OTA HD Issue - HR10-250?

[golfgame]

:confused: Can someone help me understand this problem please. I have problems getting Fox-HD in the Detroit area. I get all of the other HD locals without any problems. All of the station transmitters in Detroit are located in the same general area.

1. When I check the OTA signal strength on frequency 58 there are times that it is in the 85 range on both tuners and I can receive a picture.

2. A few minutes later the OTA signal strength ranges from 0 to 20? NO Picture.

3. Never are both tuners reporting an equal signal strength at the same time on this frequency. Why? On The other frequencies they both report similar numbers?

4. There is a pine tree that is in front of the antenna but I am not certain if it is high enough to impeade the signal, it does not appear to be affecting the other frequencies.? The wind is not moving the tree.
I need to re-visit this issue as it has never been solved. I receive OTA locals from Detroit. My only issue still remains the Fox HD channel. On occaision it will come in but 99.9% of the time it will not.

I ran the system tests again today and here are the results.

SAT In 1=99 2=89
ANT In 1=11 2=20

Frequency 21 (Fox HD) Tuner 1=92 Tuner 2=92 (There is no picture. The screen reports search for signal.)

Frequency 45 (NBC HD) Tuner 1=92 Tuner 2=92

Frequency 45 (CBS HD) Tuner 1=82 Tuner 2=82

NBC & CBS have a great picture.

How can there be no picture on Fox while having a strength of (92) on both tuners? If there is a signal there would there not be a picture?

What is to be made of the signal strength numbeers on the OTS test (ANT In 1=11 2=20)?

Can anyone explain and offer help? Can this be a reveiver issue? HR10-250

I might add that before I had this Tivo reciever I had a Samsung SIR-TS360 with the exact same cabling setup and I got ALL of the OTA HD channels just fine, including the Fox HD channel.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[videojanitor]

I'm having a little trouble keeping your results straight in my head. First you said:

ANT In 1=11 2=20

Then:

Frequency 21 (Fox HD) Tuner 1=92 Tuner 2=92

When you received the "11" and "20" results in the first test, what channel were you tuned to?

There can be many reasons why you would have good signal strength but no picture. There could be something about the data stream that your TiVo doesn't like, or you could have a multipath problem, or too much signal (overload). Let's get the bottom of those differing results above and go from there.

[golfgame]

I'm having a little trouble keeping your results straight in my head. First you said:

ANT In 1=11 2=20

Then:

Frequency 21 (Fox HD) Tuner 1=92 Tuner 2=92

When you received the "11" and "20" results in the first test, what channel were you tuned to?

There can be many reasons why you would have good signal strength but no picture. There could be something about the data stream that your TiVo doesn't like, or you could have a multipath problem, or too much signal (overload). Let's get the bottom of those differing results above and go from there.
I just tested it again. I went to the guide and tuned the set to the FoxHD channel which is 2-1. I get the serching for signal message.

Sat In
1=99%
2=100%
Ant In
1=19%
2=84%
The meter numbers on Frequency 21 both were 92

I just discovered that FOX HD is actually broadcast on Freq 58. Here are the new numbers
Sat In
1=99%
2=100%
Ant In
1=19%
2=84%
The meter numbers on Frequency 58 were
Tuner #1= 0-26 Peak 40
Tuner #2= 5-25 Peak 42

Thanks

[videojanitor]

Ant In
1=19%
2=84%
The meter numbers on Frequency 58 were
Tuner #1= 0-26 Peak 40
Tuner #2= 5-25 Peak 42

Thanks

I must be thick, because I/m still not quite grasping what I am seeing. In the above chart, is "Ant In 2=84%" on the same screen as "Tuner #2= 5-25 Peak 42?" I'm trying to figure out why there are two different numbers -- when I go to the "Test Off-Air Signal" screen, I get this:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4625/signalqu6.jpg

Is that the screen you're looking at? If you're only getting between 5-25 with peaks at 42, then it seems like you just don't have enough signal on that channel. Or there could be too much signal and the HR10 tuner is being overloaded. That happens to me if I connect my antenna directly to the HR10 -- one channel doesn't come in. I fixed it by putting a 2-way splitter ahead of it -- that drops the signal by 3dB, and is enough to eliminate the problem.

[golfgame]

I must be thick, because I/m still not quite grasping what I am seeing. In the above chart, is "Ant In 2=84%" on the same screen as "Tuner #2= 5-25 Peak 42?" I'm trying to figure out why there are two different numbers -- when I go to the "Test Off-Air Signal" screen, I get this:

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/4625/signalqu6.jpg

Is that the screen you're looking at? If you're only getting between 5-25 with peaks at 42, then it seems like you just don't have enough signal on that channel. Or there could be too much signal and the HR10 tuner is being overloaded. That happens to me if I connect my antenna directly to the HR10 -- one channel doesn't come in. I fixed it by putting a 2-way splitter ahead of it -- that drops the signal by 3dB, and is enough to eliminate the problem.
When I go to the "System Test" screen I get these numbers. This is the same screen that tests the phone line.
SAT IN
1=87
2=92

ANT IN
1=0
2=9

When I run the test on the same screen that you have shown in your picture, frequncy 58 reports no digital signal with both peaking in the 20/21 range.

As I said before this same antenna, antenna placement and cable setup using the Samsung work perfectly on all channels including the FOX HS (Freq 58)

[Mark Lopez]

When I run the test on the same screen that you have shown in your picture, frequncy 58 reports no digital signal with both peaking in the 20/21 range.


Well, if 58 is indeed the correct freq, then a signal of 20/21 is not going to cut it at all. Typically anything around 65-70 will start to show picture breakups. 20 will not get you anything. Now, as to why your other setup worked, I can't answer. The Samsung must have either had a better tuner, or something else changed (i.e. antenna cable connection degraded).

[poppagene]

I suggest you read through this thread (www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=312472) . You may need to open up your tivo because the likely problem is either a poor connection on the inside or a poor "splitter" at the back of the tivo box.

[golfgame]

I suggest you read through this thread (www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=312472) . You may need to open up your tivo because the likely problem is either a poor connection on the inside or a poor "splitter" at the back of the tivo box.
Can you explain in more detail about the "splitter" at the back of the tevo? Is this splitter internal? This whole loose connection kind of makes sense to me because on occaision (once every 50 attempts) will this problem channel will come perfectly.

[poppagene]

Can you explain in more detail about the "splitter" at the back of the tevo? Is this splitter internal? This whole loose connection kind of makes sense to me because on occaision (once every 50 attempts) will this problem channel will come perfectly.

It's actually an internal RF distribution amp module. The OTA signal goes in the back and the internal RF distribution amp module distributes it to 2 RCA jacks inside tivo. Inside there are 2 rg59 cables with an rca plug on one end and a standard f connector on the other end. The rca ends go into the internal RF distribution amp module and the f connector plugs go into the 2 ATSC tuners inside tivo. There are a variety of solutions depoending on what is wrong with your unit. Some have just found that one or both of these cable swere loose and needed to be reattached. Others have reported bad cables and replaced the rg59 with rg6 cabling. I believe my internal RF distribution amp module was causing th eproblems and so I bypassed it altogether running RG6 cables from my ota antenna directly to the ATSC tuners inside the box.

also check out these threads

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290785

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=305831

[mwinn]

I have the same issue with Fox here in Canton,MI. For whatever reason Fox 2 Detroit has real bad multipath issues around here. I have never been able to keep a good signal (Same issue on my old Samsung 160 just was not as bad).

[videojanitor]

When I run the test on the same screen that you have shown in your picture, frequncy 58 reports no digital signal with both peaking in the 20/21 range.

As I said before this same antenna, antenna placement and cable setup using the Samsung work perfectly on all channels including the FOX HS (Freq 58)

OK, now I am getting the picture -- you were looking at two different screens, hence my confusion. I wouldn't worry about that "System Test" screen -- when it measures the "Antenna In" signal, it is probably just looking at an average of all the channels. The screen I showed will give you the reading for any specific channel, which is what you need.

My first suggestion would be this: Do you have an analog tuner connected to the antenna? Are there are any analog channels in your area that are near channel 58? I would check the reception on those and see how they look. For instance, if you have an analog Channel 50, check it out and see if it snowy. If it is, this will kind of tell you that your signal strength in that frequency range is not very good. Likewise, look for signs of multipath (double images).

If either of these conditions exist, then it's likely that your Samsung tuner was simply better at dealing with these issues. It's also possible to have too much signal, which can end up looking like not enough. Try this: remove the antenna coax from the back of the HR10, then while watching the signal meter, put the connector very close to the jack, or if possible, just let the center conductor connect. This will allow some signal to get through, but greatly attenuated -- if your problem is too much signal, then you might see the meter jump way up. If this turns out to be the case, you can get an in-line attenuator for just a couple of bucks. I'll tell you where to get one if it turns out you need it.

[golfgame]

OK, now I am getting the picture -- you were looking at two different screens, hence my confusion. I wouldn't worry about that "System Test" screen -- when it measures the "Antenna In" signal, it is probably just looking at an average of all the channels. The screen I showed will give you the reading for any specific channel, which is what you need.

My first suggestion would be this: Do you have an analog tuner connected to the antenna? Are there are any analog channels in your area that are near channel 58? I would check the reception on those and see how they look. For instance, if you have an analog Channel 50, check it out and see if it snowy. If it is, this will kind of tell you that your signal strength in that frequency range is not very good. Likewise, look for signs of multipath (double images).

If either of these conditions exist, then it's likely that your Samsung tuner was simply better at dealing with these issues. It's also possible to have too much signal, which can end up looking like not enough. Try this: remove the antenna coax from the back of the HR10, then while watching the signal meter, put the connector very close to the jack, or if possible, just let the center conductor connect. This will allow some signal to get through, but greatly attenuated -- if your problem is too much signal, then you might see the meter jump way up. If this turns out to be the case, you can get an in-line attenuator for just a couple of bucks. I'll tell you where to get one if it turns out you need it.
Not sure what you mean by an analog tuner, can you give me an example of what that might be? Are referring to a non HD channel?

[JimSpence]

Analog tuners are what have been used for the last 60 years. You may see these referenced as NTSC. HD is delivered with ATSC (digital).

[videojanitor]

Not sure what you mean by an analog tuner, can you give me an example of what that might be? Are referring to a non HD channel?

I am referring to a good old regular TV tuner from the pre-digital TV era. Just looking at the Detroit listings, I see that CBS (analog) is on Channel 62 -- is that right? Do you have your antenna connected to your TV? And if so, what's the reception like on Channel 62? If it's snowy, then that indicates a problem at the higher frequencies, which could be why you're having trouble with FOX HD (which is slightly lower, on Channel 58).

The reason I'm asking you to do this test is because by looking at an analog channel, it's easy to see what the problem might be because you can see noise and other things. With digital, you're flying blind -- you usually get a perfect picture, or nothing at all.

[golfgame]

I am referring to a good old regular TV tuner from the pre-digital TV era. Just looking at the Detroit listings, I see that CBS (analog) is on Channel 62 -- is that right? Do you have your antenna connected to your TV? And if so, what's the reception like on Channel 62? If it's snowy, then that indicates a problem at the higher frequencies, which could be why you're having trouble with FOX HD (which is slightly lower, on Channel 58).

The reason I'm asking you to do this test is because by looking at an analog channel, it's easy to see what the problem might be because you can see noise and other things. With digital, you're flying blind -- you usually get a perfect picture, or nothing at all.
Are you saying to hook the antenna directly to the TV and bypass the HR10-250? Or are asking how the reception of channel 62 is coming thru the receiver? The antenna that is presenting the problem is mounted outside. Just tonight the channel we are talking about which is 20-1 came in perfectly but when I went to the test screen there was not much in the way of meter strength and when I exited the testing screen the picture was gone. Could this possibly be loose cabling inside the receiver?

I have another antenna in by attic that is hooked to another TV that is 15yrs old and that channel is fine on that TV. That TV is a Toshiba. How would you determine if it were analog?

[TyroneShoes]

If it's 15 yrs old, it certainly isn't digital. ATSC broadcasting didn't really begin until 1997.

Be sure you have an antenna that is capable of receiving low-V, ch 2. It should also be highly directional. 2 is just about the worst channel allocation you can get for digital, because it is so susceptible to impulse noise, and a faulty power company transformer can completely wipe out reception for blocks. You can be sure that the station is not happy about being put on 2, because it makes reception very difficult for ATSC. They will probably opt to return to the current NTSC channel in 2009. Unfortunately, a better antenna or a more directional antenna is not always effective against impulse noise interference, but it is still better than one that is not directional.

[Sepen]

I was having problems with OTA dropouts also. I am 5.8 miles from the towers and have twice changed antennas. I have a DB-4 now and was still getting dropouts. I ran a new quad shield rg6 directly to the tv, same problems. And this is with signals of 82-93 on all 4 locals.

So, I moved the antenna so I get around 80-85 strength and now all is ok. WTF? All I did was move it about 10 degrees. I can't figure it out, but it is working now. Less is better?

[Juppers]

Sounds more like signal overload causing your dropouts. I'm 9 or so miles away from my towers, and my antenna is a 7 inch piece of coax on the roof and I get a solid 95. That is for digital channels 39 and 40. I have a VHF antenna for channels 4 and 13, then a DB4 feeding channel 19 through a jointenna for a station that is about 60 miles away. I get it around 88 or 90. I'm adding in a 4228 to pick up the Louisville stations that are about 70-80 miles away. I get them in the 80's to 90's as well. Waiting on a filter to drop 39 and 40 from the 4228 -50db so I don't get overload on those. Wow, it's has gotten complex up there. :) All made possible by a CM7777 preamp.

[videojanitor]

Are you saying to hook the antenna directly to the TV and bypass the HR10-250? Or are asking how the reception of channel 62 is coming thru the receiver?

That's it exactly. Disconnect the antenna line that is feeding the HR10, connect it to the TV, and then tune around in the high UHF band. If your CBS affiliate is on Channel 62, as I believe it is, that will be a good test. Let me know if you get a nice solid picture on 62, or if it snowy or otherwise impaired. That will give us an idea of how your antenna is performing in that frequency range.

[golfgame]

Sounds more like signal overload causing your dropouts. I'm 9 or so miles away from my towers, and my antenna is a 7 inch piece of coax on the roof and I get a solid 95. That is for digital channels 39 and 40. I have a VHF antenna for channels 4 and 13, then a DB4 feeding channel 19 through a jointenna for a station that is about 60 miles away. I get it around 88 or 90. I'm adding in a 4228 to pick up the Louisville stations that are about 70-80 miles away. I get them in the 80's to 90's as well. Waiting on a filter to drop 39 and 40 from the 4228 -50db so I don't get overload on those. Wow, it's has gotten complex up there. :) All made possible by a CM7777 preamp.

Juppers,

I have had the box apart and did not find any loose connections so that did not fix anything.

You might be right on the overload thing. I get PBS (56.1) fine at 223* on the compass. I get ABC (7 & 7.1) perfect at 213* on t he compass. I get CBS (62 & 62.1) perfect at 199* on the compass. I get NBC (4 & 4.1) perfect as 207* on the compass.

Now here is the Kicker I get Fox (2) perfect but do not Fox HD (2.1) they are both at 207* on the compass as are NBC (4 & 4.1).

What do you make of that?

[golfgame]

That's it exactly. Disconnect the antenna line that is feeding the HR10, connect it to the TV, and then tune around in the high UHF band. If your CBS affiliate is on Channel 62, as I believe it is, that will be a good test. Let me know if you get a nice solid picture on 62, or if it snowy or otherwise impaired. That will give us an idea of how your antenna is performing in that frequency range.

Videojanitor,

I will not be able to get the direct line fron the Ant. hooked directly to the TV for several days yet.

See my response to Juppers just above. What do you make of that?

[videojanitor]

Videojanitor,

I will not be able to get the direct line fron the Ant. hooked directly to the TV for several days yet.

See my response to Juppers just above. What do you make of that?

The results of your antenna test will be the most telling. As for why you get FOX 2, but not FOX 2.1, I'm sure you know the reason is because they are on different frequencies. FOX 2 is on the low-VHF band, while FOX 2.1 is actually on Channel 58, which is high UHF.

[DavidTigerFan]

I have a somewhat similar problem. All day and all night I can get my local fox station DT with 80+ signal, but for some reason whenever they start broadcasting HD, my signal goes to crap and I can't get any signal higher than 50% and it fluctuates madly.

You guys have any idea on that?

[golfgame]

That's it exactly. Disconnect the antenna line that is feeding the HR10, connect it to the TV, and then tune around in the high UHF band. If your CBS affiliate is on Channel 62, as I believe it is, that will be a good test. Let me know if you get a nice solid picture on 62, or if it snowy or otherwise impaired. That will give us an idea of how your antenna is performing in that frequency range.
I was able today to hook the outside antenna directly to the TV bypassing the HR10-250.

The results were very good. The picture on channel 62 was great. I was able to get signals from all of the channels in Detroit that I should get. The picture quality ranged from very good to great.

I might add that once again the problem Fox HD channel came in great. The picture seems to hold as long as I don't got to any of the system check areas in the menu. In other words if I do nothing to leave the picture while it is recieving then the picture stays.

[videojanitor]

Well, sounds like your antenna/reception is fine then. I really didn't quite understand what you were saying in your last paragraph though. Are you saying that FOX HD comes in fine until you go into a menu and then come back out?

[golfgame]

Well, sounds like your antenna/reception is fine then. I really didn't quite understand what you were saying in your last paragraph though. Are you saying that FOX HD comes in fine until you go into a menu and then come back out?
No I was saying that when the Fox HD channel does work which is very , very rare that it will continue to work if you do not leave it for anything else. For example to check the signal strength while tuned to it. If you do when you return to it there is no picture.

Seeing that the antenna is working where in your opinion does this leave the issue?

[golfgame]

I tried lot of things, opened the receiver to check for loose connections, swaped wires around, ordered a number of attenuators from 3db to 20db, etc, etc. I thought that I saw a difference with some of them but nothing to talk about.

Today I was going to re-am the antenna a bit but decided to replace the lead in from it as I had decided some time ago I was going to do that. I wanted a lead that was a straight shot to the HR10 without going thru a diplexer.

Well low and behold there was a perfect picture that blew the signal strength meter off the wall. Maybe there was a short in one of the connectors, or H2O?????

Well anyways its a done deal. Thanks to all who tried to help.
:) :) :)

[mwinn]

Don't get to excited. Since I got 6.3a my Fox 2 HD comes in much better, but any weather (strong wind) will start multi-path issues. prior to 6.3a it really would not come in at all. I don't know why the software update helped, but it did.

[videojanitor]

Well anyways its a done deal. Thanks to all who tried to help.

Glad you got it fixed! Sorry I never responded to your other message -- somehow I deleted the reference to it from my inbox, and I had not checked into this thread since. All's well that ends well though!

[golfgame]

Don't get to excited. Since I got 6.3a my Fox 2 HD comes in much better, but any weather (strong wind) will start multi-path issues. prior to 6.3a it really would not come in at all. I don't know why the software update helped, but it did.
I have to be excited...I have not been able to receive 2.1 for 1 1/2 yrs.

I also have the new software. Got it about 10 days ago. Knock on wood, I have not had any of the issues described in this and other forums.

I am in Rochester.

At any rate I am happy as a pig in S&%t!!!!!
:) :) :)