Regardless of 6.3; I'm moving to a couple of S3s

[kcl]

Well, after owning a couple of the original HD10-250s, I've decided to abandon DirecTV and move over to Comcast and a couple of Series 3 Tivos. I'm writing this not so much a complaint, but more as a resigned sigh.

I've thought long and hard about this, and not just from a financial standpoint (although it's actually less than what I got into the HD10-250s for). Overall, I currently don't really have any significant problems with DirecTV. I even have both units upgraded with additional 160GB drives from Weaknees. And, frankly, if the 6.3 update had gotten here sooner (and I even had it yet), perhaps I would still be sticking around for awhile. But is hasn't, and I'm not.

I also took into account that, as has been chronicled numerous threads, the handwriting seems to be on the wall. With DirecTV's decision to provide the vast majority of their new HD programming on the new satellite(s) in MPEG4, its clear that if I want to access DirecTV's expanding HD content, I'm going to have to get new hardware. Also, my wife and I have found that HD has become very significant in our decisions on what to watch. So more HD content is a future requirement for us.

Add to all of this that the local Comcast seems to be making great strides in adding HD content. Not only do they have all of the HD channels (minus UHD) that we get on DirecTV, Comcast has the local channels and my beloved Kings in HD, as well as the NBA League Pass. In fact, the only thing that I'll miss is the NFL Sunday Ticket, and even then DirecTV wanted additional to get them in HD.

So I decided to go ahead and pull the trigger, so to speak. Once everything is set up, I'm probably just going to see what I can get for the HD10-250s on eBay.

I guess I'll be moving my lurking over to the Series 3 section. Its been a nice ride, but for me its time to make a change.

[TyroneShoes]

Good luck. I considered that route, but like you say, financially it is costly. There is close to $800 a pop for the S3s, plus CC fees, and Tivo fees, which are apparently higher than those for DTivos.

The other thing that stopped me was the ongoing turf war over CableCard, where cable vendors want it to fail and will use any little tech support issue you might have with it to wedge their foot in the door to sell you their POS STB instead. While I have great faith in the S3, I have very little in CC being worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

I got one HR10 at $850, the second at $199, and the third at $239, which actually got me a $299 credit from DTV, so even with Weaknees upgrades, I will have to hunker down with DTV and OTA/MPEG-2-only HR10s for at least a couple years.

You and I represent the two extreme choices, both of which make a certain amount of sense (and there really is nothing in between that does, especially if a NDS DVR is in the mix). I hope neither of us has painted themselves into a corner.

[tazzmission]

I might sell my (2) HR10-250's nad buy one Series 3 and use the Adelphia STB in the bedroom until the Series 3 price drops. Then I will get another one. I am not 100% set on this decision yet. But eventually I will have to leave DTV to stay with TiVo. And TiVo is what I have DTV for in the first place. I jsut need to see what I will be spending on cable every month. I have HSI with Adelphia so I know i can get some sort of package deal.

[zalusky]

I am in the middle of this decision as well. A lot of people are put off by the dollars and I can respect that in their decision. I am fortunate that is not that much of an issue in my decision as I can sell my units and essentially defray the $800 - 10% deals - resale on the HR10 to something reasonable.

The big things pushing me over is the additional content and I like the idea of not having comcast or DTV getting in the way of features. Yes we have CableLabs but I have betting odds Tivo will get features past them more frequently than they were able to get enhancements past DTV.

Being able to schedule shows from work and not having to use a phoneline is a good start.

I will always keep my eyes open on the competitive products but I havent been persuaded yet.

[pkscout]

I've also been thinking about dropping DirecTV and going back to cable. Then I took a job on the other side of the country while my wife stays here to finish her dissertation. So now I'm technically going to have both. With 6.3 the HD-Tivo is good enough to leave with the wife, and DirecTV is cheaper than TWC would be (by a substantial amount if you count the TiVo subscription fee I'd have to pay). Since I'm going to be in an apartment in Las Vegas, I'm going to buy a S3 for me to use out there.

If I hadn't taken the job I think I would've waited for the first price drop and a bit more stability in the CC installs and then gotten one (so probably by March or so).

[harley3k]

I am dropping D* too.

FIOS-TV is being installed this month at my place. I'll have the advantage of HD DVRs in 3 rooms without forking over money to buy 3 HD boxes, like I would have to do with D*. Yah, I know I could probably get 1 for free, or $99 or $299 or $399 or WTFever it is this week, but I am unwilling to haggle with retention.

And I'll have more HD Content today and not 1 year from now for about the same monthly bill, without a committment.

D* would need to offer a lot more in the future before I'm willing to BUY hardware again (that I wouldn't own). I mean seriously, when we bought our HR10-250 as the first HD-DVR out there, the premium price sort of made sense because there was nothing like it. Now D* will have a homegrown craptastic DVR like every other provider, why do they think they can charge us an upcharge $$$ to "lease" them and lock us in for 2 years?

-h

[TyroneShoes]

...With 6.3 the HD-Tivo is good enough to leave with the wife...
I'm sure this was a completely innocent statement, but it still cracked me up. :D

It also might explain why in your picture you look exactly like a married guy that left the wife for a few weeks and got an apartment in LV. :)

(sorry, pk, I just can never resist temptation. Peace.)

[btwyx]

I've decided to go with the S3, I'm running both machines at the moment, but just using the S3. I'm more or less just running the HR10 now as a stress test to see if 6.3a cures the "Channels not available" problem I've been badly aflicted by.

I made sure to tell D* why I'm leaving, no HD with TiVo in future. If enough people left and made sure to tell them why, they might realise the error of their ways.

[jrock]

I have an S3 with Comcast for all the locals in HD (Just recently replaced a SA8000HD) So I get the 4 major networks and they just added CW HD here in CT.

Since I have Comcast for my internet already it's only $10 more a month for basic cable and the first cable card is free then the second is $2.50 a month. The TiVo fee is $12.95 a month but if I add any additional S3's it will only be $6.95 more and $5 more for 2 more cable cards.

I kept DirecTV for all the other channels and the premium HD channels since we have 2 HR10-250's and 3 HDVR2's in the house. I just use the S3 on the big 55" TV in the living room.

So all and all I am getting a great deal, other than the $800 I spent to get the S3 I only pay $24.45 a month for the 5 HD channels I use including all charges (Cable and TiVo) Then DirecTV is off the chart at like $140 a month but the general video quality is much better than Comcast.

If you check over in the S3 forum they have a site that has S3's for $699 including shipping. That's the best deal I have seen so far.

-Joe

[JLWINE]

Good luck. I'm not sure what the TV future holds for me . I have been a DirecTV customer since 1994--however I too do not want to be forced away from my TiVo. I tried the HR20 and hated it. Unfortunately, until recently I had Comcast for my broadband services and there service was HORRIFIC!!!! Therefore, going to them is not an option. Perhaps by the time I'm ready to move, fiber to the home will be a reality.

[SHOMan]

Just a reminder that Comcast customer service can vary depending on the area. I had been having some intermittent loss of my broadband service and Comcast basically insisted that I have them out to check out the signal.

It turns out that my upstream power required was out of spec due, so the tech (who could have taken an easier way out) runs a new line under the house (very nasty crawlspace) to a dedicated port in my office. Two hours of ugly work, and the result has been rock solid connectivity.

All of my dealings with Comcast have been generally more positive and productive than most calls to DTV. While I have many periodic issues with my D* service, I have learned that I can waste a lot of time on the phone and get nowhere.

If Comcast gets a decent box, it will be bye bye to D* for me.

[jrock]

What didn't you like about the HR20? I had an SA8000HD and really didn't like that at all but lot's of TiVo users seem to think the HR20 is pretty good compared to other non TiVo DVR's. Don't get me wrong I love TiVo but Comcast PQ isn't good enough for regular channels compared to DirecTV and that's my only alternative now. That FIOS looks pretty cool and works with the new S3 I read but they don't have that in this area :(

-Joe

[JimSpence]

I have no plans to abandon DirecTV and my HR10-250.
Why? My cable company (TWC) sucks big time and our OTA is lacking.

[T-Wolves]

I was planning to switch to Comcast and the S3, but both next-door neighbors tell me that they have had nothing but grief with their cable, and that they've constantly got to have Comcast out to troubleshoot problems. They were both thinking of switching to DirecTV or Dish.

So I guess I'm stuck with DirecTV for the near future.

[jsnell]

I hear you guys. I paid for NFL Sunday Ticket this year, so I'm riding it out, but I assume that next year I will pay the pretty pennies (and there will be lots of them) and switch to Comcast and a TiVo S3. My loyalty to TiVo is greater than my loyalty to DirecTV, simple as that. DirecTV had me forever if they would have released an MPEG-4 compatible TiVo recorder, but I'm not really interested in using their off-brand DVR. TiVo compatibility was one of the reasons I stuck with DTV, and now it'll be one of the reasons I go. But not until 2007...

[setanta]

Good luck. I considered that route, but like you say, financially it is costly. There is close to $800 a pop for the S3s, plus CC fees, and Tivo fees, which are apparently higher than those for DTivos.



I was concerned that replacing two HR10s with S3s and Tivo three years would be very expensive until I looked closely at the numbers. I was paying close to $120/mo for D*. My Internet (5 megs) was costing $50 or so and my home telephone another $50 or so. I was able to get all consolidated with RCN (could just as easily have been Comcast) at a rate of $100 a month for a year and $140 after that. Internet went to 10 meg in the process.

So, over the lifetime of this equipment say 3 years, I actually save money by dropping D*. Considering I would happily pay more for the night and day difference in quality and performance I get with the Series 3, I think I got a pretty good deal.

Then there's the satisfaction of telling D* to stuff it. They tried to kill Tivo but ended up just losing premium customers like in this forum in droves. They deserve it.

[ebonovic]

Then there's the satisfaction of telling D* to stuff it. They tried to kill Tivo but ended up just losing premium customers like in this forum in droves. They deserve it.

I asked this in the "other" forum.
Please... show me the droves..... of people leaving DirecTV for Cable/FIOS

[setanta]

a little hyperbole perhaps.. but what information do you have to say they are not?

[Runch Machine]

I will chime in that after Directv moves their HD Channels to MPEG4 I will be leaving Directv. By then Series 3 HD Tivo will be cheaper, I will be done with my Directv committment and be finished with Directv.

I have been very happy with Directv since 1997 but continuing declines in PQ on the low def channels and the loss of the Tivo interface are the deciding factors. For now since I get the local channels from a TV antenna there is no reason to change. Like I said, I expect that to be temporary. One of my favorite features is the 30 second skip and I understand that the new Directv DVR only has a 30 second fast forward.

[ebonovic]

a little hyperbole perhaps.. but what information do you have to say they are not?

None... I have the same "forum" postings, of people that have opted for the HR20 and don't miss their HR10's...

So basically, neither side of the argument has hard core facts yet.

[setanta]

None... I have the same "forum" postings, of people that have opted for the HR20 and don't miss their HR10's...

So basically, neither side of the argument has hard core facts yet.

hmm.. and you really don't work for D* :-)

So it's agreed then. The HR10 has become a PoS and one way or other DVR users are dumping it in droves.

As a Tivo fan I was pushed to cable. D* lovers of course can go the HR20 route.

[Sir_winealot]

I will chime in that after Directv moves their HD Channels to MPEG4 I will be leaving Directv. By then Series 3 HD Tivo will be cheaper, I will be done with my Directv committment and be finished with Directv.

I have been very happy with Directv since 1997 but continuing declines in PQ on the low def channels and the loss of the Tivo interface are the deciding factors. For now since I get the local channels from a TV antenna there is no reason to change. Like I said, I expect that to be temporary. One of my favorite features is the 30 second skip and I understand that the new Directv DVR only has a 30 second fast forward.

+1.

Although, if D* would get their ***** together and enable OTA, and dual buffers on the HR20 I'd give the GUI a chance ...but I'm probably leaving for cable and the S3 once our MPEG2 HR10's are 'phased out.'

Everything I've heard leads me to believe I will not like the HR20.

Greed kills ...and D* got greedy .... IMO this will be the S3's gain, and D*'s loss.

[TyroneShoes]

The HR20 is certainly not universally panned, but it sure seems to polarize people. They either think it is OK, or even slightly better than the HR10 because 3.1 is so sluggish and it can't get M4, or like me, they absolutely detest the thing. I "owned" one for a week, and tried to give it a fair shake, but of the 10 PVRs I have owned from 5 diferent vendor sources, the HR20 ranks a distant last in UI capabilty. It actually sets the low end of the scale significantly lower than it had ever been before. The worst POS, for the way I want to interface with a PVR, ever imaginable.

For instance, for some shows that repeat often throughout the week you either have to record all eps including the repeats, or set an individual recording for each ep you want, every time, every week. In no way could that be considered any kind of improvement over the elegant fuzzy-logic assistant built in to Tivo, IMO.

There are a few who just don't known how good Tivo really is and therefore really don't have anything to compare the HR20 to, but that only accounts for newbies, and then only some of them.

II think the reason the HR20 polarizes folks is because different folks have a different idea about how to record, store, and play back TV shows. For those who really love the Tivo UI (and the reason they do is because that approach makes absolute sense to them), the HR20 seems like some kind of sick joke, and having to migrate to it is literally a nightmare. For others who approach these tasks in a different way, and who never really then saw the benefits of Tivo, it seems OK to them.

So, bottom line, if you really love Tivo you will probably hate the HR20. If you think Tivo is just OK, you will probably be OK with the HR20, as well. The best advice is to figure out which camp you are in before you commit to the HR20, which is a bit easier said than done.

[zalusky]

None... I have the same "forum" postings, of people that have opted for the HR20 and don't miss their HR10's...

So basically, neither side of the argument has hard core facts yet.

Earl,

It's more than a coke/pepsi thing.
1) Some people have lousy cable or no cable choice at all and will stay.
2) Some people are lucky to get FIOS and thats a no brainer to switch.
3) Then there are people in the gray area. The independents if you will.
They might waiver based upon cost or are lazy.
4) There are people who love their Tivo and will follow it with all of its features.
Going to a true Tivo brand will give them more features(web scheduling) with promises of even more (MRV). The WAF is a big deal.

The fact that the new series3 boxes are sold out in most places and are hard to get implies something is going on. Once the price drops, it will even be more interesting.

A year from now will be very interesting. With low value and high value Tivos being offered as well as other brands the cable company will for once offer choice. DTV does not offer that. How would you feel if you could only buy one brand of cell phone from you provider.

Getting to the question of you being a shill. I can't answer that but some people probably react that way because they feel a sort of Fox news approach. You have provided your analysis on a lot of different products, etc but DTV always seems to win the tilt. I can look past that and understand your logic. Too me its much more grey and I prefer the HW competition and would like to send that message.

[HiDefGator]

There's also the possibility that they are "sold out everywhere" because Tivo didn't produce that many in the first batch. Until the quarterly report we won't find out just how many have really been sold. At $800 Tivo isn't going to be selling millions of them no matter how good they are.

[jrock]

For instance, for some shows that repeat often throughout the week you either have to record all eps including the repeats, or set an individual recording for each ep you want, every time, every week.

Hmm, that doesn't sound good. Even the crappy SA8000HD had a record all or first run only option and that thing sucked.

Hey Earl, you have one of these and wrote a review on it, is this true?

Basically what I want in a DVR is the following:

Able to record HD
Able to record 2 things at once
Able to have "season passes"
Able to set "season passes" to first run only
Able to prioritize "season passes"
Able to keep 5-10 or all of each show before deleting
Able to search for HD content only (My S3 doesn't even have this yet :( )
Able to add more space
30 second skip would be nice

The major complaints with my SA8000HD was no prioritization and often shows would not record because of something else conflicting and no one to fix it without canceling the other show. It didn't have 30 second skip which I really am used to on TiVo.

If the HR20 can all the things above I think it will be ok for me. I don't really use Wishlists so that doesn't matter.

-Joe

[helmdawg]

I will probably jump ship as well if and when tivo is no longer available through dtv. However, in speaking with a very nice csr from dtv last week, I vented my frustration about the changes from tivo to their home grown box. The CSR told me that this divorce was initiated by Tivo in which Tivo wanted to raise their prices on all Tivo/DVR combo boxes from $5.99 to $12.99.

The CSR told me that they/dtv just could not pass those fees along to their customers. My point to the CRS was, "why not let the consumer decide?" He also told me that it would not be economically feasible for Dtv to make a profit. (KEY WORD, "profit"!)

Basically comes down to Greed!!!!!!!!!!!!

[harley3k]

I will probably jump ship as well if and when tivo is no longer available through dtv. However, in speaking with a very nice csr from dtv last week, I vented my frustration about the changes from tivo to their home grown box. The CSR told me that this divorce was initiated by Tivo in which Tivo wanted to raise their prices on all Tivo/DVR combo boxes from $5.99 to $12.99.

The CSR told me that they/dtv just could not pass those fees along to their customers. My point to the CRS was, "why not let the consumer decide?" He also told me that it would not be economically feasible for Dtv to make a profit. (KEY WORD, "profit"!)

Basically comes down to Greed!!!!!!!!!!!!

Businesses all operate under the concept of 'greed'. That's capitalism for you. Even when they offer great customer service it is ultimately out of greed; and not because they genuinely care about you. They just want your money, and if they're in a competitive business that requires they give good service to keep your business then the successful companies will do just that...but they don't 'care' about me...just my money. Which is perfectly fine. Money talks.

I don't blame them for being greedy. In fact if they would've been really greedy they should've offered the Tivo DVR fee at $12.95 to me or even more. I and a lot of people would've paid for it. Giving people a choice is great customer service, and great for profit and ultimately greedy. People pay how much for Sunday Ticket and SuperFan?!?! A few bucks higher for Tivo fee seems like a no brainer thing to offer - especially if its optional.

-h

[btwyx]

I will probably jump ship as well if and when tivo is no longer available through dtv. However, in speaking with a very nice csr from dtv last week, I vented my frustration about the changes from tivo to their home grown box. The CSR told me that ...You actually beleive anything a CSR says has any basis in reality?

[Howie]

I have an HR10 and an HR20. I've had the Tivo since it first came out a couple of years back, and I love the thing. That being said, If the HR20 had dual buffers (which is in the works, I've heard rumored), I would like it better. It's much faster and you can upgrade capacity without even opening the box. It just takes a little getting used to if you're accustomed to a Tivo.

[TyroneShoes]

You actually beleive anything a CSR says has any basis in reality?
As Fox Mulder once said, "even a broken clock is right 730 times a year".

[btwyx]

As Fox Mulder once said, "even a broken clock is right 730 times a year".That's still zero % of the time.

[nrc]

None... I have the same "forum" postings, of people that have opted for the HR20 and don't miss their HR10's...

There's no question that DirecTV is losing some TiVo subscribers. Enough to show up on their balance sheet? Probably not immediately. But I really doubt that DTV is signing up a lot of new subscribers because they're excited about their new generic DVR. That spells churn.

According to the figures I've seen DTV w/Tivo users had much lower churn than typical DTV users and much lower than generic cable DVR users. If DTV's generic DVR can't match TiVo's retention rate it will eventually show up on their bottom line.

[kcl]

Sorry, folks. It wasn't my intent for this to be a DirecTV bashing thread. I was just commenting that, as a long-time DirecTV/Tivo/Replay user, this was a decision that makes the most sense for me. (By the way, I don't know why my message count is almost non-existent. With low-to-moderate posting over the last 6+ years, I know that my message count was in the hundreds at some time in the past.) This is simply a migration that I've decided on based on my wants, needs, and the evolving technology. Heck, over the years I've gone from OTA Tivo, to Comcast/C-band Satellite Replay, to DirecTV Tivo, to HD DirectTV Tivo, and now to HD Comcast Series 3 Tivo. Technology changes. Companies change. My needs change. Why would anybody think that the same equipment should be sufficient to support all of that change? As for the cost, even two S3s at full cost is just a small percentage of the total cost of our home theater/entertainment system. (Shoot, just the speakers. :D)

[Lenarro]

Since I dropped them D* has been calling a lot to try and get me back. Free this, free that, but I already Tivo'd up with cable. Since I stopped answering the phone they call almost every day (caller ID), but reading these threads makes me comfortable I did the right thing. They sound a bit desperate though.

[bidger]

$800 + $200 for Lifetime transfer, Cable Card issues, Switched Digital Video (since I'm in a TWC area), S3 not CC 2.0 compatible, lack of CBS & FOX HD and no NFL Network from TWC, the fact that I'm seeing all kinds of copyright issues threads/posts for S3 (not to say that couldn't at some point happen with a D* DVR, but it hasn't yet)...if you live somewhere with good reception for all the digital network feeds OTA I can see where the S3 would be a good investment, but that's not my situation.

TiVo pretty much drew a line in the sand as far as I'm concerned when they dropped Lifetime. Yeah, I know all the, "But TiVo's gotta survive" mantra, but they weren't worried about it when Replay was around. Every SA I've purchased was with Lifetime so they pretty much told me, "We go no further with you".

I'm sorry, but DVR service for $13/mo. is unrealistic. It's the primary reason why people turn away from TiVo. But hey, it's good to see you folks who said you'd go where TiVo went back up the talk.

And Lenarro, any mutlichannel service you leave will make an effort to win you back. Funny thing is, it took TWC several years to realize I'd left.

[bwaldron]

I am rooting for Tivo and the S3 to succeed. I'm not rooting hard enough to switch back to my particular cable company...too many downsides right now...but I would like to see someone outside the content providers themselves succeed in this market.

I am skeptical about their chances. At the current price point, they'll reach some current Tivoholics but I can't see them winning many new converts. With new developments like switched digital video, the risk is there that the S3 units will lose functionality.

But I hope they succeed...

[TyroneShoes]

There's no question that DirecTV is losing some TiVo subscribers. Enough to show up on their balance sheet? Probably not immediately. But I really doubt that DTV is signing up a lot of new subscribers because they're excited about their new generic DVR. That spells churn...
There are lots of indicators of company health (or lack of) for DBS, including subscriber growth/erosion, churn levels, and gross revenue. The jettisoning of Tivo had more to do with them not having to continue to fork over some of each subscriber's payment to Tivo than anything else. So churn and erosion will be ignored if them getting to keep more of our dough means the gross revenue goes up. The Tivo factor would have to also impact the bottom line somewhat for it to be taken seriously, because when such a decision is made, it takes a lot of denial to accept that it might have been a bad one, and as long as they can hang on to one positive indicator they will never admit defeat.

[davsherm]

But I really doubt that DTV is signing up a lot of new subscribers because they're excited about their new generic DVR. That spells churn.
DTV has shipped so many of their new generic DVR's that they are out of stock and can't fill orders. Yes the box has some issues, but guess what - so does the S3. There are several HR20 owners that think the ui of the HR20 is better than Tivo, and at $299 retail (or even cheaper - including free) vs $800 retail how many "droves" of DTV users are going to leave DTV? I can put up with alot for free (yes even no dual buffers or OTA). Another thing most people on this board forget is that if you have never seen Tivo, you have nothing to compare to. So new DVR users are going to be excited to be getting a great deal on a DVR from DTV as compared to Tivo. I know no one wants to hear any of this, they just want hear Directv sucks because I haven't gotten 6.3, or because there are audio drop outs, or we should have had this earlier, blah, blah, blah, when it really boils down to personal choice. Pick whatever DVR - provider that gives you the best deal and/or most choices. And why do you have choices? Competition... With the new S3, HR20, FIOS, HTPCs and the asstd. Cable HD DVRs we have so many choices for recording HD its amazing! One last thought - You have to think the major Cable Co.'s have discussed how to "obsolete" the Tivo S3 so they can get subs off of cheap CCs and back on their DVRs (by using CC2.0 or SDV maybe?), you gotta wonder how long the S3 is really gonna last. There is some churn you have to worry about. Once the S3 starts eating into the Cable Co.'s pocket book, you can bet something will happen.

[Lenarro]

I actually left D* mostly because of their HDlite and lack of HD channels. The Tivo thing was about 25% of the equation. Got a couple of S2 boxes and realized I had been getting short-changed in the Tivo department by D*. Still waiting for the price on the S3 to come down, as the $1000 Hr10-250 still has me (the wife, actually) a bit miffed. I am hoping to sell it on Ebay to defray the S3 cost though.

[Sir_winealot]

DTV has shipped so many of their new generic DVR's that they are out of stock and can't fill orders.

I know that folks are having to wait right now to get these ...but one shouldn't automatically assume that the reason is that they've "shipped so many."

There are many rumors out there....they've been recalled (dispelled), they're being held back while bug-work is being done, that not that many were ready to go to to begin with.

I'd love to see some numbers pertaining to the actual amount produced, shipped to retail, installed etc.

[davsherm]

I know that folks are having to wait right now to get these ...but one shouldn't automatically assume that the reason is that they've "shipped so many."
You are right - it was an uninformed statement on my part, however, it seems shipments have outpaced D*'s initial expectations from some of the things I have heard. Whether this is because every third one is junk and they need to send out replacements or they are actually overshipping expectations, I don't know.

Maybe it is something Earl could chime in on.

I'd love to see some numbers pertaining to the actual amount produced, shipped to retail, installed etc.
I would love to see these numbers too, and for the heck of it, I would like to see the numbers on FIOS and the S3 as well. It would be interesting to find out what the "real story" is.

[zalusky]

DTV has shipped so many of their new generic DVR's that they are out of stock and can't fill orders. Yes the box has some issues, but guess what - so does the S3. There are several HR20 owners that think the ui of the HR20 is better than Tivo, and at $299 retail (or even cheaper - including free) vs $800 retail how many "droves" of DTV users are going to leave DTV? I can put up with alot for free (yes even no dual buffers or OTA). Another thing most people on this board forget is that if you have never seen Tivo, you have nothing to compare to. So new DVR users are going to be excited to be getting a great deal on a DVR from DTV as compared to Tivo. I know no one wants to hear any of this, they just want hear Directv sucks because I haven't gotten 6.3, or because there are audio drop outs, or we should have had this earlier, blah, blah, blah, when it really boils down to personal choice. Pick whatever DVR - provider that gives you the best deal and/or most choices. And why do you have choices? Competition... With the new S3, HR20, FIOS, HTPCs and the asstd. Cable HD DVRs we have so many choices for recording HD its amazing! One last thought - You have to think the major Cable Co.'s have discussed how to "obsolete" the Tivo S3 so they can get subs off of cheap CCs and back on their DVRs (by using CC2.0 or SDV maybe?), you gotta wonder how long the S3 is really gonna last. There is some churn you have to worry about. Once the S3 starts eating into the Cable Co.'s pocket book, you can bet something will happen.


If the cable company really didnt want Tivo why would they embrace installing tivo software on the motorola unit coming this january. Those units will support on demand and SDV. Of course it will probably be a Tivo Lite version of software but it will be Tivo software and Tivo will get paid.

The cable company wants you to subscribe (first), hardware is a secondary.

[davsherm]

If the cable company really didnt want Tivo why would they embrace installing tivo software on the motorola unit coming this january. Those units will support on demand and SDV. Of course it will probably be a Tivo Lite version of software but it will be Tivo software and Tivo will get paid.
The cable company wants you to subscribe (first), hardware is a secondary.
Sure they want Tivo, on their terms, on their boxes, why are they putting Tivo on a Motorola box, not a Tivo box?. I don't imagine they are happy with competition from the S3.

I agree they want subs first, but they also want every dime they can get out of those subs. So I can't imagine they are overly happy with people dumping their (crappy) DVR's and going to S3.

[HiDefGator]

One reason I'm staying with Directv for now is every story I read says that in the near future, DTV will have far more HD capability that any cable company. Supposedly next year DirecTV will have room for 150 national HD channels plus locals in HD. Cable on the other hand will need to replace a huge amount of equipment all over the country to get more HD room. So far cable's solution is SDV which is still costly for them to roll out and breaks the S3 at the same time. I doubt there will 150 national HD channels for them to carry but they can always broadcast SD feeds over an HD channel and it will look better. At this point I'd even be happy with more HD PPV channels.

[kbohip]

I will chime in that after Directv moves their HD Channels to MPEG4 I will be leaving Directv. By then Series 3 HD Tivo will be cheaper, I will be done with my Directv committment and be finished with Directv.

I have been very happy with Directv since 1997 but continuing declines in PQ on the low def channels and the loss of the Tivo interface are the deciding factors. For now since I get the local channels from a TV antenna there is no reason to change. Like I said, I expect that to be temporary. One of my favorite features is the 30 second skip and I understand that the new Directv DVR only has a 30 second fast forward.

+2. I'll start off by saying I really like Directv. The PQ has definitely gone down but overall I still think they're a way better company than E* when it comes to customer service and fees. I'm also royally pissed that it's taken them SO long to come out with 6.3, and when they do, it's buggy! I STILL haven't got the upgrade yet.

Having said that though I don't know if I'll be able to live with the HR20 when I'm forced to switch to it and I refuse to get locked into another ridiculous 2 year contract with them. I'll have to wait and see how the HR20 progresses through with each software update. If it becomes a lot more reliable I'll probably stay with Directv.

If Comcast gets a Tivo box I'll switch to them for a month or so to see how their service is (while still keeping Directv). If I find the service isn't much worse than Directv I'll switch. It also depends on how well I like their version of Tivo too. If they come out with another 15 hour HD DVR there's no way I'd switch to them. The nice thing about Comcast is there are no dumb contracts so I can test them out.

[zalusky]

I dont blame you for wanting to see where everybody is going. Satellite has a tough road to haul since they can really only offer oneway. Which is why Rupert is looking at selling DirecTV. If he does that. Who's to say what kind of future capital investment may be made. IPTV is on the horizon and may start stealing away customers from DTV. The S3 could conceivably do streaming from IP networks and does not require a cable service.

We will have to see what DTV can do. Unless they get some sort of broadband partner, there long term future is limited.

[btwyx]

One reason I'm staying with Directv for now is every story I read says that in the near future, DTV will have far more HD capability that any cable company. Supposedly next year DirecTV will have room for 150 national HD channels plus locals in HD. Cable on the other hand will need to replace a huge amount of equipment all over the country to get more HD room. So far cable's solution is SDV which is still costly for them to roll out and breaks the S3 at the same time. None of those channels will appear on a TiVo with the current situation, that's my big beef with D*.

Cable doesn't need to go SDV, it needs to go all digital. My cable company is moving towards all digital, its currently simulcasting analog and digital of the same channels. If it took away the analog versions, it'd be able to double its channel space, it could manage 50-100 more HD channels, or 250-500 more SD channels (or some mix of the the two). They already have a really cheap digital box they could give away to the analog hold outs.

[HiDefGator]

My understanding is that going "all digital, instead of SDV" is not what cable companies are thinking though. Cable has a LOT of low end customers that only buy basic cable and the thought of having to give them digital boxes for EVERY tv in the house is not very appealing.

And that assumes that the licensing agreements they have with various cities and states would allow them to do that. I think it will be a long time before you see a cable company go all digital and drop analog completely. But technology changes every day so who knows what will happen next year or the year after.

[SHOMan]

My understanding is that going "all digital, instead of SDV" is not what cable companies are thinking though. Cable has a LOT of low end customers that only buy basic cable and the thought of having to give them digital boxes for EVERY tv in the house is not very appealing.

And that assumes that the licensing agreements they have with various cities and states would allow them to do that. I think it will be a long time before you see a cable company go all digital and drop analog completely. But technology changes every day so who knows what will happen next year or the year after.

They are going to have to do that (provide boxes) in Feb 2009 regardless. Not really that far away.

[zalusky]

Well I made the disconnect call to DTV. I made it clear to them it wasnt a question of money. I had Total Choice Premier and 4 DVRs.

It was about choice and how I was upset when they pulled the receiver stuff in house. I explained how I came to DTV for Tivo and leaving because they will not offer next generation in the technology that I can choose.

She was kind of stuck for debating points. She tried to say that the other providers are going to single HW solutions as well. Which is sort of bogus because Cable Card provides choice and once IPTV takes off we wont have to deal with the middleman.

I am not going to say the S3 is the greatest although I am pretty happy, I am just going to say I get to decide, not the provider.

[HiDefGator]

They are going to have to do that (provide boxes) in Feb 2009 regardless. Not really that far away.

I don't believe that is true. I could be wrong. Only OTA stations must be converted to all digital. Cable can still carry analog for as long as they choose to do it. The only reason analog is being banished is so the government can reclaim the ota bandwidth. How cable transmits its stations is of no concern to them.

[TyroneShoes]

I don't believe that is true. I could be wrong. Only OTA stations must be converted to all digital. Cable can still carry analog for as long as they choose to do it. The only reason analog is being banished is so the government can reclaim the ota bandwidth. How cable transmits its stations is of no concern to them.
Feb 17th 2009 is the set date for analog shutoff for terrestrial, but the last info I heard is that cable will get a 5-year extension beyond that, meaning that cable channels such as FX and USA can exist as NTSC for some time.

It seems that it would make sense for cable to go all digital somewhere around the 2009 drop-dead date, because there will be a big push for customer awareness and digital TV at that time, but I would guess that many cable ops will continue with analog delivery well into the 5-yr extension. After that, we will see a lot of garden-variety cable channels go to 720 and 1080, but will still see some low-ball channels at 480 and 480W.

[mtchamp]

I already made my decision in August before the S3 came out. I dumped DirecTV after 12 years and yes they did call me twice to get me back. On the second call I was very blunt and told them I took down the dishes and gave them away and I'm done with DirecTV and they havn't called me back.

I'm now with S2's and Comcast with broadband and cable for a net savings over DirecTV and DSL. I'll be buying at least 2 S3's as the price comes down and software is improved before the Lifetime Transfer expires 12/31/06.

I had to follow TiVo to the next level. I will have the additional choice of using the S3's with FIOS within a couple of years. It's been approved in the next town and it's just a matter of time. I feel the excitement again of fixing a problem, investing in new technology and taking control as I once did dumping cable for DirecTV in 94.