Fall 2006 Pricing Changes - FAQ

[BlackBetty]

if churn rates are so low, why the heck is TiVo throwing in all these stipulations? I have a family member asking me what the best deal is for a S2 DT TiVo and I have no idea how to answer her. 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr commitments, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, monthly payments. COME ON TIVO!!!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!

Are you trying to scare away potential customers? If so, its working.

[c3]

1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr commitments, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, monthly payments.

That's simple. 3-year prepay.

[Tiggerdrh]

IMHO It doesn't make sense to do a 3 year prepay. You have no idea what the cable companies are going to roll out in the next two years or given the latest headlines how TiVo will even be faring financially. I can see one year prepay, maybe 2 year committment, but if there's no lifetime option I see no sense in signing up for a 3 year contract. I wouldn't even sign that with my cellphone company and I've been with them for 4 years now.

[dswallow]

IMHO It doesn't make sense to do a 3 year prepay. You have no idea what the cable companies are going to roll out in the next two years or given the latest headlines how TiVo will even be faring financially. I can see one year prepay, maybe 2 year committment, but if there's no lifetime option I see no sense in signing up for a 3 year contract. I wouldn't even sign that with my cellphone company and I've been with them for 4 years now.
When the pricing differences are as out of whack as TiVo's currently are, a 3-year prepay makes financial sense simply because of the price differences with lesser commitments or prepay periods.

If a 3-year prepay costs less than 16 months of monthly service on 1-year commitments, you need to completely put the 2-year term out of your mind and think in terms of a payoff in only 16 months.

[samo]

When the pricing differences are as out of whack as TiVo's currently are, a 3-year prepay makes financial sense simply because of the price differences with lesser commitments or prepay periods.

If a 3-year prepay costs less than 16 months of monthly service on 1-year commitments, you need to completely put the 2-year term out of your mind and think in terms of a payoff in only 16 months.
Or you can think in terms that $300 will buy you disposable DVR that will work for up to 3 years.

[HDTiVo]

Did someone forget 3yr prepay is the same price as 2yr prepay?

[dswallow]

Did someone forget 3yr prepay is the same price as 2yr prepay?
While that's true right now, it will be slightly higher at some point in the future, probably post-holiday season. Right now TiVo just wants to up their balance sheet by being able to show higher numbers 3 years out.

[Tiggerdrh]

I'm still not sure 3 years makes any sense. It's cheaper in the long run, but say you go with that plan on a current box (for me s2)..My box would be 4 years old at that point and I'm quite sure I'd want to upgrade before the end of that time period. I could transfer the service to another box, but then I probably wouldn't get any rebates on a new box.

[HDTiVo]

While that's true right now, it will be slightly higher at some point in the future, probably post-holiday season. Right now TiVo just wants to up their balance sheet by being able to show higher numbers 3 years out.
But will 2yr come down or 3yr go up, or some other permutation? :confused:

TiVo needs the 3yr cash because they are bleeding like crazy despite the fact that they said everything was just fine 6 months ago, followed by a stock offering 3 months later. :rolleyes:

They want cash on the balance sheet and to say 'hey, we've got all these 3yr commits' while claiming their value is higher than before, without commiting to a NPV number or showing how they are more valuable than the increase in SAC it took to get them. :down:

[dswallow]

But will 2yr come down or 3yr go up, or some other permutation?
If you look closely at TiVo's site (well, it doesn't need to be too close, it's pretty much everywhere pricing is mentioned, like http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR) you'll see 3-year is going to be $349.

[HDTiVo]

If you look closely at TiVo's site (well, it doesn't need to be too close, it's pretty much everywhere pricing is mentioned, like http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series280hrDTDVR) you'll see 3-year is going to be $349.
Yes, I know about that, but my actual point is I have no idea what they might really do...and I doubt they have decided either. After all, they are using their most important selling season to experiment with pricing and figure out what to do next year. Does that sound like a company that knows what it is doing or has piles of research data to support their decisions?

[BobCamp1]

Or you can think in terms that $300 will buy you disposable DVR that will work for up to 3 years.

My video camera is $300. It's not disposable. If you think $300 is disposable, the next you want to dispose of it just send it to me instead.

Or you can think in terms that on top of $700 for an S3, you find out later that you have to pay an additional $300 for service, and even more three years from now. And then you find out that "service" does not include a full three-year warranty. And that the box is not fully compatible with your cable service, and may even be less so in the future.

Tivo's problem isn't their pricing scheme, or that they had two rate hikes in the past 12 months. Tivo is simply in a market where there is no money to be made. If they couldn't make money when there was no competition, how are they going to make money now?

And if they need the cash so bad, they should settle the Echostar lawsuit already!

[bicker]

Tivo's problem isn't their pricing scheme, or that they had two rate hikes in the past 12 months. Tivo is simply in a market where there is no money to be made. If they couldn't make money when there was no competition, how are they going to make money now?You're absolultely on-target.

[HDTiVo]

You're absolultely on-target.
I thought you didn't know anything about anything? How can you know that? You have no research or models or real world tests to tell you that. You cannot know that because you are not TiVo - which is all knowing. ;)

Blowing smoke? :D

[beady]

I currently have a S2 DT at $12.95 month to month that I purchased back in July. I then added an S3 in October which is being billed at $6.95 a month. When the S2 is up I'll probably want to get rid of it. What will happen to my S3? Since it is no longer eligible for the MSD will it go to $12.95 month to month or will I have to go on some sort of commitment plan? Is there anyway I can switch the billing before canceling the S2 so that the S3 is the $12.95 unit and the S2 is the MSD unit?

I spoke to a TIVO CSR and they said they can't just switch the billing because it would involve canceling the account that is still within the commitment period. He did say that if I purchase another Series 3 before the DT expires I can transfer the $12.95 a month price to the new box. We'll see if that is true?

Are the MSD boxes considered a year commitment or are they month to month? I wonder if I can transfer the $12.95 to the Series 3 and then just cancel the DT. It's pretty sad when your subscription to your TV recording service is so complicated.

[timckelley]

It's pretty sad when your subscription to your TV recording service is so complicated.That's what I think.

[bicker]

I thought you didn't know anything about anything?I don't remember exactly but what I probably said was that you didn't know anything about anything. Regardless, BobCamp1's message was well-written, and indicated a clear understanding of the situation, without falling back on what he necessarily wanted to be true.

[HDTiVo]

I don't remember exactly but what I probably said was that you didn't know anything about anything. Regardless, BobCamp1's message was well-written, and indicated a clear understanding of the situation, without falling back on what he necessarily wanted to be true.
I think you said or implied that based on the fact that you know nothing, I must therefore know nothing.

At least when you say you know nothing and are just blowing smoke you are honest. Today you are full of crap. ;)

[samo]

I think you said or implied that based on the fact that you know nothing, I must therefore know nothing.

At least when you say you know nothing and are just blowing smoke you are honest. Today you are full of crap. ;)
Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.
The question was two-fold "Can money be made in SA DVR market? " and "Can TiVo make money in SA DVR market?". The answer to both is conditional yes - if Tivo was owned by individual who cared about business. Even last quarter could have been profitable if waste was eliminated. For example $4 mils out of $11 mils loss was stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago. To contrast that - Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable. $10 mils for sales and marketing considering lousy performance is ridiculous. I would cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years. I would shave at least 40% of administrative cost and R&D cost. All these new features that TiVo is developing are made to create hype for next quarterly report, but do not help bottom line at all. Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas. Again, this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures. It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years. And I don't know what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth. TiVo never had large churn rate. There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more.

[ChuckyBox]

Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable.

Holding Charlie Ergen out as a paragon of corporate virtue is like praising a rattlesnake for not eating its own children. The man is arguably one of the most unethical businessmen, if not human beings, in our society. That you seem to admire him depresses me and makes me seriously question your judgment and personal values.

As for your other comments, I agree with some, disagree with others, but don't want to argue about any of them. Mostly because we've already covered most of that ground.

[samo]

Holding Charlie Ergen out as a paragon of corporate virtue is like praising a rattlesnake for not eating its own children. The man is arguably one of the most unethical businessmen, if not human beings, in our society. That you seem to admire him depresses me and makes me seriously question your judgment and personal values.

Yes, I have to admit, I do admire self-made billionaires. And I wish I had what it takes to become one. I do not have any respect for WASP boys club CEO's who's only purpose is to steal money from the company that they are paid to run. Perfect example of that is HP. After Hewlett and Packard died the company and company spirit were essentially destroyed by greedy bastards on the board of directors.

[ashu]

Hey, samo, check these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph) out. Very underrated, but they certainly enhance readability.

It took me a while to find your post praising Charlie after reading Chucky's opinion and the quoted subsection. Just a simple observation. You make (some) good points, but they're lost within that sea of characters that most people tend to gloss over, like I did!

[HDTiVo]

Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.
If that is so, then where's the rest of your post coming from?

[samo]

If that is so, then where's the rest of your post coming from?
Numbers from SEC filings. (Paragraph)

The rest from the experience gambling on stock market for last 10 years, observation of dot.com type companies behavior, and most importantly from the fact that I had nothing better to do at a time I composed that post.( Paragraph)

Just like now when I'm composing the answer. :)

[ChuckyBox]

Yes, I have to admit, I do admire self-made billionaires. And I wish I had what it takes to become one.
Saddam Hussein achieved it through torture, murder, and genocide. Maybe you could try that route. I mean, money's the only thing, right?

[samo]

So to who you going to compare Charlie next? Hitler? Stalin? Chucky you are smarter than that. Certainly none of the super rich people is a saint. They wouldn't be rich if they were angels. They would be living paycheck to paycheck just like you do. All I know that people like Charlie could not accumulate 3 orders of magnitude more than I am by being stupid. To me it is enough to admire their accomplishments. And yes, I'm not Mother Teresa myself.

[bicker]

There starts another philosophical argument: Shouldn't there be laws requiring transparency in all monetary transactions? If there were, nothing could take place "under the table", there couldn't be any hidden deals or misappropriation without visibility, etc.

[ChuckyBox]

So to who you going to compare Charlie next? Hitler? Stalin?

I assume you mean to invoke Godwin's law here, and I wll certainly give you that (though my comparison is not to Charlie, but to your expressed moral standards). But this requires me to introduce Chucky's Corollary to Godwin's Law:


Reductio ad absurdum often requires Nazis.


That aside, I don't expect the super rich to be saints any more than I expect any human to be a saint (including, ironically, the saints). But I don't believe that stealing from those weaker than oneself or those unable to defend their property because of your power to abuse the legal system is a legitmate path to wealth. Just as I don't believe murder, torture, or genocide are, though they are certanly immoral to different degrees. I realize this position probably puts me in the minority in our "anything for a buck" culture, but I can live with that.

All I know that people like Charlie could not accumulate 3 orders of magnitude more than I am by being stupid.
You are equating "not stupid" with "unethical." That path leads to the justification of any action whatsoever.

To me it is enough to admire their accomplishments.
I know it is. Regardless of how they reached those accomplishments. And that brings us right back to Saddam Hussein.

[ChuckyBox]

There starts another philosophical argument: Shouldn't there be laws requiring transparency in all monetary transactions? If there were, nothing could take place "under the table", there couldn't be any hidden deals or misappropriation without visibility, etc.
Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.

[HDTiVo]

Numbers from SEC filings. (Paragraph)

The rest from the experience gambling on stock market for last 10 years, observation of dot.com type companies behavior, and most importantly from the fact that I had nothing better to do at a time I composed that post.( Paragraph)

Just like now when I'm composing the answer. :)

So the SEC fillings include statements like:

"stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago"

"cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years"

"Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas"

"this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures"

"It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years"

"what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth"

"There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more"

I am just commenting on the absurd inconsistency of the same person writing that and saying "Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company." and calling me childish in the same context.

As far as your analysis, its in the ballpark, but not on the money. :cool:

Nice to know you have some experience. Maybe somebody else does too. ;)


Childish. Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company.
The question was two-fold "Can money be made in SA DVR market? " and "Can TiVo make money in SA DVR market?". The answer to both is conditional yes - if Tivo was owned by individual who cared about business. Even last quarter could have been profitable if waste was eliminated. For example $4 mils out of $11 mils loss was stock based compensation mostly to board of directors that conveniently wrote in performance bonus about half a year ago. To contrast that - Charlie Ergen (founder and 51% owner of E* ) did not sell a single share of the company and did not write himself bonuses till company became profitable. $10 mils for sales and marketing considering lousy performance is ridiculous. I would cut in half marketing cost and get rid of all the geniuses who could not market superior product for 8 years. I would shave at least 40% of administrative cost and R&D cost. All these new features that TiVo is developing are made to create hype for next quarterly report, but do not help bottom line at all. Free hardware in exchange for commitment is a stupid idea borrowed by incompetent marketers from cell phone model because they don't have a shred of intelligence to come up with their own ideas. Again, this idea mostly driven by need to hype Wall Street with growth figures. It doesn't do any good to the company to sell at loss just to increase number of sales contracts. It just delays admission of incompetence by few years. And I don't know what moron came up with an idea of commitment regardless of rebates, but that is what killing subscription growth. TiVo never had large churn rate. There is no need to force commitment on TiVo customers except for hyping Wall Street so you can sell your stock options bonuses for more.

[Gai-jin]

Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.

Good to see this thread has stayed on topic... :)

[samo]

I am just commenting on the absurd inconsistency of the same person writing that and saying "Nobody here knows anything more than reported by the company." and calling me childish in the same context.


Apology for childish, didn't mean to offend you. But if you read SEC fillings (like 8K 4/4/2006 about bonuses to executives), look at numbers on financial statements, and connect the dots between timing of announcements and sale of securities by board of directors, you couldn't help but to notice that TiVo executives may not have the best interest of the company in mind when they make their decisions.

[HDTiVo]

Apology for childish, didn't mean to offend you. But if you read SEC fillings (like 8K 4/4/2006 about bonuses to executives), look at numbers on financial statements, and connect the dots between timing of announcements and sale of securities by board of directors, you couldn't help but to notice that TiVo executives may not have the best interest of the company in mind when they make their decisions.
OK

[STTF]

Unfortunately, complete transparency undercuts many legitimate competitive advantages, so we have to strike a balance between transparency and privileged information. And that has led to things like these options scandals, Enron, and Charlie Ergen.

Yes, and the system can handle some privileged information provided that there is an incentive not to defraud or abuse it - including criminal liability if necessary.

[Justin Thyme]

It's a matter of perspective I suppose. If folks really don't like the new plans tivo can go back to the old way. I don't have much besides anecdotal evidence that indicates this imbroglio about rates means nothing to the folks I run into that don't have Tivos. They didn't have any history or expectations and just look at it different. I tried to get myself into the mental space and yeah, I had to buy a new Tivo and thought about it.

Anyhow, our family has gotten rather ginormous and unwieldy with third cousins sleeping on the couch and what not so we have outgrown our house/ fleeing the relatives camped out at our old house so I had to look at buying some new Tivos. I was a little annoyed about how many choices there are in the new fee structure but to get it in perspective, I looked at the cost per month and that is what folks pay for text messaging. I know some folks are addicted to texting, but jeez, any kind of volume of text you have to pay $10 or $20 per month per phone for it. But $12.95 is off the charts exhorbitant for Video services?

Well what the heck. Ok, say I go into economy mode. I had earthlink broadband installed at the new dacha. That comes in on the local cable company wire so now lo and behold I've got 80 analog channels on a dual tuner. I ask around and everyone has got a story to they know their "neighbor" gets analog cable for free. Ok so I could have paid $70 for the Dual Tuner after rebate at BestBuy. Not exactly a huge deal for anyone at Christmas.

I can transfer plans so I sign up for 3 years and so even if I change it to some better box in the future I'm not out any money, and I am paying what was it- $8.95 per month? I think that's what it was because it is the multiple unit whatever the heck the acronym was.

Seems like it's pretty darn worth it to me. Would I want a Cableco DVR? Well even if I knew nothing about about the two the answer would have to be No. For the local company DVR, it would cost me $11 extra for digital plus $9.95 for the box. $21 plus a bunch of piddly access charges etc. That is a better deal?

The Filipino lady at the service station looked at my Tivo credit card and she double taked and said the family was thinking about getting one for Christmas. I told her the normal deal about how it changes the way you think about TV, and she grooved and her eyes were sparkling about something- I dunno- maybe she was thinking about not missing any of ther favorite soaps. Whatever. So she was off in this fairy land and she asks about how much it costs and I told her I was going to do the 3 year thing monthly thing for $8.95* and she like drew back- like wow that's a long time. Then something funny happened.

I said- well you could pay $19.95 a month and the plan would be only a year. And the wierdest thing- she was back to all smiles after that. It's like I told her there is a Santa after all.

So I dunno- it's not the way I think about money and commitments, but I just see that different folks are comfortable with things that make no sense to me.



*Actually I should have told her it would have been $12.95 for her because she would not be on the Multiple whatever thingamajig- but with her thinking it was $8.95 she still saw red.

[c3]

I can transfer plans so I sign up for 3 years and so even if I change it to some better box in the future I'm not out any money, and I am paying what was it- $8.95 per month? I think that's what it was because it is the multiple unit whatever the heck the acronym was.

Anybody can get 3 years for $299. That's not the MSD (multi service discount) rate, which is $6.95/month with 3-year contract.

[Justin Thyme]

Yeah. I was unaware of the pay up front for 3, get one year free thing. Big numbers scared the crap out of her anyway, so that would probably been as bad as my talk of low monthly but commitment for 3.

Anyway- don't know where $8.95 came from- the 2 year rate got stuck in my head I guess. I just can't keep bean counter stuff in my head very long. I do remember what !F666G does on an Apple ][ does though, and I suppose that's much less relevant than the Tivo blizzard of numbers that resemble batting averages or something. Ok Ok. So really I am paying $6.95 per month on that DT. Anyhow, I told her wrong but the point was that over half the price and the long commitment totally freaked her.

My guess was that since she didn't know about whether or not all this stuff she had heard about Tivo was true, she didn't want to sign up for a long hitch. That's not so surprising I suppose.

It was her reaction to the $19.95- I thought sure that was going to make her feel worse. I thought $20 was a pretty big hill, but maybe folks just look at it as an amount that is in the discretionary range.

Kind of the Starbucks thing about $5 coffee I guess. I was saying to folks in Seattle- who but the coffeehouse college student crowd is going to pay that kind of money- especially when they are making $10 per hour. How will starbucks ever make any real money- and it's not like competitors can't just copy exactly what they are doing. My friends response was, Yeah but look at the customers. They love it. Well ok. But it seemed like a silly pitch to me.

Anyway, service station attendant is a different kind of Tivo user. That's not from the typical wierd hodge podge of quirky folks that have shown up here in the past- the latest and greatest biggest and best/ linux anarchist/ Mac user-elegant thing/ technology talk in hex enthusiast/ scrounge for the best deal/ Mod it a la Tootime kind of typical customer. Maybe we are dinosaurs. Well, I suppose that is ok. I can answer questions about codecs for those that are having a hard time play converting free video off the net for play on their non HD Tivos.

[HDTiVo]

Why didn't you take the TiVoes with you when you moved out? That would have cleaned up the refugee situation.

[bicker]

It's a matter of perspective I suppose. If folks really don't like the new plans tivo can go back to the old way.Maybe not. Maybe the old was wasn't working -- so badly -- that either this way works, or there isn't any reason to continue.

[iceman]

My guess was that since she didn't know about whether or not all this stuff she had heard about Tivo was true, she didn't want to sign up for a long hitch. That's not so surprising I suppose.

Should have told her about the 30 day Money Back Guarantee!

[Justin Thyme]

Why didn't you take the TiVoes with you when you moved out? That would have cleaned up the refugee situation. They love their Tivos and will pay or do anything to keep them.

The following comments not directed to you HD- that is indirectly my response to those who clearly do not believe in the potential of third party DVRs such as Tivo. Such assessments are fundamentally unprovable so what's the point. Someone either shares the vision and does something about it or they don't. No way could I prove to my bosses in the late 70s that microcomputers were revolutionairy tools for a corporation. They said they would ask the IBM rep what they thought. Needless to say, I left that company and worked in the microcomputer field. I was "throwing my career away", and these were nickel and dime garage operations that weren't making any money etc. and if they ever did hit on something then IBM would just crush them anyway.

I have run into that sort of skepticism endlessly in my career. It's an old story. Naval air power makes Battleships obsolete. "No it aren't", "yes they are", "no they can't", "yes they can". They are made of paper, not steel and so on and so forth.

Pointless trying to prove the unprovable. Status quo arguments generally win, so go right ahead. Do the sensible thing.

[volswagn]

Yes, I would hate to have a new contract if I just turned off my 4th DVR for 6 months and have to be subject to a 1 year contract and a higher fee structure, even if it's the SAME account. Now That SUCKS!!

That is exactly the situation I found myself in tonight. Dropped Tivo in the bedroom and instead tried the Cablevision DVR for a year or so at $14.95 a month. Returned it a few weeks ago and went to restart my S2 140-hour tonight. Found the new pricing.

Decided I'll be doing all my recording in the living room from now on. This sucks.

[iceman]

That is exactly the situation I found myself in tonight.

Well, not exactly. You could face the same fee structure if you were willing to commit for 3 years... and even if you only committed for 1 year, you'd still pay a dollar less a month than you were paying for the CableVision DVR...

Of course, you could try to argue with TiVo that you should get the old rate, based on TivoPony's post, although I don't think that's been interpreted that way:

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

[volswagn]

Well, not exactly. You could face the same fee structure if you were willing to commit for 3 years... and even if you only committed for 1 year, you'd still pay a dollar less a month than you were paying for the CableVision DVR...

Of course, you could try to argue with TiVo that you should get the old rate, based on TivoPony's post, although I don't think that's been interpreted that way:

#1) Yearly committment is a dealbreaker. The only company that I deal with right now that makes me commit to a year of service is my cellphone company. I have been with them for seven years now, and I know that the technology is not likely to change that much year-to-year for what I use it for (just telephone calls). I have no idea what technology I'll want in six month's time.

#2) As for the old rate, I find it interesting that TivoPony hasn't responded to this or any question here so many responses later... What if we DO own the equipment already?

[ChuckyBox]

#1) Yearly committment is a dealbreaker.
Then you won't be getting TiVo service. To initiate or reactivate service you are required to commit to a minimum 1-year contract. That has been the policy for more than a year now.

Based on what you've said, you're going to have to find a non-TiVo solution to your DVR needs. Sorry.

[volswagn]

Then you won't be getting TiVo service. To initiate or reactivate service you are required to commit to a minimum 1-year contract. That has been the policy for more than a year now.

Based on what you've said, you're going to have to find a non-TiVo solution to your DVR needs. Sorry.

Guess it's finally time to make my own MythTV or Slipstream box. I've got some hardware laying around that I'm not using. I can't wait to see what happens to Tivo. In looking around for alternatives I've been reading quite a few PVR blogs in the last 24 hours. Can't believe how many people are irritated at the new pricing. Inevitably someone comes along and makes a 2-page post trying to explain how the new pricing scheme is actually BETTER and SIMPLER than the old one.

Folks, if it takes you two pages to rebutt gut reactions to your new pricing scheme, something is wrong... So long, Tivo...

[bicker]

There actually is no way to know how many people are actually "irritated at the new pricing." The Internet is like those passenger-side rear-view mirrors -- though in the case of the Internet it is more like "Objects appear bigger than they really are." I suspect that they did hurt themselves with this pricing, but (1) that's a guess and no one's guess here on TFC is worth more than a used piece of chewing gum, and (2) they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else.

[ashu]

Guess it's finally time to make my own MythTV or Slipstream box.

Good luck with that. Even for admitted/self-professed tech geks, that proves to be way more work than it's worth. I watch and delete shows, perhaps if I felt a dire need to archive HD quality stuff I might reconsider it ... but not until encrypted channels can be tuned on a PC :)

[volswagn]

Good luck with that. Even for admitted/self-professed tech geks, that proves to be way more work than it's worth. I watch and delete shows, perhaps if I felt a dire need to archive HD quality stuff I might reconsider it ... but not until encrypted channels can be tuned on a PC :)

I'm down to basic cable anyway. I just want basic recording capability. Nothing fancy. That's why I'm amazed that Tivo won't take my money. I'm willing to give them $20 a month as long as they won't stick me to a contract, but they don't want it.

I just checked their latest SEC filing and I see they're still bleeding millions. Never turned a profit. I wonder why? With asinine stunts like this, it's easy to see. Imagine that. They're a household name and they can't turn a profit.

Latest filing also says that this latest pricing scheme will be reviewed in the next quarter to see how successful it was and that things might be adjusted. I have a feeling they're going to have to.

Their new subscription enrollment was also down in the third quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago. Not a good sign. Combined with these latest moves, I wonder how this quarter will go? The holidays will probably help, but I can't wait to see how this year compares to fourth quarter last year.

[volswagn]

I suspect that they did hurt themselves with this pricing, but (1) that's a guess and no one's guess here on TFC is worth more than a used piece of chewing gum, and (2) they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else.

We won't have to guess. Let's check back in with each other after the 2006 4th quarter filing comes out and see how it compares to last year at this time, eh?

No need to guess at all. I could eat crow at that time, but for some reason I don't think so...

[dswallow]

We won't have to guess. Let's check back in with each other after the 2006 4th quarter filing comes out and see how it compares to last year at this time, eh?

No need to guess at all. I could eat crow at that time, but for some reason I don't think so...
It's not unheard of for corporate executives to manipulate things to paint rosy pictures to investors while the business is actually crumbling.

Think of WorldCom. Or Enron. Or any of thousands of other companies that are small enough not to get national attention when they fall apart.

[bicker]

Unfortunately, there is no way to "know" for sure, because we cannot go back and run reality the other way, and see how things worked out. As I indicated, "they may not have had any choice -- the old pricing might have been providing too small of a return, and so they had to try something else." If that is the case, then they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't -- a no-win situation. That's actually my "most likely scenario." I don't believe there is a sufficiently profitable market for customer-owned DVRs in the United States.

[ChuckyBox]

I just checked their latest SEC filing and I see they're still bleeding millions. Never turned a profit. I wonder why? With asinine stunts like this, it's easy to see. Imagine that. They're a household name and they can't turn a profit.
That didn't take long. Bullwinkle strikes again. I'd like to say I am surprised, but that would be lying.


Their new subscription enrollment was also down in the third quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago.

Wrong. New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. Net subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base. If you need a lesson in holding back the tide of churn, have a look at DirecTV's or Echostar's net versus gross adds.


The holidays will probably help, but I can't wait to see how this year compares to fourth quarter last year.
They've said that gross subscription additions will be less. Not only because of the subscription price increase, but because of a general hardware price increase (40% on their front-line SKU). But this was a deliberate, conscious choice the company has made -- apparently to garner "higher-value" subscribers. It is unclear what internal metrics they used to make this decision (though it is likely something to do with the churn rate of subs acquired at different price points), but it is pretty clear that whatever they found has caused them to reject what Wall Streets wants to see (higher subscription growth) in favor of another value metric.

[volswagn]

New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. Net subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base.
I stand corrected.

They've said that gross subscription additions will be less. Not only because of the subscription price increase, but because of a general hardware price increase (40% on their front-line SKU). But this was a deliberate, conscious choice the company has made -- apparently to garner "higher-value" subscribers. It is unclear what internal metrics they used to make this decision (though it is likely something to do with the churn rate of subs acquired at different price points), but it is pretty clear that whatever they found has caused them to reject what Wall Streets wants to see (higher subscription growth) in favor of another value metric.
Volkswagen made a deliberate, conscious choice to garner "higher-value" customers when it introduced the Phaeton. Not three years later, that model was cancelled in the US and VW started offering a new "Rabbit" for the first time in over two decades.

Good luck, Tivo. I'd like to know what your stockholders think of you turning away customers like myself who would like to give you $20 a month (but don't want a commitment).

As I said, I'm eagerly awaiting their Q4 2006 announcement.

[ChuckyBox]

Volkswagen made a deliberate, conscious choice to garner "higher-value" customers when it introduced the Phaeton.
So did Toyota when it introduced Lexus. How did that work out?

[volswagn]

So did Toyota when it introduced Lexus. How did that work out?

Different brand entirely. VW was trying to bring ITS OWN brand upscale with disasterous results.

If that's what Tivo is really trying to do with it's own product (and its own brand name), we'll see how it works out.

The obvious key to Tivo's future success with attempts to "move upscale" will be its add-on offerings like the Kids thing (whatever it is -- they didn't have it when I was a subscriber) and the ability to forward movies to family, partnerships with networks for downloadable content and things like that. If they can offer these as "get the real Tivo because it can do these things that your cable company's DVR can't," then they might be able to do it. These are the things I can see "upscale customers" spending for. People like me who are happy to just record & watch regular TV shows and who don't need the extras (I download shows off USENET when I miss them with the cable company's DVR), won't buy into it.

From the ads I've seen, they aren't really pushing these... They're just saying if it ain't Tivo, it ain't Tivo.

But what do I know. I'm not a marketing exec. We should just trust them I guess. :)

[HDTiVo]

I see the TiVo Troll has returned.

[samo]

Wrong. New subscriptions were up YoY by 10%. Net subscription additions were down very slightly, due to a similar rate of churn on a significantly larger subscriber base. If you need a lesson in holding back the tide of churn, have a look at DirecTV's or Echostar's net versus gross adds.

Actually REAL churn rate for TiVo went down from last year (probably due to mandatory 1 year commitment that was introduced about a year ago). Here the calculations for REAL churn (accounting for the fact that lifetimers don't cancel the service).
Q32006 total subs 1625, 45% lifetime/55% recurring 894K recurring / 731K life
Q22006 total subs 1572, 47% lifetime/53% recurring 833K recurring /738K life
Number of lifetimes is down by 7K so churn for lifetime subs is 0.3% (or 4% per year)
That makes recurring subs loss 41K and churn rate of 1.53% (or 18% per year) on recurring subs.
If you compare this number with a same time a year ago:
Q32005 total subs 1308K, 51% recurring or 667K
Q22005 total subs 1253K, 51% recurring or 639K
With 37K subs loss churn rate same time last year was 1.85% (or 22% per year)
Interestingly enough, churn rate for DirecTiVo in Q32006 was only 0.44%.
It seems to be a strong correlation between monthly sub charge and churn rates.
PS. Chucky, feel free to tear apart my numbers as you always do. :)

[ChuckyBox]

PS. Chucky, feel free to tear apart my numbers as you always do. :)
Well, only because you asked nicely...

Actually, I think what you are trying to do is a valid approach. I don't think it pertains to the point I was making, which was a gross vs. net argument, but I agree that there is a difference between the lifetime and recurring subs' churn rates.

I think the main problem with your analysis is that the "% of TiVo-Owned Cumulative Subscriptions paying recurring fees" number from TiVo is given in full percentage points against a large number (total subscriptions), and then you apply it to a small number (churn). 55% means: 54.5% <= X < 55.5% (assuming TiVo doesn't use another rounding convention). When applied to ~1.6 million, that percentage point range means a range of 16,000 out of the 48,000 total churn (a somewhat rounded number itself).

If you run this range through your calculation, it gives numbers from 1.17% to 1.80% for recurring sub churn. I think we will be able to get closer to the real number eventually, but it might take a couple more quarters before we can narrow the error bars.

Also, I'm not sure how you got 1.85% for last year's churn since TiVo was still adding lifetime subs back then. Did you use the lifetime churn percentage you got for the most recent quarter and apply it to last year, assuming that it hasn't changed much?

A final nitpick: to calculate churn in a manner that is consistent with the way TiVo does it, you should use the average subs per quarter, not the end-of-quarter cumulative number.

[samo]

Also, I'm not sure how you got 1.85% for last year's churn since TiVo was still adding lifetime subs back then. Did you use the lifetime churn percentage you got for the most recent quarter and apply it to last year, assuming that it hasn't changed much?

Actually I just ignored lifetimes (mistake on my part). Using your suggestion and assuming that lifetime churn percentage is a same as last quarter makes churn rate for the last year almost a same (1.55%) as this year. Here goes my conclusion that churn is down. :) You are also absolutely right about round-off error. So for practical purpose there is no evidence of either positive or negative effect of mandatory commitment.

[c3]

How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?

[dswallow]

How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?
Creatively. :)

I believe it's been said that lifetime units need to connect to TiVo periodically in order for the unit to remain on TiVo's records as an active unit and thus qualifying the account for multi-service discounts on any other units owned. Maybe those that don't maintain that communication and are dropped are what TiVo considers "churn." Ostensibly it's to account for units that die and can no longer function, since lifetime is associated with the unit.

[ChuckyBox]

How do you churn lifetime? Lifetime units taken out of service?


We offer a product lifetime subscription for general sale, under which consumers could purchase a subscription that is valid for the lifetime of a particular DVR. We have announced our intention to eliminate the product lifetime service option. We count these as subscriptions until both of the following conditions are met: (i) the four-year period we use to recognize lifetime subscription revenues ends, and (ii) the related DVR has not made contact to the TiVo service within the prior six-month period. Lifetime subscriptions past the four-year mark which have not called into the TiVo service for six-months are not counted in this total.
.

[Adam1115]

I'm trying to figure out how much it's going to cost to get a second TiVo, but apparently that is a very complicated question!! From this thread:

Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
A. This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

But from tivo, http://www.tivo.com/2.9.9.asp#7

Are TiVo Packages eligible for a Multi-Service Discount?
As of March 13, 2006, TiVo Package purchases are not eligible for our Multi-Service Discount. If you have a box that you purchased either through tivo.com prior to March 13, 2006 or in a retail store location, AND it is on the same account as up to 4 other TiVo boxes in your network, you are eligible for Multi-Service Discount for that box. See full terms and conditions for the Multi-Service Discount for more information.

So what, do I need to buy one off ebay to pay $6.95/mo? Is there a discount for MSD on the prepaid plans? If I prepay for 3 years is it still $299? HELP! :confused:

[Einselen]

So what, do I need to buy one off ebay to pay $6.95/mo? Is there a discount for MSD on the prepaid plans? If I prepay for 3 years is it still $299? HELP! :confused:

To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.

There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.

Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.

[ChuckyBox]

To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com.
If the OP is paying monthly on his current box, he can also get any of the tivo.com bundled box/plans, and his existing box will drop to the MSD rate.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Don't worry, the good news is that eventually this pricing fiasco will make an excellent Harvard Business School case study on how not to market a product.

[Einselen]

If the OP is paying monthly on his current box, he can also get any of the tivo.com bundled box/plans, and his existing box will drop to the MSD rate.

I missed that bit of info, sorry I confused you. Chucky is right. Thanks for catching that. I should have a rule that I am unable to post on the forums until I have been awake for at least 1 hour.

[Adam1115]

To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.

There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.

Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.

Ugh! Why doesn't this faq from TiVo mention this? It makes no distinction!

Anyway, I have a Series3 with the $299 3 year prepaid plan. So I guess I'm screwed.

You mean to tell me I have to manage a credit card to pay $6.95 a month? There is NO WAY to prepay it? How ANNOYING! Never heard of a company not letting you PREPAY, how ridiculous! (Or, to be more correct, charges you EXTRA to prepay.)

Anyway TiVoPony could correct the faq? It is misleading as it makes no distinction as to a TiVo.com box and a box purchased elsewhere!!

[Einselen]

Ugh! Why doesn't this faq from TiVo mention this? It makes no distinction!

Anyway, I have a Series3 with the $299 3 year prepaid plan. So I guess I'm screwed.

You mean to tell me I have to manage a credit card to pay $6.95 a month? There is NO WAY to prepay it?

The F.A.Q. says it you just add a box to your account not box and service (which is what ordering from Tivo.com is). I can see though where you can get confused.

Now in regards to "managing" a credit card don't you also have to manage a credit card to do prepaid? I know it is one time to manage at the start of the prepay and pay it off, but at the end of 3 years you will have to "manage the card" or do another prepaid option. Are you saying you don't use a credit card for purchases? I would never be able to not do that, but more power to you. Not to mention I think you should at least have one credit card with a small amount of credit on it that you use maybe just for gas and groceries and pay off each month. It helps your credit score.

[timckelley]

Anyway TiVoPony could correct the faq?Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.

[Adam1115]

The F.A.Q. says it you just add a box to your account not box and service (which is what ordering from Tivo.com is). I can see though where you can get confused.

Now in regards to "managing" a credit card don't you also have to manage a credit card to do prepaid? I know it is one time to manage at the start of the prepay and pay it off, but at the end of 3 years you will have to "manage the card" or do another prepaid option. Are you saying you don't use a credit card for purchases? I would never be able to not do that, but more power to you. Not to mention I think you should at least have one credit card with a small amount of credit on it that you use maybe just for gas and groceries and pay off each month. It helps your credit score.

I'm not saying I CAN'T manage it, I just prefer to pay it once, get a discount for doing so (like I did on the series3), pay it off and be done with it.

Sure, I agree that it sucks that I have to go through it again in 3 years, but they don't offer lifetime, so that's the only choice.

A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.

[c3]

they don't offer lifetime, so that's the only choice.

They do. Just buy lifetime on eBay for $300 or less, and pay $199 for the VIP offer.

A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.

You don't use the credit card for anything else?

[ChuckyBox]

A monthly check for $6.95 to my credit card company is really annoying.
Look into online banking with automated bill pay. I have a card whose entire purpose is to pay recurring payments. The bill goes to the bank, the bank pays it on the due date with no intervention by me. When I'm paying my other bills, I glance at it to make sure it is what it should be. Try it, you'll like it.

[ChuckyBox]

Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.
He's pitching a new glo-remote in another thread.

[Adam1115]

They do. Just buy lifetime on eBay for $300 or less, and pay $199 for the VIP offer.



You don't use the credit card for anything else?

Well, I hadn't planned on a whole discussion about my bills, but the gist of it is:

1) Sometimes I use my credit cards for other things, sometimes I don't. USUALLY, I don't have other charges, no. I only use credit cards for bigger purchases. Gas, and other day to day stuff is not on credit cards, so many months I don't. Honestly I don't like to use credit cards at all, but dislike debit cards worse due to it being tied to my checking account.

2) If it's the only option, or the best way to go, I'll suck it up and do the monthly charge to the credit card. It's not THAT big of a deal, I do it for Packet 8, it just isn't my preference to do it this way.

3) Part of the reason I don't like it is that I don't like giving someone the authority to charge reoccurring charges to companies. It's fine when everything goes smooth, but when there are billing problems it can be a disaster. (You dispute a charge , then they charge you again the next month. I got into a big mess with an ISP that refused to stop billing my card. I finally had to cancel the card, then you have to go straighten out these other companies that charge your credit card monthly with a new number.)

It's not THAT big of a deal, its just something I'd rather not do. Since it appears its the only way to go, thats fine, I just wanted to get my head around it since the faqs are confusing. It was nice that I could prepay for the 3 year service for $299, I was kind of hoping their was an equivalent to that for MSD. ;)

[Adam1115]

To get MSD you need to buy a Tivo from anywhere besides Tivo.com. When you go to activate that Tivo into your account you will be given the options of $13.95/month with 1 year commit, 8.95/month with 2 year commit or 6.95/month with 3 year commit.

There is no MSD discount for prepaid plans.

Also the service is tied to the account and not the box.

Ok! Another question, Best Buy has an add for a Series 2 for free, after mail in rebate. Do you qualify for the mail in rebate and a $6.95/mo 3 year plan??

[dswallow]

Ok! Another question, Best Buy has an add for a Series 2 for free, after mail in rebate. Do you qualify for the mail in rebate and a $6.95/mo 3 year plan??
Yes.

Well... as long as you don't buy it from Best Buy's subtract. :)

[kunalseth]

rply to

[HDTiVo]

Hopefully, but he seems to have vanished without a trace.
He's probably taking it easy until January when his department goes to work on some new way to sell TiVoes. :rolleyes:

What poor Adam is running into is TiVo not bothering to update their March '06 info and reconcile it with the latest story, amongst other things. :(

[timckelley]

By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answers, which doesn't bode well. :( It makes it seem like the answers are not going to be good.

[dswallow]

By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answeres, which doesn't bode well. :( It makes it seem like the answers are not going to be good.
Especially when in other threads they'll pop up sometimes within minutes or hours of a post with a response.

But hey, at least we can whine about it someplace. :)

[bicker]

By vanishing without a trace, despite repeated pleas for answers, it gives the impression that they're embarrassed about the answersOr that they simply don't think that answering the questions in this type of venue will be productive and beneficial.

[timckelley]

Or that they simply don't think that answering the questions in this type of venue will be productive and beneficial.

Anybody here know which venue they're answering the questions in? I'd be interested to go read the latest FAQ. :)

[ChuckyBox]

Anybody here know which venue they're answering the questions in? I'd be interested to go read the latest FAQ. :)
I think it is pretty clear that the issues raised here are fairly minor and most of the commentary came from a small number of individuals in fairly specific situations. The vast majority of existing subscribers are unaffected by the changes.

Eventually we will get the answers we crave, if not via direct statements of policy, then through empirical evidence.

[sactoroy]

Yes.

Well... as long as you don't buy it from Best Buy's subtract. :)

I'm not sure what you mean by subtract but BB has a coupon for 12% off with a Reward Zone membership and Tivo hardware is allowed. I've got a S2 with a lifetime subscription. The BB price is $219.99 less 12% = $193.59. So you would make $26.41 before tax. However, I am a bit confused with the MSD. To get the $6.95/mo price for this new box, I have to sign up for a 3 year plan? Is the 3 year plan a prepaid amount, that is, I pay $250 up front for the 3 years or am I just charged $6.95/mo for three years? :confused:

[Adam1115]

Yea, I just gave up and bought one on ebay...

[dswallow]

I'm not sure what you mean by subtract but BB has a coupon for 12% off with a Reward Zone membership and Tivo hardware is allowed. I've got a S2 with a lifetime subscription. The BB price is $219.99 less 12% = $193.59. So you would make $26.41 before tax. However, I am a bit confused with the MSD. To get the $6.95/mo price for this new box, I have to sign up for a 3 year plan? Is the 3 year plan a prepaid amount, that is, I pay $250 up front for the 3 years or am I just charged $6.95/mo for three years? :confused:
"subtract" was just a little joke about the "add" in the post I replied to when "ad" was what was intended.

The MSD plan is only good for monthly service; you can't use any of the prepaid options and get any more discount. You just need to commit for 3 years to get the $12.95-$6.00/month MSD rate; you'll pay it monthly. The 3-year prepaid price works out to $8.30/month.

[sactoroy]

"subtract" was just a little joke about the "add" in the post I replied to when "ad" was what was intended.

The MSD plan is only good for monthly service; you can't use any of the prepaid options and get any more discount. You just need to commit for 3 years to get the $12.95-$6.00/month MSD rate; you'll pay it monthly. The 3-year prepaid price works out to $8.30/month.

Thanks! Just the answer I was looking for before adding another box.

[mcouture]

I currently have 2 Time Warner Cable DVRs which I hate, but I only pay $5.95/month each.

To replace these DVRs, I'd have to pay Tivo, $69.99 per box(after rebate) plus $19.95/month for the first plus $12.95/month for the second box.....holy cow!

PLUS, one of the TW DVR boxes is a HD DVR.....Tivo's answer is $799 + service!

[catcard]

Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this! I currently still have my Phillips Series 1 for which I pay 12.95 per month (no fancy extras that the S2 & S3 have). I love my Tivo service - I can't imagine having to go back to watching live TV again! If I was told I had to pay $24.95 a month for my service so that the company does not go out of business, that would be fine with me. Tivo MUST figure out how to get to a profit making situation - I can fully understand that - why is this so hard to understand?

An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?

Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!

[Gai-jin]

An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?

Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!

Perhaps you're what's considered wealthy? Your bottom line seems to be different than most. I'm not willing to pay double the current pricing. I'd pay the $6 or so a month that my cable company charges for their dvr.

As for the ETF, your cell phone service has an ETF because the subsidise the phone. You can get service without a long term contract, and with no ETF, by buying the phone for full price or bringing your own phone. Tivo, on the other hand, offers no such exemption.

I'm surprised that tivo has the flat ETF... I know many states require the cell phone companies to pro-rate the etf, I would have expected such requirements to apply to any such long term service contract.

[Adam1115]

Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this! I currently still have my Phillips Series 1 for which I pay 12.95 per month (no fancy extras that the S2 & S3 have). I love my Tivo service - I can't imagine having to go back to watching live TV again! If I was told I had to pay $24.95 a month for my service so that the company does not go out of business, that would be fine with me. Tivo MUST figure out how to get to a profit making situation - I can fully understand that - why is this so hard to understand?

An early termination fee - my cell phone service also has a termination fee so that is not a foreign concept at all. What is the big deal that Tivo has this?

Bottom line - my Tivo service is worth much more to me than what I pay every month so I just HOPE they can be profitable using this new pricing and stay in business!

Well I'm sure most people agree that TiVo provides a valuable service. It's nice that you can afford to pay whatever, that's great!

If the service is so awesome for you, why didn't you buy lifetime for you series1? Sounds like you've paid out close a grand in service fees for which you could have paid $199 for lifetime! Sounds like this forum is full of people that watch what they are paying a little more carefullly then just shelling out cash without looking for other deals.

Also, a lot of the complaining is not about the fees themselves, but the fact that something simple has been made complicated.

If you buy a TiVo, you now have to decide between three different price plans. This is three times more complex than the single $12.95 plan they had before.

If you buy a TiVo from their website you don't qualify for the multiple box discount, regardless of conflicting information posted by TiVo employees in this thread. Not a big deal if your a person that would pay $800 extra in service fees when they could've bought $199 lifetime, I guess.. Some of the logic was that they are giving the boxes away for free on tivo.com, yet the retail stores are doing free after rebate. TiVo's rebate process is NOT consumer friendly.



3)

[mcouture]

I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.

However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.

$1800+ in startup costs
$71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)

...and I'm whining? Who wouldn't at these prices. If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.

Lower pricing should bring more people should bring more service contracts and eventually more $$$ and profits should follow. Raising prices rarely does any good long-term.

[ashu]

Why do people insist on posting WORST POSSIBLE CASE prices as well as subscription costs?

If you're going to invest that much in TiVos, you'll find better deals and commit for longer.

And the (SD) boxes are CHEAPER than your suggested cheaper prices.

And, and ...

Your math is so seriously flawed, even I don't have the patience to correct it :D

[dswallow]

I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.

However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.

$1800+ in startup costs
$71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)
You have that wrong; if you buy them from TiVo there's no discount for multiple units on the same account, at least not until you get past the initial commitment period. Well, except for the Series3 units... maybe through TiVo, and definitely from other retailers (and it's basically the same price from either source).

So technically that's $19.95 x 3 per month plus $13.95 * 2 per month, or $87.75/month for a 1 year commitment. After the first year (the original commitment period), you'd be able to utilize the multi-service discount on 4 of them

If you make a 3 year commitment on all the units, that'd make it $12.95 * 3 per month plus $6.95 * 2 per month, or $52.75/month.

If you prepaid for 3 years, you'd need to come up with $1,495, but it would be about like paying just $8.305 x 5 per month, or $41.53/month. Though it'd be cheaper to just prepay for the 3 SD units and go month-to-month with the 3-year commitment on the Series3 units since the discounted $6.95/month is less than the effective monthly cost of the 3-year prepay. So that'd be only $897 up front plus $6.95 x 2 per month, or $13.90/month, together that's about the same as paying $38.82/month.

You could buy 2 of them retail, and get a rebate covering most of the unit cost, then those would qualify for the multiservice discount. You can't do it with more than 2 though since the rebate is limited to 2 per household.

Now wasn't that simple and easy to understand? We all need to thank TiVo for simplifying this whole thing. Imagine what it'd have been like before!

[Einselen]

We all need to thank TiVo for simplifying this whole thing. Imagine what it'd have been like before!

Scary enough that was simplified more then what would have been the cases on the old plan. Also the reason why this becomes so complex is because we are dealing with 5 different Tivos so we do this price and then do monthly on the entire 5 together and this and that. Still though I don't even want to think about what hte old plan would have churned out.

[bicker]

Good Lord! I am amazed at the arguing and whining on all this! You're perhaps the type of customer that TiVo is aiming to make their typical customer, and indeed that had better come to pass or they had better just close up shop and go home now. There are a lot of people who want TiVo, or have TiVo and want to continue using TiVo, who perhaps are not as able to afford what they want, and therefore are frustrated at the conflict between the value they desire and the price of securing that value. That's what most likely accounts for the whining you referred to.

[ChuckyBox]

...and I'm whining?

Yes.

Who wouldn't at these prices.
Someone who recognizes that if they don't like the price of the product they are under no obligation to buy it.

If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.
It's interesting that your proposed pricing has nothing to do with the costs or market realities with which the company has to contend, only what you think you should pay. Did I say "interesting?" I meant "ridiculous."

[mcouture]

ChuckyBox,

Correct, I am whining. I'm whining because I have a need and I am willing to buy but I have no idea how to go about getting the "best deal".

My "proposed pricing" was just an example. You're right, I have no idea of their costs for the equipment. It was an example and nothing more. Ridiculous, not really.

I am "someone who recognizes that if they don't like the price" I don't have to buy.

I'm willing to pay "a premium" to get rid of my rented DVR equipment and go with a Tivo. However the premium is (in my opinion) way out of line. AND I am (potential) buyer who "can' afford it...if I want.

[mcouture]

So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service.

Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.

[Adam1115]

I too want Tivo to stay around for a long time. However, I have 2 HDTVs, and 3 SDTVs. I would love to have at least 3 Tivos and have them share and do all their fancy stuff.

However, the inital startup cost of $799 x 2 plus $69 x 3 is severe sticker shock. Then $19.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 + $12.95 +$12.95 per month.

$1800+ in startup costs
$71.75 in usage fees per month ($860+ per year)

...and I'm whining? Who wouldn't at these prices. If it were like the Cell Phone companies, then we should pay for example $19.95 for the first box and $5.95 for all other boxes under your account.
The boxes should also be cheaper, something like: 1-Tuner for $150, 2-Tuner $200, HD-Tuner $300.....more for upgraded features but these should be entry level prices...enough to sucker us in to buy more boxes.

Lower pricing should bring more people should bring more service contracts and eventually more $$$ and profits should follow. Raising prices rarely does any good long-term.

Well, yea, I guess if you make every possible wrong decision and refuse to use any common sense, you could pay that much.

But if you are smart, and know how to shop online, you'd pay $679 per TiVo, *2 = $1358. You can get SD-TiVo's for about $25 used, the first one would be free new (after rebate) from Best Buy. Now we're at $1358 + $50, so $1408.

Monthly fees are $299 for 3 years on your two TiVo's, that's $8.31/mo, and $6.95 for the remaining 3. That's $37.47 a month.

So $1408 in startup costs and $37.47 a month.

And honestly, I don't believe that you currently have 2 HD DVR's and 3 SD DVR's from your cable company. Most cable companies give you crap if you want more than one! Even comcast charges you $9.99 for a dvr and $5 per outlet...

[ChuckyBox]

So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service.

Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.
Box 1: $19.95/month or $199 upfront
Box 2: $13.95/month

If you already have other TiVos, at least one of which is a full price box (any of lifetime, monthly, pre-paid, or bundled), both boxes would be $13.95/month.

[Adam1115]

So explain this again. Let's say I want to just replace my 2 rented DVRs with 2 Tivos...let's say just using the Series2-2tuner models. I can go to Bestbuy and get them with rebate at $69.99 each plus service.

Let's say I wanted to only commit to 1-year...what is the service going to cost me monthly for box 1 and box 2? As you can see I am still confused.

First, I think you will only qualify for one rebate. Maybe get a Single tuner version off of ebay to save some...

If you commit to 1 year, you'll pay $19.95 a month for the first one ($239.40) and $13.95/mo for the second. ($167.40)

Which would be stupid.

Pay the extra $60 and you have THREE YEARS of service on the first one, second one will be $6.95 a month for 3 years.

Total 3 year cost for both- $549.20

Total 3 year cost on the one year plan- $1,220.40 (or, $406.80 per year. It's only $142.40 more to get THREE TIMES the service!)

Honestly though, this is way too confusing. They should simply do away with the one year two year nonsense. Make it a three year contract, and have ONE plan for monthly and ONE plan for prepaid, give a discount for MSD, and that's it.

[mcouture]

Thanks ChuckyBox.

Adam1115, I currently have 1 HD-DVR and 1 SD-DVR and pay $5.95/month each for the service.
They do charge me $7.95/month each for the box rental, but that wouldn't change if I went with Tivo as I would have to get their set-top-box and they charge $7.95 for each of these anyway.

[megazone]

I thought I'd toss in the before & after comparison tables. (http://blog.tivolovers.com/373587.html)

[mcouture]

Oh darn, I just re-read your response Adam1115 and if I get the 3-year service I can get the second one for $6.95 per month!?!

I read BestBuy's rebate and I can get up-to two Tivos on the rebate,, so I can get 2 Series2 2-tuner for $69/each.

So how would this work, I would have to commit to 3-years on both at $299 to get the best deal right?

So $600 for service for both for 3 years....equalling ~$16/month for service right?

[ChuckyBox]

Oh darn, I just re-read your response Adam1115 and if I get the 3-year service I can get the second one for $6.95 per month!?!

I read BestBuy's rebate and I can get up-to two Tivos on the rebate,, so I can get 2 Series2 2-tuner for $69/each.

So how would this work, I would have to commit to 3-years on both at $299 to get the best deal right?

So $600 for service for both for 3 years....equalling ~$16/month for service right?
No, if you commit for three years, you can get box 1 at $12.95/month or $299 upfront ($8.31 per month) and box 2 for $6.95 per month. So either $19.90 per month or $15.26 per month, depending on how you want to pay.

[mcouture]

Ok, got it..maybe.

I have a need for more features and stability than TimeWarner's DVR can give me, so at $19.90/month vs $12/month(TW)... I'm willing to try....even at a 3-year commitment.

If it works out (and the Series3 gets cheaper) then I'll dive into Tivo HD.....

Thanks for putting up with me...... you're a lively bunch! ;)

[ashu]

Just get two S3s NOW, add CableCards, dump ALL your cable company boxes ... and live happily ever after :)

Remember to taste the KoolAid - it's awesome!

[c3]

Something is wrong here: The cost of S3 with prepaid service (1, 2, or 3 years) is the same as S3 with service + absolutely free 540 box without service.

[HDTiVo]

Something is wrong here: The cost of S3 with prepaid service (1, 2, or 3 years) is the same as S3 with service + absolutely free 540 box without service.
Huh?

[c3]

Huh?

Pick one. Same cost.

1. S3 box, prepaid service for one unit.
2. S3 box, 540 box, prepaid service for one unit.

"S3 box" can be substituted with any fully paid unit. "Prepaid service" can be substituted with any monthly service without MSD.

[ashu]

Pick one. Same cost.

1. S3 box, prepaid service for one unit.
2. S3 box, 540 box, prepaid service for one unit.

"S3 box" can be substituted with any fully paid unit. "Prepaid service" can be substituted with any monthly service without MSD.

Huh?

Are you saying the sub cost for an S3 or S2 box are identical? I'm completely lost. Use small numbers, a large font and big, simple diagrams in your next attempt to explain this :)

[HDTiVo]

Huh?

Are you saying the sub cost for an S3 or S2 box are identical? I'm completely lost. Use small numbers, a large font and big, simple diagrams in your next attempt to explain this :)
Jeez, I thought it was my medication. :)

[c3]

Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.

Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.

Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?

[ashu]

Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.

Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.

Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?

And then there was light.

So?

Current 540 purchases with 3 year contracts lead to potential 540 doorstop situation at the end of the 3 year contract. This way, you make it an instant doorstop.

I doubt enough people will do this to make TiVo feel the pain*. But then again, this COULD explain the SHOCKING glut of brand new, unopened 540 boxes on craigslist! Of course, those folks want anything from $60 through $150 for these units! :eek:

*Compare to the Costco return policy. There are loosely substantiated rumore it will go away due to excessive abuse. I imagine TiVo is at least one half as smart as Costco and will do the same :)

[ashu]

Jeez, I thought it was my medication. :)

Did you not read the warning label? It causes massive, selective convenient (mis)interpretation in 1080P threads! :p

[samo]

Come on. Explaining everything takes the fun out of it.

Instead of buying a S3 and $299 for 3 years of prepaid service, buy a 540 (free) with $299 3-year prepaid, buy a S3, and then change the service from 540 to S3.

Why is TiVo giving away a free 540 box for nothing?
Nice scam. I wonder if TiVo marketing geniuses will use it as a reason to disallow sub transfers in a next iteration of price list.

[HDTiVo]

And then there was light.

So?

Current 540 purchases with 3 year contracts lead to potential 540 doorstop situation at the end of the 3 year contract. This way, you make it an instant doorstop.

I doubt enough people will do this to make TiVo feel the pain*. But then again, this COULD explain the SHOCKING glut of brand new, unopened 540 boxes on craigslist! Of course, those folks want anything from $60 through $150 for these units! :eek:

*Compare to the Costco return policy. There are loosely substantiated rumore it will go away due to excessive abuse. I imagine TiVo is at least one half as smart as Costco and will do the same :)
So that means if I bought a 540 on a 3 yr plan for example, and the 540 explodes, I can get a replacement 540 for $60 instead of going through TiVo for a replacement for whatever they charge. And TiVo gets zip for that replacement 540.

Let's say just the HD fails. I can get a replacement box w/ working HD for $60 ($0 for TiVo) and have the original box as a backup needing only a working HD.

[HDTiVo]

Nice scam. I wonder if TiVo marketing geniuses will use it as a reason to disallow sub transfers in a next iteration of price list.
Leaks in the dyke keep springing (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2006/12/13/what-happend-to-what-rogers-promised/).

[c3]

This problem is another way of saying: "Why use an unsubsidized/fully-paid box when I can get a new box for free". The problem can be solved by giving an incentive (lower sub fee or shorter commitment) for bring-your-own-box plan.

[bicker]

Either you're willing to pay what the seller is willing to sell for, or you're not. As Chucky said, you're under no obligation to pay a price you don't like. Similarly, the seller is under no obligation to sell at a price they don't like. That's the nature of the mass-market. Complaining ("whining") is a bit pointless -- the strongest and most convincing way to complain is to not make the purchase. Money talks. No harm, no foul, no reason to demonize anyone or anything. It's just business.

[Adam1115]

Either you're willing to pay what the seller is willing to sell for, or you're not. As Chucky said, you're under no obligation to pay a price you don't like. Similarly, the seller is under no obligation to sell at a price they don't like. That's the nature of the mass-market. Complaining ("whining") is a bit pointless -- the strongest and most convincing way to complain is to not make the purchase. Money talks. No harm, no foul, no reason to demonize anyone or anything. It's just business.

The complaining isn't about the price, its about trying to figure what the price IS!

[iceman]

The same principle applies though :).

[bicker]

I disagree. I think the vast majority of the messages in this thread really are about the price itself.

[Gai-jin]

I disagree. I think the vast majority of the messages in this thread really are about the price itself.

Of course, then there are the posts that are just here to bicker, without any real contribution to the thread. :rolleyes:

[bicker]

Then, of course, are the personal attacks. I forgot about those. :rolleyes:

[timckelley]

We've got an assortment of things going on here. :cool:

[HDTiVo]

Of course, then there are the posts that are just here to bicker, without any real contribution to the thread. :rolleyes:
Its such a waste of time and energy dealing with those people and a disservice to folks looking for info.

But that's the world.

[bicker]

We've got an assortment of things going on here. :cool:We sure do.

[MichaelK]

been busy for a bit and lost track.

Can someone tell me what happens to MSD IF I have a lifetime box and 2 boxes already on MSD at $6.95. I know if nothing changes it stays the same- but what if I want to ADD another s3? I see I can get a $6 discount off the monthly rate so if I could somehow prepay the 3 year rate I could get it to be 6.95. But it's not clear to me that they made a way for me to prepay a box with MSD? So would I need to go month to month with the new box and therfore bay 19.95- 6 = 13.95/month for an additional box?

Is there a way to prepay for multiple boxes yet?

[c3]

If you want the MSD rate, you have to pay monthly. For $6.95, you have to commit to 3 years of service.

[MichaelK]

If you want the MSD rate, you have to pay monthly. For $6.95, you have to commit to 3 years of service.



As I thought.

That's messed up.

I have no problem prepaying for 3 years- but at least allow it.

I could buy a new box, open another account and pay a buck less a month then the 13.95 adding a box would see to get me by adding it to my account. But then if they ever get MRV working for s3's i'd be out of luck.

[c3]

I have no idea what you're talking about. You want to open up another account to pay more?

[MichaelK]

Nope I'm trying to pay the least amount.

I currently have lifetime on one box and 2 boxes with MSD at 6.95.

If I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong- since it makes no sense to me under my current understanding)

1) If I add another box with MSD- I have to pay month to month which currently is 19.95 and I will get a 6 dollar discount for MSD for a monthly cost of 13.95. Since I can NOT prepay for the new MSD box and have to use month to month at the then current price of 19.95.

2) if I COULD (which isn't allowed) prepay msd then I could get the 3 year prepay at 12.95 a month minus the 6 dollar savings and get it at the current 6.95 a box.

3) If i open a new account and prepay for 3 years then the monthly cost is 12.95

So am I not understanding 1, 2, and 3 above?

Since 2 appears impoossible it looks like 3 is a dollar less then #1

LIGHBULB moment below? *************

OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?

[dswallow]

OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?
The multi-service discount only applies to monthly payments, not to any prepaid rates. So the only way to get the $6.95 rate is to commit to 3 years of service on the unit and pay monthly the $12.95 less the $6.00 discount. Prepaying for 3 years would be $299 or about $8.31 a month. The best price comes from paying monthly when the multi-service discount applies.

[c3]

These are the MSD rates:

1-year: $19.95 - $6 = $13.95
2-year: $14.95 - $6 = $8.95
3-year: $12.95 - $6 = $6.95

[ChuckyBox]

OR Are you saying that I can commit to 3 years on month to month payments (without prepaying- just commit) on the new box and still just pay 6.95 each month for 3 years?
Since no one will answer you directly: Yes, that is what he is saying.

You just have to sign up for 3 years. You will pay $6.95/month. But you pay that every month, rather than prepaying.

[MichaelK]

Since no one will answer you directly: Yes, that is what he is saying.

You just have to sign up for 3 years. You will pay $6.95/month. But you pay that every month, rather than prepaying.


thanks!

Well then- that's not so bad at all. Frankly it's even better for my wallet to take 3 years to pay it.

[kupe]

Wow- this is what I get for being away from the Tivo Forums for a couple months! ;)

Okay- here's my question. We currently have a S2 ST with lifetime service. We have a second S2 ST on the $6.95/month MSD. This week we bought a new S2 DT, not yet activated. It sounds like if and when I activate the new unit, I will get a $6/month MSD discount. But what I'm not clear on is what "base rate" is used when the qualifying subscription is a Lifetime unit. In other words, $6/month off which rate?

And here's the scary part. I really only need 2 Tivos. I was thinking of transferring the Lifetime to the new S2 DT and selling one of the S2 ST units. It sounds to me like all heck will break loose with my contract when I do that though. I'm trying to figure out what my new rates would be, but I'm stumped!

I even considered that it might be best to leave the ST Lifetime unit assigned as it is and just stick it in the attic since that's the one I'd be replacing with the DT. But then I read that a Lifetime unit has to "phone home" at least once every six months to act as the qualifying unit for MSD.

And add to the equation that any rebates I'd get on the new DT are forefeited if the unit is activated as a Transfer and not an Additional Activation.

Thoughts anyone on doing the least damage to my longstanding account?

Thanks!

Kupe

[dswallow]

Wow- this is what I get for being away from the Tivo Forums for a couple months! ;)

Okay- here's my question. We currently have a S2 ST with lifetime service. We have a second S2 ST on the $6.95/month MSD. This week we bought a new S2 DT, not yet activated. It sounds like if and when I activate the new unit, I will get a $6/month MSD discount. But what I'm not clear on is what "base rate" is used when the qualifying subscription is a Lifetime unit. In other words, $6/month off which rate?

And here's the scary part. I really only need 2 Tivos. I was thinking of transferring the Lifetime to the new S2 DT and selling one of the S2 ST units. It sounds to me like all heck will break loose with my contract when I do that though. I'm trying to figure out what my new rates would be, but I'm stumped!

I even considered that it might be best to leave the ST Lifetime unit assigned as it is and just stick it in the attic since that's the one I'd be replacing with the DT. But then I read that a Lifetime unit has to "phone home" at least once every six months to act as the qualifying unit for MSD.

And add to the equation that any rebates I'd get on the new DT are forefeited if the unit is activated as a Transfer and not an Additional Activation.

Thoughts anyone on doing the least damage to my longstanding account?
Unless you have a series 1 with lifetime that still qualifies for a one-time transfer, you cannot transfer lifetime to a Series 2 DT unit, only to a Series 3 unit, and even then only for units bought on or before 12/31/2006.

If you bought your Series 2 DT unit from a retailer, it could be a multi-service discount unit, which saves you $6 off the monthly rate for service; you'll need to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and will pay the respective rate less $6/month. If you use a prepaid plan, there;s no multi-service discount. If you bought the unit from TiVo.com, it doesn't qualify for a multi-service discount until after the initial commitment period.

[c3]

Other than special circumstances and promotions, you cannot transfer lifetime.

MSD rate is based on the length of commitment. Take the regular monthly rate and subtract $6. For example, to get the MSD $6.95/month, you have to commit to 3 years of service.

[kupe]

Other than special circumstances and promotions, you cannot transfer lifetime.

Hey guys-

I'm looking at this page:
http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=5BE89763-9AF4-4C17-853C-5DD1B7E36952

It says:
You can transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:
You activated the DVR less than 30 days ago.
The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.
The DVR was activated under an incorrect service number.

If any of these conditions apply, you can transfer Product Lifetime Service through Manage My Account (following the instructions above), or by contacting Customer Support.

It doesnt' say anything about S1 or S2 or S3 units. It seems I would qualify under the first item: Unit activated in the past 30 days (I'm assuming they are talking about the new unit, not the old one. Or not?)

Kupe

[timckelley]

(I'm assuming they are talking about the new unit, not the old one. Or not?)

KupeI bet they're talking about the old unit, but somebody else will confirm this I'm sure. If what you say were true, there wouldn't be nearly as much complaining going on around here.

I just read your link though, and it does sound ambiguous. In fact, if I were a newbie that didn't know better, I'd say that the 'DVR' is in fact refering to the new one, since the new one is the 'DVR' last referenced with the word 'DVR' that was used in that article. Since I suspect they meant the old one and not the new one, I really think they need to clarify the wording on that link. (IOW, they need to reword it much more clearly than it's currently worded.) I can see how people could be misled.

[kupe]

I bet they're talking about the old unit, but somebody else will confirm this I'm sure. If what you say were true, there wouldn't be nearly as much complaining going on around here.

Tim-

It certainly isn't clear in the way it is written, but alas I'm afraid you are right. My lifetime service won't transfer.

I really am inclined to just return the new S2 DT. It sounds like messing up the status quo of my existing contract with its Lifetime S2 and the grandfathered $6.95/month S2 just isn't worth it. Man, I sure hope Tivo didn't bet the house on this new pricing.

Kupe

[timckelley]

How about you just stop using your current monthly S2 and replace it with the new DT S2. Your monthly cost would be the same as it is now (one lifetime + one monthly) (assuming you sign up for 3 years on the DT S2.)

[ah577]

Hopefully someone is able to help me, because I am very confused tonight. I currently have two Series2 boxes that I have had for the last three years. I pay 12.95/6.95 each month on the boxes. I have not paid much attention to the new prices until tonight because they have not had anything to do with me at this point.

Tonight I was looking into buying a Dual Tuner box to REPLACE one of the single tuner boxes and saw the packages offered on tivo.com. I also saw that Amazon has the dual tuner with the rebate available (and I have an amazon gift certificate so that would be a good deal for me)

My question is this: If I buy from Amazon, do I still have to purchase one of the contracts or can I activate it and continue to pay 12.95/6.95 like I am currently paying. The person I spoke to at tivo seemed as confused about the price structure as I was and when I mentioned buying through amazon told me that they are only available at tivo.com??!!?? That is when I knew I would get better information here.

Sorry for the long post. I have looked all through this thread but did not find the answer and the FAQ did not seem to answer this.

[MichaelK]

you can keep paying 12.95/6.95

You will need to agree to keep the new box active for 3 years though.

[Einselen]

My question is this: If I buy from Amazon, do I still have to purchase one of the contracts or can I activate it and continue to pay 12.95/6.95 like I am currently paying. The person I spoke to at tivo seemed as confused about the price structure as I was and when I mentioned buying through amazon told me that they are only available at tivo.com??!!?? That is when I knew I would get better information here.


You can either get a new contract on the box or you can forfeit the rebate ($180) and have the service from one of your current boxes be transfered to the new box.

I know you said you have an Amazon gift certificate but you may want to use that for something else (need Tivo wireless adapters?) and purchase the DT from Tivo, get a 3 year prepaid on it (making it essentially 8.31/month) and dropping your 12.95 box to 6.95/month.

[ah577]

I know you said you have an Amazon gift certificate but you may want to use that for something else (need Tivo wireless adapters?) and purchase the DT from Tivo, get a 3 year prepaid on it (making it essentially 8.31/month) and dropping your 12.95 box to 6.95/month.

I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)

[timckelley]

I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)

I think so. It sounds like he's saying the new DT could be your qualifying box allowing the other box to be $6.95. Plus the DT would only cost $8.31 per month, and IIUC, the DT would be free (no up-front cost).

[ChuckyBox]

I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)
The boxes you get through the bundles at tivo.com are "qualifying" boxes for MSD, but they themselves are not "eligible" for MSD. It does not matter if you pay monthly or prepay.

So go ahead and get the new box any way you want (online or retail), because your other box(es) will continue at the MSD rate.

On your new box you can choose any of the payment plans you want. If you pick the 3-year prepay, that comes to only $8.31 per month, so you'll actually end up paying less than you are now (though you could also do this for your current $12.95/month box).

[Einselen]

I am not sure I understand, If I purchase one of the prepaid contracts on tivo.com, the other box on my account stays at 6.95? I am only looking to have two boxes active (The new dual tuner and one of the current single tuner boxes)

Sorry I forgot about replacing. After thinking about it if you have have enough money upfront I would buy the box from amazon, apply your gift certificate, mail in the rebate and for service I would do 3 yrs prepaid. You will then essentially be paying $8.31/month on the the new DT and $6.95/month on whatever old box you keep.

[timckelley]

Sorry I forgot about replacing. After thinking about it if you have have enough money upfront I would buy the box from amazon, apply your gift certificate, mail in the rebate and for service I would do 3 yrs prepaid. You will then essentially be paying $8.31/month on the the new DT and $6.95/month on whatever old box you keep.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.

[GoHokies!]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.

70 bucks. The single tuner is free.

[dswallow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he pays the $8.31/month for service (under the $299 prepaid plan), will TiVo inc. throw in a free series 2 DT? Or if it's not free, isn't it pretty cheap? I'm wondering if it's worth it for him to go through Amazon.
It's the same price from tivo.com as the after-rebate cost from a retailer, but going through Amazon lets him use his Amazon gift certificate. Considering the extra amount of money required up front to buy the unit from a retailer and the likely extended delay in receiving a rebate, I'd suggest using the gift certificate for something else and get the TiVo from tivo.com.

[ah577]

Thanks for all the responses, they have been a big help.


It's the same price from tivo.com as the after-rebate cost from a retailer, but going through Amazon lets him use his Amazon gift certificate.
Right now the tivo website is listing the dual tuner as $70.00 and Amazon has it on sale at $50.00 after rebate. That is another reason I was thinking of going through amazon for the purchase.

[Sandlapper]

This thread made my head hurt. :o

[timckelley]

This thread made my head hurt. :o

Perhaps that wouldn't have happened if TiVo had made a simpler pricing structure. :)

[c3]

a simpler pricing structure. :)

like a simpler income tax code?

[timckelley]

like a simpler income tax code?

That would also be a welcome relief.

[JohnnyO]

I'm one of the DirecTivo users who is unhappy DTV's new DVRs are nonTivo units, so I'm investigating my options.

Comcast is the local cable provider. I get my high-speed Internet from them, and before 2002, when I switched to DTV, got my TV through them.

It seems that for the channels I want, I would need the following:
Digital Silver with HBO for $80.99/mo
HD Service for $5.00/mo
Cablecards (2) for $1.50/month

I currently have two DirectTV Series 2 boxes. I'm thinking of getting one Series 3 Tivo, and one a Dual Tuner Series 2(unless the hassles of trying to actually record from the DT box drives me to a second Series 3).

If I understand correctly, my Tivo S3 purchase options are in the $600-$800 range, and the dual tuner Series 2 is about $50 after rebate.

Now -- the big question -- monthly fees. From the Tivo Web site it seems the cheapest way to go is the three year pre-paid (for the two-year price) of $600.00 ($8.33/month * two subs)

That monthly fee (which would be $16.67, I think) just "feels" high after paying $5.99/month DVR Service fee plus $4.99/month second receiver fee to DirecTV.

Anyway -- I'm just trying to understand my options. I figure I'll take a few months to digest things before pulling the HD trigger to start the ball rolling.

Thanks,

John

[dswallow]

John, you could put the first unit on a 3-year prepaid plan for roughly $8.31 a month, then all other units would qualify for the multi-service discount which would make them $6.95/month each with a 3-year commitment. The only "catch" is you need to buy everything but the first unit from a local retailer rather than tivo.com, but since you want at least one series 3, that's no big deal since the local retailer prices on the series 3 are better than tivo.com anyway.

Not only is that cheaper, but it doesn't require money up front on anything but the first unit.

[JohnnyO]

Not only is that cheaper, but it doesn't require money up front on anything but the first unit.

Thanks Doug!

[Phantom Gremlin]

This thread made my head hurt. :o

I grew up in the '60s. I finally figured out what this pricing fiasco reminds me of. (from wikipedia):

The rules are intentionally very complex. Each player gets six cards, except for the player on the dealer's right, who gets seven. The second card is turned up, except on Tuesdays. Kirk dealt the henchman two jacks, which are a "half-fizzbin." When the henchman said he needs another jack, Kirk warned that a third jack is a "shralk" and is grounds for disqualification. With two jacks, one wants a king and a deuce, except at night, when one wants a queen and a four.

At this point, Kirk dealt a third jack, but to keep the ruse going, he ignored the disqualification rule he had just made up. He explained that, had a king been dealt instead of a jack, the player would get another card, except when it's dark, in which case he'd have to give it back. The top hand is a "royal fizzbin," but the odds of getting one are "astronomical": when Kirk asked Spock what the odds are, Spock truthfully replied that he had never computed them.

Kirk called the last card a "kronk" and then purposely dealt a card such that it fell on the floor. As the henchman being taught reached down, Kirk delivered a blow to his neck, and Spock nerve-pinched the other guard, allowing the three to escape.

Don't we all wish we could escape from this pricing lunacy? I find it quite interesting that TivoPony himself has escaped from the thread!

[TiVo Troll]

...I finally figured out what this pricing fiasco reminds me of...

Don't we all wish we could escape from this pricing lunacy? I find it quite interesting that TivoPony himself has escaped from the thread!

TiVo has one of the most convoluted pricing policies of any consumer product.

If you want a TV "service" which couples a DVR with a search engine for totally automated time-delayed TV watching, by all means buy it!

But if a DVR with just an onscreen program guide fulfills your needs, cable company TV recorders are MUCH cheaper and require no service commitments or maintenance worries of any kind. Comcast just increased the monthly rent for its dual tuner hi-def recorder by $2 to $11.95 monthly. It's CHEAP!

(BTW, Comcast's box ain't bad and even has a (less ambitious than TiVo's) search engine. Their MS based dual tuner hi-def recorder is very different from TiVo's Series 3 but both are fun to use. One costs $12.00 a month and the other $1200 (with "cheap" Lifetime TiVo Service, which will soon become unavailable.)

TiVo Inc. hasn't been able to turn a profit since its 1997 founding and now TiVo is the only remaining standalone DVR. TiVo's pricing is way too convoluted and may now be too high to succeed as a standalone.

[c3]

But if a DVR with just an onscreen program guide fulfills your needs, cable company TV recorders are MUCH cheaper and require no service commitments or maintenance worries of any kind. Comcast just increased the monthly rent for its dual tuner hi-def recorder by $2 to $11.95 monthly. It's CHEAP!

I don't call $76/month cheap. That's how much I would have to pay Comcast to get the DVR. With S3, I pay Comcast just $17/month for limited basic and CableCards.

[bicker]

I'm confused... why would you need CableCARDs for limited basic?

[c3]

I'm confused... why would you need CableCARDs for limited basic?

for TiVo guide data of local digital (HD and SD) channels

[bicker]

Yes, of course.

[DonWidmore]

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.

My long distance bills are probably 1/10th of what they were 10 years ago. My internet service costs were $50 for two dial up accounts (including the cost of the second line) in 1994 and they're $50 for a wifi network in 2006. I certainly hope that Tivo will lower their prices in 3 years and I expect if they don't or don't increase the service options they're going to have trouble cracking a larger market.

Don

[TiVo Troll]

I don't call $76/month cheap. That's how much I would have to pay Comcast to get the DVR. With S3, I pay Comcast just $17/month for limited basic and CableCards.

You're absolutely right.

How much does Comcast charge you for CableCards and how much was the installation?

I paid $16 for each of two installs and nothing for the CableCards, although Comcast's new ratechart says they'll charge $1.50 extra for dual TiVoCards.

Actually Comcast is probably the cheapest provider for the level of service we have ($80.24 for Digital Silver + 11.95 for the DCT6412). We get 4 digital outlets at no charge, 2 cable boxes (one the 6412 DVR) for $11.95, and 3 CableCards (for the S3 and a Sony single tuner HD DVR) for (as yet) no extra charge.

After the recent rate increase I checked Dish and was shocked at their price for approximately the same level of service.

Yeah, I probably should just settle in with a good set of rabbit ears! ;)

[c3]

How much does Comcast charge you for CableCards and how much was the installation?

2 CableCards for $1.50/month (included in my $17/month figure). Installation was about $16.

[retnuh47591]

I have been reading this thread and switching back to TiVo's site for 45 minutes and still can't figure out what exactly the best thing for me to do is. Maybe you smart folks can tell me. I currently have an 80 hour (retail) single tuner box with monthly on it with a contract that ends in February. It looks like I should be able to stay on the $12.95 a month I am paying now with no trouble after the contract runs out. I have been thinking about getting a 180 hour DT unit though and was counting on the MSD to keep my other box. With that out the window and without the means or the want to prepay for a long time, I am not sure what to do. It looks like I can get a DT box at full retail and not be eligible for a rebate but can sub it to replace my current box and keep paying $12.95.
Or I could keep both boxes, but what would be the cost for the single tuner one after adding my DT? No MSD probably so that doesn't make sense. But I would get the rebate on the new box this way. Would it be better to buy from TiVo or retail?
I am pretty confused about all this and disappointed that it looks like the MSD I was thinking of when I bought the original box is gone.
I forgot to add that I am already paying $80 a month for Charter cable and two digital boxes.
Thanks for any help!

Hunter

[c3]

MSD is still $6.95/month, with 3-year contract.

[dswallow]

I have been reading this thread and switching back to TiVo's site for 45 minutes and still can't figure out what exactly the best thing for me to do is. Maybe you smart folks can tell me. I currently have an 80 hour (retail) single tuner box with monthly on it with a contract that ends in February. It looks like I should be able to stay on the $12.95 a month I am paying now with no trouble after the contract runs out. I have been thinking about getting a 180 hour DT unit though and was counting on the MSD to keep my other box. With that out the window and without the means or the want to prepay for a long time, I am not sure what to do. It looks like I can get a DT box at full retail and not be eligible for a rebate but can sub it to replace my current box and keep paying $12.95.
Or I could keep both boxes, but what would be the cost for the single tuner one after adding my DT? No MSD probably so that doesn't make sense. But I would get the rebate on the new box this way. Would it be better to buy from TiVo or retail?
I am pretty confused about all this and disappointed that it looks like the MSD I was thinking of when I bought the original box is gone.
I forgot to add that I am already paying $80 a month for Charter cable and two digital boxes.
Your current unit is a qualifying unit for the multi-service discount. It's also grandfathered in that you can continue to pay the monthly rate of $12.95 for service unless and until you make any change affecting billing of this receiver on your account.

If you buy a unit at retail, you ARE ELIGIBLE for the rebate. And the unit IS ELIGIBLE for the multi-service discount. You would of course have to fork over the purchase price and wait a month or two for the rebate.

The multi-service discount only applies to monthly paid plans, not prepaid plans. So as long as you're willing to make a 3-year commitment, you can get the $6.95/month rate, billed monthly, for the new receiver. So you'd continue paying $12.95/mo on your existing unit and pay $6.95/mo on your new unit, or a total of $19.90/month. You'd have to come up with about $260 up front, but you'd get $180 of it back as a rebate in a few months.

If you want to buy the unit from tivo.com, you have to buy it as part of a package. That means either buying a prepaid plan, or paying monthly a rate dependant upon the length of your commitment. Neither method is eligible for the multi-service discount. But the unit purchased this way can be a qualifying unit for the multiservice discount.

So you could buy the 180-hour dual tuner unit from TiVo.com and either a prepaid plan at $199 for 1 year or $299 for 3 years, or commit to monthly paymentzs of $19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/mo for 2 years or $12.95/mo for 3 years. Your existing unit would then be eligible for the multi-unit discount. You could, as an example, prepay for 3 years at $299 and pay tivo.com the $69 for a 180-hour dual tuner unit, then commit to 3 years of service on your existing unit, under the multi-service discount. You'd be paying $368 up front and $6.95/month for 3 years and would have 3 years of service on both units. Effectively this is like $69 up front plus $8.31+$6.95 or $15.26/month.

[ChuckyBox]

Since you don't want to prepay for service (if I understand you correctly), your best option is to get your new box from tivo.com -- it will be $69. If you commit for three years, you'll pay $12.95/month, or a bit more for shorter commitments. Your current box will drop to $6.95 automatically at the end of the commitment term, and remain on month to month service.

Doing it this way lets you drop the older, single-tuner box if you decide you don't need it anymore.

[retnuh47591]

Ok, that is better than what I thought, although TiVo.com says it would be $169 instead of $69 for the 180 hour DT box. You guys have explained it a lot clearer than what I had figured out and how TiVo had explained it, especially the MSD. Kinda funny that an intelligent, tech savvy person (IMHO) like me has to go to a separate forum and have people who are not associated with TiVo, other than they love it, explain it so that he can understand it!
Do I need to do this before my current contract runs out or does it make any difference? Looks like the monthly subscribers have come out on top of the new changes. That seems backwards but I'll take it.
Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out.

[ChuckyBox]

You are right, it is $169 for the 180 hour box -- I was thinking about the 80-hour box.

The MSD situation has gotten more complicated, that is for sure. It is because it combines people with old plans and new plans, either of which is fairly simple on its own.

It shouldn't matter when you do it. When the contract expires, you should go month-to-month at the $12.95 rate, and if you add an "MSD qualifying" box (i.e., any box on which you are paying the full (i.e., non-MSD) subscription price), the $12.95 on your old box should drop to $6.95. So if you do it right away, you might have a month or two of overlap where you are paying full price on both boxes.

[arkitect75]

Ok, I have been reading the forums tonight (guess I should have started yesterday). I've been debating upgrading my cable and Tivo. My current setup is:


Sony HD TV
Comcast BASIC Cable ($12.95.month)
TiVo Series 2 single tuner ($12.95/month, one year commitment just ended)


I was trying to determine if I should go to digital cable or not (I've ultimately decided that I don't need to pay $60+/month for digital). The wife and I decided to "swap" out our single tuner for an 80 hr dual tuner. I also had a 12% off coupon @ Best Buy that was ending and decided to use it on the DT. Before I bought the DT, I called Tivo Customer Support to ask if I could buy the DT box and get the rebate, as well as transfer the service to the DT box (to keep me at $12.95/month). The rep told me that all would be good, so I got up today and ventured out to Best Buy, bought the DT box, came home and called to activate/transfer. As you can guess, they told me that I can have one or the other.
I've had my first TiVo for a little more than a year and I'm already wanting to upgrade, so based on that premise, I do not want to sign up for a long term commitment (the 3 yr @ $12.95). I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.
I haven't taken the DT out of the box yet, and I'm still contemplating returning it. As of now though, I'm leaning towards transferring the account to keep my $12.95 fee, and paying $120 for the DT (I had gift cards from the holidays).

Any other suggestions?

thanks ahead of time

[ChuckyBox]

I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.

TiVo has raised their prices for people who are unwilling to commit for a term long enough for the company to recoup their investment in the hardware. Is that what you are upset about?

You are just finishing a year of service on one discounted box, and now you are looking to get an $180 discount on a new box. A year at $12.95 is only $155. How do you expect TiVo to keep doing that for you every year? They need to know they are going to get their money back. Without a longer commitment or higher payments, the company loses money on customers like you. And hardware is only part of the expense -- it costs them money to provide the service, pay credit card fees, run the company, etc.

You have more options that most people -- you can get discounted hardware and pick a service plan that fits your needs, or you can forgo the hardware discount and keep paying $12.95 on a month-to-month basis.

[dswallow]

Ok, I have been reading the forums tonight (guess I should have started yesterday). I've been debating upgrading my cable and Tivo. My current setup is:


Sony HD TV
Comcast BASIC Cable ($12.95.month)
TiVo Series 2 single tuner ($12.95/month, one year commitment just ended)


I was trying to determine if I should go to digital cable or not (I've ultimately decided that I don't need to pay $60+/month for digital). The wife and I decided to "swap" out our single tuner for an 80 hr dual tuner. I also had a 12% off coupon @ Best Buy that was ending and decided to use it on the DT. Before I bought the DT, I called Tivo Customer Support to ask if I could buy the DT box and get the rebate, as well as transfer the service to the DT box (to keep me at $12.95/month). The rep told me that all would be good, so I got up today and ventured out to Best Buy, bought the DT box, came home and called to activate/transfer. As you can guess, they told me that I can have one or the other.
I've had my first TiVo for a little more than a year and I'm already wanting to upgrade, so based on that premise, I do not want to sign up for a long term commitment (the 3 yr @ $12.95). I'm extremely upset about the "new" rate plans. It's screwing over TiVo's existing customer base. It seems that they only care about grabbing in more customers and hooking them @ the commitment.
I haven't taken the DT out of the box yet, and I'm still contemplating returning it. As of now though, I'm leaning towards transferring the account to keep my $12.95 fee, and paying $120 for the DT (I had gift cards from the holidays).

Any other suggestions?

thanks ahead of time
I agree with everything you say.

But if you crunch the numbers, pay the $299 for 3 years of service. Don't think of it as a 3 year commitment. Do it like this: $299/$12.95 = 23.08. Think of it as a free year after effectively paying $12.95 a month for almost 2 years. Or do it like this: $299/$19.95 = 14.98. Think of it as a free 1 1/2 years after $19.95 for 1 1/2 years. And the bonus is your existing unit could be kept on your account and would drop to $6.95/month.

If coming up with $299 up front just isn't possible for you, get the rebate on the unit and add the unit to your account with a 3-year commitment but keep your existing unit at $12.95/month. The new unit will qualify for the multi-unit discount and with a 3-year commitment that'll be just $6.95 per month. So you'll be paying $19.90/month total for both receivers.

[arkitect75]

TiVo has raised their prices for people who are unwilling to commit for a term long enough for the company to recoup their investment in the hardware. Is that what you are upset about?

You are just finishing a year of service on one discounted box, and now you are looking to get an $180 discount on a new box. A year at $12.95 is only $155. How do you expect TiVo to keep doing that for you every year? They need to know they are going to get their money back. Without a longer commitment or higher payments, the company loses money on customers like you. And hardware is only part of the expense -- it costs them money to provide the service, pay credit card fees, run the company, etc.

You have more options that most people -- you can get discounted hardware and pick a service plan that fits your needs, or you can forgo the hardware discount and keep paying $12.95 on a month-to-month basis.

We all know that these boxes are pretty cheap to MASS PRODUCE.
Phone companies survive by getting NEW customers in all the time, and allowing established ones to get various benefits of staying around.
BTW, are you getting kickbacks from TiVo? Do you work for them? If I go for the 3 yr commitment, do you get a better bonus? Seriously, as a USER you'd think that you'd be on the side of the consumer, rather than trying to back the corporation.

good luck to you Mr. Ramsay

[DonWidmore]

I agree with everything you say.

But if you crunch the numbers, pay the $299 for 3 years of service. Don't think of it as a 3 year commitment. Do it like this: $299/$12.95 = 23.08. Think of it as a free year after effectively paying $12.95 a month for almost 2 years. Or do it like this: $299/$19.95 = 14.98. Think of it as a free 1 1/2 years after $19.95 for 1 1/2 years. And the bonus is your existing unit could be kept on your account and would drop to $6.95/month.

If coming up with $299 up front just isn't possible for you, get the rebate on the unit and add the unit to your account with a 3-year commitment but keep your existing unit at $12.95/month. The new unit will qualify for the multi-unit discount and with a 3-year commitment that'll be just $6.95 per month. So you'll be paying $19.90/month total for both receivers.

I looked at it as my 180 hour unit and a 3 year committment = $468 divided by 36 months = $13 per month exactly. It would have been $10.25 per month ($368) with the smaller box.

I happened to drop two dvds off my netflix subscription, which just about equalled $13 per month, so there you go. I miss 8 movies, but get to watch the late night shows again.

Don

[ChuckyBox]

We all know that these boxes are pretty cheap to MASS PRODUCE.

We may all "know" that, but some of us have actually looked at TiVo's financial statements. The subscriber acquisition cost this year is about $260. It costs around $2/month to provide the service, so on a $12.95 sub, it takes about 24 months just to break even.

Seriously, as a USER you'd think that you'd be on the side of the consumer, rather than trying to back the corporation.
I'm on the side of reality. TiVo wouldn't have made these policies (which, no doubt, cost them customers) without a business case for doing so. And we, the consumers, don't benefit from TiVo going out of business because of bad management.


good luck to you Mr. Ramsay
There is no need to insult me like that.

[bicker]

I'm on the side of reality. This is really an important point. There is a lot of discussion about what people want and what people feel and what people hope for, but reality is what really matters.

[bmgoodman]

The subscriber acquisition cost this year is about $260.


Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?

It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.

[killzone]

Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?

It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.


Not to mention the cost should be much, much lower when dealing with an existing customer that is either buying an additional product or is swapping hardware.

[CrispyCritter]

Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?A large portion of the $260 is the hardware subsidy present on all models except the S3. It seems to cost TiVo about $160 to make and deliver an S2 (single tuner, bottom of the line). That's based on looking at costs of hardware sales in the quarterly reports over a number of years. TiVos are produced in low volume (compared to most consumer electronics you buy) and contain custom chips and hardware. They're expensive to make.

[Stormspace]

A large portion of the $260 is the hardware subsidy present on all models except the S3. It seems to cost TiVo about $160 to make and deliver an S2 (single tuner, bottom of the line). That's based on looking at costs of hardware sales in the quarterly reports over a number of years. TiVos are produced in low volume (compared to most consumer electronics you buy) and contain custom chips and hardware. They're expensive to make.

There should be a break on pricing if the user is supplying his own hardware though, since TiVo isn't subsidizing anything.

[ashu]

Swapping hardware would likely not be a ' customer acquisition' anyway.

And not all people (including former, current or wannabe customers) of ANY brand have to like ALL advertising by said brand. Duh.

[CrispyCritter]

There should be a break on pricing if the user is supplying his own hardware though, since TiVo isn't subsidizing anything.Yes, I agree the current scheme is not fair to hooking up used TiVos when compared with new TiVos. But the current policy seems to be aimed at getting as many brand new subscribers as possible, and most of them will want to go the new Tivo route.

[ChuckyBox]

Not to challenge you by any means, but could you elaborate on what makes up that $260 cost? Are they counting the millions of dollars wasted on what I consider useless commercials?
Yes, though TV commercials are a fairly small fraction of the total. In Q3 SAC was $287 to acquire each of 101K new subscriptions, or about $29 million total. Of that, about $10 million was sales and marketing expense and the rest was loss on hardware, rebates, and other channel sales incentives. The sales and marketing expense includes all fixed costs, personnel, overhead, and options expense, and never drops much below $7 million, so very little of it is likely directed at commercials (though the number will be higher in Q4).

The uselessness or usefulness of the ads needs to be judged on the response the ads generate, not on how we (who have already been converted) feel about them. In any event, TV commercials are not a big contributer to SAC.


It seems like Tivo's costs are out-of-whack for the size of its user base. I suppose they figure it will be just fine once they quadruple the base.
As with most businesses of this type, the idea is that most of the costs do not scale in direct proportion to total subscribers. But one wonders how efficiently the sales and marketing expense is being used. One can also wonder about R&D and G&A expenses, too, as they seem to rise and gobble up any margin the company generates.

[ChuckyBox]

Not to mention the cost should be much, much lower when dealing with an existing customer that is either buying an additional product or is swapping hardware.
It is lower, but since hardware subsidy and fixed marketing costs are the lion's share of SAC, the cost of adding a box to an existing sub is not going to be "much, much lower" than adding a new sub.

From the last conference call it sounds like TiVo is looking to change that equation by reducing the hardware subsidy and advertising more.

[SnakeEyes]

I want to buy another S2 but a future S3 purchase is hindering that. I don't want to pay 19.95 a month and I don't want to be locked into a contract for longer to get a cheaper price when I will have turn around and agree to another contract for the S3.

[c3]

I want to buy another S2 but a future S3 purchase is hindering that. I don't want to pay 19.95 a month and I don't want to be locked into a contract for longer to get a cheaper price when I will have turn around and agree to another contract for the S3.

Commitment is for the service, not for the box. You can get a S2 now with 3-year prepay for $299. When you get the S3 later, just change the service to the S3.

[SnakeEyes]

I just asked TiVo customer service and was told it's tied to the box and would have to get another plan for the S3.

[c3]

The TiVo CSR is wrong.

[SnakeEyes]

I just called back and spoke to another rep who said flat out "the plan is tied to the box", regardless of prepay or monthly. These are people in sales.

[c3]

Another ignorant CSR. I'm 100% sure about this. Multiple TiVo employees (TiVoStephen and TiVoJerry, I think) have confirmed it. There is even a "change service number" function in Manage Your Account, so you don't need to deal with another ignorant CSR.

[dswallow]

The plan is tied to the box if you bought the box from TiVo.com because they only sell package deals. If you bought your unit retail (or bought an S3 where there's no package deal), you should be able to move the plan around at will (though probably not to a unit you buy as part of a future package deal).

[SnakeEyes]

So if I buy through tivo.com then I am unable to transfer the plan to a S3 later but if I buy it at a store then I can transfer?

[timckelley]

Regardless of whether or not somebody thinks these new rules are simple to understand, just scanning through the Coffee House threads and seeing how many people are confused by the rules, and are still left confused even after talking to the CSRs (in some cases, multiple CSRs, and still confusion remains), I have to say something is wrong with the design of these rules.

I wonder how bombarded the CSRs are as a result of the complexities we're now dealing with. Surely it didn't have to be this complicated.

[c3]

So if I buy through tivo.com then I am unable to transfer the plan to a S3 later but if I buy it at a store then I can transfer?

You can buy the S2 from tivo.com or anywhere else. The S3 will have to be purchased from a place other than tivo.com because tivo.com only sells packages. Package just means a box and a service contract. It does not mean the service is tied to the box (other than lifetime, of course).

[dswallow]

You can buy the S2 from tivo.com or anywhere else. The S3 will have to be purchased from a place other than tivo.com because tivo.com only sells packages.
You have S2 and S3 confused. :)

[c3]

You have S2 and S3 confused. :)

No, I have not. Why?

[juanian]

Here's my question - how may people out there get a TiVo, but decide not to keep it? It must be "high", if TiVo decided to go with this complicated pricing scheme to ensure that a purchased TiVo keeps getting used.

[iceman]

I don't get it! :confused:
How could that be? How could anyone get a TiVo and NOT keep it? :)

[Chew]

My tale is just as confusing as the price changes. I hope you can follow so I can find an answer. ;)

First off, I have a Lifetime Box in addition to the below second or third box information, so Multi-Service is applying. I know everybody is also thinking "transfer the Lifetime"...sorry, no. :p

January 16, 2006 I upgraded from TiVo Basic on my Toshiba DVD Recorder to Full at $6.95/month. About three months ago, I picked up a Series 2 and transferred service to that box (leaving the Recorder back to Basic). I got a Series 3 about 4-6 weeks ago and again transferred the service from the Series 2 to the Series 3 (had I known I was getting a Series 3, I would've never gotten the 2). All the monthly charges have been $6.95.

This month I got charged $12.95 (no doubt because it's been a full year).

I'm sorry, I haven't read all 24 pages. But, I did read the TiVo terms and I'm even more confused. Do I need to call to sign-up for a 3 year commitment to bring that price down again? Because a box without a MSD at 3 years would be $4.64/month cheaper.

From what I read, the MSD reduces the monthly rate by $6, so I thought $13.95 would be the price on a monthly contract. :confused:

[c3]

Your Series3 should have stayed at $6.95/month. Are both the lifetime unit and the S3 still calling home (TiVo) from the same location? Is the lifetime unit even calling home at all?

[enthalpy]

TiVoStephen explained it already after the last round of pricing changes. I don't believe anything has changed related to this. Other people want further confirmation.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290723

Q. Can I transfer an existing monthly service-only contract or bundled service contract to new hardware? Suppose I get a box from retail or my cousin or eBay and want to switch service. Or I buy a shiny new Series3?

A. Yes. We call this a "Service Number Change" in Manage My Account and you can handle this transaction yourself at any time by going to http://www.tivo.com/manage/



Ahhh
Thanks c3. I read and read and read through these postings and I think I understand. What I wan to do is buy an S3, deactivate my 2 year old S2, using the same monthly fee ($12.95) and without buying a bundle. From several of your posts, and reading tivossteven, I think that is what I can do.

tivo.com sure doesn't help. All they say at
https://www3.tivo.com/tivo-mma/dvrchange.do
is this:

quote
You can change your TiVo Service Number online if either of these situations apply:
- You activated your DVR and then exchanged it through your retailer or through the manufacturer and now need to update the TiVo Service Number on your account
- You need to correct the TiVo Service Number that you initially activated
endquote


Well that's not what I'm doing, I haven't exactly exchanged it. I just want to swap the service to the new S3.

I guess I'll try a tivo CSR and see what they say.

[enthalpy]

You have S2 and S3 confused. :)


No, he doesn't. He just happens to be saying tivo.com only sells packages, tivo + yearly service. You can buy a box only at retail, or you can buy a box + service at tivo.com

[c3]

What I wan to do is buy an S3, deactivate my 2 year old S2, using the same monthly fee ($12.95) and without buying a bundle.

That's very simple, especially that there is no rebate for the S3. Just buy the S3 from a place other than tivo.com and change the TSN online yourself. Your S2 will be deactivated, and the S3 will take over the service at the same monthly rate.

[cheesybear]

This sucks. The pricing structure used to be simple, and the addition of service committments is just BS. The service committment is the main reason why I don't have a cell phone.

I've got an extra Tivo box, that I don't use. My mother in law wanted to try tivo, so I was going to give it to her. I assumed $12.95/mo with no commitment... but now that's no longer so. She's basically paying for a new box, even though I'm giving her my old one. The 30 day trial period isn't good enough, it'll take her longer than that to get the hang of it, and she'd forget to call before the time is up anyway, and then be locked into a contract, where she would have to pay a termination fee, even though I gave her the box in the first place? Sounds like B.S. to me... and $20 a month is not a good deal for month to month service....

I don't mind shelling out some cash for a new box, and then paying a subscription, but this business of bundling the cost of the box, with the monthly fee, and requiring a service commitment is make it hard for me to convince my friends that this is a good deal.

[bicker]

I think I said this earlier in the thread: There might not be an intersection between pricing that is acceptable to the business and pricing that is acceptable to customers. That's life.

[timckelley]

I think I said this earlier in the thread: There might not be an intersection between pricing that is acceptable to the business and pricing that is acceptable to customers. That's life.

In that situation, TiVo Corp is done for.

[bicker]

Ayup.

[retnuh47591]

I have been searching around and have not seen what will happen to the rebate after the 2/17 deadline. Will it go away? I am contemplating buying a DT box but would like to just pay the $12.95 a month with a year contract like my ST box now. I am afraid though of missing out on the deal by not buying before the 17th. Anyone know?

Thanks,

Hunter

[c3]

Rebate amount will drop after 2/17. The only deal for $12.95/1-year contract is through the refurbished DT web special, which is not valid for the rebate anyway.

[retnuh47591]

Oh, I thought the new ones were going to go down to $12.95/ 1 year contract too. I really don't want to lock in for 3 years as my job may or may not be here after this year depending on how our elections go. Looks like I have a decision to make.

[michael new]

So this thread is getting way too long,my question is probably answered but I couldn't find it.

I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?

Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?

[c3]

I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?
Depends on the length of commitment. MSD rate is $6 less than the regular monthly rate.

Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?
Yes. The rebate amount will decrease on 2/18.

[michael new]

Depends on the length of commitment. MSD rate is $6 less than the regular monthly rate.

Yes. The rebate amount will decrease on 2/18.
What do you mean length of commitment?

What do you mean decrease. Id be buying the new Tivo in March.

[c3]

Go to www.tivo.com to look at the regular monthly price plans.

Rebate will drop from the current $180 to $150, if I remember correctly.

[dswallow]

So this thread is getting way too long,my question is probably answered but I couldn't find it.

I have one Tivo Lifetime and two others 6.95 each a month, I may be purchasing a DT and adding it to my account. What is the cost of this Tivo going to be?

Also if I purchase thru a retailer will I still get my rebate?
1) To qualify for the MSD pricing, which is the least expensive, you have to buy the unit from a retailer, not from tivo.com. Tivo.com only sells package bundles.

2) Series 2 DT units you buy from a retailer are eligible for a rebate (though the specific amount apparently is being reduced in the near future, as others mentioned).

3) The MSD pricing is only applicable to monthly payment plans, not to prepaid plans. You have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and as long as you meet MSD requirements, you receive a $6 per month discount from the regular rates ($19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/month for 2 years, $12.95/month for 3 years). So that'd be $13.95/mo for 1 year, $8.95/mo for 2 years or $6.95/mo for 3 years.

[timckelley]

3) The MSD pricing is only applicable to monthly payment plans, not to prepaid plans. You have to commit to 1, 2 or 3 years of service and as long as you meet MSD requirements, you receive a $6 per month discount from the regular rates ($19.95/mo for 1 year, $14.95/month for 2 years, $12.95/month for 3 years). So that'd be $13.95/mo for 1 year, $8.95/mo for 2 years or $6.95/mo for 3 years.

And I think the lowest monthly rate you can pay under the prepaid plan, IIRC, is $299 for 3 years. So if you want the least $/month, it's best to sign up for 3 years, MSD, *not* prepaid, and get your service for $6.95/month.

[michael new]

so what if I give my Tivo to a relative paying I beleive 12.99 and transfer the service to the new Tivo it will be 6.99 right?

And 6.99 for her?

Actually I just looked at her account and this is what it says The TiVo Service Only 3 Year, Monthly .

[shippy]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but what about this:

I have two S2 (single-tuner) TiVos. If I decide to replace one of them with a new S3 TiVo, will I continue to get my $12.95/mo for one and $6.95 for the other? Is the only way to guarantee the $12.95/mo on the S3 to get the 3 year package? I kinda got the impression that it would be possible to just transfer my $12.95/mo to the new TiVo since I'm not adding a new TiVo, just replacing one, but I wasn't sure how it works.

Thanks.

[ashu]

That's my understanding as well - you'd have to call in and request a 'replacement', immediately deactivating the S2 unit and activating the S3.

[DCIFRTHS]

That's my understanding as well - you'd have to call in and request a 'replacement', immediately deactivating the S2 unit and activating the S3.


Or do the switch online at tivo.com

[Jett]

I have 2 TiVo's now, a 40 gig S2 and an 80gig Pioneer 810 with burner.
Went to re-activate 3rd box (another 40 gig S2)

Find out i have to pay $10 a month for that one.

I was willing to pay the $6.95 but not be forced into a 3 year commitment for an analog DVR that will be either outdated or dead by then.

TiVo, what are you thinking?

You have lost $84 a year income from me and possibly more if i decide to drop the other 2 and get something else. (Cable company's DVR is reasonable here)

Yeah, i know $84 a year is nothing but if more people like me don't enroll for the same reasons that i didn't enroll it WILL add up to alot of lost revenue for you.

I am truly dissapointed in you for the first time ever.

I have been a TiVo believer for years but now my enthusiasm is waning.

[c3]

I was willing to pay the $6.95 but not be forced into a 3 year commitment for an analog DVR that will be either outdated or dead by then.

3-year commitment is for the TiVo service, not any hardware. You can get a S3 next day/month/year and continue with the same service.

[AFP1]

Here's an FAQ regarding the changes to our pricing plans announced earlier this week:

TiVo Pricing Q&A
November 10, 2006


Q. What happened last Sunday and why?
A. TiVo modified its pricing plans to lower the upfront cost for its Series2TM boxes to customers. It also made TiVo pricing consistent for both tivo.com customers and retail customers.

Q. How can you justify increases in some of the service fees?
A. The overall price that a customer pays for the TiVo box and service came down in most, but not all scenarios. You can still get TiVo service for $12.95/month, but with a 3-yr commitment. The upfront price of the Series2 box was either lowered or went away completely depending on the model. You can also get a TiVo box and service for significantly less than $12.95/month when you prepay for 3 years of service. As another example, you can get a single tuner TiVo DVR with one year of service for $199 total under the new plan. Under our previous pricing, the offer would have cost a total of $224 -- $69 for the box and then $155 for one year of pre-paid service. Overall, we want to reward customers who expect to utilize the TiVo service for a longer period of time by offering discounts for multiple year commitments and prepaid plans.

Q. How does this change what I am paying today?
A. The new pricing doesn’t affect any of our current customers’ rates for boxes that they own. If you are a monthly customer today, the monthly fees on your current boxes will not change with this change in pricing. This also applies to boxes currently covered under our multi-service discount program. New pricing applies only to new boxes purchased.

Q. What happens at the end of my service commitment period?
A. At the end of the service commitment period, subscribers may be charged, on a month- to-month basis, the most current rate applicable for the term of service the subscriber has just completed. For instance, if you chose a 2-year package at $14.95/month, at the end of two years, you will be charged the monthly fee associated with a two year commitment at that new point in time. You become a month-to-month customer, unless you want to lower your price by committing to an even longer period or by taking advantage of a new promotion.

Q. What if I bought a TiVo under the previous 1 year commitment program (monthly or pre-paid options) before November 4, 2006?
A. Our current practice is to allow these subscribers to continue their service on a month- to-month basis at $12.95 / month. TiVo does, however, reserve the right, at any time, to charge the current applicable monthly fee for a one-year commitment of service, which may be higher.

Q. What happens to any boxes that I currently have under the $6.95 / month Multi-Service Discount (MSD) program?
A. Boxes currently covered under the MSD program will continue to be billed as they are today as long as the status of the account does not change and they continue to be eligible for the discount under the original program.

Q. What happens if I currently have a TiVo box eligible for the Multi-Service Discount and I add another TiVo box to my account?
A. While your existing second box is “grandfathered” at the $6.95 monthly pricing, the new third box will be subject to the new MSD pricing. In most cases, the new pricing is comparable or favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. What if I currently have only one box, but want to add a new TiVo box to my account?
A. This new second box will be billed under the new terms, which is at a $6.00 discount to your monthly bill. The base price changes depending on your commitment period. Again, in most cases, the new MSD pricing is either comparable or even favorable to the old pricing when you factor in the discounted cost of the box.

Q. Why would I consider any of the prepaid options?
A. We’ve heard from customers that some prefer to pay fees upfront rather than on a monthly basis. In order to reward customers for paying upfront, we offer a a discount off the corresponding monthly fee. For example, a three year pre-pay option $299 equates to about $8.30 / month.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Tivo is Rediculous! ( *And No, not just their useless Service Dept!)
I cannot believe that each time I look at the Tivo Website, all the Prices are different! They change Prices more than some change their Underware! It is Crazy!! I receintly purchased a 2nd Unit, an S2 DT Unit. ( I already have a Mostly-Working Humax/ Burner, *another 2 Yr. Life Expectancy Unit!) The Day before, the DT was Priced New at $39.95 with a Service Plan. I called to Order the S2 DT the very next Day, and it was then $30.00 Higher in Price! *Almost Double the Cost in less than 12 Hours!! *Now, the same thing is $99.00! ***BUT, *It was $39.00 just a couple of Months ago, *$69.00 for the past 2 Months, **AND***$39.00 Again just **Yesterday, and now Today it's *$99.00 ***AGAIN, all in just a couple Months, even Days!! A $60.00 Increase in 1 Day! C'Mon!! Almost 3 Times the Price others have Paid for the same thing?? That would make me extremely aggravated! I am Mad enough that I Paid $69.00!! You should have Honored the Price I saw the Day before. I always do with my Company if we change Prices!
Also, are you reducing the Subscription Rates for People who are already Paying Higher Subscription Prices? If not, if I was 1 of those people, I would dump your Service, and let you take me to Court for the Penalty Fee!! (You would never bother! Just Court Fee's will cost you more than the Penalty. We have our own Attorney. )
**Just get it together, and stop doing Business like the Rookies I deal with daily!
At least they have an excuse, they know nothing!! *What's your excuse??
I have been involved in Sales Marketing for Over 30 Years, I even own the Company, and never have seen any Company do things like you! **Keep it up and you won't last very long!
*Yea Big Deal, they lowered a couple of Subscription Prices!! They are only making it up with the Machine Increases. *Be careful Tivo, if people ever add up what they actually spend each Month on TV alone, if you raise Subscription Prices anymore, you will lose Business! Plus all the conflict with MSD's, your driving people nuts! Why do we need to Pay for Multi-Service anyway?? Cable, Phone and Satelite does not charge more. Why You?? No other Utility charges more if you have a larger Home, or more Rooms etc., why Tivo?? (Because you get away with it!)
It costs you no more to Supply Service to 10 Units in a Home as only 1! You only bothered to Network things to make things cheaper for your Company! But being you are the only Ball Game in Town, you get away with it! Hopefully in a Year or 2, More Competition will come about, & then you will see things change for the better!
*Just Think About It. A Person with Basic Cable Pays approx. $55.00 a Month for the Cable, a Min. of $13.00 for Tivo, plus a percentage of the DSL Fee if you want to be precise! So they are basically spending almost $100.00 a Month right now! **And that is just for Basic Cable Service! Add more Programming, and you can hit $200.00 a Month easilly!
Increase your Prices much, and Tivo will be the 1st to go! Watching TV is getting very expensive. Many people can easilly live W/O Tivo, but only get about 3 Stations if they have no Cable! And what good is Tivo W/O Cable?
You may not realize it, but you are creating more Bad Will than anything with all these Price changes! I'm sorry, but I have never seen any Product More than Double in Price overnight! I had nothing Bad I would ever even bother to write about you, until you Ripped me Off with the Price of my last Purchase!
For A lousey $30.00, you not only lost me as a Customer in the future, but you know I won't have many good things to say about your Company and it's proceedures from now on! Rebates should be issued to all who have Purchased any Unit and Sub. for More than the Lowest Price you Advertise, if Purchased within the last 3 Months. That would only be Fair to the people Paying more!
If I reduce Prices, *ALL Clients are Reduced!
*Plus, then you go and Sell that silly, Way Overpriced S3, anywhere from $599.00 to $900.00! It all depends on When you look at the Pricing! *Even the Time matters! Do you change Prices every Day, depending on how Yesterday went?? OR, Is it by the Hour? It's not worth anywhere near either Price above, as all that is different is the Tuner and a larger H/D. The HD Tuner can be Purchased seperately for Under $100.00! That Unit should Sell for No more than $299.00, and you would still Earn a nice Profit! But that's the only Unit you Profit a lot on, so I know you will continue to play your Games until more Competition comes around! Right now, you are Profiting a Ton on that Unit, and a lot of people Paid $900.00 for a $599 Unit! ( **Todays Price! Have a look. )
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having Tivo as much as the next Guy. But this is all getting Very Shady and Expensive! And as far as I am concerned, I would never purchase an S3 until the Price is realistic. And all else I have is ready to go for it! But I would never Pay $900.00 for a little better picture on a few Channels.
When they hit the 150 HD Channel Mark as promised, maybe I will then reconsider things, *IF the Price is reduced, **A LOT!! It's not worth $900 for just a few channels, and you probably only watch no more than 1/2 that are available to you! Cable only has about 9 Total! And Satelite is fading away because of all it's problems, so you could lose HD Channels there as well. Plus, Never Pay in Advance! That is the stupidest thing you could ever do!! You never use your own Money if not necessary, as all they do with it is Invest it, and Profit even more on you!
Also, with things changing so much, Who knows what will be around in 3 Years? It may make their Service Agreement Obsolete and Non-Binding.
The Value of the Dollar will be less in 3 Years, so they Invest all they can get now to Earn even more! Invest it yourself and keep your Money! Maybe even Profit from it like they do if you know how! Better yet, Stop Buying the S3!!
That will make them reduce the Price like nothing else will!!

**TIVO, Start acting like Pros! For a large Company, you Run the Operation like an Internet Newbie! (Are you sure your not Based in a Bedroom somewhere??)

[AFP1]

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.


I totally agree with Most Businesses, but not totally in this instance. Sure, most Companies raise Prices every now and then. But with Tivo, the Prices are changed almost Daily! Watch the Pricing on Both the Units as well as the Subscriptions.
I have actually seen the Prices change on the same Day once!
All that creates is Bad Feelings for the people Paying more!
Actually, Just Yesterday the 80 Hr. DT was Selling for *Only $39.00 with a Service Plan, (Just like all other Units)! But now Today, the same Unit is now $99.00! *And it was $69.00 Last Week. Are the people who Paid more being Refunded the difference on both the Units and Subs?? It should be illegal to charge different people different Prices, especially when a Higher Price is Charged to a person who just Bought his the Week before, than the Guy who has been Paying more $$ for the last Year! Kind of like Prejudice!! Prices normally go up. Tivo goes Up and Down so often, I first thought it was a YoYo Company!
But really, they more than Doubled the Unit Price overnight! Other Companies never play with Pricing like they do. They all know it only gets people annoyed if they Paid more just Yesterday, and the Price is much lower Today! Yes, most Stores may do that a couple of times a Year, but not Weekly like Tivo!!
You also need to remember that Tivo is on the Bottom of the "TV Viewing Food Chain"! Sure, we all love them at their current Price, but how would you feel if they raised the Subscription Prices by 5 Times Tomorrow? How about 3
Times??
I know that Tivo would be the 1st thing to go! Anyone can live W/O Tivo, but in most areas of the Country, W/O Cable, you only get about 3 Channels. I live near Miami, and only get a couple of Channels clearly using an Antenna. So which do you feel will be done away with 1st to save Money?
Realistically, *W/O Cable, what good is a Tivo?
Maybe a Price Increase of a Dollar or Two after a couple of Years will go unnoticed, but if they keep playing with Prices like they are now, confusing many people as they go, they will only lose Business! Then just add a couple of competitive Companies, and Tivo will really then need to Tow the Line!
TV Today is a neccessity, as is Cable/Satelite for most viewers. But Tivo is only an Add On, Extra, Nice Toy etc, but are not necessary to Entertain yourself.
*But for right now, they have you just where they want you, and taking full advantage of every current Subscriber!! Take a close look at the S3. At times, it is being Sold for as much as $899! Anyone that would spend $900 for just a couple of HD Channels is Crazy! **No, Stupid! Maybe when the 150 HD Channel Promise ever gets here, I might purchase an S3, But **Only If the Price is no more than $350!! At $350, Tivo will still Profit a Ton!
All Businesses are created to Profit, but not to Rip People Off!
But, That's what you get when you live in a 1 Horse/Tivo Town!!

**BTW- My Home Phone, Cable, Rent, Cell Phone, Water and even Electric has not gone up in the last 3 Years, as far back as I can see in my Records. So that kind of does away with ALL Companies creating "Regular Increases!" *Except for Tivo!

[Phantom Gremlin]

AFP1, I hope you feel better. Tivocommunity has also been a great place for me to complain about TiVo.

But it really doesn't matter. TiVo has demonstrated time and time again that the behaviors you complain about are just their standard way of doing business. Those behaviors won't change until the top management is replaced or the company goes out of business.

THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!

Every time I read one of these complaints (and there have been very many recently) I'm astonished at how TiVo has been able to take the great amount of goodwill they have built up over the years and totally destroy it. To many people TiVo is now worse than their local cable company, and that's saying a lot!

[MsUnderstood]

Wow this new pricing plan is crazy!

I have 2 tivos, one with a lifetime and one with mtm @ 6.95.

I called TIVO and first begged that my lifetime be transferred to my new S3 (I know deadline is passed but I was hoping). The guy says no.

Then I say okay lets activate. He tells me I need to sign up for a 3 year commitment for the 6.95 price. I say but my other tivo is month to month for 6.95 and I want that deal.

Oh no he explains, you have to sign up for 3 years. Meanwhile, I click on the website and I could sign up a brand new account for a 3 year commitment prepaid at $299 AND get a year free --so that would be 4 years for $299. *calculator please* for a price of $6.23 / month.

SO a brand new account prepaid for 4 years would cost me $299 but a 3rd tivo in my house will cost me $333 (which actually is a bit misleading because to get that 4th year I'd have to sign up for 6 years for a total of $500.4).

What kind of crazy pricing is this?

[c3]

No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years.

[MsUnderstood]

No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years.

Ah okay, so 2 years or 3 years for 299...that is a little more logical (but their website is misleading on that).

Still moving from the old tivo days to the new corporate "sign your life over" is a bit unnerving.

[ashu]

Are you sure that the 4th year is free? I'm amazed there ahsn't been a thread about this - that is an AWESOME deal for 299!

[timckelley]

Are you sure that the 4th year is free? I'm amazed there ahsn't been a thread about this - that is an AWESOME deal for 299!

No, it's $299 for 3 years (already including the "free" year), not 4 years..

[HDTiVo]

The 4th year you are free, provided you don't continue the service.

[ashu]

.

Funny.

Delayed refresh on a thread page, and responding before checking for further responses in the interim will do that. But pointing it out leads to even more comedic situations like this - with 3 posts dealing with my repost. Joy!

The 4th year you are free, provided you don't continue the service.


Troll :p

[bicker]

**TIVO, Start acting like Pros! For a large Company, you Run the Operation like an Internet Newbie! (Are you sure your not Based in a Bedroom somewhere??)I don't know where you got the idea that TiVo was a large company. TiVo is very firmly a SMALL company -- not even a medium-sized business.... just "small".

[stevereis]

I searched the thread for this but did not find an answer (or didn't hit upon the right search terms)...

I transferred my lifetime service from an S2 to an S3 in October 2006 and also got a free year on the S2 as part of the deal. I assumed when the year was up that my S2 would revert to monthly $6.95/mo MSD pricing. I see from the Manage My Account page that my S2 is shown as 1-year, prepay.

Does anyone know or have a guess as to what happens when the year is up. Will I still get $6.95/mo, month-to-month or will I need to re-up for a service contract 1,2,3 years?

[PrimeRisk]

Not that any of us want to pay higher prices for anything, but all companies reserve the right to change their pricing at the end of whatever contract you have. Can you imagine signing up for cable, satellite, a cell phone, or any other monthly service and not ever seeing a price increase? Doesn't happen.

Funny thing, guaranteed pricing is actually the focus of one of Qwest's offerings now. They are offering "price for life" guarantees on DSL products. If you give them a 2 year commitment, they guarantee they won't raise the price....ever.

I am so very glad that I am with D* and the remaining SA TiVos I have are Lifetime. It is very unlikely that I'll ever buy another SA TiVo because I can't get lifetime and I'm unwilling to commit to 3 years of service to get a reasonable price on service. If I could still get $6.95/month service on month to month associated with my lifetime units, it might be a go, but not otherwise.

I'm planning on sticking with D*, my existing TiVos and the HR-20. The HR-20 DVR isn't TiVo, but it is free to me and a S3 would run me roughly $1000 for the next 3 years (purchase plus service).

I hope this new business model works out for TiVo.

[PrimeRisk]

I searched the thread for this but did not find an answer (or didn't hit upon the right search terms)...

I transferred my lifetime service from an S2 to an S3 in October 2006 and also got a free year on the S2 as part of the deal. I assumed when the year was up that my S2 would revert to monthly $6.95/mo MSD pricing. I see from the Manage My Account page that my S2 is shown as 1-year, prepay.

Does anyone know or have a guess as to what happens when the year is up. Will I still get $6.95/mo, month-to-month or will I need to re-up for a service contract 1,2,3 years?

When I looked into the lifetime transfer offer I asked the question and it would be based on the commitment level. The MSD pricing is no longer $6.95, it is a $6 discount off of regular. So if you commit to:

1 year you get $6 off of $19.95 = $13.95/month
2 years you get $6 off of $14.95 = $8.95/month
3 years and you get $6 off $12.95 = $6.95/month
0 years and you get a lovely tin box to prop open your door with

This is killing the value of the S2 TiVos... I'm buying NIB 40 hour TiVos off of Craig's list for $30 (max). I offer $15 for unsubbed boxes. I'm parting them out. I'm getting ~$15 for the remote, $15 for the cable set, $20 for the powersupply, and $20 for the HDD with an image that matches your box. As a package you can't sell the darn things, but people always need parts for their broken lifetime boxes.

[rdrrepair]

...It is very unlikely that I'll ever buy another SA TiVo because I can't get lifetime and I'm unwilling to commit to 3 years of service to get a reasonable price on service. If I could still get $6.95/month service on month to month associated with my lifetime units, it might be a go, but not otherwise.You are thinking the same thing I am. If they had MRV enabled I would have gone for another S3.

It's funny, when I got my first box (Sony SVR2000) I had a hard time justifying a lifetime purchase. Now, I wouldn't dream of one without lifetime.

[ginaf20697]

My poor Tivo **** the pit today after we lost power and I'm totally torn on what to do. I would love a new unit but the price for service just kills me when the old one has lifetime. I'm still debating on whether I should just get an upgrade kit plus I'm going through Tivo withdrawal :(

[c3]

My poor Tivo **** the pit today after we lost power

Don't run any device with hard drive without UPS.