MFSRestore reports errors

[gjwell]

Hi,

Just thought I would post some findings in case any other users are having the same problems as me :)

My Tivo disk died last week (well I may have helped it along  ). I decided to purchase a new disk and install the LBA48 Kernel to give more recording space.

I obtained some Tivo images, and this is where my problems started.

I tried a total of 4 separate images. A basic 40g, 120g and a 300. all failed in various ways with both Restore and MFSRestore mainly with an error "decompression error at nn%".

I searched the forums and various people have had these errors, and there was a lot of speculation about bugs in the compression sw or PC hardware, but I found no solutions.

The next thing I tried was to run the restore on a different PC. I tried two in fact but the error appeared in the same place (93%) in my case. So I assumed PC hardware wasn't the problem. The image must be bad?

I checked the sources and got confirmation that the images were proven to be good.

So in a last ditched attempt I decided to transfer the images over to my pc via network rather than burning them on to a CD.

Last night I ran the restore again and it completed :) at last!!. So I then when on to install the cache card drivers.

Unfortunately when I plugged it back into the Tivo the cache card screen comes up and it loads the cache, I then get the green screen saying there has been a serious error and to leave Tivo on, with the phone plugged in. Then the power recycles and it starts again.

I'm not giving up yet though, I ran out of time last night. Tonight I will restore an image without the cache card drivers and try and get Tivo up before installing them.

The only trouble now is.. where did I put that modem lead :confused:


Geoff

[wscannell]

What size drive are you putting in? You might need - r 4 in the restore if a partition is over 274GB.

[gjwell]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice the drive is a 320 GB. I am still having problems. I can now build the disk, however when i put it back in to Tivo it power recycles continuously. The command I am using is as follows.

restore -x -s 300 -zpi /mnt/dos/Tivo.bak /dev/hda.

Do I need to add the -r4 into the current command, or replace the 300. I haven't managed to find out what all the switches do (yet ;) ).

I have now ordered a pre built drive as i cannot manage anymore days without Tivo. However my quest continues as I am determined to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks again for your help :)

Geoff

[Rob Nespor Bellis]

Add it to the command.

Rgds,

R.

[wscannell]

You need to add -r 4 to the command. I think the space is required. You probably need the - r 4 because your original unexpanded image size is probably less than 40GB or less.

restore -x -s 300 -r 4 -zpi /mnt/dos/Tivo.bak /dev/hda

You are also adding an LBA48 kernel to the TiVo, correct?

[gjwell]

Thanks, Im restoring now. I'll report back on how it goes. - r is not listed in the -? fir restore or MFSRestore. What does this switch do?

Thanks

Geoff

[gjwell]

wscannell

I am trying an image of an LBA48 Tivo, however if it doesn't work I will try the standard image and patch the Kernel

Geoff

[wscannell]

The -r 4 changes the blocking factor on the drive. With the default -r 2, the index runs out of allocation units at about 274GB. I believe that -r 4 doubles the blocking factor, so the maximum partition is about 548GB.

[gjwell]

Well I left the restore running last night (too tired to wait for it). This morning I added the cache card drivers and fitted the disk back in to Tivo.

After a few minutes waiting for the cache card drivers to finish caching, I got the intro video :). At last!!!. Thanks wscannell the extra switch did the trick.

I haven't had time to check recoding time yet as I set it of on a full clear down which takes an hour, and I had to leave for work.

The only thing I have noticed now is the usual Tivo sounds when pressing buttons on the peanut, don't seem to be there. The sound was present on the intro video so I know all my connections are good.

I'll run the guided setup tonight when I get home and see if all is good after an update.

Now my GF will talk to me again, and I’ve cleared out all her dodgy season passes ;)

[thechachman]

The only thing I have noticed now is the usual Tivo sounds when pressing buttons on the peanut, don't seem to be there. The sound was present on the intro video so I know all my connections are good. Good to hear, back from the dead :up:

FYI the audio when pressing remote buttons is a setup toggle defaulting to off

[gjwell]

Thanks I thought it would be something simple.

[Pete77]

I believe that -r 4 doubles the blocking factor, so the maximum partition is about 548GB.

Or presumably 822Gb if you used -r 6 to install one of Seagates 750Gb PVR specific drives as and when they become available and/or affordabale (the earlier 7200.10 750Gb Seagates apparently draw too much power according to Blindlemon).

Or -r 8 for a 1 terrabyte (1000gb) drive as and when they become available.

Much over 1 terrabyte and Now Playing will really start to slow down even with all recordings at Best or Mode 0 as a 1 terrabyte drive should give around 360 hours at Best and Now Playing doesn't seem to cope too well with over 400 programs in the list, even with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM.

[blindlemon]

-r 4 is the largest blocking factor recognised AFAIK, so formatting a 750gb drive for TiVo use could be a challenge! However, I'm not sure wscannel's figures are correct (and I can't be bothered to trawl through the threads to find out for sure), so I'll cross that bridge when I come to it :)

I also don't think I said the 750gb 7200.10's definitely draw too much power, although I may have suggested it was a possibility based on my experiences with 500gb 7200.9 drives.

I will be getting a couple of the newer DB35 (CE) 500gb drives on evaluation shortly and will post my findings. The 750gb DB35 drives are not yet available in the UK.

[Pete77]

-r 4 is the largest blocking factor recognised AFAIK, so formatting a 750gb drive for TiVo use could be a challenge! However, I'm not sure wscannel's figures are correct (and I can't be bothered to trawl through the threads to find out for sure), so I'll cross that bridge when I come to it :)

I will be getting a couple of the newer DB35 (CE) 500gb drives on evaluation shortly and will post my findings. The 750gb DB35 drives are not yet available in the UK.

But it still looks like 1000gb (360 hours at Best or probably 470 hours if VBR is enabled in Mode 0) is the maximum practical capacity of a UK Tivo S1 with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM fitted due to the unacceptable slow down in menu speeds and recording manipulation (eg deletion, backing out of recordings to Now Playing or changing Save Until date) that will occur above this level and even at this number of hours some slow down will already have begun to occur.

Of course I can see that many people may well prefer to achieve this using a single 1000Gb drive rather than two 500Gb drives if a way can be found to format it satisfactorily (probably only using the long and cumbersome methods you described for your 2 x 400Gb Seagate test unit setup) due to the alleged increase in reliability and lower total heat levels with only one drive rather than two.

Having said that I don't believe that if you fit two brand new hard drives to a Tivo at the same time instead of one that you have halved the Mean Time to Failure (MTF) of the whole Tivo machine. My reasoning here would be that any graph of a pattern of failures for a particular hard drive series fitted in a Tivo (a known predictable and constant level of wear) would surely not show a flat graph of total number of failures plotted against time but instead a bell shaped graph where most failures occur between 2 and 5 years use?

Therefore surely in the first 2 years of using two new drives the period before which an average Tivo will fail is not halved compared to using only one drive but is probably reduced by say 15 to 20%? And in the period when drives begin to fail after two years then although clearly the risk that your Tivo will die on any one day may be doubled the total Tivo lifetime is not halved because of the strong likelihood that the second drive will fail within only a few weeks or months of the first one due to the typical wear characteristics of that particular drive series?

[blindlemon]

Fitting two drives (particularly big ones) to a TiVo increases the temperature at which each drive operates as a result of the doubling of heat output from the drives. This in itself will have a negative impact on reliability.

It would be interesting to see a graph of failures plotted against time, but I doubt if such data exists for drives used in TiVos - especially large Seagate drives. IME, most drive failures are either immediate (ie. effectively DOA) or at around 13-15 months, although don't ask me why! Nevertheless drives do fail at any time, and in spite of rigorous testing, this results in a small trickle of in-warranty returns of drives anything from 2 to 12 months old. However, with the relatively small volumes I handle this is not anything like enough to infer any sensible statistics.

FWIW, the number of original 40gb TiVo drives that have failed, resulting in their owners having to buy a replacement from me, has remained fairly constant since I started selling drives nearly 3 years ago. I have not noticed a significant increase as the drives have got older - and some of them will be nearly 6 years old by now.

[Pete77]

Fitting two drives (particularly big ones) to a TiVo increases the temperature at which each drive operates as a result of the doubling of heat output from the drives. This in itself will have a negative impact on reliability

My two Samsung HA250JCs cause the Tivo to run at between a minimum of 37C in cool winter conditions but with central heating keeping the room at 21C and up to 46C on the worst day this summer and more generally 43C to 44C in hot summer weather in the middle of the day.

The previous two Quantum drives that were over four years old when replaced used to cause the Tivo to operate in a narrower temperature range between 27C and 30C most of the time.

Are you saying a single HA250JC runs a lot cooler than 37C to 44C? Also I hate to think at what hotter temperatures two large capacity Maxtors or Western Digitals might run.

My own HA250JCs are now 16 months old and I have seen a couple of blocky artefacts in the Live TV buffer lately just for a moment a couple of times. Does that suggest they are about to go then as MFSCheck and the Info function SMART reporting stuff in TivoWebPlus both say they are fine.

Depending when the drives go I can see 2x500Gb being the next logical step as about 450 hours total capacity in Mode 0 (with VBR enabled) would suit my general needs and certainly 613 hours slows down Now Playing too much. If Now Playing is still too slow with 400 or so recordings I can always turn off VBR and fall back to 350 hours (which is definitely acceptable with a Cachecard and 512MB of RAM).

Although you say a single drive is more reliable than two I have never found any real troubles with two drives and it is after all how these machines were designed to run originally. More importantly the price point of two 500Gb drives is much more attractive than a single 750Gb drive or a 1000Gb drive as and when the latter inevitably are launched on the marketplace.

[blindlemon]

No two TiVo installations are the same, even with the same drives, as even if you have them both in the same room, one is likely to be on top of the other :) Therefore it's almost impossible to predict what temperature any TiVo will run at.

However, as a general rule, I'm quite confident in saying that big 7200rpm drives generate more heat than small 5400rpm ones. If you have two drives in a TiVo then twice the heat will be generated (although that won't double the reported temperature inside the TiVo case as Series 1 TiVos are very well ventilated and can dissipate an amazing amount of heat). As drive lifetime is known to be (in general terms) in inverse proportion to operating temperature it follows that fitting two drives will decrease the reliability of the system, regardless of the statistical likelihood of any single drive failing.

I'm sure there are many people who have (and will have) TiVos that run for years with two drives. However, my general advice would be to go for a single drive if possible unless concerns other than reliability (eg. price, quietness, or capacity) are your priority.

[Pete77]

No two TiVo installations are the same, even with the same drives, as even if you have them both in the same room, one is likely to be on top of the other :) Therefore it's almost impossible to predict what temperature any TiVo will run at.

Strangley my HA250JC two drives seem to be alongside one another. Or were you referring to the temperature of one being "on top" of the other?

However, as a general rule, I'm quite confident in saying that big 7200rpm drives generate more heat than small 5400rpm ones. If you have two drives in a TiVo then twice the heat will be generated (although that won't double the reported temperature inside the TiVo case as Series 1 TiVos are very well ventilated and can dissipate an amazing amount of heat). .

You don't give any views though on what is the highest normal operating temperature range you have seen in any new 2 drive Tivo installation you have set up. Or don't you have time to do that before you pack them up and send them off? ;)

Does my increase in temp for two HA250JCs sound normal compared to the former Quantum drives?

While noting that in theory a single drive is more reliable than two surely economics militate against a single drive installation for those who want larger drive capacities as the largest drives available at any moment in time always command a premium price level. I know that some customers are happy with lower capacities than me (for instance many seem to buy a single HA250JC which at Mode 0 will only give around 100 hours or so even with VBR enabled)

Of course I accept that many of your customers are probably much less price sensitive than the marketplace at large judging by the way that some of your drive upgrade prices do not seem to have reduced in line with reductions in underlying component cost since you first listed those upgrade sizes? ;)

[blindlemon]

I was talking about two TiVos on top of each other!

The highest temperature I've seen is 44C - however, my test area is well ventilated.

You may not believe this, but the price of a bare HA250JC drive is now more expensive than 6 months ago and just £1 less than the first one I sold in June 2005. Prices of other drives have reduced over time, and I now no longer sell 120gb drives as the price difference between them and 160gb is so small it's not worth bothering with.

[Pete77]

You may not believe this, but the price of a bare HA250JC drive is now more expensive than 6 months ago and just £1 less than the first one I sold in June 2005. Prices of other drives have reduced over time, and I now no longer sell 120gb drives as the price difference between them and 160gb is so small it's not worth bothering with.

Yes but that is only because the HA250JC is a legacy (i.e. deleted and non current model) drive that is commanding a premium price because that is what the suppliers who still have any of them bought them at and because of its alleged strong suitability for Tivo and Sky+ PVR upgrades.

Samsung seem to have a very competitively priced 400GB 7200rpm IDE drive now around £80 and given that all recent Samsung drives are pretty quiet I would have thought most customers would be better off with one of those and the 40 hours or so of extra recording capacity? I wouldn't have thought the extra heat would be significant with only one drive in the Tivo?

On a per Gb basis I think current model 250Gb to 400Gb drives currently roughly cost about the same per Gb but sizes smaller than 250Gb and larger than 400Gb both command premium prices for different reasons.

Logically speaking when people are obviously paying you a fee in the price of each drive upgrade for your own significant time and effort for them in configuring the drive and drivers and Tivoweb etc it is really a false economy in many ways for them to go for a 160Gb drive rather than a 400Gb one. For me the convenience of being able to let programs I haven't had time to watch kick around on the machine for several months in case I find time to watch them is very substantial. Since I have had my 2x250Gb drives I have not received any messages about not having enough Disk Space Available for the recording..............

[Pete77]

I was talking about two TiVos on top of each other!

The highest temperature I've seen is 44C - however, my test area is well ventilated.

My Tivo sits in a black wooden cabinet with closed glass doors under my Philips tv and also the room in question tends not to get its windows opened on boiling hot summer days due to being right underneath the flightpath of a busy local airport that gets much busier in the middle of the day during the peak summer months.

However the fact that my operating temp range is 37C to 46C compared to 27C to 30C with the two Quantums suggests to me that the Samsungs don't run all that cool despite the 5400rpm. However I suspect the low spin speed makes it easy to keep the noise level down which is exceptionally minimal/non-existent unless I put my head next to the Tivo box on these drives.

Also don't forget that before the drive upgrade I didn't have a Cachecard with 512MB of RAM either and I suspect that may impose its own heat load.

Still perhaps I need to go for a more powerful coolling fan upgrade in the Tivo? Can you recommend one that is easy to fit and makes things a lot cooler?

[blindlemon]

Yes but that is only because the HA250JC is a legacy (i.e. deleted and non current model) drive [...] and because of its alleged strong suitability for Tivo and Sky+ PVR upgrades.

Samsung seem to have a very competitively priced 400GB 7200rpm IDE drive now around £80 and given that all recent Samsung drives are pretty quiet I would have thought most customers would be better off with one of those and the 40 hours or so of extra recording capacity? I wouldn't have thought the extra heat would be significant with only one drive in the Tivo?All Samsung drives are very quiet in terms of seek noise, especially with AM enabled.

However, 7200rpm drives do have more of a tendancy to vibration/hum than slower drives, and the HA250JC is just about the coolest and most vibration-free drive I have ever handled. Sometimes I have to double check that they are plugged in, because I can't feel them spinning like I can with 7200rpm drives! Of course, not every HA250JC is perfect, and I've RMA'd a few just because they vibrated, but in general terms you won't get a better drive for a TiVo - and that includes Samsung's 7200rpm drives.

For 400gb drives I am now supplying the Seagate DB35 (7200.2 series) "CE" drives as these have much quieter seeks than their standard desktop drives. They are still 7200rpm though so can vibrate a bit, and of course they run a lot hotter than smaller drives, especially the HA250JC. However, as I mentioned before, the excellent cooling of the Series 1 TiVo case means that even 2x 400gb 7200rpm drives will not normally push the in-case temperature up beyond around 44-46C. That's not as good for the drives as 36C though, which is why I would recommend a single HA250JC if you don't need masses of storage, but it's not bad.

[blindlemon]

perhaps I need to go for a more powerful coolling fan upgrade in the Tivo? If your TiVo is hidden in a cabinet, why not run it with the lid off if you're worried about temperature? :)

[gjwell]

You should count yourself lucky it's not sharing the same cabinet with an Xbox 360. Then you'd be cooking!! :eek:

[Pete77]

You should count yourself lucky it's not sharing the same cabinet with an Xbox 360. Then you'd be cooking!! :eek:

Its sharing with a Panasonic TU-DSB 20 Sky Digibox and a BT Netgem IPlayer+ on the shelf above it so I suspect that may also be causing higher heat levels as there isn't so much cool air for the Tivo heat to rise up into.

I thought there wasn't much need for real concern about the Tivo running temp unless it hit 60C or higher?

[gjwell]

I've never really taken much notice of the temp before, I figured if nothing is melting then everything is ok.

I might do a few experiments and see what effect other devices in a small cabinet have. I assume I have a similar unit to you Pete (A Philips TV stand with glass doors) Wedged in there I have Pace Sky box, Tivo, Aiwa DVD player, PS2, Xbox 360 and video sender.

I have used cheap 5 1/4 inch caddies in a PC before and on removing the drive found it to be so hot I could barley hold it :( oops. Still the drive still hasn't failed to this day (yet!).

[blindlemon]

I thought there wasn't much need for real concern about the Tivo running temp unless it hit 60C or higher?In TiVo terms, maybe not - but that would put the surface temp of the hard drive considerably higher than that, and hard drive lifetime goes down with every degree of temperature increase, so although the TiVo might not complain, your drive(s) would probably fail earlier than if the temperature was a consistent 35C.

[Pete77]

In TiVo terms, maybe not - but that would put the surface temp of the hard drive considerably higher than that, and hard drive lifetime goes down with every degree of temperature increase, so although the TiVo might not complain, your drive(s) would probably fail earlier than if the temperature was a consistent 35C.

So what range of Tivo operating temps are you typically seeing from your HA250JC units with a Cachecard after configuration and with the lid on after they reach normal operating temp in a room at 21C?

And what about any Tivos you have configured with 2 x HA250JC units?

Take it that I'm talking about the ones at the top of the Tivo stack.

[blindlemon]

Temperatures I see in my workshop aren't likely to be representative as I've said, as a) it is probably cooler than most living rooms and b) everybody's TiVo will be situated differently.

FWIW, I'd say you probably need more ventilation in your cabinet, as a top temperature of 46C is a bit on the high side and I wouldn't expect quite that much variation in a well-ventilated unit.

[Pete77]

FWIW, I'd say you probably need more ventilation in your cabinet, as a top temperature of 46C is a bit on the high side and I wouldn't expect quite that much variation in a well-ventilated unit.

If I open the glass doors on the front and open the windows of the living room on a hot day it cools down 5C or so but then it looks unsightly and of course my Tivo might also get stolen what with it being a ground floor apartment with no fence of my own outside to keep out the burglars.

[blindlemon]

Maybe you can fit a cooling fan to your AV cabinet? People do :)