will probably send the SD to analog.

[vman41]

The more I think about it, it's a valid question.

The TiVo would have to be able understand the dash (-) that's required to be entered for ATSC stations. Maybe that's a software issue, but obviously it's not something that can be entered on the remote.


They already did the groundwork for this in order to support the Series 3, they overload the skip-to-tick button to be the hyphen when entering a channel. Likewise, they've been obtaining guide data from Tribune for all the digital sub-channels (.e.g. MyTV) carried over the air.

[Adam1115]

No, not all local channels will be in HD in 2009. They will simply be sending only digital signals over the air.

Cable can still continue to send analog cable to your house and will probably convert the local stations' to analog. And if the local station sends both SD and HD then the cable co will probably send the SD to analog.

I'm so sick of people "correcting" people that we aren't switching to HD, but "Digital". Bottom line: Digital OTA and HD are the same thing. EVERY MAJOR NETWORK is broadcasting prime time in HD. Sure, maybe PAX, PBS, and a couple of shopping channels aren't, but for the most part, they are all HD. For all intents and purposes we are talking about the same thing. Why keep 'correcting' people when we really know what the story is...

[moyekj]

I'm so sick of people "correcting" people that we aren't switching to HD, but "Digital". Bottom line: Digital OTA and HD are the same thing. EVERY MAJOR NETWORK is broadcasting prime time in HD. Sure, maybe PAX, PBS, and a couple of shopping channels aren't, but for the most part, they are all HD. For all intents and purposes we are talking about the same thing. Why keep 'correcting' people when we really know what the story is... In Los Angeles area alone there are more digital SD OTA transmissions than HD, something like a 70/30 ratio in favor of SD, so it is a valid point, not to mention that some of the HD channels are not true HD because they only show upconverted 480i programs even during primetime. Granted many of those channels are "garbage" local broadcasters as you say and everything I bother to watch OTA is in HD, but nonetheless I think the point is still valid.

[btwyx]

They already did the groundwork for this in order to support the Series 3,Not forgetting they did it 3 years ago on the HR10-250.

[Electricllama]

I'm so sick of people "correcting" people that we aren't switching to HD, but "Digital". Bottom line: Digital OTA and HD are the same thing. EVERY MAJOR NETWORK is broadcasting prime time in HD. Sure, maybe PAX, PBS, and a couple of shopping channels aren't, but for the most part, they are all HD. For all intents and purposes we are talking about the same thing. Why keep 'correcting' people when we really know what the story is...

I am so sick of people who make patently false statements that serve only to confuse those who aren't widely versed on a subject. I am also sick of people who tear into others whose offense is trying to assist others in understanding.

Every major network is broadcasting prime time in HD... So what about the other 21 hours of the day? And what about the "non-major" networks (if there is such a thing) or more importantly, local OTA stations that aren't part of one of the "big networks" (there are still quite a few of these across the nation, though not nearly as many as there were 20 years ago).

The reason for the correction is because there are a lot of people confused about what equipment they need and what will be obsoleted. First and foremost, you won't be REQUIRED to have an HDTV set for quite some time in most areas. The networks aren't on the verge of eliminating their SD signals and even if they were, downsampling the HD signal to SD is trivial. Your SD set will be likely be useful for quite some time to come, whether it be via your cable operator delivered an SD analog signal, or by adding a simple device to convert the OTA digital to analog.

Too many people seem to forget that the majority of the populace doesn't have the expendable cash to waste on TiVo and new HDTV sets, etc. While HD sets have come down in price significantly, even the least expensive cost more the a couple of paychecks for a significant portion of the populace. While advertisers, network and cable execs would prefer that all of their viewers made 75K or better a year, it's simply not the case. Like it or not, they are going to have to find some way to cater to the lowest common denominator for some time to come. If all of a sudden a significant portion of the populace can't get access to the evening news due to economics, there is going to be a lot more noise from the populace than the gov't is going to ignore.

[TexasGrillChef]

Well it really doesn't matter if they are broadcasting TRUE HD, or DIGITAL SD... if you DON"T have a ATSC tuner... Then you WON"T be able to watch OTA.

Anyone using OTA with a NTSC tuner on February 17th, 2009, will NO longer receive any signals... Digital SD, or HD.

so keep in Mind...NTSC tuners will have nothing to watch on 2-17-2009. You will need a device with an ATSC tuner if you want to watch anything after 2-17-2009

all the information ANYONE needs is still at:

http://www.dtv.gov

texasGrillChef

P.S. inside scoop.. 98% of all TV stations, cable or otherwise will switch to Digital SD &/or HD by 2012

[TexasGrillChef]

P.P.S.

Money doesn't matter... if you don't have cable, Satalite, or a Digtial to Analog conversion box

AND

you use an OTA... after February 17th, 2009, you will not be able to watch any OTA live broadcasts.

It isn't an SD/HD issue... its a ATSC tuner or NTSC tuner issue.

Doesn't matter if the population doesn't have the money or not.. February 17th, 2009 is the deadline.

People without the money to buy the conversion boxes even with the $40 off coupon.. Will just have to do without... Life sucks sometimes. life isn't fair.. Oh well! Sucks being poor. I am truley sorry about that. But hey.. I want my HDTV!

texasgrillchef

[TexasGrillChef]

Like I said several times before..

All of the CORRECT information for anyone can & will be found at:

http://www.dtv.gov

And February 17th, 2009 is the date that all local broadcasting stations must cease & desist broadcasting of analog television signals.

NTSC tuners are not capable of picking up digital signals. Only ATSC tunes are capabile of picking up digital signals.

Thank you

TexasGrillChef

[cwoody222]

Bottom line:

If you use cable to obtain your TV, you will not be affected at all.
If you use satellite to obtain your TV, you will not be affect at all.

If you use an antenna, you will no longer be able to receive analog broadcasts and you'll have to buy a new antenna and either a new digital TV or a converter box. An antenna and converter box will cost less than $100.

If you use a Series1 or 2 TiVo the only functionality you will lose is if you receive some/all channels now via antenna.

If you use a Series3 you will not be affected at all.

This is not really a big deal at all. But I'm sure the media will make it out to be HUGE.


As for HD... we are still a LONG way away from 24 hours of HD from your local broadcasters. You'll still be getting a lot of upconverted 4:3 content for years which is NOT HD.

[vman41]

If you use an antenna, you will no longer be able to receive analog broadcasts and you'll have to buy a new antenna and either a new digital TV or a converter box.

If you have a UHF antenna now, you won't need a new antenna to tune digital TV.
It seems a pretty mixed bag about which stations doing VHF analog now will start using that frequency for ATSC or let it go and keep broadcasting on frequency assigned for digital broadcast.

We are a long way from 24 hour HD, but what people watch is 'prime time' programming and that is predominantly HD now, along with the network late night and morning shows.

[kb7oeb]

If you do receive signals via an over the air antenna into a TiVo S1 or S2, then, yes, some sort of box will be required to continue receiving those signals.

To date Tivo has refused to support digital over the air boxes. To do so they would need to create a lineup and an IR database. Many people have found codes already in the tivo software that will control existing boxes but still can't be used either because the channel numbers are wrong or the tivo sends 3 digits for the channel number and the box only accepts 2. (Ex: Tivo sends 015 for channel 15, box sees invalid channel 01 and then tunes to channel 5)

Re: analog cable

If your cable company removes analog they did it all on their own. One area of town where I live only has analog channels 2-25. They had a limited cable system so removing most of the analog channels was the only way they could offer advanced services like phone and internet. In this area you get a digital cable box for free even if you don't subscribe to "digital" cable.

I think all digital cable will turn out like satellite where the first box is included with service.

[CraigHB]

Whatever happens, networks will still have the option of broacasting in HD or SD. There's no mandate regarding that. The added bandwidth of digital broadcasting (ATSC) allows for one HD broadcast plus interactive content or 3 SD broadcasts on the same frequency. Some networks are currently using that expanded capacity to broadcast SD. In fact, that's the whole point of moving to digital, to expanded broadcast capacity.

The digital upgrade is not really a big deal for the consumer (it is for the networks), but people who aren't aware of the facts are making more of an issue out it than it warrents. Requiring people to buy a $29 STB to keep using their old analog TV's to receive OTA broadcasts is not something to get up-in-arms over.

People using non-S3 TiVo to tune OTA signals may have a bigger problem, but does any one really do that? I think most people tune their cable or satellite STB or tune analog cable directly. They won't be affected by this legislation. However, people that tune cable directly will be affected when their cable company decides it's time to drop analog service. Personally, I'm sure I'll be using something ATSC and digital cable ready by then (i.e. the S3). Even if I stick with satellite (which I don't plan on), an ATSC tuner is integrated into their DVR.

[TexasGrillChef]

Bottom line:

If you use cable with their STB or DVR you won't be affected

If you Sat with their STB or DVR you won't be affected

If use OTA then you will be affected. You will need either a new Digital or HDTV, and a antenae that is "Digital" capable. (UHF antenae should work).

If you use a S2 or S2 with your Cable / Sat STB you should be able to continue working as usual.

If you use a S1 or S2 with OTA... then you will need a conversion box.

If you have an S3 you are ok, you will get digital OTA broadcasting.

All HD shows are Digital, Not all digital is HD. Local Broadcasters will always continue showing shows in SD (4:3) format. However after 2-17-09 that SD will be broadcast in Digital.

Digital broadcasts can be in SD or HD. It is estimated that by 2012 all TV stations local, cable, or Sat. Will be digital. It is estimated that by 2015, all "NEW" programing will be HD.
By "new" programing, I am refering to new programs. Not rebroadcasts of older programs, re-runs, etc... Currently Most primetime programing by the major networks is in HD.

As commercial HD broadcasting equipment (Cameras, computers, recorders) get cheaper for "Content providers" you will start seeing more true HD programing.

One other thing to keep in mind. Currently all "NEW" TV's larger then 27" being sold are "Digital" ready or are a HDTV. All TV's manufactured after Jan 1st, 2006 & larger then 27" are supposed to include a ATSC tuner. Although I have seen at my local BB & CC a few TV's that don't have an ATSC tuner in them.

As the date gets closer to 2-17-2009, you will see more & more TV's and equipment capable of viewing/recording Digital &/or HD tv.

TexasGrillChef

[sommerfeld]

If use OTA then you will be affected. You will need either a new Digital or HDTV, and a antenae that is "Digital" capable. (UHF antenae should work).

Two corrections:
1) you don't need a new TV. Your existing TV will most likely work just fine with the addition of a digital set-top box.
2 ) Many/most UHF antennas built before digital television ever existed work just fine with digital OTA TV.

[CraigHB]

One other thing to keep in mind. Currently all "NEW" TV's larger then 27" being sold are "Digital" ready or are a HDTV. All TV's manufactured after Jan 1st, 2006 & larger then 27" are supposed to include a ATSC tuner.
True for the most part, but you can buy HD TV's without a tuner. My 37" flat-panel has 1080i native resolution, but does not have a tuner. It's more accurately called a monitor, but is still sold as a TV. Considering broadcasts are more often tuned via STB, you can save yourself $100 or so by purchasing a TV without a tuner. I wouldn't say TV monitors are common, but they are available.

[ashu]

My 37" flat-panel has 1080i native resolution, but does not have a tuner.

Are you SURE your flat-panel has 1080i NATIVE resolution? All flat (or flat-ish) panel TVs like LCD, Plasma (& DLP) are progressive by nature. Everything is ALWAYS converted to the native, progressive resolution.

Don't confuse 1080i input handling CAPABILITY for 1080i native display. It is (more than likely) a 720p(-ish) native display, unless you bought a 1080p display (in which case you'd already know all this :) )

[bidger]

The thing that encourages me about digital OTA, and I'm not sure this will be implemented, is that the only thing that can be done with a weak analog signal is to amplify it, while a digital signal can be regenerated. If that will come into play after the switchover, I don't know.

[mattack]

The thing that encourages me about digital OTA, and I'm not sure this will be implemented, is that the only thing that can be done with a weak analog signal is to amplify it, while a digital signal can be regenerated. If that will come into play after the switchover, I don't know.

What exactly do you mean? If you are trying to imply that digital is more recoverable to errors than analog, you are sorely mistaken.

With "errors" in an analog broadcast, you get snow, ghosting, moire patterns, etc., which make the signal increasingly unwatchable.

With errors in a digital broadcast, beyond a certain point, you get major artifacting and an *unwatchable* signal.

Don't get me wrong, I actually am likely to get an S3 (to use with OTA HD and possibly digital cable).. because *with a good signal*, it can look better. But the fact that analog can gracefully degrade with the zillions of splitters I have to feed my various video devices.... that is a good thing.

[bidger]

What exactly do you mean? If you are trying to imply that digital is more recoverable to errors than analog, you are sorely mistaken.
I'm talking about degradation of signal. A weak analog signal, one that you're on the fringe of receiving, not a strong analog signal that might have anomalies like you mention in it.

[kb7oeb]

If you use a S1 or S2 with OTA... then you will need a conversion box.

Tivo has not to my knowledge ever said they will support this and when I've asked was told they have no plans to.

[vman41]

Are you SURE your flat-panel has 1080i NATIVE resolution? All flat (or flat-ish) panel TVs like LCD, Plasma (& DLP) are progressive by nature. Everything is ALWAYS converted to the native, progressive resolution.


I believe a plasma screen technology called ALiS in inherently interlaced.

This model's outstanding brightness, clarity and contrast is due in part to cutting-edge ALiS panel technology. ALiS (Alternate Lighting of Surfaces) panels work in a way that's similar to interlaced-scan tube-type TVs. Typical plasma panels have a strip of electrodes for each horizontal line of plasma cells, while ALiS panels share an electrode strip between two lines of cells. These lines switch on and off rapidly 60 times per second, and at any given instant only half the panel's pixels are turned on. Because there is less screen "real estate" taken up by electrode strips, there's more phosphor area to be illuminated, and as a result, ALiS panels provide an exceptionally clear, bright image. Other ALiS benefits include high-efficiency — they require only half the voltage of conventional plasma drive systems — and extended panel life.

[BobCamp1]

I'm talking about degradation of signal. A weak analog signal, one that you're on the fringe of receiving, not a strong analog signal that might have anomalies like you mention in it.

If it's anything like DirecTV during a rain fade, then here's what to expect.

If the signal is a little weak, you're right -- you won't notice a thing.

If the signal is weak, you get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING or something with so many digital artifacts you cannot watch it.

If the signal is very weak, analog is preferred because your brain can filter out the snow. It c...t fil... o...t ...r p.... dr...p...d d...l .....

[ah30k]

What exactly do you mean? If you are trying to imply that digital is more recoverable to errors than analog, you are sorely mistaken.What folks generally refer to when stating Digital is more robust than analog is...

Digital signals can be:
1) Amplified and repeated without degradation. Analog will amplify noise as well as signal so it can not be amplified and repeated as well as digital.
2) Corrected for bit errors to a reasonable degree in the case of transmission failures.

Granted, if the signal is corrupted too much the digital stream will be unrecoverable but this is likely to be on a block level rather than the whole frame.

[BobCamp1]

A few things to note:

1. The 2-17-2009 is not etched in stone. It's law, but a new law could postpone the date. It also happens to be after a national election.

2. You will end up having to buy a new TV if it uses OTA. The converter boxes are estimated to be in the $150-$200 price range. It seems silly to buy a converter box which is worth more than the price of the TV you're attaching it to.

3. There are currently no low-end converter boxes available, and very few small TVs that have an ATSC tuner. No one has even acknowledged that this number needs to go from zero to a few million in just over 18 months. (Most people want to buy the box BEFORE the switch happens).

I have an NTSC TV in my kitchen, one in my garage, and one in my bedroom that just receive OTA. And on my main TV, I'll be forced to subscribe to my locals via DirecTV which involves installing a separate satellite dish (not sure where) and a multiplexer. No way I'm putting receivers in all three other locations. I'm not buying three converter boxes, either.

I don't think this transition will go as smoothly as the proponents say it will. The lower and middle class will end up paying quite a bit for it.

[CraigHB]

Are you SURE your flat-panel has 1080i NATIVE resolution? All flat (or flat-ish) panel TVs like LCD, Plasma (& DLP) are progressive by nature. Everything is ALWAYS converted to the native, progressive resolution.
It's an LCD with a 1366 x 768 pixel resolution so yea, it would be 720p native. Thanks for pointing that out. Pardon the error.

[CraigHB]

A few things to note:

1. The 2-17-2009 is not etched in stone. It's law, but a new law could postpone the date. It also happens to be after a national election.
If the industry hasn't migrated enough toward the new standard, my bet is the cut-off date will be pushed back. However, I think people understimate the ability of the electronics industry to adopt new standards quickly. Look at how much personal computers have changed over the years. The industry has been able to adjust to those new standards and technologies amazingly fast.

[bicker]

Well I think there is also a cost issue here. Practically every station in the country is now maintaining twice as many transmitters as they used to. An open-ended continuance of that cost is unfair to business.

[Shawn95GT]

Unfortunately though, the Series2's do NOT support OTA STB's...
I've been doing this for close to a year with my S2s and one of them is still doing it today.

That being said, the Tivo doesn't 'know' it's running an ATSC tuner.

I tell the Tivo I have Dish network and my local channels are on the low numbers. It tunes the 12 for channel 12 and my ATSC tuner translates 12 to 12-1. Low and behold the S2 is watching/recording 12-1. Dish even has the Digital channel's call signs in it's lineup.

The catch is that Dish doesn't cary everything I can get from the ATSC tuner so my recording choices are limited to the big networks. It is a VERY livable solution though.

MY current plan is to replace all the S2 / ATSC tuner combos with S3s, but for those who don't - Here's hoping for a $100ish ATSC tuner add-on from Tivo.

But the time NTSC is shut off the S3 may be attractively priced vs augmenting an aging S2.

[Adam1115]

I've been doing this for close to a year with my S2s and one of them is still doing it today.

That being said, the Tivo doesn't 'know' it's running an ATSC tuner.

I tell the Tivo I have Dish network and my local channels are on the low numbers. It tunes the 12 for channel 12 and my ATSC tuner translates 12 to 12-1. Low and behold the S2 is watching/recording 12-1. Dish even has the Digital channel's call signs in it's lineup.

The catch is that Dish doesn't cary everything I can get from the ATSC tuner so my recording choices are limited to the big networks. It is a VERY livable solution though.

MY current plan is to replace all the S2 / ATSC tuner combos with S3s, but for those who don't - Here's hoping for a $100ish ATSC tuner add-on from Tivo.

But the time NTSC is shut off the S3 may be attractively priced vs augmenting an aging S2.

Well sure, it can be done, of course the hardware supports it, but my statement was "the Series2's do NOT support OTA STB's" keyword support.

I don't know WHY they don't support it though.. :confused:

[jcaudle]

if you have a digital cable box, wouldn't tivo work ok since the cable box becomes the actual tuner?

[Shawn95GT]

if you have a digital cable box, wouldn't tivo work ok since the cable box becomes the actual tuner?
Yes - same/same.

[classicsat]

A few things to note:
2. You will end up having to buy a new TV if it uses OTA. The converter boxes are estimated to be in the $150-$200 price range. It seems silly to buy a converter box which is worth more than the price of the TV you're attaching it to.


Key word being "seems". In many cases, it is practical so spend up to $200 to keep a perfectly well functioning legacy TV working, especially if you recently bought the set, spent a bit for it at the time, and/or will have to pay a disposal fee to get rid of the set.

[vman41]

6 months before the cutoff, stations should shrink the analog brodcast image by 20% and have text in the frame it creates contain text warning that the signal will be going away and provide information about getting a converter box.

[moyekj]

6 months before the cutoff, stations should shrink the analog brodcast image by 20% and have text in the frame it creates contain text warning that the signal will be going away and provide information about getting a converter box. Guess that would be annoying to analog cable subscribers getting the analog OTA feed re-transmission. So hopefully the cable companies will have switched over to convert the digital feeds to analog by then for their analog channels. Will be interesting to see how they choose to deal with aspect ratio differences when converting HD feeds to NTSC. A lot of subscribers probably wouldn't like letterboxing.

[CraigHB]

Key word being "seems". In many cases, it is practical so spend up to $200 to keep a perfectly well functioning legacy TV working, especially if you recently bought the set, spent a bit for it at the time, and/or will have to pay a disposal fee to get rid of the set.
I don't know that I would agree. We have a 24" tube TV in the master bedroom we hardly use. It's a nice TV and cost around $500 several years ago. I don't think I would spend $200 to keep it fuctioning. I can get a 24" LCD TV for about the same price. I'd rather put that $200 into a new LCD TV than invest it into keeping the old tube TV going. It wont' come to that because I'll ineveitably be using a cable STB with it, but that's just what I would do. However, I still don't think ATSC converters will be that expensive in the end.

With respect to running S2 with ATSC converters, I don't think that's going to be something in great demand. By the time people *have* to switch to digital, the S3 will have come down in cost making it affordable for most people. TiVo would rather people buy an S3 than put resources into supporting S2 and converter boxes. I think it's a bit of "planned obsolesence" on their part.

[classicsat]

6 months before the cutoff, stations should shrink the analog brodcast image by 20% and have text in the frame it creates contain text warning that the signal will be going away and provide information about getting a converter box.

T minus 6 months I'd run PSA like announcements, and ramp up their circulation as the deadline approaches.

I'd do the crawl on each program at T minus 1 month, and continuous the last week.

That is, if the FCC doesn't dictate otherwise.

[Dajad]

I've rarely seen a thread on this forum with so much FUD!!!!

EVERY TiVo today will continue to work just fine after the conversion - PERIOD!!!!!

If you use OTA only today, you'll be able to pick up a converter box that will receive ATSC and convert it for NTSC input into TiVo for $100 or less. So what if TiVo never said it will support it. They never said they wouldn't. So long as the device uses standard IR inputs of course TiVo will extend their IR code support to this universal box! Why wouldn't they - they support hundreds of others today.

As for cable users - it don't matter a fig if you are an analogue or digital cable subscriber - EVERY cable box today and EVERY cable box for the next 20 years will have some form of analogue output for the old beasty TVs and this is all S1 and S2 TiVo will need. S3's are ready for the transition out-of-the-box. I've used FOUR different digital cable boxes over the last four or five years and all of them had either coax or S-video outs as well as component and/or DVI and/or HDMI for those with digital sets.

The answer is butt easy - if you own an analogue TiVo today, it's going to work for as long as you'll ever want to keep using it with whatever means of obtaining programming you wish as far out as the eye can see.

For more details then you'd ever want on the Feb 17, 2009 transition deadline, you can read the dozen or so related stories I've linked into my post here:

http://daledietrich.com/imedia/2006/02/08/bush-signs-digital-tv-transition-bill/


...Dale

[bidger]

If you use OTA only today, you'll be able to pick up a converter box that will receive ATSC and convert it for NTSC input into TiVo for $100 or less. So what if TiVo never said it will support it. They never said they wouldn't.
Well, would it be too much to have TiVo step forward and either confirm or deny that? As you say, "TiVo never said it will support it. They never said they wouldn't.". That leads to speculation for those of us affected.

[Adam1115]

I've rarely seen a thread on this forum with so much FUD!!!!

EVERY TiVo today will continue to work just fine after the conversion - PERIOD!!!!!

If you use OTA only today, you'll be able to pick up a converter box that will receive ATSC and convert it for NTSC input into TiVo for $100 or less. So what if TiVo never said it will support it. They never said they wouldn't. So long as the device uses standard IR inputs of course TiVo will extend their IR code support to this universal box! Why wouldn't they - they support hundreds of others today.

As for cable users - it don't matter a fig if you are an analogue or digital cable subscriber - EVERY cable box today and EVERY cable box for the next 20 years will have some form of analogue output for the old beasty TVs and this is all S1 and S2 TiVo will need. S3's are ready for the transition out-of-the-box. I've used FOUR different digital cable boxes over the last four or five years and all of them had either coax or S-video outs as well as component and/or DVI and/or HDMI for those with digital sets.

The answer is butt easy - if you own an analogue TiVo today, it's going to work for as long as you'll ever want to keep using it with whatever means of obtaining programming you wish as far out as the eye can see.

For more details then you'd ever want on the Feb 17, 2009 transition deadline, you can read the dozen or so related stories I've linked into my post here:

http://daledietrich.com/imedia/2006/02/08/bush-signs-digital-tv-transition-bill/


...Dale

Hate to break it to you, but the Series2 DT does NOT support OTA, PERIOD. Not directly, and not with any STB box or converter. It's pretty obvious that they are NOT going to be supporting OTA on newer models.

[Dajad]

Hate to break it to you, but the Series2 DT does NOT support OTA, PERIOD. Not directly, and not with any STB box or converter. It's pretty obvious that they are NOT going to be supporting OTA on newer models.

OK, let me modify my statement ... EVERY TiVo that supports OTA today will support it after the 2009 conversion. The original poster's concern was, if he buy something that works today, will it work after 2009. My answer is yes.

[Dajad]

Well, would it be too much to have TiVo step forward and either confirm or deny that? As you say, "TiVo never said it will support it. They never said they wouldn't.". That leads to speculation for those of us affected.

How could they and why would they. The final specs have not been settled on so there is no converter product out there today that they can say, today for certainty that they will support. And I'm certain there will be some converter boxes that don't have IR inputs (the cheapo one's) so TiVo can't make a blanket statement that they'll support them all. but there will be converters available that do work with remotes, have IR codes and TiVo will be able to support them.

[Shawn95GT]

A big problem will be handling the '-' or '.'.

Not all of the STBs act the same. 12-1 could want '12', '121' or '12-1'

But doing their own tuner they can solve this problem with consistancy. The S3 handles ATSC quite nice.

It all gets back to if it's worth augmenting an old box or buying a S3/S4/whatever which will have come down in price by then.