TiVo Scalar Quaity

[mbcook]

I wondering what you guys think of the scalar in the the series 3 (for when you lock it at 720p, for example). My little sister commented that my HDTV didn't look that great, and after a little thinking I realized she was somewhat right. So I turned my TiVo from 720p to pass-through to let my TV do the scaling (from 1080i to 720p).

The picture is now MUCH sharper.

It seems the processor in my Sony TV (KDL-32S2010) is much better at scaling (down at least) than the TiVo is.

What have your experiences with your series 3 TiVos been?

[Dan203]

I've seen some minor bluring on certain channels, but nothing I can't live with. I don't like Native mode because it takes my TV 10+ seconds to switch resolutions, which is very annoying.

Dan

[mbcook]

It seemed pretty noticeable to me. I'll have to fiddle with it later this week or this weekend to see just how different it really is.

I may do what you say though, because it takes my TV about 5 seconds and during that the video is corrupted (it's not just black or something like that). That's why I went to 720p fixed in the first place.

[ThreeSoFar'sBro]

I've seen some minor bluring on certain channels, but nothing I can't live with. I don't like Native mode because it takes my TV 10+ seconds to switch resolutions, which is very annoying.

Dan


+1

[jfh3]

My Sony switches pretty fast (maybe 2 seconds), so I keep the Tivo in native mode.

[hookbill]

My Sony switches pretty fast (maybe 2 seconds), so I keep the Tivo in native mode.

I've seen that mentioned about Sony a few times. My Sony works great in Native Mode.

[Aiken]

Agreed on the Sony. My XBR2 switches in under two seconds, and does a vastly superior job of scaling.

I suspect the scaler in the TiVo is a pure scaler and does nothing clever like the scalers in high-end TVs, external scalers, and upconverting DVD players. It's just a necessarily evil TiVo had to include to cover their bases; it's not anything special.

[ashu]

I'm looking forward to testing mine ... My Sceptre 1080P TV has an OK deinterlacer but a bad 720P scaler, but switches between resolutions in (WAY) less than a second (I've tested it with my HDMI upconverting DVD player)

I am not surprised that a Sony scfales better than the TV, but I'd be stunned if the TV were to be worse than my Sceptre :)

<EDIT> Ohh, all you folks talking about the TV having a better scaler ... you need to mention
a. Your TV's native resolution
b. The relative PQ differences between Native, TiVo set to 720P fixed and TiVo set to 1080i fixed!

(I'm sure you don't need me to say this, but FYI) You shouldn't scale TWICE, just once ... unless you can't avoid it! And 90% of the HD channels are 1080i anyway.

[HDTiVo]

Back in the day when I was a contributor to the forum, I'd do a serious discussion of the 237 variables and assumptions involved in this issue.

The conclusion would be simple and obvious: use the S3 when its better; use the TV when its better.

[dcstager]

Are there any LCD sets that do not have to scale - that actually have the available resolution to display HDTV? I see a lot of 1280x768 models, but that's not quite 1080 right? What exactly is the top resolution I should be looking for in the specs for a TV?

[wackymann]

AFAIK, I can't use native because my TV (Samsung DLP) doesn't accept 480i on the input I'm using. It only accepts 480p, 720p, and 1080i on the HD component inputs.

[AbMagFab]

AFAIK, I can't use native because my TV (Samsung DLP) doesn't accept 480i on the input I'm using. It only accepts 480p, 720p, and 1080i on the HD component inputs.

Isn't that what the "Hybrid" modes are for?

And my Sony SXRD switches fast, like 1-2 seconds, so I use Native and love it - slightly better picture than when I was fixed at 1080i.

[Dan203]

Unfortunately the hybrid modes force you to choose a resolution for HD as well. What TiVo needs is a check list type system where you select the resolutions that your TV can display. It then can then convert the native signal to whatever resolution best suits your display. Or at the very least a Native/Hybrid mode which sends HD in native mode and all 480 content at 480p.

Dan

[timdorr]

Unfortunately the hybrid modes force you to choose a resolution for HD as well. What TiVo needs is a check list type system where you select the resolutions that your TV can display. It then can then convert the native signal to whatever resolution best suits your display. Or at the very least a Native/Hybrid mode which sends HD in native mode and all 480 content at 480p.

Dan

Problem is, a lot of people probably have no idea what their TV displays. HD is just HD to them, not 720p or 1080i. So, you start throwing these numbers at them and they just want to choose an option and be done with it.

Or, if you're like me, you don't want to have to worry about that kind of thing, even if you know what it means. The reason I'm using a Tivo over an equivalent home-build media center (which I'm certainly capable of building and have in the past) is so that it's simply a box you plug in and it does it's thing. That's it. So, customizing certain display modes and that sort of thing don't interest me.

I just leave it in 1080i Fixed and let it manage what's coming in. No flashing on the TV. The OSD and guide stay in a consistent position. And hell, I think the Tivo does a slightly better job of upscaling.

The only thing I would like is a panorama-style aspect option. I know it bothers some people, but I like it.

[classicX]

Can you add an option for "I don't have an S3" for those if us who don't want to screw up the poll just picking a random option to see the results without having to click the link and therefore saving the energy for the ride / drive home and subsequent TV viewing before going to sleep?

[snathanb]

Ironically, I have a native 1080i set and everything looks better when I set the Tivo on 720p... even 1080i programming.

[TexasGrillChef]

After trying it out on multiple TV's

Here is what I have to say... It really all depends on who makes the TV & the model of TV and what you prefer to live with.

My Livingroom TV takes about 5 seconds to switch resolutions and is very annoying. 720p on the TV is better. However, the S3 does a better job then my TV upconverting from 480i/p to 1080i.

My recomendation for anyone is to try it with your TV in all modes to see which you prefer and like best. Some TV's are worse, some are better, then you have to deal with "Switching" and even there some TV's are better some are worse.

Try it for yourself and see which you like better

TexasGrillchef

[yunlin12]

Westinghouse 42" 1080p set, I use 1080i fixed, Native doesn't work since the TV does not like 480i on HDMI. Any of the 720p fixes/hybrid makes no sense since 1080i material would have to go through 1080i->720p->1080p scaling. So the choice is only between 1080i fixed or hybrid, and it's only in SD, whether the TV gets 1080i or 480p. I don't see much of difference here really, so I stuck with 1080i fixed to save the switching time on TV, even though the Westy is pretty fast.

Also, when I watch stuff on ABC (Lost) or ESPN (baseball), I don't really notice any big difference if I send the signal to the TV in 720p or 1080i, so the TV does a good job of scling HD content to 1080.

[Shawn95GT]

I have a stupid HDTV.

It's a 720p set that doesnt' accept a 720p input.... so I'm always scaling unless it's a 720p broadcast via the on-board ATSC tuner.

1080i from the S3 looks better than 720p on my set - probably because of the double scaling. I use 1080i hybrid.

[bkdtv]

The scaling in the Series3 is handled by the two-year-old BCM7038. Unfortunately, the scaling of this video processor is not particularly good.

Broadcom offers improved scaling performance in its more recent products, although for the ultimate in SD/HD deinterlace and scaling performance, you will need a dedicated per-pixel solution like the Lumagen Radiance with the Gennum VXP GF9450 (http://www.gennum.com/ip/vxp_technology.html) (press release (http://www.gennum.com/newsroom/pdfs/GF9450_News_Release_Sept_14_06.pdf), image (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/x3els/DSC00104.jpg)).

Next year, more high-definition displays will offer such performance. If you don't plan to upgrade your TV anytime soon, but can't afford to spend $2000+ on a dedicated scaler, then the easiest way to upgrade your picture quality may be through the purchase of a new home theater receiver next year. Next year, you'll see a number of HDMI 1.3 receivers that integrate high-performance per-pixel scaling and deinterlace solutions from Gennum (http://www.gennum.com/ip/vxp_technology.html) and Silicon Optix (http://www.siliconoptix.com/home.cfm?CFID=&CFTOKEN=9f08a2721ecc0d0-61C23143-7E90-E2A3-B8B39D8950E0B1E7) (Teranex).

[AbMagFab]

Can you add an option for "I don't have an S3" for those if us who don't want to screw up the poll just picking a random option to see the results without having to click the link and therefore saving the energy for the ride / drive home and subsequent TV viewing before going to sleep?

There's a "View Results" link at the bottom exactly for this purpose. Look more closely next time.

[AbMagFab]

Unfortunately the hybrid modes force you to choose a resolution for HD as well. What TiVo needs is a check list type system where you select the resolutions that your TV can display. It then can then convert the native signal to whatever resolution best suits your display. Or at the very least a Native/Hybrid mode which sends HD in native mode and all 480 content at 480p.

Dan

Okay, so people need to get better HD TV's. Sony has a very nice line of very reliable 1080p HD TV's with beautiful picture quality.

If you want to play in this space, be prepared to spend bucks until it settles down. We're at the tail end of the early adopter phase.

[Dan203]

I've only had my TV for a year and a half, and I paid almost two grand for it. I don't know about you, but I can't really afford to replace a $2K TV ever 18 months just because technology changes.

As for those people complaining about just wanting it to work and not understanding the various modes.... A more robust collection of choices wouldn't force you to understand anything. In fact, out of the box the TiVo would work exactly as it does today. You'd only have to mess with the options if you wanted to have more control over how it works.

Or at the very least the Native mode should up all 480 content to 480p, since 99% of TVs can't do 480i via HDMI.

Dan

[bkdtv]

Or at the very least the Native mode should up all 480 content to 480p, since 99% of TVs can't do 480i via HDMI.Another vote for that!

[AbMagFab]

I've only had my TV for a year and a half, and I paid almost two grand for it. I don't know about you, but I can't really afford to replace a $2K TV ever 18 months just because technology changes.

As for those people complaining about just wanting it to work and not understanding the various modes.... A more robust collection of choices wouldn't force you to understand anything. In fact, out of the box the TiVo would work exactly as it does today. You'd only have to mess with the options if you wanted to have more control over how it works.

Or at the very least the Native mode should up all 480 content to 480p, since 99% of TVs can't do 480i via HDMI.

Dan
Well, then don't be an early adopter, otherwise you'll suffer with these kinds of issues.

And 100% of my HD TV's support 480i over HDMI, and I'm pretty sure 100% of Sony HDTV's for at least the last 3+ years support 480i over DVI/HDMI. And Sony has been the #1 HDTV brand (non-CRT) for almost that entire period.

Pretty sure you're very wrong about 480i support, but yes, the cheaper HDTV's probably don't support it.

[rodalpho]

Yes, and because we didn't pay extra for the sony name we deserve what we get? Because all of your televisions support it, everybody's must? Is that what you're arguing?

My HDTV doesn't support 480i over HDMI, and quite a few other people here have the same issue. Rather than arguing against a feature that doesn't impact you in any way, why not just move on to the next thread?

[AbMagFab]

Yes, and because we didn't pay extra for the sony name we deserve what we get? Because all of your televisions support it, everybody's must? Is that what you're arguing?

My HDTV doesn't support 480i over HDMI, and quite a few other people here have the same issue. Rather than arguing against a feature that doesn't impact you in any way, why not just move on to the next thread?
I'm arguing against what I quoted - he said 99% don't support it. This just isn't true. Sony's support it, and have for 3+ years, and they have been the #1 HD TV's for the same time period. Ergo, most HD TV's in fact do support 480i over HDMI.

Ergo, it's a issue for a minority of folks.

While it's a nice feature for them to add, they have to prioritize issues based on the people that will benefit (among other things). This one is effects a small group, albeit it's easy to fix.

My other point is that early adopters really can't complain when they have issues as a result. Technology changes too fast, especially before it's mainstream.

[Aiken]

Or at the very least the Native mode should up all 480 content to 480p, since 99% of TVs can't do 480i via HDMI.
I'd be really annoyed if they did that, because progressive mode turns off the clever bits of my 480->1080 scalar.

Another mode, sure, but don't change native.

[Aiken]

Really, they just need a "Custom" setting that pops up a list of formats, probably just 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i, and then for each of those formats, you say what output format you want for it. It's a no-brainer as far as UI design goes, and can't be hard to backfit into the scaler selection code.

[tivotivotivo]

Anyone have any experience with scaling and the Samsung HL-S4666W 46" DLP HDTV.

This is the HDTV I am currently looking at to buy with my new Tivo HD.

thanks.

[Dan203]

I'm arguing against what I quoted - he said 99% don't support it. This just isn't true. Sony's support it, and have for 3+ years, and they have been the #1 HD TV's for the same time period. Ergo, most HD TV's in fact do support 480i over HDMI.

First off when I said 99% of HDTVs don't support 480i over HDMI, I was talking about 99% of available models. Not 99% of HDTVs in US homes.

Secondly just because Sony is the #1 HDTV manufacturer doesn't mean that Sony TVs account for the majority of HDTVs in homes. There are literally hundreds of HDTV manufacturers. Sony could easily be #1 while holding just a small percentage of the total market. For example say Sony held 10% of the market, while 90 other manufacturers held 1% each. That would make Sony the HDTV leader, but 90% of HDTVs in the market would still be non-Sony. Now of course those numbers are made up, but you see my point. Just because Sony is #1, does not mean that most people own a Sony.

Dan

[Agent86]

I'd be really annoyed if they did that, because progressive mode turns off the clever bits of my 480->1080 scalar.

Another mode, sure, but don't change native.
Agreed. 100%

I'm using the native setting, happen to have a Sony TV, and like the TV doing all the scaling work.

That said, you never know what your next TV is going to be, or if Sony will change the behavior in future models. Plus, there is clearly a lot of folks here who's TVs won't do 480i over HDMI.

For folks who have sets that don't do it, I would certainly complain to your manufacturer. You need to let them know that you value that as a feature. However, other then telling them what to do in the future, it would have limited returns on your existing TV.

As such, I'd like a Native HD mode. The description would be Native HD displays all HD video with no conversions and SD video at 480p.

I see no reason why TiVo can't add this as an option. Feel free to use the verbiage if you want TiVo - it all yours :D

[CrispyCritter]

Okay, so people need to get better HD TV's. Sony has a very nice line of very reliable 1080p HD TV's with beautiful picture quality.

If you want to play in this space, be prepared to spend bucks until it settles down. We're at the tail end of the early adopter phase.Or you can do as I did, and get the last gasp (from the top manufacturers) of the old technology : 57" Hitachi F59.

Beautiful picture quality; stronger OTA tuner than the TIVO; I prefer its scaling to that of the TiVo's, and I stay in native mode since it's only a 2 second delay when changing scales (and I've been doing a LOT of channel changes in the past couple of days as you may know from reading other threads).

I strongly prefer the Hitachi's 4:3 expansion mode over the TiVo's, and not being able to take advantage of it without having to fiddle on a channel change is a drawback of the TiVo.

The wow factor and the aesthetics of the Hitachi when turned off are definitely much poorer than the LCD's and plasma. But while I'm willing to pay a high price for better performance and functionality (as witness my collection of TiVos over the years!), I'm not willing to pay a high price for turned off aesthetics and bragging rights. For the price of a large Sony 1080p, I can get the Hitachi, a couple of TiVo S3's, upgrade my DVD player, and still have money left over - all differences I can actually notice while watching TV!

The supporting electronics from the top three or so manufacturers is better than that from others; if you get it in new technology you will pay for it! But it does make a difference.

[SeanC]

I wish there was an option for :

"I'm not sure/I can't tell"

I tested 720p fixed last night for shiggles and it certainly fixed the screen change flicker issue. After watching 720p for awhile I switched back to native. I can't tell you what I saw that was different but it seemed like my TV's scaler was better.

[AbMagFab]

Anyone have any experience with scaling and the Samsung HL-S4666W 46" DLP HDTV.

This is the HDTV I am currently looking at to buy with my new Tivo HD.

thanks.

At 46", unless you sit like 6 feet from the TV, you won't notice anything anyway. Plus, it's a 720p native set, so you really only have one HD option - 720p. Makes sense that you'd set it on fixed 720p. The difference for SD will be zero.

[AbMagFab]

First off when I said 99% of HDTVs don't support 480i over HDMI, I was talking about 99% of available models. Not 99% of HDTVs in US homes.

Secondly just because Sony is the #1 HDTV manufacturer doesn't mean that Sony TVs account for the majority of HDTVs in homes. There are literally hundreds of HDTV manufacturers. Sony could easily be #1 while holding just a small percentage of the total market. For example say Sony held 10% of the market, while 90 other manufacturers held 1% each. That would make Sony the HDTV leader, but 90% of HDTVs in the market would still be non-Sony. Now of course those numbers are made up, but you see my point. Just because Sony is #1, does not mean that most people own a Sony.

Dan

But you'd have to agree that Sony accounts for way more than 1%. In fact, one figure I saw a year or so ago was that Sony accounted for more than a third of HD TV's in US homes.

And there aren't hundreds of HD TV manufacturers in the US. Less than 10 account for nearly all HDTV's, with 3 or 4 accounting for more than 80%.

[tivotivotivo]

Thanks AbMagFab!