New slingbox does component-in, why not Tivo?

[dbtom]

For a long time we have been assuming that the Tivo could not due component-in because the encoding the steams would require professional equipment costing several thousand dollars. Now it turns out that the new SlingBox Pro can do component-in for about $300.

The Slingbox will only stream 640 x 480 widescreen, but I bet that could be tweaked if it wasn't being streamed over the Internet. Even if it couldn't, that resolution would probably look pretty good. DVDs still look pretty good on an HDTV.

http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15265/

http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15267/

I'm sure I'll get flamed by all of those who think component-in would be "too complicated" and "too expensive" and that the s3 "replaces your cable box." I just wish Tivo could have found a way to make this work so that we could use satellite and cable boxes. The dual cable-card solution is not nearly as smooth as it should be for many folks including myself.

[sommerfeld]

For a long time we have been assuming that the Tivo could not due component-in because the encoding the steams would require professional equipment costing several thousand dollars. Now it turns out that the new SlingBox Pro can do component-in for about $300.

The Slingbox will only stream 640 x 480 widescreen, but I bet that could be tweaked if it wasn't being streamed over the Internet.

I bet they can only do it cheaply because (a) they're only doing 640x480, and (b) they don't have to build a box which stores tens of hours of signal.

a S3 "component in" which downconverted everything to 480p would mean that satellite TV users would be no better off with the $800 S3 than with the ~free S2.

[ITGuy72]

The Slingbox will only stream 640 x 480 widescreen, but I bet that could be tweaked if it wasn't being streamed over the Internet..Having read the first link, it appears connecting remotely the best you can get is 320x240, and 640x480 on the LAN in HQ mode.

[dbtom]

I think the lower resolutions they are using is to make the stream smoother. If you weren't sending video over the network, you could probably use less compression. My guess is that the hard part is the component-in part. The compression is probably easy.

Also DirecTV is generally thought to be putting out 540 lines so downconverting to 480 would not be a huge problem.

If you assume that the Tivo could just add all the components of this box then Tivo S3 would cost $1100. I would definitely pay the incremental amount and I'm sure there are others like me.

[sommerfeld]

I think the lower resolutions they are using is to make the stream smoother. If you weren't sending video over the network, you could probably use less compression. My guess is that the hard part is the component-in part. The compression is probably easy.
Nope; compressing the signal is the hard part.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Component in has never been the expensive part (in fact, component in could potentially be less expensive, since you don't have to separate the two chroma difference signals from each other.)

Encoding uncompressed HD resolution video gets more expensive, but not necessarily exorbitantly so, if you downscale the HD to SD first.

What was, and still is, impractical, is encoding of uncompressed HD resolution video to MPEG at HD resolution. That this might come in over component isn't really relevant.

[dbtom]

Dennis, Sommerfeld,

Thanks for the response. You appear to be correct in that encoding is more challenging than I would have thought. I searched around and found cards that did 480i and 540i over component.

Just to satisfy my curiousity, do you have any technical links as to how such cards are able to only capture the low res streams? Are there separate streams or can they just skip frames? I would have assumed that you are simply taking the signal that is given and then compressing it.

I guess the capability to capture and encode is coming pretty soon or else the studios wouldn't be making a big deal about the ICT.

[HDTiVo]

First answer, because they are Sling and TiVo is TiVo.

Its quite impressive that they handle up to 1080i input.

Maybe TiVo could explain why not a real modern "DT" with this for more than a flimsy $30 premium.

Anyone know what chips Sling uses (vs. Broadcom @ TiVo?)

[Bodshal]

First answer, because they are Sling and TiVo is TiVo.

Its quite impressive that they handle up to 1080i input.

Maybe TiVo could explain why not a real modern "DT" with this for more than a flimsy $30 premium.

Anyone know what chips Sling uses (vs. Broadcom @ TiVo?)

Ultimately, until someone gets one and identifies what processing the box does, we won't know if it's any good.

The simple fact is that analog->digital conversion gets expensive real fast the higher the rate at which you need to do it, and more so for longer conversion precision (8bit/10/12, etc).

I can imagine that they're locking onto a 1080i signal, but only actually looking at a subset of the frame. With a streaming media box, you won't necessarily notice how crappy this is. Not so much scaling as throwing most of the image away. But this is pure speculation. I've never looked at slingbox - I assume they have a forum where people are speculating ad nausea about this. :)

Chris.

[sommerfeld]

Dennis, Sommerfeld,

Just to satisfy my curiousity, do you have any technical links as to how such cards are able to only capture the low res streams? Are there separate streams or can they just skip frames?

It's always easier to throw away data than to compress it in a way that allows most or all of the original detail to be recovered.

I would have assumed that you are simply taking the signal that is given and then compressing it.

My assumption would be that the slingbox is throwing away roughly every other scanline and roughly every other pixel on each scanline. with a little more work or you could average together pairs of scanlines and pixels, only buffering a couple scanlines at full resolution.

MPEG-style compression involves buffering multiple frames, and comparing them and compressing the differences between each frame. At a very high level, compression algorithms involve searching for a more compact description which retains most or all of the original data, and the higher the compression ratio and the larger the set of possible compact encodings, the more compute horsepower is required.

decompression is usually much easier than compression, since the decompressor simply follows the instructions the compressor spent lots of time figuring out...

I guess the capability to capture and encode is coming pretty soon or else the studios wouldn't be making a big deal about the ICT.

I'd think we'll see reasonable-cost HD-quality compressor chips appear when someone figures out that the market is ready for a consumer-grade 720p/1080i/1080p HD camcorder.

You can build consumer-grade HD DVR's without HD compression because HD is always transmitted digitally. Camcorders start with an inherently analog input...

[bkdtv]

The relatively new chip in the Slingbox Pro only supports 640x480 output.

A Series3 wouldn't be much use if it could only record HDTV signals in SD resolution, which is what the Series2 [effectively] does already when connected the s-video output of a cable box.

[CCourtney]

First answer, because they are Sling and TiVo is TiVo.

Its quite impressive that they handle up to 1080i input.

Maybe TiVo could explain why not a real modern "DT" with this for more than a flimsy $30 premium.

Anyone know what chips Sling uses (vs. Broadcom @ TiVo?)

SlingBox uses a Texas Instruments DSP to do the video processing.

[HDTiVo]

Sling apparently thinks HD input is worthwhile, and their opinion beats TiVo's any day.

The component input certainly is better quality and more likely to offer full resolution/anamorphic signals to record than the S input.

From a marketing standpoint, just being able to say you've got component/HD input is far more important than any real quality enhancement. But, of course, TiVo knows all about that having just built a Lexus dealership.

[CCourtney]

Sling apparently thinks HD input is worthwhile, and their opinion beats TiVo's any day.

The component input certainly is better quality and more likely to offer full resolution/anamorphic signals to record than the S input.

From a marketing standpoint, just being able to say you've got component/HD input is far more important than any real quality enhancement. But, of course, TiVo knows all about that having just built a Lexus dealership.

Errr.... This is NOT an HD input as sling media currently is only supporting SD video input on it. There are devices out there (such the DVD play I purchased in 1998) that have Component Video Outputs and only support 480i.

Sling media may or may not have plans for supporting HD video feeds (I'd guess so if they want to survive in the market) but they do not support it now.

Component does supply better image quality in general than what composite or S-video, but with good YCrCb->RGB conversion (which would have to be done for composite or s-video) the quality level is still good and then the video compression is going to make it worse.

CCourtney

EDIT: Ok, I'm an idiot. I wasn't aware of the Slingbox Pro's Sling HD connect.

Still simply a downconversion of an analog HD signal and then encoded for transport in SD (or less depending on media.) This is something that will make Slingbox users happy. But not something that would make the vast majority of S3 users happy (sorry I don't want an HD DVR that encodes external source HD in SD .)

[HDTiVo]

Errr.... This is NOT an HD input as sling media currently is only supporting SD video input on it. There are devices out there (such the DVD play I purchased in 1998) that have Component Video Outputs and only support 480i.

Errrrrrrrrrrr...


SLINGBOX HD CONNECT

The Slingbox HD Connect cable is designed especially for the Slingbox PRO. It allows a component high definition signal, in 16:9 aspect ratio and resolutions of 720 p or 1080i, to be passed through the Slingbox PRO. It includes all the necessary cables to connect your high definition source directly to a SLingbox PRO and to your HD TV.
http://us.slingmedia.com/page/slingboxpro.html


One of the exciting new features on the Slingbox Pro is a high-definition capable input, though it requires a separate accessory to take advantage of it. For $49.99, you can grab a component video dongle that allows you to throw 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals into your Slingbox. Keep in mind, the Slingbox doesn’t stream them at HD resolutions, but instead internally scales them to 640 x 480 over LAN in HQ mode, and 320 x 240 when connecting remotely.
http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15265/

[davezatz]

Ultimately, until someone gets one and identifies what processing the box does, we won't know if it's any good.
I have one... I'll take a look tonight and see if I can open it. Though, as was mentioned, a TI DSP chip powers it. Maybe the model is easy to track down on the web without me breaking the box? :)

First answer, because they are Sling and TiVo is TiVo.
I have no idea what that means, but it sure is amusing. ;)

Having read the first link, it appears connecting remotely the best you can get is 320x240, and 640x480 on the LAN in HQ mode.

I would like to believe with more and more folks getting super highspeed uplinks out of their homes, Sling will remove or bump this cap. I think they keep it throttled to maintain decent picture quality rather than worrying about the stream choking on limited bandwidth.

The obvious question (to me) is when are they going to add a ATSC tuner to the box? The other one is what is the max supported resolution of that chip... we're at 640x480 now, but can it go higher?

[HDTiVo]

The obvious question (to me) is when are they going to add a ATSC tuner to the box? The other one is what is the max supported resolution of that chip... we're at 640x480 now, but can it go higher?
You don't need no stinkin' ATSC tuner. There is no HD input. ;)

My understanding is that Sling uses MPEG4. The step up from chips that can encode at 320x240 to 640x480 is a big one, and I would guess is it for that chip - still very curious though.

Of course, TiVo does MPEG2 at up to 720x480...which further begs the question...



P.S. the new tuner does NTSC...but can they sell it past XXX XXth, 200X?

[davezatz]

My understanding is that Sling uses MPEG4. The step up from chips that can encode at 320x240 to 640x480 is a big one, and I would guess is it for that chip - still very curious though.

P.S. the new tuner does NTSC...but can they sell it past XXX XXth, 200X?

In the original Slingbox, they use WMV not MPEG4. I assume they still do, though strangely I never researched it.

Both the Tuner and Pro models have internal NTSC tuners. I think the deadline is next spring when you must include an ATSC tuner IF you provide a NTSC one. Hopefully Sling knows that and has a plan. Also something I haven't chatted with them about (that's probabyl worth pursuing). TiVo is kinda cheating with the DT (assuming it continues in its current state) by not allowing you to tune OTA - though in theory it is technically possible.

[HDTiVo]

WMV kinda is MPEG4, but its good to know the details too.

[davezatz]

WMV kinda is MPEG4, but its good to know the details too.

Kinda... I guess where my thoughts were taking me were it's a new chip and we've seen "WMV HD" VC-1 out in the world - could those higher resolutions be possible with this hardware. I imagine it would take a LOT of horsepower to encode at higher resolutions on the fly for "live" transmission - since the Slingbox Pro has a lot of plastic I'm guessing not since it would melt. ;)

[vstone]

Just about every ATSC and QAM HD receiver can output an S-video signal, so downrezzing HD to SD is easy. I would just assume that the Slingbox Pro takes the HD signal, downrezzes it and then compress it like before. Maybe it has a newer (ie bettter) chip doing the compression.

A chip that could both is probably easily achievable.

Sommerfeld mentioned that maybe they throw away every other line. I belive that DVD players output anormorphic DVD's to a 4:3 display by throwing away every fourth line.

[HDTiVo]

As far as the WAN limit to 320x240, I hope it is just artificial for the moment.

They should need less than 2mb/sec for very good 640x480 and their design dynamically changes bandwidth usage/resolution, so they ought to be able to work it all out.

[davezatz]

Good news, the 320x240 setting on the WAN can be manually bypassed! So if you've got a fat pipe, you should be in good shape. My speeds out are limited to about 350Kbps which isn't much and I was stuttering at 640x480. I imagine many folks with the more expensive cable plans or FiOS would have better luck. :)

[HDTiVo]

Good news, the 320x240 setting on the WAN can be manually bypassed!
Well, that solves that. :D

[rodalpho]

Yeah, it uses VC-1 compression, which is windows media and pretty close to mpeg-4 in bitrates and compression ratios. Still pretty impressive that they can encode mpeg-4 at 640x480 in realtime in consumer hardware like that.

[MichaelK]

I...
...
I'd think we'll see reasonable-cost HD-quality compressor chips appear when someone figures out that the market is ready for a consumer-grade 720p/1080i/1080p HD camcorder.
...



I think the time is now. Sanyo has had the Xacti HDC-1 out for around 6 months. It takes a 5 megapixel imaging chip and creates a 720P 30fps mpeg4 file that it saves to an SD card.

It's not boradcast quaility or anything but it costs only like 6-700 dollars.

I think sony just came out with a version for around twice that that records to a hard drive. Supposed to be much higher quality.

If these people can take the raw data from an imaging chip and compress it to mpeg4 in real time, I dont understand the differnce between takign the raw uncompressed data from HDMI or DVI?

am I missing something?

[dbtom]

As I have been reading all the posts on the the forums I'm getting the sense that the lack of video-in is less of a technical limitation and more of a need to make-nice with the content providers. It's probably challenging (I underestimated the initial technical challenge) but analog encoding could probably be done in some less than ideal way.

Analog encoding, MRV, tivo2go are all things the content providers don't want. Seeing that the S3 is deleting shows based on the networks' tag suggests that Tivo could be much different in the future. Sounds like Slingbox can do the encoding because they are being gunslingers!

[TexasGrillChef]

Well we all know that Content Providers are all Dumb Ass's anyway... Content Providers you listening? LOL

I am using my slingbox's (4 in total) as replacements for MRV & TTG. I have a PDA phone a great Internet plan with it.

My Cable modem is now capable of doing 1mb upstream. I VPN into my network the initiate my Slingbox player. Thus the system thinks I am "In Network" and I get my full 640x480 instead of being limted to my 320x240.

Of course 320x240 is just fine for my PDA phone though.

Thus for me I have the best form of Tivo To go, & MRV... MRV & Tivo To go works for me anywhere I can get an internet connection with either my laptop or PDA phone.

My wife & I have tested, with our 1mbs upstream on the cable modem. we both can connect to a slingbox & still get great picture.

TexasGrillChef...

Tivo/Slingbox.... May not be perfect yet.. but its always getting better....

[eisenb11]

As I have been reading all the posts on the the forums I'm getting the sense that the lack of video-in is less of a technical limitation and more of a need to make-nice with the content providers. It's probably challenging (I underestimated the initial technical challenge) but analog encoding could probably be done in some less than ideal way.

Analog encoding, MRV, tivo2go are all things the content providers don't want. Seeing that the S3 is deleting shows based on the networks' tag suggests that Tivo could be much different in the future. Sounds like Slingbox can do the encoding because they are being gunslingers!

It's actually an expense limitation. The compresion of analog HD requires a lot of power and will not be cheap.

Remember, in order to work, the analog HD would have to be converted in real time. So that means we need a fast and powerful chip...

$$$$ <-- short answer to the analog HD concern.

[megazone]

Yeah, it uses VC-1 compression, which is windows media and pretty close to mpeg-4 in bitrates and compression ratios. Still pretty impressive that they can encode mpeg-4 at 640x480 in realtime in consumer hardware like that.Not too impressive at this time - there are other devices with similar abilities, and I expect we'll be seeing more and more of them. The chips are just hitting the right price point for wider adoption.

By the time the Series4 comes out TiVo will probably switch to MPEG-4 for analog encoding. :-)

[MichaelK]

...

By the time the Series4 comes out TiVo will probably switch to MPEG-4 for analog encoding. :-)

...and HD encoding from analog inputs or maybe even HDMI (while obeying the HDCP restrictions on the recorded content....)

[HDTiVo]

By the time the S4 comes out Sling will be doing MPEG-6 @ 2160p.

[MichaelK]

Lol

[vstone]

...
By the time the Series4 comes out TiVo will probably switch to MPEG-4 for analog encoding. :-)or throw out analog altogether.

On the other hand, I'm little surprised (not much) surprised that the S3 didn't do this, or more to the point, the Dual Tuner Series2. I guess the MPEG4 chips cost a lot. Engineering the software to talk to chips that perform roughly the same functions as older ones shouldn't have been too hard.

[MichaelK]

or throw out analog altogether.

On the other hand, I'm little surprised (not much) surprised that the S3 didn't do this, or more to the point, the Dual Tuner Series2. I guess the MPEG4 chips cost a lot. Engineering the software to talk to chips that perform roughly the same functions as older ones shouldn't have been too hard.


I think the S2DT being built on the mpeg2 S2 platform as opposed to the MPEG2+4 S3 platform had to do with time to market. It probably would have taken another year to get it out if it was based on the guts of the series3 that has mepg2/4 playback.


that said the s2dt has a model number more like the s3 than the s2's and apparently that means something. So maybe it is based on the s3 design somehow but the mpeg2+4 chips are still too expensive to put in the mass market commodity S2dt?

[HDTiVo]

or throw out analog altogether.

On the other hand, I'm little surprised (not much) surprised that the S3 didn't do this, or more to the point, the Dual Tuner Series2. I guess the MPEG4 chips cost a lot. Engineering the software to talk to chips that perform roughly the same functions as older ones shouldn't have been too hard.
Encoding MPEG4 @640x480 is very new; DT came out 6 months ago; disk space savings for SD with MPEG4 are not that huge when considering current disk capacities and prices; and the recordings would be incompatible with other S2s, so no MRV.

If the roughly $100 retail premium for the SlingPro is indicative of what the premium for a DT would be, there are tons of much more important things TiVo could have included for that price.

[MichaelK]

great points- i never even thought of mrv- that's a biggie

[Free]

Just bought the Slinbox Pro, and it doesn't work with the S3.

The first dissapointment was that the Pro does not come with the HD Dongle, and it is not available, so the whole component input is pointless.

The second issue is that the IR does not work. I called Sling Media tech support and they do not support the S3 yet, and all they could do is apologize to me.

Wasted a lot of my time, and I don't know if I will ever buy one of their products again. :(