Fall 2006 Pricing Changes - FAQ

[TiVoPony]

Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:

TiVo Pricing Q&A
November 10, 2006


Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.

Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
A. While your existing second box is “grandfathered” at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
A. This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
A. We’ve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.

[Gai-jin]

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.

The only good news I see is the quoted above, but the caveat listed concerns me still.

[Einselen]

Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:

TiVo Pricing Q&A
November 10, 2006

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

Thanks Pony, but I am really confused still.

I bought a box from retail maybe three weeks ago and did prepay for 3 years. When the three years are up will I be paying monthly at the fee associated with the three year commitment or will I be bumped up to the fee associated with the one year commitment. My terms said I would go up to then then one year rate but this FAQ says differently. Same with the terms on buying from Tivo or buying from retail. It seems to favor if you buy form Tivo then you get the then rate associated with term length you signed up where retail you get bumped up to the more expensive 1 year rate.

Esentially this is what was going through my mind when I bought my Tivo. Prepay 3 years, at end remember to call in and get $12.95/month for 1 yr then montly at $12.95. Now I am just confused as you can from the paragraph above.

[Einselen]

So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.

The only good news I see is the quoted above, but the caveat listed concerns me still.

Yeah I wonder how that will all work out. Seems as though you need to call in at or near the end of your 1 yr and talk to the CSR or even Sup and say here is what Pony said could happen, will it happen. Then if they give it to you, yay you! If not then you gotta decide what you wanna do in extending contract or what. At that point might as well get a new box too.

[Lazlo123]

Thanks Pony, but I am really confused still.

I bought a box from retail maybe three weeks ago and did prepay for 3 years. When the three years are up will I be paying monthly at the fee associated with the three year commitment or will I be bumped up to the fee associated with the one year commitment. My terms said I would go up to then then one year rate but this FAQ says differently. Same with the terms on buying from Tivo or buying from retail. It seems to favor if you buy form Tivo then you get the then rate associated with term length you signed up where retail you get bumped up to the more expensive 1 year rate.

Esentially this is what was going through my mind when I bought my Tivo. Prepay 3 years, at end remember to call in and get $12.95/month for 1 yr then montly at $12.95. Now I am just confused as you can from the paragraph above.

Yes, if i may add, if Tivo wanted to create alignment in the pricing with Retail, why are the terms different at the end of your commitment for a service only plan or a bundled plan?

[Einselen]

Pony

Also it was not mentioned what happend with the MSD rate after the MSD committment. Assuming form the FAQ you would be paying monlthy the rate you just ended at however again with the terms from the website it seems that only applies to Tivo's bundled packages.

I hope this makes sense, it is hard to explain.

P.S. - Mods, can we make this a sticky please :)

[timckelley]

Bundled vs nonbundled, MSD vs nonMSD, prepay vs monthly, lifetime, lifetime transfers, retail vs from TiVO inc, 1 yr vs 2 yrs vs 3 yrs, ... this is all so confusing. :)

My mother-in-law would definitely be scared off by all this complexity, no matter how good a deal it is.

However, I guess I can see you can't make it totally simple either. You said there's been an interest in prepaying, so that's why you offered that option, and it does sound like there's a discount for prepaying.

[nirisahn]

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.

[Gai-jin]

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.

Local phone service -- once you're in a plan, you're grandfathered into it until you change it. Shouldn't everything work that way? :)

[Einselen]

You said there's been an interest in prepaying, so that's why you offered that option, and it does sound like there's a discount for prepaying.

There is a discount for new customers. Existing customers get better rate with MSD. Could you imagine a prepay MSD rate?

[aindik]

Local phone service -- once you're in a plan, you're grandfathered into it until you change it. Shouldn't everything work that way? :)

Cell phone service is the same. Once your contract expires, you're in month-to-month at the same price you've been paying for the same number of minutes. They have the right to change it on you (that's what month to month means, it's not just freedom for you but freedom for them too), but generally they don't.

[rainwater]

It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.

[Billy66]

Sweet, another increase in price and some serious complication to the process as TiVo struggles to shift the burden of acquisition cost from their marketing department to the consumer. Every other effort to recoup acquisition has failed. I hope this brings the revenue and profits needed. That's the only upside I can see in it.

Billy

[Einselen]

It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.

Why did you buy them bundled? Couldn't you have gotten them cheaper by putting them in your account with MSD from the start? (Sorry off topic, if you want you can reply to me in PM)

[bpurcell]

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

So is this for both retail and direct purchased Tivos? I thought other posts had mentioned that retail Tivos would pay the 1-yr price after the contract, regardless of which year commitment they made. Is that now incorrect?

[timckelley]

It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.

When the year is up, couldn't you sign on for a 3 year MSD contract, and then only pay $6.95 per month per TiVo?

[aridon]

So I have my boxes now and am grandfathered. That means when I upgrade I'll need to take a finger in the ass to keep Tivo? Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box? Make me pay the contract breaking fee?

Sorry but your marketing department is nuts. Have them refer to the first rule of marketing a product. KISS.

[rainwater]

When the year is up, couldn't you sign on for a 3 year MSD contract, and then only pay $6.95 per month per TiVo?

Because I wouldn't commit to that much for a S2 DT. I will be upgrading to an S3, and having to have 2 or 3 commitments for 3 years is ridiculous. When I was told after one year, 2 of my boxes would be $6.95 with a one-year commitment, and now I am being forced to pay more than double that, then I get a little upset.

[rainwater]

Why did you buy them bundled? Couldn't you have gotten them cheaper by putting them in your account with MSD from the start? (Sorry off topic, if you want you can reply to me in PM)

Because they offered good bundled deals that didn't require much upfront costs (no rebate hassles). But now I see it was just a way to screw their customers. If I would of known, I would of paid more upfront and been grandfathered in on the MSD. But now I am just being forced to get rid of the extra boxes.

[jfh3]

It's pretty much what I figured. I have several DT boxes on bundled deals and I am now screwed when the year is up. My MSD rate at the end of the term is now going to be higher ($7 more) than what I was promised when I bought the box. How TiVo thinks this is fair I have no clue. Looks like I will have to get rid of at least 1 of the boxes if not 2 of them.


Not according to the FAQ:

"The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."

If I understand Pony correctly, you would still be eligible for the $6.95 MSD rate on the existing DT boxes that you own.

After reading the plans and the FAQ, this doesn't seem as bad or complicated as many seem to think.

However, I wish there was another way that might be easier to "hook" a new customer that may not know when they first sign up if they will want the service for longer than a year. Maybe if there was some way you could switch to a longer term contract at the reduced rates before the initial 1-year commitment was up.
Then everybody wins. :)

[Einselen]

Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box?


Previosuly the service agreement was tied to the account and not box so if you did 3 yrs perpaid you can trasfer two years and get a S3 if wanted, I doubt that has changed.

[aindik]

Better yet, I take a 3 year committment on a Tivo and 2 years into it Tivo releases a new box that I want and I have to break my contract and resub for 3 more years to get it? Will you allow whats left on the old contract to xfer to the new box? Make me pay the contract breaking fee?

Perhaps this should be added to the FAQ, but the general consensus appears to be that, with a 3 year agreement, all you're agreeing to is to pay monthly service for three years. On any TiVo box, not necessarily on that box. You can replace your box with a new box at any time (but you have to pay full retail for the box).

After the three years is up, you can go month to month at the same monthly rate that another person can get signing a three year deal at that time, and you will apparently pay the current "three year deal" price for as long as you maintain service, but you can cancel at any time. I wonder if THAT month to month plan is transferrable to another box bought at retail.

[Einselen]

However, I wish there was another way that might be easier to "hook" a new customer that may not know when they first sign up if they will want the service for longer than a year.

Tivo does have the 30 day trial. Within that time they can change plans, maybe the trial should be a bit longer? Is 30 days enough to get one hooked and wanting to do more?

Also selling Tivo should be easy. Most users don't see why Tivo is more then their cable DVR and/or don't want the longer contract. Again with Tivo's 30 days you can get them hooked then. If you are selling it to a friend or family member tell them that if they don't like it then you will help them send it back.

[zalusky]

In the next 3 years I see possible dramatic changes in the landscape as the digital transition accelerates. OTA will disappear unless you get some sort converter and then will have more boxes in the loop.

Cable may/may not but most likely will go all digital where they can and that will require the cable box in the way.

I see the S3 or the Cable/Tivo box becoming much more the preferred choice over S2 boxes as time advances. This was not tru in the last 5 years when you could hook to an antenna or plug straight into the cable outlet.

All this takes me to the conclusion that prepaying 3 years ons a S2 is a mistake. Maybe two but not three.

Now if they treated it more like satellite where they simply said you have to subscribe to Tivo for three years and if you switch the hardware big deal, I would feel a lot better.

[Billy66]

After reading the plans and the FAQ, this doesn't seem as bad or complicated as many seem to think.



Imagine the dweebs at Best Buy explaining this to your mother. They will screw it up constantly and consumers will be confused as hell. At that point they aren't even sure what tiVo is let alone being able to understand the service plans. the BB folks don't know crap about either, so that should be quite entertaining.

[rainwater]

Not according to the FAQ:

"The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."


Well, I think that is just a completely false statement because if you read below:


Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.
Those 2 statements do not match up.

[Einselen]

You can replace your box with a new box at any time (but you have to pay full retail for the box).

Asusming the rebate terms will stay the same, which most likely they will. For the S3 currently that is not an issue, but projecting forward a year or two, who knows, not even Tivo at this point of time.

[aindik]

Now if they treated it more like satellite where they simply said you have to subscribe to Tivo for three years and if you switch the hardware big deal, I would feel a lot better.

That's not in this FAQ, but that's the way I've read posts around here.

Of course, you have to buy the new hardware at full retail price.

[ajwees41]

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.

Wrong

The price of the S2DT went up $29.

ajwees41

[jgickler]

Pony, please clearify this situation.

I own 4 tivos, one month 2 month @ 6.95, 2 lifetime, and one DT which I bought a bundled package for 1 year prepaid.

When the 1 year prepaid expires, what will be my rate?

From what I have read elsewhere, it would default to the current rate for the term I agreed to, in this case a 1 year. In the past it was also said that to get the MSD, I would need to commit to at least an additional contract.

So for this unit, are my choices:

1. Pay $19.95 of month to month no commitment

2. Pay $6.95 with a 3 year commitment

3. Pay 13.95 with a 1 year commitment

4. Get a cable company DVR.

The option I was expecting was a Pay $6.95 for a additional 1 year commitment, and the FAQ indicates a $12.95 price which would indicate I would loose the MSD discount if I go month to month with no commitment.

[c3]

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.

[timckelley]

Those 2 statements do not match up.Good catch.

[aindik]

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.

Heh. You would think "What happens if I want to replace my current TiVo DVR with a new TiVo DVR in the middle of my contract" would qualify as a "Frequently Asked Question." It certainly seems like it is.

[rainwater]

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.

I think that has been the case for a while. However, it doesn't matter to me, because I can't justify signing up two of my DT units for another 3 years just to keep the $6.95 rate I was promised when I got my bundled units.

[Einselen]

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.

Wrong

The price of the S2DT went up $29.

ajwees41

That it did, but then also the subscription price went down (not for 1 yr, but still). So if you bought a DT before the price change and did 2 or 3 years you would be paying more then if you buy a DT now and do 2 or 3 years.

[aindik]

I think that has been the case for a while.

It couldn't be longer than since the introduction of bundled pricing. How long ago was that?

Before that the only options were month to month and lifetime. Lifetime was clearly not transferrable to new hardware, and month to month didn't matter - you could switch boxes whenever you wanted because you didn't have a commitment.

[jgickler]

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.

I don't really see how this is an issue. In fact, it almost seems worse.

Lets say I bought a Tivo a year ago, bought it with 1 year prepaid. After 1 year, I start paying 6.95, but no warranty. It dies, I just buy a new one and get rebates, bundled pricing whatever.

Now if I buy that same Tivo today, and after the 1 year I agree to a 3 year contract to get the lowest monthly rate. If it dies after that 1 year commitment, I have to buy a replacement Tivo at full retail price or pay the termination fee, because rebates, bundled pricing etc is only good for new service activations.

[Billy66]

It couldn't be longer than since the introduction of bundled pricing. How long ago was that?

Not that long. Less than a year I think.

[ajwees41]

That it did, but then also the subscription price went down (not for 1 yr, but still). So if you bought a DT before the price change and did 2 or 3 years you would be paying more then if you buy a DT now and do 2 or 3 years.


The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model.


I am just stating that in the S2DT case the cost went up.

What if you can't afford to prepay to get the lower rate?

ajwees41

[rainwater]

It will now cost me $168 more per year under the new terms. Can someone please explain to me how this is cheaper? I would love to know how paying $84 more per year per box is cheaper for me. It must be some new math.

[KoG]

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Pony,

Does this apply to service only plans? If I buy a 3 year bundle, at the end of the 3 years (and assuming the rates haven't changed) I would then start paying $12.95 month to month. I understand that but what if I got a Tivo from a friend/family and bought a 3 year service only plan? At the end of that 3 years, the current terms and conditions seems to say that I will be switched to a $19.95 month to month rate. Am I reading this right? Thanks.

[DrewTivo]

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate on a month to month basis once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.


Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


This sounds quite reasonable and should address those concerns. While I worry about the "reserve the right", can I reasonably expect the price never to increase? No. The only concern it causes me is that 12.95 is not the "current applicable monthly fee for a one year commitment" so that at some point, when they raise all prices, there may not be a $12.95 rate to increase 1 or 2 dollars.

[rainwater]

Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate on a month to month basis once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.


Where are you reading that? It seems to me if you are paying $19.95/month you will continue paying that at a month-to-month basis.

[Gai-jin]

Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate on a month to month basis once your three year commitment is up.

2 issues -- this still doesn't clarify if it's correct for service only subscriptions, since the terms on the site are different for the 2 sub types.

Also, this means that someone on a 1 year 12.95 package can expect the price to go up to 19.95 at the end of that one year. Or just as bad, go to $13.95 if the box then qualifies for MSD.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.

Others have already responded, but I want to "pile on" because I think you're flat out wrong and I want to make that clear.

I signed on with Verizon for cellular service in around 1998 for a $20/month plan. I AM STILL ON THAT PLAN!!! Despite the fact that I got a new phone from them (at a discounted price) a few years ago for making a new 2 year commitment AT THE OLD PRICE and UNDER THE OLD TERMS. They have even ADDED features to my old plan. I now have "Unlimited IN Calling" which didn't exist when I first signed up.

Imagine that, a giant phone company that is far less willing to screw over their existing customers than TiVo is.

[jgickler]

Am I missing something that you all see? This seems better than what could have happened. Three days ago, the concern was that your rate after the commitment was up was the one-year rate (now 19.95). But, if I read this correctly, you can get a 12.95 rate on a month to month basis once your three year commitment is up. That seems like an improvement over earlier this week (granted worse than before) because you don't have to renew the commitment.



This sounds quite reasonable and should address those concerns. While I worry about the "reserve the right", can I reasonably expect the price never to increase? No. The only concern it causes me is that 12.95 is not the "current applicable monthly fee for a one year commitment" so that at some point, when they raise all prices, there may not be a $12.95 rate to increase 1 or 2 dollars.


And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.

[lessd]

TiVo should set up a gift program for people to give a gift of a TiVo and not have to be concerned about what happens three years from now. The giver would pay TiVo $299 and get a TiVo that he could give to someone and they could put it into their account without giving TiVo a credit card. At the end of three years TiVo could send out a letter explaining the options that the owner has.
TiVo is missing a big opportunity if they don't set up some sort of gift program that has a single cost for the giver and no cost or credit card requirement for the receiver as nobody wants to give a gift with strings attached.

That my 2 cents

[Einselen]

And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.

That box as long as credit card info is kept accurate, etc. will only be $6.95/month per Pony's post:

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

The only thing is you still can not cancel that subscription until after the 1 yr due to the committment.

[jgickler]

That box as long as credit card info is kept accurate, etc. will only be $6.95/month per Pony's post:



The only thing is you still can not cancel that subscription until after the 1 yr due to the committment.

That is not what it says. It says if your are currently a month to month subscriber, your price will not change.

I am talking about a prepaid 1 year subscription that would qualify for MSD AFTER the 1 year period. This is not addressed by the FAQ, and where it may be addressed there is contradictary information.

[MediaLivingRoom]

Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:

TiVo Pricing Q&A
November 10, 2006


Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.

Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
A. While your existing second box is “grandfathered” at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
A. This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
A. We’ve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.


I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram. :)

[timckelley]

I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram. :)

I personally think a Visio diagram is a very nice idea. I think I would be a lot less confused if we had one. And people keep bringing up special situations they think aren't addressed, and those could easily be added to Visio. Plus it should be easy enough to prevent contradictions within Visio.

[c3]

I think we need a spreadsheet here for all the historical plans and new plans. It's complicated for the long time users. Maybe a Visio diagram. :)

I think we need to avoiding quoting long messages.

[rodalpho]

They've already got us in their pocket, heck we're posting on TCF, we're the hardcore enthusiasts. It's interesting how they try to spin this as a good thing for consumers by making the new pricing plan as confusing as possible. Personally, I don't feel purposefully confusing your customers is good or ethical marketing, but I guess we'll see if this flies.

Cellphones certainly get away with it. But of course EVERYBODY hates their cellphone provider.

[Shawn95GT]

Pony,

You addressed earlier that those you have done the VIP Lifetime transfer would be eligible for the $6.95 MSD rate after the 1yr pre-pay.

This is well and good for the S3 I already own.

What if I was to by another via the TCF store today (and did the VIP lifetime xfer)? Would the same apply to the S2 that would be getting the 1yr pre-paid?

Thanks,

[Einselen]

That is not what it says. It says if your are currently a month to month subscriber, your price will not change.

I am talking about a prepaid 1 year subscription that would qualify for MSD AFTER the 1 year period. This is not addressed by the FAQ, and where it may be addressed there is contradictary information.

We might be talking about different things here.

I am talking about say a month ago I got another Tivo and added it to my account at $6.95/month. At that time I had to do a one year committment with it. After one year my rate on that box will still be $6.95/month.

Now relooking at your post you stated one year prepay MSD. Well there is no such thing as one year prepaid MSD so I am guessing you prepaid for a box for 1 yr and now looking what will happen with that box. If this is the case then correct it is not covered by the FAQ.

[DrewTivo]

Where are you reading that? It seems to me if you are paying $19.95/month you will continue paying that at a month-to-month basis.

I got it from this:

if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time.

I probably wasn't clear in my post--I meant that you get the $12.95 rate--on a month to month basis--after your three-year commitment. That is better than having to enter into another three year committment to keep the lowest rate. Instead, you can go month-to-month at that point.

Believe me, I much preferred the old plans. All I was pointing out is that it's not quite as bad in this regard as it originally appeared.

[DrewTivo]

And this does not address MSD. If I have a 1 year prepaid MSD, after the 1 year is the rate still $12.95. Is it $13.95 because that is the 1 year commitment plan price. Or is it $6.95 that I was planning on when I bought the machine.

This strikes me as an odd case. It means you overpaid for the MSD machine on the prepay, because you were paying as if there were no MSD. Presumably, however, most people didn't do that, and instead applied the prepaid to the new machine, and put and old one, with no commitment, on MSD at $6.95, and will continue to get that price.

Also, this means that someone on a 1 year 12.95 package can expect the price to go up to 19.95 at the end of that one year.

Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?

[MediaLivingRoom]

TiVo management is not intouch with its client base, like TiVoPony and alike... I know TiVoPony has a new position with in TiVo, but it looks like TiVo Management is killing the spirit of the front line people to interact with this community. TiVoPony and others were always there for its users. Now it's sad that TiVo management messed with a good thing.

[Gai-jin]

Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?

You can still today buy a 1 year 12.95/mo commitment with refurb hardware from tivo's website.

[nirisahn]

Others have already responded, but I want to "pile on" because I think you're flat out wrong and I want to make that clear.

I signed on with Verizon for cellular service in around 1998 for a $20/month plan. I AM STILL ON THAT PLAN!!! Despite the fact that I got a new phone from them (at a discounted price) a few years ago for making a new 2 year commitment AT THE OLD PRICE and UNDER THE OLD TERMS. They have even ADDED features to my old plan. I now have "Unlimited IN Calling" which didn't exist when I first signed up.

Imagine that, a giant phone company that is far less willing to screw over their existing customers than TiVo is.


Are you paying the same for cable or satellite (whichever you have) as you did 8 years ago? Probably not. Has your landline bill stayed the same? Mine hasn't. Even though I'm mistaken about cell phones, I stand by my original premise. Prices go up. That's life. If you don't like the price, don't buy the service. The supplier will eventually get the message. With more alternatives to Tivo coming down the pike every day, they're either going to find a way to stay competitive, or they're going to go out of business. The market will decide. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.

[E94Allen]

I am wondering if someone choose 1 yrs $19.95 and few months later relized cannot afford it anymore and want to switch to 2 years or 3 years instead?

[MediaLivingRoom]

I am wondering if someone choose 1 yrs $19.95 and few months later relized cannot afford it anymore and want to switch to 2 years or 3 years instead?


Maybe a new contract with a new start date.

[Gai-jin]

Are you paying the same for cable or satellite (whichever you have) as you did 8 years ago? Probably not. Has your landline bill stayed the same? Mine hasn't. Even though I'm mistaken about cell phones, I stand by my original premise. Prices go up. That's life. If you don't like the price, don't buy the service. The supplier will eventually get the message. With more alternatives to Tivo coming down the pike every day, they're either going to find a way to stay competitive, or they're going to go out of business. The market will decide. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.

Does your cable bill generally go up 54% (effectively) overnight?

[rainwater]

I probably wasn't clear in my post--I meant that you get the $12.95 rate--on a month to month basis--after your three-year commitment.


Yeah, but people that paid much more on 1 and 2 year commitments shouldn't be penalized for it by having to keep a much higher rate after the contract is over.

[Gai-jin]

Yeah, but people that paid much more on 1 and 2 year commitments shouldn't be penalized for it by having to keep a much higher rate after the contract is over.

Agreed. At the end of your contract is where the ripoff begins. In that case, anyway.

[jeffk]

Let me first begin by saying I have been in LOVE with my tivo for about 4 years, and have recommended tivo to many of my friends. I cannot do this any more, based soley on the pricing of service. It was always a hard sell, on the service, but with it going up so dramatically [without a multi year commitment], I am hearing from all my friends with tivo, and cannot blame them, that this is ridiculous, and how can tivo survive with these new prices. Now, on to the multi year discounts, yes, discounts are ok, but raising the prices so you can offer discounts is not, everyone already hates contracts, and this is what you have introduced. I don't understand why you introduced contracts, tivo loyalty is high, there is very little churn, and well contracts, and lock ins are always meant to keep people, lock them in so they won't leave, this is not needed here, so in reality the price is 19.95 a month, because most people will not commit for 3 years up front.

Your logic is also flawed for this, you say it was done to get the boxes cheaper to the customer, and state the example of one year of service, plus the box being cheaper now, while this may be true for series 2 purchases, its is entirely bad news for series 3 purchases. I myself wanted to purchase a series 3, and a coworker was all about purchasing a series 3 as well, but once he saw the new plans, he says there is noway he is buyign a series 3, it's just way too much upfront cost, and I agree. I myself am doubting the purchase of a series 3 currently all because of these price changes.

I love you tivo, and couldn't live without my tivo, but with these pricing changes, I might have to look elsewhere for a HD DVR. While I personally can [not everyone has the luxury], transfer my lifetime to a series 3 machine, I just think with these new pricing schemes tivo is in for a world of hurt, and trouble, and question if $500 for lifetime is really worht it, because I don't see people goign for tivo with such a high out of pocket cost. The sole reason many people i know havn't gotten tivo is because of the service fee, and now it is increased. It seems with hdtv dvr's being thrown at consumers through cable companies [though they REALLY SUCK], for people withotu an experience with tivo, its hard to justify the 19.95 a month or to commit for 3 years.

Just my opinion. I still love tivo, and hope I am wrong. But I really am on the fence about the series 3 now, and know a few peopel alone at work who have changed their mind 100% about getting a tivo3 now [faithful tivo subscribers too].

Thanks,

Jeff

[ChuckyBox]

After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.

(Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)

[samo]

After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.

(Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)
I'm glad I got rid of my TiVos 6 months ago, so I can see very clear what was explained in a FAQ.:) Basically the new model gives you free or near free hardware in exchange for a contract. Contracts are cheaper if duration is longer. After your contract expires you are free to get any kind of promo deal for a new hardware or if you want to pay and get new hardware during a contract term you can do it too. Very similar to cell phone model. Don't see anything wrong with that. The only way it hurts old customers is that it somewhat devaluated value of the hardware (I have 2 TiVos sitting in a closet that I was going to give away, but now I'll just put them at a curb). Hope this new model works for TiVo because everything else they tried so far didn't.

[Gai-jin]

After reading this thread, I believe I have to get rid of my TiVos. Somehow, owning a TiVo turns a person into a paranoid moron who is incapable of reading a two hundred word explanation without either completely misunderstanding it and/or projecting onto it all the wrongs that have ever been perpetrated against him.

(Wait. What if TiVo doesn't turn one into a paranoid moron -- what if paranoid morons are drawn to TiVo? Damn.)

Chucky, I understand you are a tivo fan, and blinded by your enthusiasm for a great product. I can't hold your 'fanboi' status against you, we all are, or we wouldn't be here on forums dedicated to the product. However, it seems you're a little more blind than the rest of us.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you're one of the only people defending tivo, among a board full of tivo 'fanboi's' ? Perhaps it's not everyone else who's wrong?

[xdroccax]

This strikes me as an odd case. It means you overpaid for the MSD machine on the prepay, because you were paying as if there were no MSD. Presumably, however, most people didn't do that, and instead applied the prepaid to the new machine, and put and old one, with no commitment, on MSD at $6.95, and will continue to get that price.


This is not an odd case. I'm in the same situation and if I've read correctly, rainwater's in the same boat. I have a S2 ST Lifetime, and the MAIN reason I bought the 1yr prepay S2 DT bundle was because it was cheaper then paying full price for the DT and get the MSD $6.95 price right away. I was also told at the time of purchase AND activation that once the 1yr prepay was up, I COULD begin the $6.95 MSD pricing because my ST Lifetime qualified the DT.



Why aren't such people covered by the FAQ explaining that anyone with a one-year commitment package from before Nov. 4, 2006, will continue at the 12.95 rate?

I think your statement hit it on the nail for a lot of folks.

On a side note, I believe FAQ address NEW customers very clearly. It however does not address those with existing and prepay bundles.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Let me first begin by saying I have been in LOVE with my tivo for about 4 years, and have recommended tivo to many of my friends. I cannot do this any more, based soley on the pricing of service. It was always a hard sell, on the service, but with it going up so dramatically [without a multi year commitment], I am hearing from all my friends with tivo, and cannot blame them, that this is ridiculous, and how can tivo survive with these new prices.

The above has been said before, but it's worth repeating. Over and over and over and over and over until TiVo starts to understand how badly they've screwed up. Or until they go down the drain. Whichever comes first.

I also have been an evangelist in the past, and have convinced quite a few people to sign up. But now I don't want to understand the subtleties of the plans, I don't want to understand the subtleties of the pricing. I don't want to understand the long term implications of the various time durations of commitment. I don't want to understand the value proposition (or lack thereof).

I'm sure I COULD understand it if I wanted to, but I DON'T WANT TO. It's too complicated. As if TiVo the DVR wasn't complicated enough in and of itself (to the average TV viewer).

Fortunately I have 4 active DirecTiVos and so am mostly unaffected by this debacle. I was hoping to buy an S3 just for HD, but that's a totally different debacle.

[mattack]

As if TiVo the DVR wasn't complicated enough in and of itself (to the average TV viewer).

Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?

Don't compare it to a VCR -- I can _almost_ see how someone would consider one of those complicated.

But *especially* if someone is willing to live with the Tivo mindset (set season pass, be happy with shows being deleted when it gets full), it couldn't be much simpler... and the elegant/simple UI is exactly what a lot of us like about it.

(Don't get me wrong -- I'd LOVE a lot more _optional_ tweakability, and would pay for it. But because I can't get that, that's one reason I got a non-Tivo hard drive/DVD-recorder to use ALONG with my Tivos, which provides a lot of the functionality that's missing.. [but also is not as reliable])

[ChuckyBox]

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you're one of the only people defending tivo, among a board full of tivo 'fanboi's' ? Perhaps it's not everyone else who's wrong?
Actually, given the number of people who participate in these fora, I take the lack of general outrage as a sign that most people get it and realize that the changes are no big deal and don't even affect most of us. Compared to the outrage over the price of the S3 and all the prognostications of TiVo doom over that (despite the fact that by all appearances the S3 continues to sell well), this is positively mild. There are a few people who seem to have lost the ability to take in new information and apply it, but that is, I guess, to be expected any time anything changes.

But let's take a stroll down memory lane, shall we?


Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.


Which some clever person quoted and then responded:


So, it's pretty much just as bad as we had all been speculating.

Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?

Then there was this:


Not according to the FAQ:

"The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. .... New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased."

To which rainwater responded:

Well, I think that is just a completely false statement because if you read below:


Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.


Those 2 statements do not match up.

No, they don't. Because one is about existing customers with existing hardware, a group of which rainwater is a member, and the second applies to new purchases under the new plan, a group of which rainwater is not yet a member.

I could go on, but there is gin, a nice Italian dinner with wine, and a TiVo with some unwatched meerkats all waiting for me at home.

[ChuckyBox]

Hope this new model works for TiVo because everything else they tried so far didn't.
I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that I've agreed with two of your posts recently. Are you setting me up? Is the TiVo-paranoia starting to affect me?

But, yes, I think this is TiVo's last, best hope to drive standalone subscriptions. They've got new hardware, they've got distribution, they've got new marketing in place, it is the holiday season -- if they can't make this work, it may just not be possible to push SA subs beyond 2 million or so.

Now, what was I saying about that gin...

[rainwater]

Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?


Actually, just one box alone is going to cost me $84 more per year now. I have several TiVos on the $19.95 bundle deal because I was told that once it was over I could switch them to $12.95 and $6.95/month respectively. Now that is not the case. In order to get $12.95/month on just one of the boxes I have to now commit to 3 years. That is ridiculous that the only way to stay on a $12.95 plan is to have already been on one before. So buy paying them more per month I am being told I have to continue paying that because I didn't buy the boxes at retail. Thats a great way to screw your customers by making promises that they aren't going to keep according to this faq.

[Gai-jin]

Oh, the humanity! People who before this plan was put in place would have had to pay $12.95/month on a month to month basis are now going to have to pay, um, er, $12.95/month on a month to month basis... Well, I'm sure there's something terrible about that. I mean, the price didn't go down, did it?

Of course, had you been clever enough to actually read my post quoting pony, you would have noted the quoted portion was the only portion I did not find objecitonable. But then, you'd actually have to read the post to get that.

[Bernie33]

I have a Series 2 DT. Have a new HDTV. So I can now buy a S3DT for $800 + $12.95/mo with a three year, prepaid commitment. Or I can use the dual tuner HD DVR from the cable company for $9.95/month with no commitment, and no upfront charges, nothing to buy and they service the unit. All this before the telephone company is in a position to announce their competitive offering in this area yet so we don't know know how that will impact prices.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Tivo user interface is much, much nicer. But from a cost comparison point of view, there is no comparison. If I buy a S3DT I start out at least $800 behind and get further behind every single month for ever.

What is wrong with this picture? :confused:

[MungoJerrie]

Actually, just one box alone is going to cost me $84 more per year now. I have several TiVos on the $19.95 bundle deal because I was told that once it was over I could switch them to $12.95 and $6.95/month respectively. Now that is not the case. In order to get $12.95/month on just one of the boxes I have to now commit to 3 years. That is ridiculous that the only way to stay on a $12.95 plan is to have already been on one before. So buy paying them more per month I am being told I have to continue paying that because I didn't buy the boxes at retail. Thats a great way to screw your customers by making promises that they aren't going to keep according to this faq.You are exactly right about that. Before these price changes, the common understanding was that when your 12-month commitment expired, you could go to $12.95/mo. So by "reserving their right to change price/terms without prior notice" they've pulled that rug out from under everyone. I can understand tivo's need to push longer commitments by enticing with lower monthly rates, but MSD has always been a flat $6.95/mo and at that rate I was willing to put a tivo in nearly every room of my house. By changing MSD to a $6 "discount" from your current monthly rate, that is where they have made owning more tivos less attractive and that is a big mistake...because frankly I think MRV is tivo's killer app.

[c3]

What is wrong with this picture? :confused:

Having to pay Comcast $70/month for their DVR is what's wrong.

[Gai-jin]

Having to pay Comcast $70/month for their DVR is what's wrong.

Wow, I've never heard of a cable company charging as much as tivo's monthly fee. You sure you didn't piss somebody off at comcast? :)

[Phantom Gremlin]

Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?
Sorry. I can see how my remark was misleading.

TiVo is easy to use. My young children have no problems scrolling to recorded programs they want to view. They have no problems setting season passes. Etc.

TiVo is complicated to explain to Joe Sixpack, the average adult TV viewer, whose only frame of reference is the VCR.

Even when most adults see TiVo demonstrated they still don't understand the advantages. They have to use it for a while before they "grok" it. I've been one of many people that have criticized TiVo's poor marketing. But, in their defense, it's probably just a very tough product to market well. Word of mouth is probably one of the most effective ways.

Now add the pricing lunacy on top of that and things are very complicated indeed.

[samo]

I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that I've agreed with two of your posts recently. Are you setting me up? Is the TiVo-paranoia starting to affect me?

Happens to the best of us. I'm finding your latest posts more balanced and reasonable too. :) But seriously, I don't understand these "I love TiVo but do not want to commit for 3 years posts". I understand people who are "fanboys" or "tivangelists" (I was one myself years ago). I understand people who find alternative DVRs to be of better value. I understand people who say that S3 is way overpriced compare to competitions. But for a life of me I don't understand why people who honestly believe that TiVo has the best DVR available are so ticked off by minor price and/or commitment increase. When my favorite channel went from Dish to DirecTV I had to sub to a new provider, get new hardware and extra sub cost just to get the same programming that I had before. Did I like it? Of course not. But the bottom line was - I wanted this programming and it is worth it to me to have my house look like NASA center with all these satellite antennas (I had to keep Dish because my second favorite channel is still on Dish only). I don't get it - either you believe that TiVo is the best or you don't. If you do, then pay for it. If you don't, then move on to somebody else. There are plenty of cheaper and (in my opinion) better alternatives. TiVo has been losing money and market share for 7 years now. They can't do it forever. What good it would do to you TiVo "lovers" if they go out of business? And if you are open minded and didn't pledge allegiance to TiVo, why do you care?

[Einselen]

Even when most adults see TiVo demonstrated they still don't understand the advantages. They have to use it for a while before they "grok" it. I've been one of many people that have criticized TiVo's poor marketing. But, in their defense, it's probably just a very tough product to market well. Word of mouth is probably one of the most effective ways.


Way back in the day wasn't TiVo in Best Buy as an in store display? I am sure Best Buy employees were mistrained and confused people on it so explains why no more, or am I just thinking of some other DVR product?

[tbeckner]

What is wrong with this picture? :confused:Everything!

I was going to reactivate my SVR-2000 and buy a DT, but when I went to reactivate a few days ago I was shocked. The SVR-2000 will not be reactivated, but used as a digitial VCR like it has been since 2003 when I bought my first of five DirecTiVos; and of course I will not purchase the DT.

Boy, am I glad that I have five DirecTiVos all hacked for MRV, download/uploads, and longer Live TV buffers. The charges for four of those DirecTiVos from DirecTV are lower than the cost of just one SA TiVo with a one year contract.

All I can say is that the TiVo folks are out of their minds. :down: :down:

[kido]

Please note.

If you are already paying for digital cable, then, yes, the cable dvr is an excellent deal. Much cheaper than any of TiVo's plans (except the 3 year pre pay bundle). Please, immediately call your cable company and sign up as fast as possible.

Everyone else who is subscribed to only standard cable and are happy with your current lineup and don't need or want HDTV, a S2 TiVo will save you money if the difference in price between your current package and digital cable plus dvr rental is greater than $19.95 per month.

Real world example for SDTV via Comcast Chicago

comcast least expensive package for DVR service
Digital Classic $59.48
DVR $9.99
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$69.47 per month


comcast most expensive package for TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
Worst possible deal from TIVO (S2DT 1 yr bundle) $19.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$69.44 per month


comcast least expensive package for TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
Best deal from TIVO (3 yr pre pay) $8.31
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$57.80 per month


Look at that. Worst case scenario and TiVo's cheaper by 3 cents per month. :) If I go for the 3 year pre-pay option, I pay $57.80 per month, a savings of $11.67 per month or $420.12 over 3 years. Plus, I own the S2DT TiVo.


Let's look at HDTV.

If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.

A $799 S3 allows you to watch these HDTV digital signals; however, to map those HDTV digital stations to their analog equivalents, you need a couple of CableCards from your cable company, which you can lease for around $1.50 per month.


Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago

comcast least expensive package for HD DVR service
Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
HDTV $5.00
DVR $9.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$74.47 per month


comcast least expensive package with TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
2 cable cards $1.50
best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$59.30 per month


So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.

Wait, there's more.

Let's say I only care about the major networks and I live in an area which receives OTA signals. I can use the tuners on the S3 plus an antenna to get local channels in HDTV for $8.31 per month, which saves $66.16 per month over cable DVR, which makes the break even point just over 1 year.


So, cable dvr is $70 per month at a minimum with digital cable. If you have channels you want that are only available on digital cable, then the cable company has pretty made up your mind for you. Just be sure you really need digital cable to get the channels you are interested in.

If you only want access to standard cable, a S2 is a much better deal.

Interested in HDTV for local channels and other popular cable stations? A S3 will pay for itself over digital cable dvr in about 4 years, probably less.

Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.

Oh, and the savings with TiVo only increase with multiple DVRs.

[larrs]

[QUOTE=kido]

Let's look at HDTV.

If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.

QUOTE]

Wrong, oh wrong.

1. In almost all cases, the only HDTV you can get by only getting basic cable is the local channels. ESPN, TNT, etc. are always scrambled.

2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable (the above channels are still scrambled even if the would).

3. And lastly, even if you skip the cable cards and opt to just get the locals in HD, Tivo cannot map them for you without #2 because the Tvio doesn't know what frequency the cable company has them on in the system (and many cable companies move them around).

[larrs]

I have a Series 2 DT. Have a new HDTV. So I can now buy a S3DT for $800 + $12.95/mo with a three year, prepaid commitment. Or I can use the dual tuner HD DVR from the cable company for $9.95/month with no commitment, and no upfront charges, nothing to buy and they service the unit. All this before the telephone company is in a position to announce their competitive offering in this area yet so we don't know know how that will impact prices.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Tivo user interface is much, much nicer. But from a cost comparison point of view, there is no comparison. If I buy a S3DT I start out at least $800 behind and get further behind every single month for ever.

What is wrong with this picture? :confused:

It appears to me that it is at least in a way. It makes getting the Tivo service via your cable company's box simple, and cheaper.

[c3]

2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable.

Comcast does, two for $1.50 in my area.

[Einselen]

I was thinking that maybe should have an option to disable TTG and that would help you save monthly on your boxes. This was a feature that Tivo was thinking about charging for. The thing is this would have to be across every Tivo on the account and I am not sure if it would or would not include MRV.

Personally that is what really sold me on Tivo. Right now I have Tivo at school which has a movie channel and in the past few weeks I have had the Tivo I have recorded, transfered and burned a number of movies. Also I can not count the number of movies on TV I have done the same. Movies on TV isn't all that great, but strip out the commercials and you got yourself a nice DVD, something I would easily pay a few bucks to own. I also have burned to DVD a few shows and specials like David Blaine, etc.

I wouldn't mind having TTG as an option, as long as it is something I don't have to pay for and already have it included and it would just be a savings. Thoughts, comments?

[c3]

Another cost comparison example. I've had Comcast limited basic for the past 13 years. Not interested in other channels, but I do want HD.

Comcast DVR: $70/month ($15 limited basic, $35 expanded basic, $10 digital classic, $10 DVR)

with TiVo S3: $16.50/month ($15 limited basic, $1.50 CableCards)

I can take the difference of $53.50/month to spend on TiVo. S3 from TCS $680 + S1 lifetime from eBay $300 + VIP transfer $199 = $1179. $1179 / $53.50 = 22 months. Let's just say two years. At the end of two years, I have a S3 with lifetime worth many hundreds of dollars.

If I do want to have all of the available non-premium HD channels, I can add $10 for digital classic. $1179 / $43.50 = 27 months. I had this for a few weeks after getting the S3, but I canceled it because I spent too much time watching re-runs on TNTHD.

[Einselen]

For cost comparison I wanted a DVR for my dorm room. For me to get it through the cable company I would have to upgrade my cable at $12/month (was $7 last year) to digital which would get me the music stations and 7 additional channels, all of which I have little use for and then $6/month for the DVR. That is $18/month this year or last year would have been $13/month.

I got a great deal on my Tivo, $50 + tax OTD, $150 Tivo MIR, $30 CompUSA Rebate and then 3 years of service for $299. That comes out to about $179 or $4.97/month. I know this was rare and odd for the deal, but still was my situation. Even without the great deal still better to go with Tivo I believe even with the new pricing plans. Why? You get waht you pay for. Enough said on that for now.

Now in 7 months or so I will be out working etc. I am guessing I will have basic basic cable. The most basic I can get. If I did that with cable company I would have no DVR. Also because I own the Tivo box I can modify it and upgrade the drive. So my plan is hopefully take some holiday money, buy a larger drive, bake and replace and in the Spring Semester start collecting TV shows. That way even with basic basic cable I will have things I will want to watch. I will also be able to if I want not have cable for a little bit if start up costs for apt, etc. is too much.

Another great thing about Tivo is if you move, the box comes with you. Can't say that about your cable DVR (unless you are mocing within the service area). So all these shows I am collecting on my Tivo, even if I don't upgrade, I will still be able to watch without losing. Meaning when I do move and wait for the cable guy to show up and activate my cable at least I will still have TV. Ahh that is nice. Might confuse the cable guy at first too, lol.

I am not agreeing with the new pricing. Heck we all hate uncertainty and to get the rates we could have last week we have to commit to 3 years which sucks, but good news is the service is tied to the account. Sure you will probably lose the rebate option (if there is one) but for me I won't be getting HD anytime soon and when I do I don't think I will care too much about $150 rebate (I could be wrong) for the S3. The new pricing plan does hurt my wallet some, but I think because I have seen what Tivo can do and what other DVRs can (or mostly can not) I think the extra cost and/or commitment is worth it.

Love it or hate it if you are a huge Tivo fan this won't make you dump all your Tivos, you may cut back, but not by much. Just my 2.5 cents.

[Einselen]

I also think Tivo enthusist (like most on this forum) will reject the price change more then the average consumer. Most consumers don't know the term, the ins and outs, the pricing, etc. like those here. Sure they will notice a change, but because they don't know all that there was before they won't be as upset. Also besides the one little discrepency with the terms buying online from Tivo and buying from retail now match up. It is a whole lot confusing for the consumers to purchase. Again the new plan also is preventing people from going to get a new box and service every year for $83.40. I wonder how much that was costing Tivo. Overall I trust Tivo and the bean counters looked at all the numbers and did all the lovely business calculations I am learning and trying to remember and found out the Expected Value of these new plans are higher then the Expected Value of the old plans. Sure Tivo has not done well at all with making money, but look at Amazon. Also Tivo has not failed yet and Tivo is still setting themselves apart from competators (MRV, TTG, TivoCast, HME, etc.). If Tivo had just kept the S1 as the main line of product they would have been sunk years ago, but they are being inventive and as long as they do that then surviving should not be too tough.

[DCIFRTHS]

TiVoPony, you need to explain that the commitment is for the service, not any specific hardware. People don't believe us "civilians" when we say it.

Would you please tell me how you know this? Do you have a link to the official policy on TiVo's site?

[c3]

Would you please tell me how you know this? Do you have a link to the official policy on TiVo's site?

TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723

Q. Can I transfer an existing monthly service-only contract or bundled service contract to new hardware? Suppose I get a box from retail or my cousin or eBay and want to switch service. Or I buy a shiny new Series3?

A. Yes. We call this a "Service Number Change" in Manage My Account and you can handle this transaction yourself at any time by going to http://www.tivo.com/manage/

This option is available today on monthly service-only contracts, and will still be available for all plans (except Product Lifetime) once the new pricing options go into effect.

Note that the old unit will no longer have service, which means it probably will have limited or no function.

Note also that the balance of your service commitment is unchanged, and transfers to the new hardware as well.

Suppose, for example, you purchase a bundled service package with an 80-hour Series2 DVR and a three year commitment at $16.95 per month. After 17 months you want to switch your service to a new Series3. You can do that. You'll purchase the new Series3 at retail, use Manage My Account to change your TiVo Service Number on your contract, and now your Series3 is activated at $16.95 per month, with 19 months left on your service commitment. Your Series2 unit will no longer have service.

Note that your Series3 unit would probably NOT be eligible for any rebate (if applicable), since our rebates typically require a new service activation.

[DCIFRTHS]

TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723 ...

Cool. I didn't read in any of Pony's posts where he said this is changing, so hopefully it remains in effect.

I don't have a problem committing for a year. It's a two year commitment that I have trouble with, but I might go for it as long as I can swap out the box. I like to upgrade my hardware...frequently :)

[Bill McNeal]

What is unfortunate is that Pony justified monthly fee increases by lowering up-front costs for the box, however this does not apply to S3 buyers. We appear to be most adversely impacted by this change.

[Bill McNeal]

Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago

comcast least expensive package for HD DVR service
Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
HDTV $5.00
DVR $9.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$74.47 per month


comcast least expensive package with TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
2 cable cards $1.50
best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$59.30 per month


So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.


Real world examples like this are very helpful. Can we use Comcast's standard cable to receive HDTV for both Comcast's DVR and TiVo? That would reduce the monthly savings by $10 for Comcast customers.

[bidger]

2. Also, no cable company will give you a cable card without subscribing to digital cable.

Comcast does, two for $1.50 in my area.

Time-Warner doesn't.

[Dajad]

Since TiVo doesn't ship products to Canada but still supports and accepts subscriptions from Canada, if we purchase a TiVo from a third party such as Weaknees, does Tivo recover the costs or give us some kind of rebate to get the same net net TiVo box prices as U.S. customers? Or do we still have to pay the same old unit costs and the new higher subscription rates?

...Dale

[kido]

What is unfortunate is that Pony justified monthly fee increases by lowering up-front costs for the box, however this does not apply to S3 buyers. We appear to be most adversely impacted by this change.

but wouldn't S3 owners be the most likely to commit to a 3 year plan? Who would buy an S3 to only use for a year or two?

[PhillyGuy]

Let's look at HDTV.

If your were told by your cable company that you need digital cable to view HDTV, please understand that you very likely receive HDTV digital signals along with your normal analog signals with the standard cable service. This usually includes your local stations plus stations like ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, FOODTVHD MTVHD, etc. Your service may, of course, vary, but this is generally what is available.

A $799 S3 allows you to watch these HDTV digital signals; however, to map those HDTV digital stations to their analog equivalents, you need a couple of CableCards from your cable company, which you can lease for around $1.50 per month.


Real world example for HDTV via Comcast Chicago

comcast least expensive package for HD DVR service
Digital Classic (least expensive digital option) $59.48
HDTV $5.00
DVR $9.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$74.47 per month


comcast least expensive package with TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
2 cable cards $1.50
best possible deal from TIVO (3 year pp service) $8.31
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$59.30 per month


So you save $15.17 per month, but you have to buy a $799 box from TiVo, which makes the break even point at 4.3 years. The break even point is even closer if you bought your S3 at a discount. Oh, and again I own an S3.

Wait, there's more.

Let's say I only care about the major networks and I live in an area which receives OTA signals. I can use the tuners on the S3 plus an antenna to get local channels in HDTV for $8.31 per month, which saves $66.16 per month over cable DVR, which makes the break even point just over 1 year.


So, cable dvr is $70 per month at a minimum with digital cable. If you have channels you want that are only available on digital cable, then the cable company has pretty made up your mind for you. Just be sure you really need digital cable to get the channels you are interested in.

If you only want access to standard cable, a S2 is a much better deal.

Interested in HDTV for local channels and other popular cable stations? A S3 will pay for itself over digital cable dvr in about 4 years, probably less.

Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.

Oh, and the savings with TiVo only increase with multiple DVRs.

I think you are stretching it a little bit. Your example may be true for Comcast Chicago, but in a majority of places, you do not get any digital channels (other than local stations) with a standard analog package. If you want to receive ESPN-HD or any of the premium digital channels, you have to upgrade to the digital package and some times they even charge you an HDTV fee. Some places don't even give out cable cards if you have a standard package. Then you can't use Tivo guide data for the HD channels. Also picture quality tends to be worse as well with analog service.

[PhillyGuy]

Real world examples like this are very helpful. Can we use Comcast's standard cable to receive HDTV for both Comcast's DVR and TiVo? That would reduce the monthly savings by $10 for Comcast customers.

Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.

[Gai-jin]

Please note.

If you are already paying for digital cable, then, yes, the cable dvr is an excellent deal. Much cheaper than any of TiVo's plans (except the 3 year pre pay bundle). Please, immediately call your cable company and sign up as fast as possible.
<snip>
Just want to watch Lost and Desperate Housewives in HDTV and have access to OTA signals? TiVo S3 cannot be beat.


Yeah, um, I'm going to have to disagree.

With my local cable co -- Basic cable $40 ish a month. Digital box and DVR, with Starz & Encore, plus right now HBO free for a year, $15. Total $55. Want HD? Add another $5. $60 total

With S2 Tivo -- $40 for cable, $20 for Tivo. long term contract required. No premium channels included. $60 total

With S3 Tivo -- $40 for cable. $2 for cable card. $2 for second cable card. $20 for tivo. Total $64. Then add another $800 for equipment, & the required long term contract. Let's say a tivo has an average lifespan of 4 years. $800/48=16.66/mo. Total cost $80.66

Which looks like the better deal?

[Gai-jin]

minor price and/or commitment increase.

Let's see, take your pick between a 54% price increase, effectively overnight, or a 200% increase in commitment length. Which do you consider minor? Would you mind if your phone, cable, electric, rent, car payment, and other bills went up 54% overnight?

Personally, I won't sign a 3 year commitment to anything. I do 1 year at most with a cell phone provider. I sign a year lease when I move into an apartment. No contract required for my cable, internet, home phone, or most anything else.

Pick any other company for this example. You've been a customer for 4 or more years. You spend 2-3 times the minimum for their services. You pay your bill on the same day every month. You stop in and talk to them one day (maybe to add more service...), and they say "We don't trust you to stay with us, so we want you to sign a contract that you'll continue to be our customer and pay on time for the next 3 years, or else we're going to raise your price 54%."

What would you do?

[jtlytle]

I was hoping they will bring back Lifetime service plan!

[dianebrat]

Are you serious? Are there people who think that a Tivo is complicated?


I was stunned to find one of those people was my mom...

I gave it to her with lifetime 2 years ago for Mothers Day.
We spent 1.5 years with her trying to get used to it, in the end she said "take it away"

She now has a Motorola DVR from the cable company and it seems to work for her.
In a year of talking to her it became more and more clear that the added features annoyed her, she wanted it to work like a VCR with clear rules, and simple short menus to do things.

We had to turn off suggestions because she said "they get in the way, I don't want them"

She wanted "always record Stargate SG-1, repeat or new" then complained when it recorded the 9 bazillion showings a week.

So yup.. there are some folks that Tivo isn't right for.

Diane

[Bill McNeal]

Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.

Thanks for the info. Comcast has a $5/month HDTV STB for encrypted HD channels which kido included in his S3 example. Can an S3 with cableCARDs receive encrypted HD channels, eliminating the need for the HDTV STB?

[Bill McNeal]

but wouldn't S3 owners be the most likely to commit to a 3 year plan? Who would buy an S3 to only use for a year or two?

For S3 owners, the pricing changes do result in a longer commitment to get the same pricing as before. It is always nice to have the flexibility as needed.

If TiVo is subsidizing the cost of the boxes through higher monthly service fees/longer contracts, S3 buyers shouldn't be left out in the cold.

[rainwater]

The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios.

Like people who bought the bundle deal who were told it would qualify for MSD are now going to be charged more than double the $6.95 price that was promised us? I would say that is a large number of people considering that is how TiVo has been pushing the bundled deals for the last year. Service just for two of my bundled boxes alone is going to cost me $168 more per year. I'm sorry, but I feel as though I have been suckered by TiVo on this one.

[bmgoodman]

comcast most expensive package for TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
Worst possible deal from TIVO (S2DT 1 yr bundle) $19.95
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$69.44 per month


comcast least expensive package for TiVo
Standard Cable $49.49
Best deal from TIVO (3 yr pre pay) $8.31
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$57.80 per month


Look at that. Worst case scenario and TiVo's cheaper by 3 cents per month. :) If I go for the 3 year pre-pay option, I pay $57.80 per month, a savings of $11.67 per month or $420.12 over 3 years. Plus, I own the S2DT TiVo.



I believe "worst case" should include "Tivo unit fails 13 months into 3 year commitment." Then do your math again. Compare to Comcast who will just swap out your cable box/dvr.

[ChuckyBox]

Like people who bought the bundle deal who were told it would qualify for MSD are now going to be charged more than double the $6.95 price that was promised us? I would say that is a large number of people considering that is how TiVo has been pushing the bundled deals for the last year. Service just for two of my bundled boxes alone is going to cost me $168 more per year. I'm sorry, but I feel as though I have been suckered by TiVo on this one.
How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.

[rainwater]

How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.

Actually, the FAQ explicitly says when the contract is up, you will continue at the current rate plan for the number of years you originally signed up for.

What else do I have to go on? Nothing on the TiVo website and nothing on the FAQ says otherwise. I'm sorry I choose not to believe some magic fairy is coming to save me.

[PhillyGuy]

Thanks for the info. Comcast has a $5/month HDTV STB for encrypted HD channels which kido did not include in his S3 example. Can an S3 with cableCARDs receive encrypted HD channels, eliminating the need for the HDTV STB?

Yes, S3 is a replacement for cable set-top box. However, you would still need to pay for the cable cards.

[mportuesi]

But for a life of me I don't understand why people who honestly believe that TiVo has the best DVR available are so ticked off by minor price and/or commitment increase.

This has already been covered in the forums, so I'm not sure how you overlooked it.

Many people don't want to commit to three years of service on a Series 2 box.

There are three major transitions happening in the television industry:

- from analog to digital
- from SD to HD
- from broadcast to internet download

Guess where the Series 2 sits on that technology curve. Series 2 only supports that last item (downloadable content), and with it's sucky network performance it only does that weakly.

I'm actively phasing out analog/SD video equipment in my home. When my old SD TV dies, I'm not going to replace it with another SD set. Likewise, I'm not going to commit to three years of service on a unit that may not be useful to me for that much time. Technology simply moves too quickly.

[Einselen]

Likewise, I'm not going to commit to three years of service on a unit that may not be useful to me for that much time. Technology simply moves too quickly.

Again commitment is tied to the account not the unit.

[mfogarty5]

Actually, the FAQ explicitly says when the contract is up, you will continue at the current rate plan for the number of years you originally signed up for.

What else do I have to go on? Nothing on the TiVo website and nothing on the FAQ says otherwise. I'm sorry I choose not to believe some magic fairy is coming to save me.

It says it right here.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

[Einselen]

It says it right here.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

Rainwater however wanting to take those boxes and put them to MSD. Granted at least rain does not have to commit for a year and so $13.95/month so that service at $12.95 isn't too bad but still when rainwater bought the box when they did they thought they would be able to get MSD for $6.95/month after without the now 3 year committment.

One thing to note from this is a valuable lesson. If it is not in the specific terms of your contract don't always assume it will be there when you get out of your contract.

[rainwater]

It says it right here.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

I'm on a bundle plan, not the 1 year commitment program. That quote seems to indicate people who already pay $12.95 get to keep that rate. I am not paying that rate. Also, it doesn't account for MSD.

[mportuesi]

Again commitment is tied to the account not the unit.

I may not even want to buy another Tivo three years from now. I went through a lot of consideration before committing to a Series 3 upgrade.

[Gai-jin]

How many times are you going to sing this exact same refrain? You've been told by the FAQ and a couple of other people who have read it that the new pricing only applies to new hardware, not existing customers, but you choose not to believe it. Okay, fine, you want to believe that you're going to have to pay more without ever finding out if it is true or not. You're going to pay more. TiVo raised its prices. It has every right to do so. Pay the price or cancel your service -- it is a simple choice. Deal with it.


You must really enjoy imagining what people write, rather than reading the posts, eh?

No where in the faq does it say that if you're on a 1 year 12.95 contract now (or any other contract), your rate will be 6.95 after the contract for msd elegible boxes. Previously, even if you were on a contract at a higher rate, you could do a new 1 year contract after the end of your current contract (which was still a ripoff, but that's old news) and get the 6.95 rate from that point forwards.

[Einselen]

I may not even want to buy another Tivo three years from now. I went through a lot of consideration before committing to a Series 3 upgrade.

Not saying anything on you wanting to upgrade with the 3 years, it just seemed like you were talking about how SD is going out and you would not want to commit to a 3 yr SD unit when HD will possibly be the norm by then. Many people are confused thinking that the service is tied to the box, I was like that earlier this week as I forgot about the post from Stephen saying it is to the account and can be transfered to another box. Just making sure to stress the service can be transfered from box to box.

[HDTiVo]

Would someone be kind enough to PM me when TiVo finishes this Beta test of the FAQ?

Thank you in advance.

[zalusky]

So the question is do you want to commit to Tivo for 3 years as a service and the reasons why some people might feel ambivalent:
1) Tivo and Comcast will come out with a joint box shortly. Will the subscription be with comcast or will it be with Tivo.
2) ATT, Verizon, Dish, and Dtv will all be advancing their products or could even possibly have deals with Tivo as things change. Again will the subscription with these providers be through them or directly with Tivo.
3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.

3 years from now, heck even 1 year from now may be VERY different. Why do you think Tivo ends the lifetime deal for S3 on Dec 31 because they dont want people thinking about the Comcast box or what Apple and Microsoft may be providing.

When vendors keep their roadmaps secret, consumers cant help be cautious when contracts try to lock them into multi-year deals.

For all its issues one nice thing about Comcast is there is no contract vs all its competitors.

[Einselen]

3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.


First of all Apple's iTV is a different market then DVRs. Secondly, I personally do not see iTV doing much at this point of time. $299 to transfer shows you must pay for from iTunes to your TV? Shows that cost $1.99 an episode and then on top of that you have to have storage space to host all these. I sure hope the $299 price tag includes somewhat of a storage system.

Was gonna do some calculations, but forget that for now.

[larrs]

Time-Warner doesn't.

I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.

[HDTiVo]

I was hoping they will bring back Lifetime service plan!
Who the hell would commit to an analog box for that long?

[Gai-jin]

I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.

From speaking with a friend who works at the cable company, I'm given to understand a cablecard ready tv should be able to get HD locals without a cablecard or box, since those channels are broadcast without encryption. Cable channels and premium channels are of course encrypted and require the cablecard to decrypt.

[classicsat]

So the question is do you want to commit to Tivo for 3 years as a service and the reasons why some people might feel ambivalent:
1) Tivo and Comcast will come out with a joint box shortly. Will the subscription be with comcast or will it be with Tivo.
2) ATT, Verizon, Dish, and Dtv will all be advancing their products or could even possibly have deals with Tivo as things change. Again will the subscription with these providers be through them or directly with Tivo.

For #1, it will be subbed through Comcast (as the DirecTV DVR TiVos are subbed through DirecTV).

For #2, if it is on "their" hardware, it will be through them. If it is useing a Standalone Series 2 or Series 3, the provider will likely be what amounts to an agent for TiVo Inc (like a cell phone MVNO).


3) IPTV is coming. We dont know the full breadth of what Apple is doing yet, but we are seeing many content providers provide their content directly through the web and essentially bypassing Comcast and friends. Maybe people arent sure how will Tivo will fair in that landscape vs the legacy landscape.

TiVo is working on the TiVocast service. The big break will be at least one major studio/network deal, and a solution to the bandwidth problem.


Why do you think Tivo ends the lifetime deal for S3 on Dec 31

As a carrot for Lifetime holders.

because they dont want people thinking about the Comcast box or what Apple and Microsoft may be providing.

Nothing to do with it.

[classicsat]

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.


What is considered "customer owned"?
I am guessing A: One that has been privately purchased (not officially), or B: One that was officially purchased, and any commitments fulfilled in either case.

What is considered "new"?
I am guessing any box originally purchased on or after Nov 4,2006, from an offical vendor.

Official: purchased new/refurb/open box from tivo.com or partner B&M/online retailer

Correct me of I am wrong on either count.

[Einselen]

Am I correct in assuming all standalone DVRs originally purchased before Nov 4, 2006 can be subbed (as a new account, or added to an existing account) on the old simple $12.95/$6.95 MSD, and the new plan applies only to new DVRs purchased on or after Nov 4, 2006?


How would Tivo know when you purchased it?

[c3]

I believe that some people are getting them from Comcast, but it is hard to believe. If you do not subscribe to the digital tier, what would you need a cable card for? Are they doing this so you can get your local HD channels? I am not sure.

The local HD channels are included as part of limited basic. CableCards are required for TiVo to get programming data for those digital channels. $1.50/month for two cards, no questions asked.

[Einselen]

What is considered "customer owned"?
I am guessing A: One that has been privately purchased (IE, not new/refurbished from TiVo.com, or one of TiVo's retail or online partners), or B: One that was purchased new/refurb/open box from tivo.com or partner B&M/online retailer, and any commitments fulfilled in either case.



Am I correct in assuming all standalone DVRs originally purchased before Nov 4, 2006 can be subbed (as a new account, or added to an existing account) on the old simple $12.95/$6.95 MSD, and the new plan applies only to new DVRs purchased on or after Nov 4, 2006?

Or does TiVo have a different definition of "new" which would change this?

Also I think you are looking into it too much. A new MSD activation would include a box that was bundled with service for say the 155.40 or 83.40 deals that was going on not too long ago. Tivo said they most likely would honor $12.95 month to month on the box after the committment, but if you wanted to add it in now as MSD it would require a contract as that would be "new". I think that is what is being discussed as new box vs. old box.

[c3]

Only local stations. You also need cable cards to receive guide data, otherwise you have to record all programs on those channels manually. If you want to receive any digital stations other than local ones, you'll still have to get the digital package anyway. The only fee you are really saving by having a S3 is the cost of cable DVR minus the cost of cable cards.

If I want ALL of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.

[Gai-jin]

How would Tivo know when you purchased it?

Well, they could trust their customers and take your word for it, but I think this new pricing/contract fiasco shows they don't trust the customers. So, I suppose you'd have to fax/email a receipt.

[Einselen]

this new pricing/contract fiasco shows they don't trust the customers.

Why do you think Tivo does not trust the customers?

[Gai-jin]

Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?

[Einselen]

Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?

I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.

Besides those with bundles that were going to get MSD after the bundles expired many current customers are not being pushed into a contract. Pony already said nothing is changing and I am sure for almost 98% of the customer base (that is leaving about 90,000 which I still think is too large of a number) they are not being forced into contracts. Also you don't have to do a 3 yr contract if you do not wish, sure the rates go up but what does not have some effect of inflation? Very few things that is.

Now with the contract thing you will bring up MSD and to get the MSD we had in Oct have to do 3 yr contract, well that is not being pushed into it, you still have a choice, that is called price increase. Again, it happens. Don't like it, go somewhere else.

[mportuesi]

Not saying anything on you wanting to upgrade with the 3 years, it just seemed like you were talking about how SD is going out and you would not want to commit to a 3 yr SD unit when HD will possibly be the norm by then. Many people are confused thinking that the service is tied to the box, I was like that earlier this week as I forgot about the post from Stephen saying it is to the account and can be transfered to another box. Just making sure to stress the service can be transfered from box to box.

Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.

A secondary, lesser objection is committing to Tivo over the long term, given the increasing number of options for obtaining programming over the next few years.

I've already "committed" to Tivo anew by getting a series 3 with the Lifetime VIP, which is not unlike a prepaid service plan. I decided that HD content via cable was viable for at least the amount of time it would take for me to get to the breakeven point, so the S3 was worth it. But the S3 is a high-end product and not really an option for most Tivo newbies at this time.

[Einselen]

Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.

A secondary, lesser objection is committing to Tivo over the long term, given the increasing number of options for obtaining programming over the next few years.


Totally can see your view. The thing that has hurt Tivo in this is people's fear to commitment. We as humans do not like committing when we don't know what can be coming up in the futured. However, lots of business plans are about committments, cell phones, internet service, sometimes rent, etc. or else you pay a premium for having no committment.

I do have to say the good thing with the pricing plan again is aligning (for the most part) buying from retail and buying form Tivo.com. Now instead of having 20 million plans there are 3 based on time and then from there 2 based on prepay or monthly for a total of 6.

I just had another idea. What if instead of prepaying for Tivo service you prepay to record so many hours of shows? Almost like prepaid cell phones and using certain number of minutes. The only problem with that is you will get shows recorded you already seen and thus delete right away using up an hour or so and then also you would have to have some small fee for having the guide data, etc. I know it is wacky, but I am thinking outside the box here. Just having a brain dump moment.

[Gai-jin]

I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.

Besides those with bundles that were going to get MSD after the bundles expired many current customers are not being pushed into a contract. Pony already said nothing is changing and I am sure for almost 98% of the customer base (that is leaving about 90,000 which I still think is too large of a number) they are not being forced into contracts. Also you don't have to do a 3 yr contract if you do not wish, sure the rates go up but what does not have some effect of inflation? Very few things that is.

Now with the contract thing you will bring up MSD and to get the MSD we had in Oct have to do 3 yr contract, well that is not being pushed into it, you still have a choice, that is called price increase. Again, it happens. Don't like it, go somewhere else.

And yet, rather than offering some benefit to customers who sign up for another contract, they penalize them. Just less so than customers who don't sign up for another contract.

We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.

As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight? That's what's happening here. Yes, it doesn't affect existing customers today. But it does tomorrow when you want a new box, or when your contract runs out, or... and it will hit you overnight, and without warning for most customers. I've got a lifetime box, and another box with MSD already. I was considering getting a DT tivo with my rewards points and subbing it. This pricing change made the decision for me, and I chose a digital camera instead. I won't be adding another tivo because of these outrageous new prices/contracts.

And yes, to me, it's absolutely a trust issue. It's saying, you've been our customer for years, but we don't trust you to stay, so we're going to penalize you in an extreme fashion if you don't sign a new contract to stay with us.

It's also a trust issue in the other direction. We were told one thing when we signed up for contracts a few days, weeks, or months ago. Now suddenly it's changed. I just lost a lot of trust in tivo.

Personally, I see that as a way to lose customers, not gain. But it's tivo's business, and tivo's call.

[Einselen]

We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.


Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms? I believe the terms said when the contract runs out you go month to month based on the then monthly rate of a 1 year agreement. So today that would be $19.95/month. Now when you signed up they had another pricing plan of $6.95 a month if you sign up for 1 yr and meet certain conditions (you know the MSD conditions, no need to type them). When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions? If so get yourself a lawyer you got a possible breach of contract on your hands. If not (which is the case) then what you did is you ASSUMED that the 1 yr $6.95 rate would still be available when your 1 year is up. I prepaid 3 yrs for my Tivo just recently, I hoped that option would still be available after 3 yrs, but I did not expect it to be. Same should hold true if you sign up for 1 yr, 6 months, 1 month, 1 week, or even 3 hours. Unless it is written in the contract don't expect that offer to be available to you once you are out of your contract. Until the offer is accepted it can be retracted by the offerer.

[rainwater]

When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions?

I was told by TiVo customer service that once my first bundle box contract runs out, I could switch it to $6.95 and once my second box term is over, I could switch it to $12.95 both with new one-year contracts.

If you are saying I shouldn't be upset because they have to right to change their terms, I would respectively disagree when I have been misled this whole time.

[c3]

As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight?

Well, it looks like my cable bill will be increased by 33% ($15 -> $20) in the very near future. Do you think Comcast will prepare a FAQ? :rolleyes:

[lessd]

Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms? I believe the terms said when the contract runs out you go month to month based on the then monthly rate of a 1 year agreement. So today that would be $19.95/month. Now when you signed up they had another pricing plan of $6.95 a month if you sign up for 1 yr and meet certain conditions (you know the MSD conditions, no need to type them). When you signed your contract with Tivo did it say after your term is up you could still get those conditions? If so get yourself a lawyer you got a possible breach of contract on your hands. If not (which is the case) then what you did is you ASSUMED that the 1 yr $6.95 rate would still be available when your 1 year is up. I prepaid 3 yrs for my Tivo just recently, I hoped that option would still be available after 3 yrs, but I did not expect it to be. Same should hold true if you sign up for 1 yr, 6 months, 1 month, 1 week, or even 3 hours. Unless it is written in the contract don't expect that offer to be available to you once you are out of your contract. Until the offer is accepted it can be retracted by the offerer.

You people are making this too complicated..after your contract is up you go month to month at the rate of your former contract so if you have a 3 year MSD contract at $6.95/month, at the end on 3 years you would stay at $6.95/month no contract. This $6.95/month would only change if say new 3 year MSD contract were at say $8.95/month, then you would go at $8.95/month. This appears to be a hard concept to grasp. Also you can change hardware at any time in the contract without any penalty (you could not do that with the old Lifetime Service), so if TiVo produces a Series 4 in two years you could get it and put it on your existing contract (the TiVo you take off would no longer have service unless you purchased another contract).

[cherry ghost]

If I want ALL of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.


That is different than my area. In order to get Digital Classic here, you must subscribe to Standard Cable which includes Basic and Extended Basic.

[c3]

That is different than my area. In order to get Digital Classic here, you must subscribe to Standard Cable which includes Basic and Extended Basic.

Are you talking about Comcast? Yes, policies may be different in different areas. When I called Comcast to ask if I could add digital classic to limited basic, I was told yes. When I went to the local Comcast office, I was told no. Then I called Comcast again, and I had no problem adding it without expanded basic.

[DrewTivo]

How would Tivo know when you purchased it?

When activated? Or when activated minus a few days (say 14 days)? And if you bought it from Tivo, they will know.

[Gai-jin]

Well, it looks like my cable bill will be increased by 33% ($15 -> $20) in the very near future. Do you think Comcast will prepare a FAQ? :rolleyes:

No, but I bet they won't add varying prices depending on what length contract you sign up for, or what date you started, or whatever. As a matter of fact, I don't think they'll lock you into a contract at all. A simple price increase shouldn't require a faq. A price increase + total revamp of how the terms on which service is made available, that can be a bit more confusing.

[Gai-jin]

Told by who? Pony? Stephen? Mr. Tivo himself? Your terms?

Well, here's one quote from Stephen:


# Here's what happens after your commitment period is over: If you do nothing, you will continue to be billed each month at the same rate as your original contract. For example, suppose you buy the bundle with $19.95 for a one year commitment. After twelve months, by default, you'll continue to be billed $19.95 per month. Or, if you purchase the bundle with $469 prepaid (which includes 3 years of service), after 36 months you will start being billed $16.95 per month. Once the commitment period is up, you can cancel at any time.
# Once the commitment is up, you can call us and switch to the service-only monthly or prepay pricing option of your choice (see the next section). For example, you can call and switch to a $12.95 per month service-only plan (with a 12-month commitment).

This is related to the 12.95 rate, not the 6.95, but it's the same issue. And I believe it was later clarified to include both, though I didn't dig far enough into the thread to locate any specific quote.

I understand that they have the right to change their terms. However, I fully expect them to honor their obligation under the terms I signed up under, which includes the official clarification of said terms by tivo employees. Perhaps they can get away with it legally. That doesn't mean I like it, or that it's the 'right' thing to do.

[cherry ghost]

Are you talking about Comcast? Yes, policies may be different in different areas. When I called Comcast to ask if I could add digital classic to limited basic, I was told yes. When I went to the local Comcast office, I was told no. Then I called Comcast again, and I had no problem adding it without expanded basic.


Yes, Comcast. I've tried your way and they won't do it here. Do you get ESPN HD but not SD? Also, we have a different pricing structure. Here, Basic is $27 and Extended is $23.

[ChuckyBox]

You must really enjoy imagining what people write, rather than reading the posts, eh?

You too, apparently:

Deal with it.

[ChuckyBox]

No, but I bet they won't add varying prices depending on what length contract you sign up for, or what date you started, or whatever.
No, Charter just raises my rates by some outrageous amount every single year. And then I call in to cancel some services and they miraculously find a package deal that gives me everything I was getting before for just a few dollars more. Then the next year, we do our little dance all over again. I can't imagine the rates paid by people who don't call in (which is most people, I assume). But year after year, my rates keep creeping up. (Unlike TiVo, which I can still get for $12.95 per month, or even $8.30 per month if I prepay, and that now includes a new box.)


I'm beginning to think Charter doesn't have my best interests at heart. Where's the love? Where's the trust?

[Gai-jin]

No, Charter just raises my rates by some outrageous amount every single year. And then I call in to cancel some services and they miraculously find a package deal that gives me everything I was getting before for just a few dollars more. Then the next year, we do our little dance all over again. I can't imagine the rates paid by people who don't call in (which is most people, I assume). But year after year, my rates keep creeping up. (Unlike TiVo, which I can still get for $12.95 per month, or even $8.30 per month if I prepay, and that now includes a new box.)


I'm beginning to think Charter doesn't have my best interests at heart. Where's the love? Where's the trust?

When's the last time charter said 'We'll not raise your rates quite so high if you sign up for a multi year contract with termination fees roughly equal to a years service'

[ChuckyBox]

Understood. My primary objection is to committing my current S2 box, which is old technology.
If you don't want to go the full 3 years, the 2-year plan looks pretty good. It's $14.95/month, which is $2 per month more than the old service-only rate, but it includes a new box. So you can think of it as just renting the box. You could also put up $70 and get a DT box. There is still going to be tons of SD content for the next two years, so you're really not risking much.


I've already "committed" to Tivo anew by getting a series 3 with the Lifetime VIP, which is not unlike a prepaid service plan. I decided that HD content via cable was viable for at least the amount of time it would take for me to get to the breakeven point, so the S3 was worth it.
This isn't much of a commitment since the S3 with lifetime will have excellent resale value for many years. In terms of breakeven, you're probably already there (or will be once the VIP offer ends).

[ChuckyBox]

When's the last time charter said 'We'll not raise your rates quite so high if you sign up for a multi year contract with termination fees roughly equal to a years service'
I wish they would.

[dstoffa]

But year after year, my rates keep creeping up.

Do your cableTV rates increase with the rate of inflation? Or are the rates going up at a faster pace? Are they giving you more each time they go up (even if it's channels you would NEVER watch?)

When I think of the rate of inflation to be about 3 percent a year, a buck or two increase doesn't seem outrageous.

-Doug

[classicsat]

Why do they suddenly feel the need to push a 3 year contract on customers? Particularly customers who have already fulfilled the obligations of an initial contract, and or have been with tivo for years?

Nobody is "pushing" contracts, especially on existing customers that have fulfilled commitments and are paying month-to-month. The contracts are only for new cusomers and new hardware.


We were told long ago we could get MSD when current contracts run out, either by doing nothing, or by signing up for another 1 year contract at the msd rate, at which we'd get the msd rate indefinitely. Now they changed it.
The only thing that changed is what the MSD rate is, and the clause that they have the right to revert (new) month-to-month just off a 2 or 3 year "contract" to the one year rate.

[quote]
As I mentioned above, what would you say if your cable bill effectively went up 54% overnight? That's what's happening here. Yes, it doesn't affect existing customers today. But it does tomorrow when you want a new box, or when your contract runs out, or..
[quote]

When you add a box, yes or replace a Lifetime, yes.
You can always (for the foreseeable future anyways) buy a retail box full priced, and just replace an existing box, without having to renew a contrc on it.

[mnw2000]

I am a Tivo fan.

The requirements for a 3-year commitment with a $200 early termination fee makes no sense. My cable company has no such commitment requirement on either my service or my DVR. No one wants a $200 early termination fee over thier heads when they have no idea what the future holds.

Here are some reasons that one may need to end the Tivo service:

1) A Tivo user moves to location which Tivo does not support. (They do exist!)
2) A Tivo user switches to a service that Tivo does not support. (Verizon FIOS?)
3) A Tivo user decides to move in to a location which already has DVR service.
4) A Tivo user decides that they want HD support without a $800 product fee.
5) A Tivo user wants true dual std. cable tuner support. (Tivo supports one cable, one OVA.)
6) A multiple Tivo user doesn't need all the Tivo units they have. (Kids go to college, etc.)

I am sure that are many more reasons for a Tivo user to want to end their service. For this reason, and not the monthly cost, Tivo new pricing makes will scare people away.

As long as I am not required to make a commitment and maintain my current pricing, I will stay with Tivo. However, if I get a email requiring me to make a 3 year commitment to maintain my pricing, I will be moving to a Time Warner DVR or a future Verizon FIOS DVR.

Marc
-------
40 Hour Series 2 (Under 1-year package program)
80 Hour Series 2 (Month-to-Month additional unit)

[ChuckyBox]

Do your cableTV rates increase with the rate of inflation? Or are the rates going up at a faster pace? Are they giving you more each time they go up (even if it's channels you would NEVER watch?)

That would take a lot of digging to answer since I've been with them for quite a few years and have added and subtracted things from time to time. And they have rejiggered the packages and what's in them (they love to spread popular channels into as many "tiers" as they can) so many times that you'd probably need a Ph.D. in relativistic statistical accounting to figure it out.

But the initial jump that gets my attention is about $20 to $30, and I get it down to about $5 to $10. Sometimes that will include something new (like a jump in my internet download speed -- another thing they like to change a lot), but I'll usually lose it in the next round to keep the price down.


When I think of the rate of inflation to be about 3 percent a year, a buck or two increase doesn't seem outrageous.

Sure, but if TiVo did it, look out...

[Einselen]

You people are making this too complicated..after your contract is up you go month to month at the rate of your former contract so if you have a 3 year MSD contract at $6.95/month, at the end on 3 years you would stay at $6.95/month no contract. This $6.95/month would only change if say new 3 year MSD contract were at say $8.95/month, then you would go at $8.95/month. This appears to be a hard concept to grasp. Also you can change hardware at any time in the contract without any penalty (you could not do that with the old Lifetime Service), so if TiVo produces a Series 4 in two years you could get it and put it on your existing contract (the TiVo you take off would no longer have service unless you purchased another contract).

Les in no way was I refering to that part of the contract. I was mearly discussing how individuals purchased bundles and at the end of the year were expecting to get the $6.95 rate.

However, since we are talking about what the rate goes to, until Tivo says so my 3 year unit when expires I will expect to jump the monthly rate of a 1 year service agreement. Why? That is what my terms said and until Tivo themselves tell me yes it will go to the monthly fee of the 3 year contract then I will take that, but it doesn't matter for me right now because I still have 2 years and 10 months or so on that Tivo.

[Einselen]

Well, here's one quote from Stephen:

Quote from Stephen

This is related to the 12.95 rate, not the 6.95, but it's the same issue. And I believe it was later clarified to include both, though I didn't dig far enough into the thread to locate any specific quote.

I understand that they have the right to change their terms. However, I fully expect them to honor their obligation under the terms I signed up under, which includes the official clarification of said terms by tivo employees. Perhaps they can get away with it legally. That doesn't mean I like it, or that it's the 'right' thing to do.

So you are going off clarification of what the then pricing scheme is and saying you should now be bound to it? Legally I think we all agree no. In good business practice you probably should. Does Tivo have to do anything though? No. However what I would recommend doing besides bitching on here on how much you hate the new plan is to casually call up Tivo, ask politely for a supervisor, explain your situation, explain what Stephen said on the forums if you like, explain how you understand pricing changes, but you were under the belief that once that boxed expires you would be able to get that rate. Do not under any circumstance get boiling angry. You can get somewhat disgruntled and upset, but don't overdo it or the supervisor will do nothing for you. Now do this today (Well tomorrow probably would be better) regardless of when your box's years is up. Why? Later down the road I doubt they will be so helpful. They will tell you pricing plan has been up for X amount of months, yada yada yada. Regardless of the status get a case number. Why a case number if denied? So that way if Tivo does come back and say they will honor it you have a case number already to refer back to. Now once you do that report back and if you are denied then we can go lynch the monster who came up with the pricing change.

[Gai-jin]

So you are going off clarification of what the then pricing scheme is and saying you should now be bound to it? Legally I think we all agree no. In good business practice you probably should. Does Tivo have to do anything though? No.

Sounds about like what I said. Legally, they can get away with it. Is it the right thing to do? Not a chance. When one of their head people puts in writing the way things will work, they should honor that.

Either way, I don't need to call tivo. I have 1 unit with lifetime, 1 unit on MSD, and 1 unit I decided not to buy/add just because of this new pricing.

[Einselen]

Either way, I don't need to call tivo. I have 1 unit with lifetime, 1 unit on MSD, and 1 unit I decided not to buy/add just because of this new pricing.

I thought you also had the same issue as Rainwater with a box you purchased under a deal and at the end of the year was planning on taking that over to MSD at the $6.95 rate. Well then my advice goes to rainwater and others in that boat.

AS far as you go then you have two options and I think you already decided what you would like to do.

1) Accept the new price scheme
2) Don't and not buy anymore Tivos.

All the whining, complaining, repeating of arguments is not going to change Tivo's pricing plan. They know you are upset, but the bean counters have more info then any of us can have or will have and they crunched the numbers and the expected value of this price plan is greater then the old price plans. I think Chucky said it best in one of his post.

[c3]

My cable company has no such commitment requirement on either my service or my DVR.

Correct, but Comcast charges $70/month to get their DVR.

[Gene S]

I haven't seen this question come up yet. What if you want to sell/give a S2 box to someone else, how much will the service cost for the new owner?

Currently I have one S3(lifetime), and two single tuner S2's(one lifetime, one monthly @ 6.95). I am not under any contract. Both S2's were bought retail, the S3 through Tivo.com and I transferred the lifetime from an old S1 to the S3.

Since I got the S3, I don't need one of my S2's. I was going to give my S2, that I pay monthly on, to my parents. They already have a single tuner S2 that is lifetimed.

Before the new pricing they would just pay $6.95 a month. What would they have to pay now?

Pony's FAQ doesn't answer this, but reading the MSD terms from Tivo.com it looks like they can only pay $6.95 a month if they agree to a 3 year contract.

This new pricing is great for brand new customers. But because of previous pricing options, it leaves too many questions for existing customers. A company that requires a customer to spend an hour reading fine print to figure out how much said product costs, is doing something wrong.

[ChuckyBox]

I don't see that as a trust issue. I see that more as a gurantee source of income instead of going month by month after a short time commitment.

Some history:

The original 1-year service commitment was purely to reduce the churn from people who would sign up for the service for a short time and then cancel. This is the worst kind of customer that any subscription business can have, so even if you slow sales because of the requirement, you're usually better off.

But when the company (under the new CEO) discovered that a major impediment to closing a sale with a customer was the idea that people had to pay for the box and the monthly service, they researched other ways of structuring the deals. They claim to have had very good success with plans like the current bundles, whereby a customer could get a box and service for a monthly payment only, or a single upfront payment.

But those plans had a much higher subscriber acquisition cost (SAC) than earlier plans (which were already fairly high SAC), and TiVo had to make sure they recovered their investment in the customer. So in came the service commitment at various rates and lengths. They've tweaked them a bit since the original bundled plans came out, but the requirement is the same: stick around long enough to pay for your box.

But this led to another problem: retail and online pricing were different from one another, giving TiVo no real way to advertise their product in a broad, national campaign because the online prices and the retail prices (and the subscriptions that went with them) were all over the place.

TiVo has been struggling to grow for years -- they've been losing money from day 1, and they simply need more standalone subscribers to get to break-even. The company doesn't even need more money from each sub, just having more subs is enough. Now they believe they've found a way -- the price of the hardware has come down enough that they can offer plans at the current price points and not have to charge an upfront fee for the basic box.

So they have to bring the retailers in line with the more successful pricing model, even if it means still using the rebates, so that they can advertise nationally and uniformly and get a lot of new subscribers.

Does TiVo want to raise your rates? Hell yes. If they could get and extra $3/month out of their 1.5 million subscriptions, they'd be in the black and growth would be the only issue facing the company. But they know they can't do that. They've got a nice, content, low-churn pool of subscribers, and the last thing in the world they want to do is stir that up.

So they're going to leave most everybody alone. Customers will pay the new rates for new stuff, otherwise they probably won't even know anything has changed. Some customers, like zeo and rain, are in an in-between situation. If TiVo were perfect, those customers would roll seamlessly into the $6.95 MSD rate they were expecting. But TiVo is far from perfect and our friends are probably going to have to call and explain that they've paid for their hardware and they want the favorable rate without having the longest commitment. And they'll probably get it because it will cost TiVo a lot more to replace them than it will to give them a rate that they're already giving other customers (i.e., a rate that the company makes a profit from).

Anyway, the point here is that the commitments are about recovering SAC, not so much about predictability of income.

[Gai-jin]

AS far as you go then you have two options and I think you already decided what you would like to do.

1) Accept the new price scheme
2) Don't and not buy anymore Tivos.


This isn't necesarilly about buying new tivo's. It's about existing multiple tivo homes.

Either way, this pricing scandal has already lost tivo 1 sub from me, as I was about to order a DT for my home as a 3rd box. Now I won't be. I'm sure many others here have come to the same decision. As your option 2 suggests, I think tivo will lose a lot of subs because of this, and even more in customer goodwill.

[Einselen]

Anyway, the point here is that the commitments are about recovering SAC, not so much about predictability of income.
Well said, better then what I could do, clearly as you have read all my posts, lol

[Einselen]

But TiVo is far from perfect and our friends are probably going to have to call and explain that they've paid for their hardware and they want the favorable rate without having the longest commitment. And they'll probably get it because it will cost TiVo a lot more to replace them than it will to give them a rate that they're already giving other customers (i.e., a rate that the company makes a profit from).


I believe this is true too. The cost of keeping a customer is cheaper then aquiring a new customer to take their place. Unfortunatly Best Buy does not understand that (I got a beef with Best Buy and it just felt good taking a jab at them right now, haha).

As a former employee of Blockbuster we were always told if the customer is complaining about "late fees" (we Blockbuster employees, like to call them extending viewing fees) then to take them off. If the price was too much that we felt uncomfotable then offer to take half the fees off, if they insist say that is the best you can do, but have them talk to the manager and bring the manager over right away. Why? That $15, $20, $25 late fee does suck losing that income (as a huge amount of BB income was through those fees) however keeping that customer happy and coming back in the long run covered it. Also I was told by my store manager that if a manager did not help out the customer and the customer complained to the ditrict manager that customer not only got the late fees removed but also got a gift card. Of course there were a few instances where no matter what we would not take off the fee, that happened to those who abused the sytem or complained every single time, but for the most part our job as CSR is to make the customer happy and if by waiving that fee then so be it.

[Einselen]

This isn't necesarilly about buying new tivo's. It's about existing multiple tivo homes.

Either way, this pricing scandal has already lost tivo 1 sub from me, as I was about to order a DT for my home as a 3rd box. Now I won't be. I'm sure many others here have come to the same decision. As your option 2 suggests, I think tivo will lose a lot of subs because of this, and even more in customer goodwill.

Don't you have to buy a new Tivo to add another Tivo into your home?

As I said I think us Tivoians that are on here feel more, what is the word, I guess putoff by the new plan versus the average consumer. The reason is we know what was before and the ins and outs of everything. Do I agree with the new pricing plan? Not really. Was I intially pissed when I read about? Hell yeah. Have I learned to step back and accept it. Yes. You may not be in the same boat as me. You may never be in the same boat as me. Unfortunatly I am sure there is a good number that agree with you and will now "vow" to never buy another Tivo, but I am sure Tivo has expected that and calculated that into the costs. To me I see no other viable alternative. Now maybe I will in 6 months, 1 yr, 3 yrs, 10 yrs but until then I still see Tivo as a fair price (even with the longer committments). If I am in the market for another DVR of course I will start with Tivo. Again though that can change just like the prices of any good that you don't have a contract on.

[Gai-jin]

Don't you have to buy a new Tivo to add another Tivo into your home?


Yes, or no. I have an extra unsubbed S2 sitting at home not being used right now, so I could just resub it. Not that I intend to. I was going to give it away to someone who would use it.

For me, I was about to order the DT from tivo rewards. Literally ready to push the button this week. Till I saw this new pricing.

So I guess, technically, that means I can personally account for 2 new subs tivo just lost because of this new pricing.

[Einselen]

So I guess, technically, that means I can personally account for 2 new subs tivo just lost because of this new pricing.

Glad I helped you with the count there. :p

[dswallow]

Pony...

First... I'd suggest on your web pages where you show the prepaid plan options to show what that amount prepaid represents per-month just so it's easy for someone shopping to compare. Right now one has to pull out a calculator. I see it on some of your pages, but specifically, it's these pages where the monthly amount isn't shown:

http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series2180hrDTDVR
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR

Second... It's unclear what you mean by "then-applicable monthly rate" in the TiVo package details page (http://www.tivo.com/0.4.offerdetail.pkg.asp?terms=allMO), it'd be better to be clearer about that.

Third... Nowhere on any pages one might browse looking to buy equipment that I've seen is there mention of multi service discount prices, or if there are any at all for multiple units. The only link I found was on the package details page I mentioned above. That ought to be more clearly shown everywhere price is talked about, even if it's just a link in fine print at the bottom.



I've been around a while here, but always as a DirecTV subscriber, so I've never had to deal with the fee structure that non-DirecTV TiVo users deal with, but obviously I get to read about it a lot and I've always tried to stay up on it so I can make suggestions to friends and answer questions as well.

Now, I have little good to say about all the changes at DirecTV lately. I find their attitude and roadmap for the future to be about as abysmal as I've always considered cable companies and cell phone companies to be; nobody anymore seems to believe they can hold on to a customer by any means other than forcing it upon them by contract in the form of hiding equipment costs in monthly fees and/or termination fees.

I honestly don't know what I'd do if I wasn't already set with my DirecTV HR10-250's. I certainly have no love for cable companies to begin with, but seeing TiVo repeatedly move bit by bit into the same attitude problems as cable has always had and DirecTV has been learning to have, I doubt I'd buy one; I'd certainly look at and try out every alternative first. My initial opinion is that I find the new TiVo pricing options pretty bad compared to what they used to be. If I'd never know how things used to be, would they look similarly bad? I can't say. But it's looking just like cell phone companies... they don't trust they'll keep a customer any way but by locking them in by contract and with high termination fees to break that contract early.

At the very least, if your termination fee was prorated for the remaining term, it'd at least be possible to believe that it represented some contribution on TiVo's part towards the cost of the hardware. But that it's just $200 if terminated on day 32 and $200 on day 532, then it's just a tactic to lock a subscriber in. It just feels dirty. Like cell phone companies, and like DirecTV... you'll get away with it for awhile, but you're not making friends with the policy, either.

Frankly, I think things are now overly complex. 6 different service options, up-front fees on boxes; complexities of multiple unit service discounts; termination fees. What a mess. You used to be able to buy a box for a set price. The equipment price was one thing and the service price was another. And they were separate, not hiding costs for each other. Maybe there's a bigger market for your new way, but that pricing model is one that I associate with some slimy business practices out there. Anyway, good luck with it.

[zalusky]

You can get many of the TV shows free with ads or though Itunes without ads or though DVDs at the end of the season now.

I have to believe this will accelerate and eventually include HD.

Tivo and the Satellite companies have to be afraid of this and are going for contracts to reduce churn and lock you in so you dont change on some whim. For example your favorite show being available through an easier vehicle and you dont have to subscribe to the whole smorgasboard of channels.

The cable companies are pushing triple play in an attempt to lock you into some set of products you wont need. In fact in 5 to ten years all you will really need is the broadband connection as you most likely will be able to video and phone over IP.

Lets see in just 1 year where we will be with Vista offering built in media center and Apple working their way into the living room as well.

I have no insider knowledge of anything but if Apple or even Microsoft released a plasma/LCD with built in wireless you would be able to watch streaming and purchased shows in a simple plugin fashion. At first it may be just Itunes stuff but Apple has a relationship with Google who has tremendous bandwidth and they could do the streaming part and boom your ready to watch just the shows you want and not have to buy everything.

Now Tivo is attempting to the same with Tivocast - Great. The question is whether they can survive the competition. Perhaps they will become part of the competition.

[DCIFRTHS]

Hmm. I wonder how may posts will accumulate before / if Pony replies.

[Lazlo123]

I could be wrong... but I always thought FAQ's were meant to answer questions... no create more... I'm new to the area, as you can see by my number of posts... Most FAQ's i've read of other companies are very direct, clear, and to the point. I'm not even a Tivo subscriber yet and as one who likes to look at the FAQ's before purchasing.. I have to admit, I am disappointed.. but i'll hang around and see how things go, it's still early. :)

[samo]

At the very least, if your termination fee was prorated for the remaining term, it'd at least be possible to believe that it represented some contribution on TiVo's part towards the cost of the hardware. But that it's just $200 if terminated on day 32 and $200 on day 532, then it's just a tactic to lock a subscriber in. It just feels dirty. Like cell phone companies, and like DirecTV... you'll get away with it for awhile, but you're not making friends with the policy, either.

Although I agree with most of your post and personally don't have any plans to go back to SA TiVos, to be fair to Tivo they do prorate termination fees.
Look at new contract agreement.

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp
An early termination fee of the lesser of $200.00 or the amount owed on the remaining term of your monthly TiVo Package commitment will be charged to you if your monthly TiVo Package is cancelled prior to the end of your commitment, except as permitted under TiVo's 30 day Money Back Guarantee.
Also DirecTV does not charge you termination fee if you return equipment. Not even all of the equipment - just IRDs and DVRs (you keep antennas, switches and cables). Since newest deals are all lease, you return equipment that didn't cost you money (except for HR20 that cost $200 to get).

[dswallow]

Although I agree with most of your post and personally don't have any plans to go back to SA TiVos, to be fair to Tivo they do prorate termination fees.
Look at new contract agreement.

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.6.asp
No they don't. That's not a proration being described; that's just saying if the monthly fees you'd owe for the remainder of your term total less than the $200 then that's all you'd have to pay. A proration would spread the termination fee across the entire term of the agreement such that you'd only have to pay the portion for the remainder of your term. For instance, if you had a 24 month agreement and a $200 termination fee, $200/24 is what you'd pay for each month remaining on your agreement if you terminated it early.

DirecTV prorates their early termination fee. TiVo doesn't, just like most cell phone companies have been doing though Verizon recently changed their policy: http://www.entrepreneur.com/technology/managingtechnology/article167630.html

“We believe dissatisfaction with flat early termination fees is tarnishing the entire industry,” announced CEO Denny Strigl in a Verizon press release. No kidding. :)

[dswallow]

Also DirecTV does not charge you termination fee if you return equipment. Not even all of the equipment - just IRDs and DVRs (you keep antennas, switches and cables). Since newest deals are all lease, you return equipment that didn't cost you money (except for HR20 that cost $200 to get).
Under the new lease terms, you always must return your equipment... at least the receivers and remotes (the dish and multiswitches stay). AND you face paying an early termination fee, too. The option to return the equipment in lieu of paying any (prorated) early termination fee no longer exists for those people with leased equipment.

[samo]

Under the new lease terms, you always must return your equipment... at least the receivers and remotes (the dish and multiswitches stay). AND you face paying an early termination fee, too. The option to return the equipment in lieu of paying any (prorated) early termination fee no longer exists for those people with leased equipment.
You are right. My bad. I wasn't up to speed on lease terms. When I signed up the deal was that you purchase hardware for free (after rebate) and you can cancel for free if you return hardware. Apparently they changed the terms.

[Gai-jin]

DirecTV prorates their early termination fee. TiVo doesn't, just like most cell phone companies have been doing though Verizon recently changed their policy: http://www.entrepreneur.com/technology/managingtechnology/article167630.html

“We believe dissatisfaction with flat early termination fees is tarnishing the entire industry,” announced CEO Denny Strigl in a Verizon press release. No kidding. :)

I don't know about others, but cingular pro-rates the fee in many states. I had always figured it was because the laws in those states require it, I don't know why else they would flat fee in some areas and pro rate in others.

[HDTiVo]

I'm new to the area, as you can see by my number of posts... Most FAQ's i've read of other companies are very direct, clear, and to the point.
They don't get any newbier around here than that.

Welcome to the TiVofusion!
:eek:

[bicker]

Actually, given the number of people who participate in these fora, I take the lack of general outrage as a sign that most people get it and realize that the changes are no big deal and don't even affect most of us. Compared to the outrage over the price of the S3 and all the prognostications of TiVo doom over that (despite the fact that by all appearances the S3 continues to sell well), this is positively mild. There are a few people who seem to have lost the ability to take in new information and apply it, but that is, I guess, to be expected any time anything changes. Absolutely. There have been a lot of blow-ups recently, but from where I'm sitting, the 7.3/7.3.1 situation and this price increase situation are "normal" -- there will ALWAYS be people who will complain about ANYTHING. The S3 situation was UNIQUE -- it was distinctly different from the S2 introduction, and I think indicated that there was a serious mistake made, though I'm not willing to speculate what that mistake was.

[bmgoodman]

Here's my wild speculation:

Tivo screws up with the release of 7.3.x software. Lots of complaints. Lots of people going month-to-month call to cancel service. (Some may have been given price breaks to retain.) Tivo loses some money in the debacle. So, imagine the Tivo braintrust trying to figure out how to keep this from happening again. Well, they could either ensure that future updates are more satisfactory to more users or they can attempt to lock people in for extended periods so that future bad releases don't automatically result in the loss of customers. It gives them time to fix things while knowing that current customers won't drop like flies.

So, we know which option they chose.

End of wild speculation. :(

[Gai-jin]

Absolutely. There have been a lot of blow-ups recently, but from where I'm sitting, the 7.3/7.3.1 situation and this price increase situation are "normal" -- there will ALWAYS be people who will complain about ANYTHING. The S3 situation was UNIQUE -- it was distinctly different from the S2 introduction, and I think indicated that there was a serious mistake made, though I'm not willing to speculate what that mistake was.

And you don't believe this new pricing scheme is a mistake on tivo's part?

[Fraser+Dief]

Sweet. Go away for a while, and it's always fun to come back here and see what latest move Tivo has shot itself in the foot with. :rolleyes:

When I first got my tivo last year, I was all proud, telling everyone I knew I about it. Now, I'm embarrassed to mention it. I sure as hell can't recommend it to anyone anymore.

Now, it's simply a question of who'll survive longer, my S2, or Tivo the company.

My money's on the hardware. :down:

[smark]

I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.

[bicker]

And you don't believe this new pricing scheme is a mistake on tivo's part?I don't like the new pricing scheme, but I'm not sure it is a "mistake" (while I am pretty confident that there was a mistake made with the S3 introduction). The pricing change is not that different from other pricing changes I've seen other companies employ. It isn't especially unusual or objectionable. Whether the customers they'd lose would be worth more or less than the customers they'd retain longer is an open question, a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.

[Billy66]

... a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.

You've been around here long enough Bicker. You've seen this marketing department bleed all of the AOL money away etc. Honestly, what makes you think that TiVo has "appropriate" research data? That's a serious question, not just a jab. That research would be a marketing function and marketing is NOT what TiVo does best....or well.

[bicker]

I appreciate what you're saying, but at least they're trying. Believing a customer's utterly data-less gut-feel (even if it is your own) would tend to have even worse results. So in a nutshell, while they may not be getting it right, they're more likely to be getting closer to the mark than Gai-jin, for example, unless he's working for a competitor and has told us about that. Members of the general public are, as a group, notorious whiners about pricing, and so I'd give voiced opinion absolutely no credibility. It all comes down to what customers actually do -- NOT what they say they'll do.

[Billy66]

Agreed Bicker. They haven't done well, but it's surely better than we can do from our chairs.

[HDTiVo]

You've been around here long enough Bicker. You've seen this marketing department bleed all of the AOL money away etc. Honestly, what makes you think that TiVo has "appropriate" research data? That's a serious question, not just a jab. That research would be a marketing function and marketing is NOT what TiVo does best....or well.

Amen.


... a question for which you could only have the answer if you had the appopriate market research data. And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.
How would you rate the opinion of someone with over 20 years experience analyzing business strategies particularly in the technology arena?

TiVo is doubling down on a terrible strategy. Baring a miracle, the result is going to be either plummeting subscriptions or massive acquisition costs which will never be recouped.

I'd take back the last CEO - he who's name I shall not mention.

[Gai-jin]

I don't like the new pricing scheme, but I'm not sure it is a "mistake" (while I am sure that there was a mistake made with the S3 introduction). <snip> And I think that's an important point: With something like pricing, putting your gut feel over their market research is silly.

So how is it that you can be so certain of one mistake, yet declare that I can't know whether another issue was a mistake or not?

As for my gut feeling vs. market research, can you show me said market research? Until you can prove it, I don't know it exists. Meanwhile, I can personally confirm 2 subscriptions TiVo has lost because of this change. That's not gut feeling, that's fact. My gut feeling, on the other hand, is that I'm not the only sub they're losing over this.

[jlb]

commitments and prepaid plans.

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

Sorry if this is a smeek (I really didn't want to read the whole thing)......

But this statement opens up another point of confusion.........Previously, my understanding was that if I took one of my current boxes out of service, and then later reactivated it, that it would be subject to the new pricing/committment terms.

However, this statement in the FAQ contradicts this. My box would not be a new purchase, it would be a reactivation, or, a new activation. According to the FAQ, then, I would expect my reactivated box to be $6.95/month with no committment.

If this is true, then it makes it easy for me to consider replacing my 2 STS2 boxes with a new DTS2.....as I could then add one of the others back down the road if I felt I wanted the third tuner.

[timckelley]

Has there been any update to the FAQ presented at the time of this thread's OP? It sounds there needs to be.

[MediaLivingRoom]

Has there been any update to the FAQ presented at the time of this thread's OP? It sounds there needs to be.


Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!

[Einselen]

Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!

I have to agree with the aboves posts. They need a FAQ 2.0. The FAQ helped some, but there are still a lot of gray area cases and there are lots of old users holding out right now to sort it out before taking nay actions.

Pony... where are you?

[ZeoTiVo]

Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!
Well that is exactly the kind of hidden overhead TiVo wants to end with these committment periods. You are certainly free to use the TiVo as you see fit adn I can think of many legitimate reasons to have a TiVo off for 6 months - summer home; only use it during major events like Baseball playoffs or Olympics etc... but for TiVo there is the added bookkeeping overhead of DVRs being turned on or off as they just keep going month to month. The 1 year committment was enough to chop out that expense to TiVo though. The new plans in total suggest that the 1 year contract is doing OK by TiVo inc's analysis and they saw the risk of switching all plans over to one unified structure as worth the risk.

Note though MediaLivingRoom that I am fully aware that this imapcts you as paying more cost for something you do not use regularly and of course no one likes to pay more cost. TiVo is working with a larger number set that just one or even some subscribers though - and that may be the main gripe in all this. People that have been with TiVo for 4 or more years felt at first like TiVo looked out for every single subscriber and of course the numbers were smaller adn TiVo did indeed need to cling to every single subscription. They never made a profit doing this though and now times have changed and TiVo policy is round the whole subscription base and what will make a profit - not just what will keep every single subscriber

[Ereth]

If I want ALL of the non-premium HD channels, I can have $15 limited basic + $10 digital classic + $1.50 CableCards. I do not need to pay $35 for expanded basic which has no HD content. Comcast forces me to pay for expanded basic in order to get their DVR.

I wish Comcasts pricing was consistent! I'm paying $20 extra for EACH cablecard, and the digital classic would add another $40 or so to my bill.

[BobCamp1]

I think Tivo is trying to figure out (or reexamining) all the gray areas from the previous FAQ.
This DOES hurt existing customers -- those who wanted to add new boxes or add old boxes back to their subscription. I don't think Tivo realized the impact that this would have on them.

People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology. It is simply changing too fast now and there are too many unknowns. That is why Consumer Reports magazine is advising people to rent a box from month-to-month for now.

[timckelley]

People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology. It is simply changing too fast now and there are too many unknowns. That is why Consumer Reports magazine is advising people to rent a box from month-to-month for now.

contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way? :D

[c3]

People are scared of a two or three-year contract because they'd be foolish to sign one in this area of technology.

But lifetime service was so popular that TiVo had to discontinue it. Lifetimed units was doing quite well on eBay even when TiVo was still offering lifetime service.

[Gai-jin]

contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way? :D

Great, so when (if) dish, dtv, or my local cable co come out with a great new box that has more features than any tivo on the market, can I use tivo's service with it?

Hmm... so, even not tied to the box, it's still severely limiting my options.

[MediaLivingRoom]

Well that is exactly the kind of hidden overhead TiVo wants to end with these committment periods. You are certainly free to use the TiVo as you see fit adn I can think of many legitimate reasons to have a TiVo off for 6 months - summer home; only use it during major events like Baseball playoffs or Olympics etc... but for TiVo there is the added bookkeeping overhead of DVRs being turned on or off as they just keep going month to month. The 1 year committment was enough to chop out that expense to TiVo though. The new plans in total suggest that the 1 year contract is doing OK by TiVo inc's analysis and they saw the risk of switching all plans over to one unified structure as worth the risk.

Note though MediaLivingRoom that I am fully aware that this imapcts you as paying more cost for something you do not use regularly and of course no one likes to pay more cost. TiVo is working with a larger number set that just one or even some subscribers though - and that may be the main gripe in all this. People that have been with TiVo for 4 or more years felt at first like TiVo looked out for every single subscriber and of course the numbers were smaller adn TiVo did indeed need to cling to every single subscription. They never made a profit doing this though and now times have changed and TiVo policy is round the whole subscription base and what will make a profit - not just what will keep every single subscriber


Maybe they should only have a reconnect $2.00 fee to cover that cost AND leave the same MSD if it's on the same Account and Same TSN.

At comcast, anyone can turn in and cancel a DVR, they just charge a Change fee of a few bucks.

[Gai-jin]

But lifetime service was so popular that TiVo had to discontinue it. Lifetimed units was doing quite well on eBay even when TiVo was still offering lifetime service.

Lifetime service makes sense and != long term contract.

In most people's minds, lifetime makes the tivo more like a vcr or other consumer electronics device, where you pay the price for the equipment, and it just works, no service fee's required.

Most people don't like monthly fee's, and don't see why you would pay one for a digital vcr (read: TiVo). This combined with an inherent dislike for being locked into a situation, with no option of changing or discontinuing the service all together, adds up to the fact that people who saw lifetime as a good investment will see a minimum service term on tivo as something to run from.

[c3]

Hmm... so, even not tied to the box, it's still severely limiting my options.

TiVo limiting your options to TiVo boxes. What a great concept! :rolleyes:

[Gai-jin]

TiVo limiting your options to TiVo boxes. What a great concept! :rolleyes:

I certainly can't blame them for wanting me to stay with tivo. I'm just pointing out that the 'contract is on service, not on box' argument doesn't really mean much.

[zalusky]

contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way? :D

Yes but I am assuming it means if you have 4 boxes, you have to keep 4 boxes.

But what if the kids go away or you decide to use slingbox as a gateway to of the displays.

What if a server comes out that can serve multiple displays similar to the ATT Uverse solution.

It changes the business model and you might not want to maintain all 4 connections.

With DTV you can disconnect a mirror'd receiver without penalty. You just need to maintain the base service.

Is that true here?

[c3]

I certainly can't blame them for wanting me to stay with tivo. I'm just pointing out that the 'contract is on service, not on box' argument doesn't really mean much.

It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.

[tbeckner]

This DOES hurt existing customers -- those who wanted to add new boxes or add old boxes back to their subscription. I don't think Tivo realized the impact that this would have on them. I agree!

I was going to reactivate my SVR-2000 and add a DT to my cable feed, but when I went to do that on November 4th I was surprised by the new pricing, which IMHO is clear out of sight; remember I was originally on the $9.95 plan in 2000.

I have put my SD SA TiVo/cable plans on an indefinite hold and I am reconsidering any possible future move to a Series 3 and HD on cable. I will now likely plan to expand my DirecTiVo SD recording capacity and DirecTV channels selections and drop cable, and as far as HD is concerned, the HR10-250 is starting to look like a reasonable selection.

If I had five SA TiVos (1 Regular, 4 Multi) on a one year contract, the monthly cost would be prohibitive; even a three year contract would be somewhat unreasonable, because five DirecTiVos only cost me $25.95 per month, but that is really only $5.99 more per month, because the other $19.96 would be charged for DirecTV receivers.

So, FIVE DUAL-TUNER TIVOs actually only cost me $5.99 per month with NO CONTRACT. What a DEAL! :)

[Gai-jin]

It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.

I don't think that's the concern of most people here. I think the concern is not wanting to commit to any one solution for a period of years. So, in one very limited way, your argument has merit. However, it is being tossed around here as the solution to many issues which it doesn't begin to address.

[bicker]

How would you rate the opinion of someone with over 20 years experience analyzing business strategies particularly in the technology arena?You mean someone like me? Pretty low. Gut-feel cannot hold a candle to management based on facts.

[bicker]

So how is it that you can be so certain of one mistake, yet declare that I can't know whether another issue was a mistake or not?I can't be -- I exaggerated my level of certainty about the S3 situation. (I'm mature enough to admit it. Are you mature enough to admit your earlier exaggeration?)

As for my gut feeling vs. market research, can you show me said market research?No. And neither can you. Face it. You're just blowing smoke. You have as much right to blow smoke as anyone else, but at least be honest about what you're doing.

[bubba1972]

I did the VIP lifetime transfer to a new S3. I now have the Tivo provided prepaid year on the old S2. Does anyone know what monthly rate Tivo equates that free year at?

What will my options be at the end of the year to get the $6.95 MSD service rate on it? It obviously isn't a new box since I have had it for 4 years. Will I have to commit to a 3yr contract to get the cheaper rate that I was expecting to get at for month to month with no commitment?

[dswallow]

Researched "facts" ignore many things.

Such as perhaps the new pricing scheme, alone, results in more people willing to try the unit, but combined with the bad word of mouth from the existing subscriber base from the markedly higher pricing structure on new units, might be a net negative.

[c3]

Oh, BTW, I heard a TiVo radio ad last Saturday, 1st time in a looong time. The emphasis was "free TiVo".

[ZeoTiVo]

Oh, BTW, I heard a TiVo radio ad last Saturday, 1st time in a looong time. The emphasis was "free TiVo".

at the end of the day it boils down to getting by Christmas cheaply adn just paying monthly. So Free box and just subscribe to our service with cool extra features adn free updates to add more. That is indeed the strategy but the pricing itself puts the whole thing on more of a premium footing especially as most people talk about the 1 year price and see multiple years as just a tradeoff discount. So if I was new to TiVo I would be thinking 19.95 a month - oh well for some extra upfront cash I can at least get anotehr tuner in the box.

[borderline]

contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way? :D

It does mean something because many people don't want to commit to a "SD box" because they want to upgrade to HD in the near future. In reality, that's not what the contract means.

Yes, it has been mentioned numerous times that the contract is not tied to the box. So if you don't mind losing out on ~$200 in rebates you can purchase new hardware and transfer the service to it. Not much of a benefit since the early termination fee is at most $200.

And yes, I know there is currently no rebate available for the Series 3. But it seems to me that that is likely to change once TiVo has given a chance for all the early adopters to purchase at full price.

[Pab Sungenis]

Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"

People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.

I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.

[Gai-jin]

Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"

People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.

I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.

I'm not sure what you missed, but your numbers are all wrong.

If you buy a unit purchased retail, or a previously owned box on the shortest commitment term of 1 year, you pay 19.95, or 13.95 for msd rate. Same price as if you were getting the box subsidized in the monthly rate.

[smark]

I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.


.

[Gai-jin]

Smark -- I haven't looked at bb's site, but perhaps that's with a 2 year contract?

[Einselen]

I thought retail pricing was supposed to be in line now? I noticed Best Buy's website says $14.95 per month.

It is best buy, they are conveying incorrect information, what else is new? Sure you can get $14.95/month if you sign up for two year agreement. Makes me wonder if Best Buy is dumb or if they get incentive to sign people up for two years.

[ChuckyBox]

I can't be -- I exaggerated my level of certainty about the S3 situation. (I'm mature enough to admit it. Are you mature enough to admit your earlier exaggeration?)
I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.


No. And neither can you. Face it. You're just blowing smoke. You have as much right to blow smoke as anyone else, but at least be honest about what you're doing.
TiVo is certainly not going to show anyone the research, but the CEO has mentioned doing it, and the improved conversion rate that it produced, so it likely exists. And there were posts here and there by people who had spotted some of the test marketing of bundled plans last year around this time (or maybe a bit later). So it would be hard to deny that the research was conducted. And since the change to bundled plans online was not trival to execute, there must have been some motivation for it in terms of positive response. And now, after several months of using the bundled pricing online, they were motivated to go through an even bigger change to bring it to retail, again suggesting that it has been working for them. So, even though we can't produce it, I think denying that it exists is the unreasonable position.

On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.

[ChuckyBox]

Researched "facts" ignore many things.

Such as perhaps the new pricing scheme, alone, results in more people willing to try the unit, but combined with the bad word of mouth from the existing subscriber base from the markedly higher pricing structure on new units, might be a net negative.
It is hard to imagine a scenario in which that wasn't taken into account. And while we rant and rave about it, and some bloggers blog about it, the vast majority of the TiVo subscriber base is totally unaware of it, because it doesn't affect them, and won't unless they go to buy another unit and see the new pricing.

[HDTiVo]

contract not tied to box.

contract tied to service.

Has this been mentioned yet, by the way? :D
How many times do we have to read the same idiotic statement from you?

Sacrifice $150, $180, $220 in rebate. Can't buy a bundle unit that way. Can buy unsubsidized expensive S3, BFD.

You've read the above retorts many times from many people, but you continue to post the same nonsense.

:D

P.S. Your sig could use an update. ;)

[HDTiVo]

Smark -- I haven't looked at bb's site, but perhaps that's with a 2 year contract?
BB is just F'd up as usual.

[HDTiVo]

Okay, I've read through this thread, and I have one question.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a $1.00/month increase is "ridiculous," or "outrageous," or a "significant increase?"

People here are comparing apples to oranges. The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.

I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.

I honestly believe I need to get back into the hot tub and forget I read this.

[HDTiVo]

On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.
And there's a couple folks around here who know that they're in bed with a pig when they wake up next to one.

I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.
Oh, then bicker's wrong about everything. There was not that much wrong with the $800-.01 introductory price.

[c3]

I honestly believe I need to get back into the hot tub

Yes, please do.

[samo]

How many times do we have to read the same idiotic statement from you?

Sacrifice $150, $180, $220 in rebate. Can't buy a bundle unit that way. Can buy unsubsidized expensive S3, BFD.

You've read the above retorts many times from many people, but you continue to post the same nonsense.

As far as being idiotic or nonsense your post fits better than timckelly's. Present pricing options are very clear.
1. Free or near free hardware (after rebate) - higher monthly price/longer commitment
2. Unsubsidized hardware - keep your present plan.
You want a third option - free hardware and low sub price/short commitment. That sound moronic to me. Who's going to pay for it? TiVo did it for a while, but can not afford it anymore. Who else is going to pick the tab and why? What is wrong in paying for your DVR out of your own pocket?

[Gai-jin]

You want a third option - free hardware and low sub price/short commitment. That sound moronic to me. Who's going to pay for it? TiVo did it for a while, but can not afford it anymore. Who else is going to pick the tab and why? What is wrong in paying for your DVR out of your own pocket?

Nobody's asking for free hardware and no commitment. I want no commitment, or very low commitment, on hardware I already own outright.

Give people a choice:
Buy a box at retail, and decline the rebate. You get a short term commitment and 12.95/mo rate.

Buy box at retail, accept the rebate, current plans apply.

The decline rebate situation would also apply to any used equipment.

[tbeckner]

The $19.95 is for a bundled package with a free or discounted TiVo thrown in. If you're activating a unit from a retail outlet, or a previously owned box, it looks like the new rate is $13.95, and MSD is $7.95. And that's for the shortest commitment.

I don't think that's so unreasonable a price.NO! NO! NO!

The rate for an existing box is EXACTLY THE SAME, a one year contract is $19.95 per month. I know that because I verified it online on my account, when I went to reactivate my SVR-2000 on November 4th, see the list enclosed below which is copied directly from the web site on the Select Your Payment Plan page for my old SVR-2000 reactivation, which is where I stopped.

So much misinformation!

Monthly Options:

$19.95 / The TiVo Service Only 1 Year, Monthly
$14.95 / The TiVo Service Only 2 Year, Monthly
$12.95 / The TiVo Service Only 3 Year, Monthly

Prepay Options:

$199.00 / Service Only, 1 Year, Prepay
$299.00 / Service Only, 2 Year, Prepay
$299.00 / Service Only, 3 Year, Prepay

[tbeckner]

It is hard to imagine a scenario in which that wasn't taken into account. And while we rant and rave about it, and some bloggers blog about it, the vast majority of the TiVo subscriber base is totally unaware of it, because it doesn't affect them, and won't unless they go to buy another unit and see the new pricing.Or try to reactivate an old unit.

I when to reactivate my old SVR-2000 which I originally activated in 2000 and deactivated in 2004 after I bought my DirecTiVos, but stopped when I reached the activation screen and found the new one year rate of $19.95.

IMHO the craziest thing TiVo has ever done, especially since the SVR-2000 cost about $500 and was activated almost FOUR years, the subscription should not have jumped to pay for the hardware, which was paid for in the purchase cost and previous monthly subscription.

[dswallow]

The primary complaint is that there's no price difference between getting a free, new TiVo unit and reactivating a TiVo unit you already own or buy on the used market.

So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.

[ChuckyBox]

IMHO the craziest thing TiVo has ever done, especially since the SVR-2000 cost about $500 and was activated almost FOUR years, the subscription should not have jumped to pay for the hardware, which was paid for in the purchase cost and previous monthly subscription.
We'll see how it all works out eventually, but I would like them to offer lower pricing on "unencumbered" (i.e., SAC-recovered) boxes. If they can make money charging $12.95/month on a three-year sub (or $6.95 on three-year MSD) that includes a box, surely they can make money on a 1-year sub at that price where the box's owner is known to have fulfilled his rebate or bundle obligation.

My guess is they got this program out for the holiday selling season -- because it focuses on new hardware and new subscribers, and tries to leave existing subscribers alone, which covers probably 99% of the cases they have to worry about -- but they'll realize quickly that having people throw away hardware (that they would otherwise resubscribe) just because they can get new hardware for free for the same price is wasteful and not economically sound.

But what do I know? Maybe they have another agenda.

[ChuckyBox]

The primary complaint is that there's no price difference between getting a free, new TiVo unit and reactivating a TiVo unit you already own or buy on the used market.

So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.
Just what I was saying in my previous post that I was writing while you were posting this. Makes no sense, unless they are trying to get people to swap out old hardware. I can't see any reason for that (nor does the company really have the money for it -- they need subscribers, and (at this point anyway) nothing the new hardware does vs. the old hardware generates any money that would justify forcing such a swap). Which makes me think we might eventually see some kind of "resubscribe" option.

[ashu]

Yeah, the expectation to re-up and sweeten the pot (from TiVo's) with owned, cost-recovered old units is unreasonable.

Forced phasing out and obsoleting of aging hardware is one thing, but they went a smidgen too far!

Hopefully the outcry will convince them to self-correct ... fingers corssed!

[dstoffa]

So one may as well just keep getting a new free TiVo unit and sell the old one you'd replace on EBay to the clueless people there, or just trash it.

The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.

Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!

[Einselen]

The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.

Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!

It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.

[dswallow]

It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.
They had free TiVo units that could be obtained and added to existing accounts before? Prior to this most recent pricing change I thought the "free" units couldn't qualify for service only until the commitment period agreed to up front was over (i.e.; there were package prices including hardware that were separate from other hardware you could buy at retail and just pay service on).

[samo]

We'll see how it all works out eventually, but I would like them to offer lower pricing on "unencumbered" (i.e., SAC-recovered) boxes. If they can make money charging $12.95/month on a three-year sub (or $6.95 on three-year MSD) that includes a box, surely they can make money on a 1-year sub at that price where the box's owner is known to have fulfilled his rebate or bundle obligation.
I'm almost willing to bet that people who will call to re-activate old boxes will get some kind of deal. It is not a secret that people who called to cancel a sub quite often get $6.95/month deal as an incentive not to cancel. When I called to cancel my 2 SA units, I could have a deal that probably nobody on this board was offered. After about half an hour on the phone (guy was so nice I didn't have guts to cut him short) TiVo CSR told me that because I'm one of the first 10,000 TiVo customers, I can have both of my units for $6.95/month. I was flattered, but had to tell him "no deal" - I really don't have any use for SA Tivos. So I'm sure that on case by case basis TiVo will accommodate unusual situations.

[Einselen]

They had free TiVo units that could be obtained and added to existing accounts before? Prior to this most recent pricing change I thought the "free" units couldn't qualify for service only until the commitment period agreed to up front was over (i.e.; there were package prices including hardware that were separate from other hardware you could buy at retail and just pay service on).

You could find some good deals if you wanted to in order to get the Tivos at those lower prices. It wasn't standard and simple, but not too complex to find either.

[Gai-jin]

It used to be like that. A person could buy a new MSD tivo and a year service for $83.40 each year. Now if someone is to do that then they have to pay over twice that much or $167.40 for a new Tivo each year and MSD. The new pricing plan helps deter people from trying to just get a new Tivo each year.


How do you figure? If you bought a bundle before, you didn't get msd rate. If you bought retail, the rebate didn't cover full cost of the tivo.

[Einselen]

How do you figure? If you bought a bundle before, you didn't get msd rate. If you bought retail, the rebate didn't cover full cost of the tivo.

There have been multiple offers in which there was a retailer rebate (compusa, circuit city, best buy) which did make the box FAR. There have also been multiple offers where you could buy a 80 hr ST for $83.40 for one year of service. Both I have seen for awhile more so the first, but then within the past 3 months or even longer the second.

[c3]

Nobody's asking for free hardware and no commitment. I want no commitment, or very low commitment, on hardware I already own outright.

Give people a choice:
Buy a box at retail, and decline the rebate. You get a short term commitment and 12.95/mo rate.

Buy box at retail, accept the rebate, current plans apply.

The decline rebate situation would also apply to any used equipment.

I actually agree with everything you said there. :) That's one hole that TiVo needs to patch.

[Gai-jin]

I actually agree with everything you said there. :) That's one hole that TiVo needs to patch.

:eek:

Seriously, if there was an option to re-activate an existing box* without being forced to help subsidize someone else's free tivo, I'd be much less upset about these new plans.

*This would have to include a way to purchase a new box outright w/o rebate, or received through tivo rewards.


(As it stands, the value of 25000 tivo rewards points is exactly $69.99, or the difference between a free S2 tivo and a S2DT tivo when buying the bundle.)

[bicker]

Researched "facts" ignore many things.Anything is possible. However, the main advantage of facts is that they tend to help folks make better decisions, by comparison to decisions made by guessing.

[bicker]

I thought you were talking about the shipping debacle. It would be hard to view that as anything but a mistake.It wasn't what I had in mind, actually, but it is a great example, and in reality it must have been a mistake, based on nothing other than TiVo's acknowledgement that it was a mistake.

TiVo is certainly not going to show anyone the research, but the CEO has mentioned doing it, and the improved conversion rate that it produced, so it likely exists. And there were posts here and there by people who had spotted some of the test marketing of bundled plans last year around this time (or maybe a bit later). So it would be hard to deny that the research was conducted. And since the change to bundled plans online was not trival to execute, there must have been some motivation for it in terms of positive response. And now, after several months of using the bundled pricing online, they were motivated to go through an even bigger change to bring it to retail, again suggesting that it has been working for them. So, even though we can't produce it, I think denying that it exists is the unreasonable position. On the flip side, there is a tendency among some here to assume that because they don't like something, it is bad or wrong.
Absolutely. Very well said!

[timckelley]

The disposable society in which we live... It's a shame, really.

Get a new Tivo every year! Get a hard drive for use in your old PC!

The exception being, of course, us lifetimers who have incentive to hold on to our lifetime boxes. :cool: