HDs in the clear and S3

[drowe]

First, I don't understand everything I know, so my conclusions are suspect but I think I have a valid question in any case.

I have cable that supplies me with analog, digital and HD programming. If I take the coax out of the wall and plug it directly into my Trinitron XBR without a cable card and ask it to find all the channels it can find, I end up with all analog and SD digitals and many of the HDs. This leads me to conclude that all digitals and at least some of the HDs are being supplied to me in the clear.

My question, then, is if I hook up an S3 the same way as I've described (direct to cable and no cable cards) and I didn't care about the missing HDs, would it work the same way as if I has cable cards?

Note that when my TV dips into HDs during a channel search, it lists them as channels and subchannels, not like channels on the line up card. I see 102.2 and 104.1 and so forth when I tune to these channels on the TV.

Thanks.

[ah30k]

The problem that the TiVo has is mapping those 102.2 and 104.1 to the published lineups. The only way to currently do that is with CableCARDs. You could hunt around and manually tune those digital channels on your S3 without CableCARDS but it is not a very TiVo like experience.

With the CableCARD you would be able to get all of the TiVo guide data, season passes, wishlists etc. Not sure I answered your question though.

This is the reason (channel mapping) TiVo states that you need CableCARDs for HD even though they are transmitted in the clear.

[Stevesreed]

If you know the channel numbers of the clear HD channels, is there any way to map them to known channels, so I can recode shows off them?

I cannot figure out how to do that from the menus. I'd rather not have to pay for digital cable and cable cards at this point, OTA + basic cable and free HD locals is all I need right now.

[ah30k]

If you know the channel numbers of the clear HD channels, is there any way to map them to known channels, so I can recode shows off them?No, sorry.

While the S3 certainly could do this from a technical perspective , it likely would not provide a user experience consistent with what the company stands for. For instance, the local headend can change the channel/sub-channel mapping at their whim causing people to get screwed up recordings. There would be people who would then think that the TiVo messed up.

[Saxion]

Megazone's review and FAQ (which he developed with direct input from TiVo) states that "TiVo is looking into the possibility to provide mapping in the future."

So no, you cannot do this today, and there's no guarantee TiVo will ever add this feature, but they are considering it.

As I've stated before, I won't buy a DVR without this feature...it's that important to me. If doing it "through the front door" in an easily-accessible menu is too likely to result in a "bad user experience" by people who don't know what they are doing, then TiVo could hide it and make it accessible as a back-door feature just like dozens of other TiVo features and settings (30-second skip...)

[snathanb]

I'd rather not have to pay for digital cable and cable cards at this point

So shoot me if I'm painting this in the wrong light, but are you not essentially asking the members of this forum to help you steal a level of cable service you aren't paying for?

[ah30k]

So shoot me if I'm painting this in the wrong light, but are you not essentially asking the members of this forum to help you steal a level of cable service you aren't paying for?No, HD channels are allowed to be received by anyone with basic cable. It is not stealing.

[Dajad]

Drowe, section 4 of my "Using the S3 in Canada" blog post answers all the possible questions you haver about how TiVo works with in-the-clear QAM:

http://daledietrich.com/imedia/2006/10/15/using-tivo-series-3-in-canada/

(scroll down a bit)

...Dale

[cbordman]

How come our TVs can map these channels with no problem, but the Tivo can't?

[greg_burns]

How come our TVs can map these channels with no problem, but the Tivo can't?

Actually your Tivo can as well. Just punch in the channel number. You can even setup manually recordings off them. The problem is the guide data (the heart of Tivo) only knowns about the cable channel number.

Or do you mean that your TV knowns what the channel identifier is? Not sure about that myself.

[Redux]

So shoot me if I'm painting this in the wrong light, but are you not essentially asking the members of this forum to help you steal a level of cable service you aren't paying for?There are societies in which what you just did could be punished severely. I'd go a little slower on the first stones, if for no other reason than to verify a target worthy of your law enforcement activities.

[drowe]

The problem that the TiVo has is mapping those 102.2 and 104.1 to the published lineups. The only way to currently do that is with CableCARDs. You could hunt around and manually tune those digital channels on your S3 without CableCARDS but it is not a very TiVo like experience.

With the CableCARD you would be able to get all of the TiVo guide data, season passes, wishlists etc. Not sure I answered your question though.

This is the reason (channel mapping) TiVo states that you need CableCARDs for HD even though they are transmitted in the clear.
Indeed. Thanks.

So shoot me if I'm painting this in the wrong light, but are you not essentially asking the members of this forum to help you steal a level of cable service you aren't paying for?
Bang.

Drowe, section 4 of my "Using the S3 in Canada" blog post answers all the possible questions you haver about how TiVo works with in-the-clear QAM:

[nifty URL removed because I can't put URLs in my messages with <5 posts]

(scroll down a bit)

...Dale
Thanks!

How come our TVs can map these channels with no problem, but the Tivo can't?
My TV can receive them, but it doesn't map the digital channel to a line up channel. It seems that only the cableco box or cable cards can do that with the raw data.

There are societies in which what you just did could be punished severely. I'd go a little slower on the first stones, if for no other reason than to verify a target worthy of your law enforcement activities.
It's okay; no harm done. For clarity, I am paying for the HDs and a box rental to receive all of them. It just happens that some of them do not require the box to be displayed by my TV.

Thanks everyone.

[classicsat]

So shoot me if I'm painting this in the wrong light, but are you not essentially asking the members of this forum to help you steal a level of cable service you aren't paying for?

Since the channels in question themselves are not encrypted, one is strictly by the letter of the law not commiting piracy or any illegal act viewing them.

[bicker]

Indeed -- this need can be addressed by a comparatively low-risk software enhancement on TiVo's part.

[ashu]

Since the channels in question themselves are not encrypted, one is strictly by the letter of the law not commiting piracy or any illegal act viewing them.

(And now, after snathan's boo-boo) Why are you implying that this is a grey area? You can PERFECTLY LEGALLY timeshift the QAM-in-the-clear channels.

FYI.

(Shoot me if I misinterpreted you!)

[Saxion]

Not only perfectly legal, but ENCOURAGED by the FCC! This is exactly why the FCC requires that OTA rebroadcasts on cable be done in-the-clear, and without DRM flags activated. They want to ensure that everyone can easily view these channels without complication on even the most basic of cable packages. One could even say that we are doing are civic duty by viewing them... :cool:

[CrispyCritter]

Not only perfectly legal, but ENCOURAGED by the FCC! This is exactly why the FCC requires that OTA rebroadcasts on cable be done in-the-clear, and without DRM flags activated. They want to ensure that everyone can easily view these channels without complication on even the most basic of cable packages. One could even say that we are doing are civic duty by viewing them... :cool:Do you have a quote for exactly what's required for OTA local rebroadcasts? My local Comcast does broadcast the video unencrypted, but doesn't have any audio on those stations without a cablecard.

[ashu]

Do you have a quote for exactly what's required for OTA local rebroadcasts? My local Comcast does broadcast the video unencrypted, but doesn't have any audio on those stations without a cablecard.

Are you SURE? Have you checked the local HDTV thread on avsforums? I bet someone would have complained and had this travesty corrected long before now. I believe there's evena Comcast rep. who occasionally chimes in in the DC thread.

[bicker]

This is exactly why the FCC requires that OTA rebroadcasts on cable be done in-the-clear, and without DRM flags activated. They want to ensure that everyone can easily view these channels without complication on even the most basic of cable packages. "In-the-clear and without DRM flags activated," however, is not the same as "without complication [of] even the most basic of cable packages".

[davezatz]

Do you have a quote for exactly what's required for OTA local rebroadcasts? My local Comcast does broadcast the video unencrypted, but doesn't have any audio on those stations without a cablecard.I've been getting unencrypted QAM in Montgomery County, MD for 3 years or so now with audio. No extra fees and no calls to Comcast. Heck, even if I called they'd probably have no idea what I was talking about. The channel locations periodically change, but it works. Can't map it with TiVo though...

Drowe, section 4 of my "Using the S3 in Canada" blog post answers all the possible questions you haver about how TiVo works with in-the-clear QAM:

"the cable companies could always choose to defeat this process by encrypting hitherto unencrypted channels."
There *may* (it's debatable) be a requirement in the US to always rebroadcast the OTA networks *without* encryption.

Like megazone, TiVo also told me manually mapping is something they'd consider, but it didn't sound like this was a current priority. They made it clear to me the S3 is a CableCARD device first, so I wouldn't count on anything in the near future (or ever).

[CrispyCritter]

Are you SURE? Have you checked the local HDTV thread on avsforums? I bet someone would have complained and had this travesty corrected long before now. I believe there's evena Comcast rep. who occasionally chimes in in the DC thread.Yes, I'm sure it was happening then; I'm not sure it's happening now since to test it would mean removal of cablecards. Before I had cablecards, I did a channel scan and then went through all 457 channels it found, just to see what I could get. I found about 70 music channels with both sound and video, the Mhz channels with both, and a number of channels of video only, which seemed to be a couple of networks plus TNT. I didn't check to see if they were HD versions. If there's somebody who can check, I found video but no audio on: 82-10, 92-01, 94-11, 100-10, 111-1

Note this only applies to the QAM "uncorrected" channels on an analog only account. I have no problems now that I have cablecard and digital service.

I searched the AVS thread; I found several people who couldn't get them in Montgomery County and were asking, but nobody responded that they could get them (One person said he was able to get one channel doing something non-standard (his channels scans didn't find them) but hasn't given us details yet). This is in the past 6 months; evidently Comcast went to ADS about then and changed things.

Hmmm. One thought - since I didn't have digital service, could it be that the TiVo didn't do a full channel scan, or that Comcast is blocking higher channels? All channels it found were under 121. (This was pre-QAM mapping, I don't know what the full range is there. At about channel 120, I got Comcast service channels that others have reported at 998 post mapping).

So the most I can say is the TiVo didn't find the HD channels with audio; Comcast might be outputting them someplace the TiVo channel scan didn't find.

[CrispyCritter]

davezatz,
Our posts crossed as I was checking things.

Could you give me a couple fo channel numbers for the HD locals? I'll check the next time I can.

[davezatz]

davezatz,
Our posts crossed as I was checking things.

Could you give me a couple fo channel numbers for the HD locals? I'll check the next time I can.

When I get home I'll type in my channel numbers from the cheat sheet on our coffee table. :) We used QAM (prior to digital cable and CableCARDs) because I couldn't get a good HD ABC OTA signal (a must-have for Lost and college football).

[davezatz]

Unencrypted QAM in Montgomery County, MD:
103-1, CBS
103-11 - 103-14, PBS
105-1, WB
105-3, FOX
108-1, NBC
108-11, ABC

The last time I used them was early Sept.

[vstone]

NOt all QAM tuners are created equal. When investigating a QAM tuner in a new TV that picked up some HD locals, but not others, I initially assumed that it was a problem at the cable company. Some channels had cable box numbers (801, 802, 805, 820, etc.) and some wen't there at all. Additionally there were 3 or 4 QAM SD channeks that I could get, but were not assigned a cable box like number. They showed up as 92-004, etc.

In doing research I found a thread somewhere where somebody noted that different clear QAM STB's seemed to act differntly than others. He hooked up several STB' to the same physical cable coax and discovered that they picked up varying channels. The LG 4200a apparently picked them all up. Possibly even the firmware version affected the results.

Some folks have picked up channles with their S3. Before I installed cablecards, my S3 picked up 16 channel "0"s.

The Tv I was testing would usually, but not always pick up TNT-HD.

I suspect both the hardware and the cable companies are at fault. Are these things being tested in Tiawan or China?

[ashu]

NOt all QAM tuners are created equal

While you make a good point, this is absolutely moot on the S3. All S3 QAM tuners BETTER be created equal.

Hence the attempts to debug CrispyCritter's issues with what seems to be a known-working-with-S3-in-mode-being-discussed cable provider.

[CrispyCritter]

Unencrypted QAM in Montgomery County, MD:
103-1, CBS
103-11 - 103-14, PBS
105-1, WB
105-3, FOX
108-1, NBC
108-11, ABC

The last time I used them was early Sept.Thanks! I was certainly scanning that range of channels; for whatever reason I didn't get them. The next time I have to do something with the cablecards I'll explore this a bit more. (I don't know any way to test without taking out the cablecards, and possibly running guided setup again. After just getting it working, a month after receiving my initial S3, I (and my family!) want to enjoy it a bit before experimenting.)

My notes say that I got FOX with no audio at 92-1 (actually, the notes say 92-01 so I'm not positive whether that's 92-1 or 92-10.) That's evidently a different FOX than the HD one you have at 105-3.

[vstone]

While you make a good point, this is absolutely moot on the S3. All S3 QAM tuners BETTER be created equal.

Hence the attempts to debug CrispyCritter's issues with what seems to be a known-working-with-S3-in-mode-being-discussed cable provider.But I would say that unless you were hooked to the same plant, not just the same company, troubleshooting could be fruitless.

[JimPa]

Does the program guide that downloads have code in addition to the qam channels that affects reception?

[classicsat]

Does the program guide that downloads have code in addition to the qam channels that affects reception?

There isn't any way there could be.

[davezatz]

But I would say that unless you were hooked to the same plant, not just the same company, troubleshooting could be fruitless.

Based on Crispy's location, before I moved I was probably within 2-3 miles from him. Since I've moved (5 miles or so south) my QAM lineup stayed the same. Either way, I think he's smart to not mess with QAM since his CableCARDs are working. I tried going the QAM and OTA route at first, but moved onto CableCARDs. Considering how Comcast continues to bungle my account (channel lineup and billing) I may go back to OTA for HD.

[gbrown]

I have split my cable and run one side through my Series 3 w/CableCards and the other dirrectly into my Sony Bravia. The QAM channels come in just fine on the TV. That way I can record 2 and watch a third. It does take the Sony about 45 minutes to scan the channels. It then took me about another half hour to deseltct all the channels I didn't want (digital audio, etc.). But it is worth it

[jlb.x]

Unencrypted QAM in Montgomery County, MD:
103-1, CBS
103-11 - 103-14, PBS
105-1, WB
105-3, FOX
108-1, NBC
108-11, ABC

The last time I used them was early Sept.
I've been searching for this info for a while now, and I probably should have known that someone here would have it. ;)

I'm planning on trying these channels with my Elgato Hybrid + EyeTV 2 in the near future.