PTVUpgrade, Again

[susanandmark]

Months ago I had problems with PTVUpgrade and ended up having to dispute a charge with my credit card company. I sent reams of info, including a series of emails from the man whom said he was the owner, that started out nice but turned abusive, and on and on. (There's a nasty thread here somewhere, which even I haven't bothered to read all of, because it's just upsetting and who needs that?)

Anyway, whether you think I had a right to be upset or not, my credit card company backed me in the dispute for the item that PTVUpgrade requested returned, saying they didn't want to deal with me (which is fine), but now, FOUR MONTHS after the fact, PTVUpgrade has, completely illegally, gone back and recharged my credit card again for the disputed amount.

Whatever you think of me, that is flat out WRONG. No legitimate business on earth would go back and charge someone's credit card without explict permission. My credit card company, in fact, has now advised me that I'll be forced to change my credit card number since I have someone illegally accessing the account. I did ask (explaining the whole situation and acknowledging fully that PTVUpgrade thought they had every right to charge me a restock fee) and they (Chase Bank) said there is NO circumstance that allows companies to recharge accounts in this scenario, without additional purchase or explict permission from the cardholder (me), whom of course PTVUpgrade never even bothered to contact. Companies can, of course, argue a dispute (and ask that the customer be rebilled), but that is NOT what happened. Instead, PTVUpgrade went back, looked up my credit card number, and just charged me again.

Some may think I'm a whiner, and that's certainly your right, but this sort of thing is unethical, at best, and out-and-out fraud at worst. And I think it's also worth noting that, years ago, when I first purchased from PTV Upgrade, I actually went out of my way to post (on this same forum) how impressed how I was with their clear, easy-to-use instructions and product. It was only when I had a customer service issue (on my third or fourth order) that I was in any way disatisified.

[BlackBetty]

Thanks for opening up the same can of dog cr@p in a brand new shiny thread. :rolleyes:

[Y-ASK]

I sure hope you stick around this time and defend your position instead of leaving after the 1st couple of negative responses. Nothing worse that someone whinning about something in a forum and then not sticking up for thier position.

Y-ASK

And if this is true, it's pretty low of PTV. No way a biz should be charging a CC without permission. I don't give a ***** what they think they are entitled to...

[gastrof]

...Sniv snad sniffie snu. Vagalanno poopee. Glakonda. Glakonda jarfloof....

susanandmark?

Could I personally ask you please to stop involving us in your personal problems with PTV, and suggest that if you have a problem with them you either get a lawyer, contact your local police and charge them with fraud, write to your local consumer affairs people, or send your expressions of dissatisfaction and annoyance to PTV directly, rather than putting them up here and hoping we'll join your torch-carrying, murmuring mob of one or two?

This is between you and them. We haven't heard both sides of the story, and most likely none of us want to.

That means we especially don't want to hear only one.

A lot of people who frequent these boards have had nothing but good experiences with both Weakness and PTV.

Why is it you're standing out like a sore thumb?

Take private action, if it's warranted, but LEAVE US OUT OF IT.

[dswallow]

Well actually your original purchase with PTV Upgrade may have been under terms specifically authorizing them to make charges to your credit card if you refuse payment or initiate a dispute/chargeback. Implicit with that purchase would've been your agreement to those terms.

I'm not saying that's the case. But that's certainly one possible manner in which this could happen without being in violation of their merchant agreement.

What exactly happened? You were charged for $X for the item then you were credited for $(X- restocking fee) and then initiated a dispute for $(restocking fee) and now you're being charged $(restocking fee) again? What about shipping costs?

[Popasmurf]

Here is the orginal thread if you wish to read it and it is ALOT.... It has also been marked locked. As much as I don't want to limit anyone's free speech, I hope this thread does not run the same course as the original.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=301455

[Sparty99]

susanandmark?

Could I personally ask you please to stop involving us in your personal problems with PTV, and suggest that if you have a problem with them you either get a lawyer, contact your local police and charge them with fraud, write to your local consumer affairs people, or send your expressions of dissatisfaction and annoyance to PTV directly, rather than putting them up here and hoping we'll join your torch-carrying, murmuring mob of one or two?

This is between you and them. We haven't heard both sides of the story, and most likely none of us want to.

That means we especially don't want to hear only one.

A lot of people who frequent these boards have had nothing but good experiences with both Weakness and PTV.

Why is it you're standing out like a sore thumb?

Take private action, if it's warranted, but LEAVE US OUT OF IT.
Susanandmark didn't personally involve you. You did, when you chose to open the thread and reply to their post. They only way they would have personally involved you is if they had sent you a PM saying, "What are your thoughts on my thread."

You have every right to ignore their complaints; they have every right to post them. Just because most here have had good experiences with PTV Upgrade doesn't mean that the company has a perfect track record. The people who rave about them have the same right to rant and rave in the positive as do the people who do so in the negative.

On top of that, PTV Upgrade has gotten a great deal of business from this forum. If they are affecting users of this forum in a negative way, the owners of this forum may want to address the issue. I'm not saying that's the case, but it is one possible outcome.

So please, ignore the thread as you please, but don't pretend that the OP "personally involved" you in their complaint.

[Crrink]

Susanandmark didn't personally involve you. You did, when you chose to open the thread and reply to their post. They only way they would have personally involved you is if they had sent you a PM saying, "What are your thoughts on my thread."

You have every right to ignore their complaints; they have every right to post them. Just because most here have had good experiences with PTV Upgrade doesn't mean that the company has a perfect track record. The people who rave about them have the same right to rant and rave in the positive as do the people who do so in the negative.

On top of that, PTV Upgrade has gotten a great deal of business from this forum. If they are affecting users of this forum in a negative way, the owners of this forum may want to address the issue. I'm not saying that's the case, but it is one possible outcome.

So please, ignore the thread as you please, but don't pretend that the OP "personally involved" you in their complaint.
+1

[gastrof]

Susanandmark didn't personally involve you. You did, when you chose to open the thread and reply to their post. They only way they would have personally involved you is if they had sent you a PM saying, "What are your thoughts on my thread."

You have every right to ignore their complaints; they have every right to post them. Just because most here have had good experiences with PTV Upgrade doesn't mean that the company has a perfect track record. The people who rave about them have the same right to rant and rave in the positive as do the people who do so in the negative.

On top of that, PTV Upgrade has gotten a great deal of business from this forum. If they are affecting users of this forum in a negative way, the owners of this forum may want to address the issue. I'm not saying that's the case, but it is one possible outcome.

So please, ignore the thread as you please, but don't pretend that the OP "personally involved" you in their complaint.



Is someone else's personal problems on topic in these forums?

Should we next expect people to post telling us of their personal problems with neighbors, unfaithful spouses, and one ply-toilet paper?

How is it that EVERYONE else has good experiences with PTV, but this person is making public what they say is a bad one?

Do we really need to be "warned" or is something else going on?

There's no need for this to go on here, and as for your logic with regards to me speaking up, nobody made YOU read MY post, so if YOU don't like it, then YOU shouldn't have replied.

See how THAT works?

PS

As for them not involving me, a thread with a title of "PTV UPGRADE, AGAIN" sounds like an interesting experience we'd all benefit from....not an attempt at getting us on their side in a strictly personal dispute. They DID involve me by posting here and not using a title like "I'm having a problem with PTV...let me tell you about it."

[Sparty99]

Is someone else's personal problems on topic in these forums?

Should we next expect people to post telling us of their personal problems with neighbors, unfaithful spouses, and one ply-toilet paper?
You've got almost 2000 posts in this forum and you've never seen people talk about their personal problems? Is the problem just that this came up in the TiVo Discussion area? Because I think this does relate to TiVo.

How is it that EVERYONE else has good experiences with PTV, but this person is making public what they say is a bad one?

Do we really need to be "warned" or is something else going on?
It's the nature of our world. When people have a negative experience they are far more bound to tell people about it than when they have a positive or neutral experience. This is perhaps the foremost area of discussion on TiVo's and any kind of upgrades related to it and I can't think of a better place for someone to raise concerns about a vendor whose primary means of business is related to TiVo.

And the OP is not the first person who has posted a negative experience about PTVUpgrade. And if others continue to have problems (with their track record there won't be many), they should continue to post them.

There's no need for this to go on here, and as for your logic with regards to me speaking up, nobody made YOU read MY post, so if YOU don't like it, then YOU shouldn't have replied.

See how THAT works?
Let me get this straight. You don't like the original post. You tell him not only that you don't like his post, but that such a discussion is inappropriate here (which it's not).

In return, I don't like your post, and I say as much. You, in turn, say that if I don't like your post that I shouldn't replied.

Sound about right?

PS

As for them not involving me, a thread with a title of "PTV UPGRADE, AGAIN" sounds like an interesting experience we'd all benefit from....not an attempt at getting us on their side in a strictly personal dispute. They DID involve me by posting here and not using a title like "I'm having a problem with PTV...let me tell you about it."
They involved everyone by posting a title that says "PTV Upgrade, Again". You involved yourself when you chose to respond. You could very well have said to yourself, "This doesn't concern me, I'll move on." You chose not to. At that point you became personally involved - through an action of your own, not one of the OP.

Your response to the OP reminded me of people who say, "I don't like this stuff on my TV, it shouldn't be aired for anyone." I'm sure that's not your point of view, but that's what it felt like to me.

[susanandmark]

If you don't think my complaint is valid, please feel free to ignore it. The reason I stopped posting in the other thread is that is became a personal attack against me (very quickly), with a great deal of bogus and/or questionable info from the person who identified themselves as PTVUpgrade, the same thing I experienced dealing with them personally. I absolutely thought the more mature thing to do was state my position and leave it at that. Name calling, etc, just is not my style. Plus, I'd pretty much said my peace, so whatever conclusions anyone wanted to make on their own, I really can't (and shouldn't try to) control. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, of me and everything else on earth. I'm not going to try and talk, or argue, them out of it.

If you don't believe me, that's fine; absolutely your choice. (Though why I'd bother to make any of this up is beyond me. Trust me, I don't have that much free time.)

The fact is that I was charged on 9/7 by PTVupgrade.com for an amount ($33.38 with the heading "PTVUPGRADGE 773-3260189 IL") that had been disputed, successfully, by my credit card company. PTVUpgrade.com had 90 days to respond to Chase Bank and ask me to be re-billed the amount I disputed, and they did not (this is according to Chase). Instead, they simply recharged me card, which they do not have the right to do (again, according to Chase). By the way, until I disputed the charge, PTVUpgrade.com had not issued ANY credit to my account, though they had received the returned merchandise more than 10 days (via UPS receipt) before I contacted my credit card company the first time.

As I stated it my original post, I told my credit card company, and the dispute "specialist" I spoke with today, EXACTLY what happened, including the fact that PTVUpgrade.com felt they had a right to charge me a restocking fee. I was assured that, no matter what they felt they deserved, even if it was in writing on their website, they couldn't just charge my credit card again, and told me that this was part of the agreement every merchant signs when they agree to accept Visa, Mastercard, etc. (In my case it was a Visa, if that matters.)

I post ONLY because, if this happened to someone else, I'd want to know about it before using the company. If it does not effect YOUR view of the company in any way, that is absolutely your prerogative. I never said no one should use them, or that they suck or that so-and-so is a bad person, I simply shared my experience (which, again, I prefaced by saying I'd had quite a few successful dealings with them before this incident). I also very clearly labeled this thread, and the original, so, if someone didn't want to read it, they don't have to.

People who think I’m crazy, evil or whatever, certainly have that right. I will say that I started posting on this forum around 2000 and have a good number of posts (in the hundreds), and, including this one, a grand total of four of those are detailing the problems I had/have with PTVUpgrade.com.

[Phialpha]

Sounds like susanandmark had a difficult time with the purchase, to say the least. Working at a Financial Institution I have dealt with many Visa dispute situations. From the info presented, it sounds like Visa sided with you susanandmark. Not to downplay the issue, but if it were less than $20 Chase would have said "That sucks your a good customer" and given the money back. NOT actually getting it themselves, Bonds and Insurance stuff.

Because it was more, your statement was truthful. It went to Visa, the Merchant had the specified amount of time to respond, and then Visa makes a decision. Visa has made their process much more strict than it was a few years ago where there could be two attempts. But they did away with that.

Point is, once VISA International said the transaction was over...it was OVER! If, after Visa said that, the transaction was attempted again they were in essence spitting in Visa's face.

If a customer returns a product according to the terms and conditions, then the merchant is required to credit the account. Granted they are allowed enough time to verify that they received the money to begin with and the merchandise is returned, BUT they still have to give the credit in a reasonable amount of time. If Visa agreed with the dispute, that leads me to believe that it was done in accordance with the Terms and Conditions of the merchant. Once that was done, the merchant would need to get a second authorization from the cardholder to run a charge (signature on the receipt, online purchase, etc.). From the susanandmark post, I gather that didn't happen.

I wanted to point out that susanandmark posted accurate information so that the forum members could make their own decisions. If the facts presented are accurate, it is my opinion that susanandmark are being neighborly. Meaning they went thru a difficult experience and wanted to make sure others knew about it and could make an informed purchase, as an adult.

To end, the people that don't want to get involved with this don't have to. It's just like TV (or commercials on the TIVO) if you don't like it you don't have to watch it...change the channel.

P

[gastrof]

And if you don't like my comments, don't respond to them.

This is nothing but someone trying to vent their frustration over something that doesn't involve us, so's to get us on their side, and make their "truth" about their opponent known.

The mods locked up the former thread, and this person started a new one.

Don't you guys get what's going on here?

Come on...

[Phantom Gremlin]

People who think I’m crazy, evil or whatever, certainly have that right. I will say that I started posting on this forum around 2000 and have a good number of posts (in the hundreds)
I hate to be pedantic about it, but you joined in April 2001 and have 71 posts so far.

That doesn't have much to do with your primary message. but the information is practically STARING me in the face to the left of each post, including yours.

[drew2k]

"I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you."

Yup, it's gotten this juvenile. Here's the way I look at this: If the OP has an issue, let the OP post about it. If no one responds, the thread dies. If everyone responds, the thread lives. If you disagree with the OP and can add nothing to refute the OP's claims and want the thread to die ... stop replying. It's really that simple.

[ZeoTiVo]

The fact is that I was charged on 9/7 by PTVupgrade.com for an amount ($33.38 with the heading "PTVUPGRADGE 773-3260189 IL") that had been disputed, successfully, by my credit card company. PTVUpgrade.com had 90 days to respond to Chase Bank and ask me to be re-billed the amount I disputed, and they did not (this is according to Chase).
why do you feel you should not have paid the restocking charge? IIRC you ordered the wrong item and had to return it. PTVUpgrade made a mistake by not responding within the 90 days and then violating the merchant agreement that is for sure, but I would like to see the basic facts you sent to the credit card company as to why you did not have to pay the restocking fee. Not the reams of info, just the basic facts.

[HeatherA]

I hate to be pedantic about it, but you joined in April 2001 and have 71 posts so far.

That doesn't have much to do with your primary message. but the information is practically STARING me in the face to the left of each post, including yours.

Actually, there was a time when this forum switched servers or something and many of the old accounts were lost. I had to sign up again and also lost my post count from the prior membership. So it's possible that susanandmark are in the same boat.

[Y-ASK]

why do you feel you should not have paid the restocking charge? IIRC you ordered the wrong item and had to return it. PTVUpgrade made a mistake by not responding within the 90 days and then violating the merchant agreement that is for sure, but I would like to see the basic facts you sent to the credit card company as to why you did not have to pay the restocking fee. Not the reams of info, just the basic facts.
None of this really matters. PTV had time to contest the issue and they did not. They then re-charged the account which they legally cannot do. If I remember right I sided with PTV last time but this really is not cool. Maybe the owner of PTV has some anger issues that he needs to deal with. :D

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

None of this really matters. PTV had time to contest the issue and they did not. They then re-charged the account which they legally cannot do. If I remember right I sided with PTV last time but this really is not cool. Maybe the owner of PTV has some anger issues that he needs to deal with. :D

Y-ASK

you are correct on that point of the actions taken in resubmitting the charge but the OP opened the can of worms and I decided to relook at the restocking dispute and find out if the credit card company let the dispute stand for no other reason than that PTVupgrade missed the time window specificed in the merchant agreement.

[Phialpha]

The correct action (in my opinion) would have been to credit the Purchase amount MINUS the Restocking Fee. Being an internet merchant I am guessing they have something to that effect in the Terms and Condition. If they didn't then, I bet the do now.

[jmace57]

Here's the way I look at this: If the OP has an issue, let the OP post about it. If no one responds, the thread dies. If everyone responds, the thread lives. If you disagree with the OP and can add nothing to refute the OP's claims and want the thread to die ... stop replying. It's really that simple.


Excellent post drew.

Jim

PS - oops, now I posted... :cool:

[DocNo]

Maybe the owner of PTV has some anger issues that he needs to deal with. :D

They have major attitude problems. I made a simple mistake in ordering the instant cake off of their web site - mainly because (at least at the time) their web site design was pretty atrocious and not clear at all. In emailing them back and forth they were rather condescending and unprofessional. They did resolve my issue, but not without me having to deal with some seriously sarcastic email's.

So, I have no problem believing the OP's story. I experienced a small slice of it myself :p

[Opusnbill7]

Sure would be nice to hear what PTV has to say about the matter, though...

[TiVotion]

Here we go again.

I'm not going to bother reading it all again, but wasn't the original complaint because you basically thought that your hard drive should last forever, and when it quit after the seller's return period, you still wanted to send it back to them because, despite the fact that it now resided inside your TiVo, it was "only lightly used"?

Why, oh why. Please stop dragging this out in here.

[drew2k]

Here we go again.

...

Why, oh why. Please stop dragging this out in here.It was dormant for almost 8 hours but we have only ourselves to blame (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4463443&&#post4463443). :o