Bottom Line - is noise on 750gig from Weakknees Acceptable? [Text View]

Canoehead

10-04-2006, 12:51 PM

If you put a gun to my head, I would say wait for the DB35...

Really? If you put a gun to MY head, I'll say just about anything you want :D

Seriously though, thanks all for the feedback - I figure in a fairly noisy family room it should be ok, and I plan to perform the operation this weekend. If something much better comes along, then the new drive will always be able to find a home in my computer.

btwyx

10-04-2006, 07:44 PM

I hardly notice it any more. If I think about it I can hear it sometimes. If I don't think about it I hardly ever notice it. With the TV at reasonable volume you can hardly hear it. It sounds like its quietend down, but that may just be me getting used to it.

TexasGrillChef

10-05-2006, 01:22 PM

davidwsica

10-05-2006, 01:28 PM

I have the Seagate 750gb DB35. I can't hear it with the TV on. When the TV is off..its all closed up in a "Entertainment" center so I can't hear it at all either. One thing Is My DLP TV's fan is louder then the drive is.
TexasGrillChef

Are you sure you have the DB35? Seagate just told me today that they're not shipping the 750GB DB35 until the end of the calendar year! If you're sure, let us know where you got it.

megaphore

10-05-2006, 01:58 PM

My 750gb segate is more than acceptable. I hardly notice it when I'm sitting in my living room and it's much quieter than my computers.

snathanb

10-05-2006, 01:58 PM

I have the Seagate 750gb DB35. I can't hear it with the TV on. When the TV is off..its all closed up in a "Entertainment" center so I can't hear it at all either. One thing Is My DLP TV's fan is louder then the drive is.

TexasGrillChef

I don't think you have the 750GB DB35... but I could be wrong.

Nalez

10-07-2006, 10:03 AM

I will agree, this is a noisy drive. In my tivo, this drive is only going to stick around until the ESATA is enabled, or the db35 hits a halfway decent price.

On another note, with this drive, I have noticed the grid guide is much faster, so having a louder (and quicker) drive does have its advantages as well.

scottb4u

10-07-2006, 10:32 AM

OK--I've lived with it for a week now, and the drive is way too loud. Totally unacceptable for the Tivo application.

No more "gun to the head"...Wait for the DB35, period...

davidwsica

10-07-2006, 11:09 AM

OK--I've lived with it for a week now, and the drive is way too loud. Totally unacceptable for the Tivo application.

No more "gun to the head"...Wait for the DB35, period...

I agree, I'll likely be going for the DB35 when it arrives. After installing the 750GB yesterday, it was very noticeable even during playback, quite annoying, I hope I get used to it until DB35.

supasta

10-07-2006, 12:32 PM

I was looking at the prices on the Tivo remotes and I decided I can't even avoid the S3 remote let alone an S3.

Tim S
Where are you finding these for sale? I cannot find them anywhere!

stahta01

10-07-2006, 10:47 PM

Where are you finding these for sale? I cannot find them anywhere!

I never found an S3 remote either, but from the S2 prices there is no way I can afford an S3 one.

Tim S

Canoehead

10-08-2006, 10:55 AM

Well, I did the operation. Besides the minor detail that the TiVo utterly died when I plugged it back in (or perhaps died before, but said death only became apparent upon plugging), which led to a quick trip into the city to exchange for one of the only 2 that CircuitCity had left in NYC, install drive in the new Tivo, Error 51, complete wipe etc...

Oh right - the new drive - definitely louder than the old drive (which was effectively silent from the couch). Indexing definitely noticeable when TV is off.

Me: Hon, do you think the new tivo drive is too loud

Her: What sound - huh?

Me: That rapid clicking sound

Her: Oh, is that what it is - I thought is was the neighbours.

Me: So?

Her: This is how we get the extra 60 hours of HD?

Me: Yup

Her: It's fine

Looks like we have a winner

gmcc

10-08-2006, 11:25 AM

Seriously though, thanks all for the feedback - I figure in a fairly noisy family room it should be ok, and I plan to perform the operation this weekend. If something much better comes along, then the new drive will always be able to find a home in my computer.

Just trivia here really, but I have a fairly new Seagate 200G in my computer (a ST3200820AS) that was advertised by Seagate as having "Seagate SoftSonic motor enables whisper-quiet operation.".

The motor may indeed be quiet but when that drive seeks it certainly makes some hammering racket The stepper is just pretty loud. Of course it's not in my living room in this case.

George

snarkoplepsy

10-10-2006, 08:30 PM

I have a weaknees expanded S3, and I find it annoyingly loud.

I would consider waiting until they switch to quieter drives.

snarkoplepsy

10-12-2006, 02:19 PM

Let me amend that: If your Tivo is out in the open, I would definitely wait.

But if your Tivo is going to be in a closed cabinet (e.g. an entertainment center with glass doors), it should be ok.

RandyDtg

10-29-2006, 08:40 PM

I only noticed the noises because of the comments here! No one in my house has said anything, and you only hear the noise when all is very quiet and the TV is off. Absolutely have never heard it when watching TV!! Got my S3 750G from TC Store, the next day.

Should I worry that the drive life will be less because of the drive noise, I think so.... ?

btwyx

10-30-2006, 01:16 AM

Weaknees now have some secret sauce and the drives are much (MUCH!) quieter. They really are inaudible after they've been quietened. They'll upgrade your old noisy drive for free.

DCIFRTHS

10-30-2006, 05:46 AM

Weaknees now have some secret sauce and the drives are much (MUCH!) quieter. They really are inaudible after they've been quietened. They'll upgrade your old noisy drive for free.

Did you exchange your drive? If so, what model is it?

EDIT: After rereading your post, it seems like they are modifying the original drive - not replacing it with a new one. Would this be correct? If so, did you send the drive back for the upgrade? Did you receive the exact same model back? Sounds like they may have a firmware update for the drive.

DCIFRTHS

10-30-2006, 05:51 AM

I agree, I'll likely be going for the DB35 when it arrives. ...

I can't find the DB35 in stock anywhere. If someone finds it, I would appreciate a post (or PM) where. Thanks!

btwyx

10-30-2006, 02:29 PM

Did you exchange your drive? If so, what model is it?

EDIT: After rereading your post, it seems like they are modifying the original drive - not replacing it with a new one. Would this be correct? If so, did you send the drive back for the upgrade? Did you receive the exact same model back? Sounds like they may have a firmware update for the drive.You send them your drive, they send it back to you upgraded, and with programming etc intact. I can't find the page where Weaknees talks about this at the moment, so I can give a link.

What they do is under NDA, so they're not telling. Various theories are:

1. Tweeking mode pages
2. Upgrading the firmware and tweeking the mode pages
3. Swapping the controller board
4. Swapping the drive and copying you data.

I think 4 is unlikely. I didn't examine the drive hard enough to say if it is, or is not, a hardware swap of some description.

btwyx

10-30-2006, 02:29 PM

I can't find the DB35 in stock anywhere. If someone finds it, I would appreciate a post (or PM) where. Thanks!As far as I know, DB35s are not yet available.

10-30-2006, 02:37 PM

DB35 drives are out, but not the 750GB SATA one that many of us want. Someone mentioned the end of the year.

tivoupgrade

10-30-2006, 08:31 PM

It will be about a month before we can get the DB35 SATA versions of the drive; not sure that they will be available to the general public as they are only going to be available to 'integrators' - at least that is what our distributors are telling us today.

We've not had any complaints about the current SATA 750GB drives so if the new DB35 drives are actually quieter, although it may be noticable with the cover off, its not clear that its a particularly measurable difference or one that is worth any sort of premium. Time will tell.

My biggest concern is reliability, not performance - Maxtor Quickview drives were not as reliable compared to Seagate or Samsung; time will tell whether the Maxtor quality issues will bleed into Seagates process or whether the overall quality will increase - time will tell on that one, as well.

khill821

10-31-2006, 12:57 AM

Weaknees now have some secret sauce and the drives are much (MUCH!) quieter. They really are inaudible after they've been quietened. They'll upgrade your old noisy drive for free.

I can vouch for this. I purchased the 500GB drive upgrade. I twas very noisy. About two weeks ago Weaknees contacted me about upgrading the drive. They couldn't go into particulars, but I sent them the drive on Monday and had it back on Wednesday. All programming was intact and the drive is now quieter than the original drive that shipped with the TiVo S3.

Bottom line - The Weaknees upgrade will expand your capacity and make your S3 QUIETER!

DCIFRTHS

10-31-2006, 01:06 AM

I can vouch for this. I purchased the 500GB drive upgrade. I twas very noisy. About two weeks ago Weaknees contacted me about upgrading the drive. They couldn't go into particulars, but I sent them the drive on Monday and had it back on Wednesday. All programming was intact and the drive is now quieter than the original drive that shipped with the TiVo S3.

Bottom line - The Weaknees upgrade will expand your capacity and make your S3 QUIETER!

Did you receive the same drive back as the one you sent in? Not your programs, and settings, but the physical drive.

JimPa

10-31-2006, 02:42 AM

I can vouch for this. I purchased the 500GB drive upgrade. I twas very noisy. About two weeks ago Weaknees contacted me about upgrading the drive. They couldn't go into particulars, but I sent them the drive on Monday and had it back on Wednesday. All programming was intact and the drive is now quieter than the original drive that shipped with the TiVo S3.

Bottom line - The Weaknees upgrade will expand your capacity and make your S3 QUIETER!

Don't you mean "expand your capacity and just as quiet as the original drive?"

Which brings up the question. For those who purchase their 750g drives elsewhere and buy the upgrade kit, their drives are likely to be louder, right?

10-31-2006, 02:48 AM

For those who purchase their 750g drives elsewhere and buy the upgrade kit, their drives are likely to be louder, right?

I don't understand your question. What upgrade kit?

JimPa

10-31-2006, 03:13 AM

10-31-2006, 03:26 AM

Instancake is just the TiVo software image -- nothing that you cannot do yourself with mfstools. That doesn't do anything about the seek noise.

tivoupgrade

10-31-2006, 11:32 AM

c3

These people also have an S3 version. http://www.ptvupgrade.com/products/instantcake/

My point is if you were to buy the 750g HD elsewhere for $300ish and buy the instantcake for $19.99, you'd still have a noisy hard drive. Its only with the weaknees approach for $600ish that you'd have a quieter HD.

Well, like I said before, I haven't heard any complaints about noisy kits or upgraded units that we've provided. Whatever the other guys are doing may make an incremental improvement, even one that is noticable, but I think that the issue is being blown out of proportion.

davidwsica

10-31-2006, 03:30 PM

...but I think that the issue is being blown out of proportion.

I have a 750GB drive that I purchased from outpost.com and put into my S3 and I have to say the issue is not blown out of proportion. It is A LOT louder than the stock drive. I have the S3 in my bedroom and it is completely noticeable while watching a show and is almost loud enough to affect sleeping with it in the same room.

David

btwyx

10-31-2006, 05:01 PM

I think that the issue is being blown out of proportion.There seem to be 2 populations out there, and I'm not sure if its drives or users. There are noisy drives and/or sensitive users and quiet drives and/or insensitive users. Something doesn't add up about the reports I've been seeing.

The drive I had was the noisiest seeking drive I've ever heard, and I've heard quite a few. It was a problem. There are people who say its whisper quiet. I have difficulty in beleiving we're talking about the same hardware. Mine's now whisper quiet atfer its been quietened, its no longer a problem.

10-31-2006, 05:06 PM

Or people who just don't know any better. They may think larger drive means noisier drive, so they don't complain. There is absolutely no way I would use that 750GB drive, even for $100.

scottb4u

10-31-2006, 07:33 PM

khill821

10-31-2006, 07:37 PM

Don't you mean "expand your capacity and just as quiet as the original drive?"

Which brings up the question. For those who purchase their 750g drives elsewhere and buy the upgrade kit, their drives are likely to be louder, right?

No. I meant it is quiter than the original drive. The original drive does not have any audible seek noise, but the drive spin was noisier than the weaknees drive. Now that my weaknees drive has been "upgraded" all aspects of its operation are quiter than the original S3 configuration.

10-31-2006, 08:05 PM

I took my "noisy" 750g drive and placed it into a Vantec e.sata enclosure and connected it to a SFA 8300.

It is not nearly as loud. It is actually quiet! In the tivo it made a bloody racket!

It must be how the tivo caches and files data that makes this particular drive (with multiple platters in a perpendicular array) so noisy.

My guess is that the firmware changes the way the data is written for the new "quiet" 750's.

How is it really used with the SFA 8300? If it's just reading or writing one sequential stream, you're not going to have much random seek activity which generates the noise. In TiVo, you have at least two streams writing and one stream reading, not counting other activities.

The Weaknees/DB35 firmware slows seek down (which reduces performance) to reduce the noise.

10-31-2006, 08:11 PM

No. I meant it is quiter than the original drive. The original drive does not have any audible seek noise, but the drive spin was noisier than the weaknees drive. Now that my weaknees drive has been "upgraded" all aspects of its operation are quiter than the original S3 configuration.

Seagate is known for very low rotational noise. That's why they keep advertising having the "world's quietest drives". If you don't use it, it's quiet. :rolleyes:

DCIFRTHS

11-01-2006, 01:36 AM

Seagate is known for very low rotational noise. That's why they keep advertising having the "world's quietest drives". If you don't use it, it's quiet. :rolleyes:

It all depends on the person who is listening to the drive. I personally hate drives that whine. I'll take the seek noise over a whine any day.

11-01-2006, 03:11 AM

It all depends on the person who is listening to the drive. I personally hate drives that whine. I'll take the seek noise over a whine any day.

A whining drive means that the ball bearings are worn out. That's not an issue with current drives with FDB motors, although I don't know what would happen with very old FDB motors.

DCIFRTHS

11-01-2006, 03:38 AM

A whining drive means that the ball bearings are worn out.

It doesn't have to mean that. I have had brand new drives that have whined right out of the box. I have had many Western Digital drives that whined, and the older model Seagate 10,000 RPM drives.

That's not an issue with current drives with FDB motors, although I don't know what would happen with very old FDB motors.

I agree with this statement. It seems that the current generation of FDB drives are not as whiny.

Bierboy

11-02-2006, 05:03 PM

... I have had brand new drives that have whined right out of the box. I have had many Western Digital drives that whined...I agree. I replaced a hard drive in an older Mac with a WD drive and it whined like a spoiled brat.

OrangeKid

11-02-2006, 11:04 PM

My S3 which I purchased from PTVupgrade with a 750GB drive clearly has seek noise that I can hear across the room when there is no volume on the HT. There is no whine however. It is certainly louder than my S2.

snarkoplepsy

11-07-2006, 11:31 AM

Previosly I wrote:

I have a weaknees expanded S3, and I find it annoyingly loud.

I would consider waiting until they switch to quieter drives.

Since then, I shipped my S3 back to Weaknees for their secret sauce update. I just got the S3 back yesterday.

Wow! What a difference! Quiet as a mouse now.

And, their turn-around time was very fast. They only had it in their shop one day.

So I want to give them a public "attaboy!". Thank you, Weaknees.

RandyDtg

12-12-2006, 08:24 PM

Is DVRupgrade doing anything to make their drives quieter?

tivoupgrade

12-12-2006, 09:10 PM

Is DVRupgrade doing anything to make their drives quieter?

Right now, the answer to that question is "no." I have personally spoken to Seagate about the issue and unfortunately, they are not taking our requests for a way to make the drives quieter seriously.

With that said, we will be offering the DB35 750GB drives as our allocation will be available at the end of this year. We are already offering DB35 drives (PATA flavored) in some of our other kits.

Beyond that, there is not much we can do; whatever Weaknees is doing, they are keeping it to themselves and using it to their advantage, right now.

12-12-2006, 09:15 PM

whatever Weaknees is doing, they are keeping it to themselves and using it to their advantage, right now.

as they should

btwyx

12-12-2006, 09:19 PM

as they shouldEspecially with an NDA in place.

tivoupgrade

12-12-2006, 09:37 PM

I'm not really commenting on what they should or shouldn't be doing; only on what they are actually doing.

Regardless, the point will be completely moot as it relates to what we are doing, in that we'll have our first shipment of DB35 drives next week. We have a few drives, but they are priced too high to offer them in kits/units right now.

RandyDtg

12-14-2006, 11:20 AM

I must take back my earlier comments, the noise from my 750 gig S3 is a problem, and my family is very upset with the noise. The seek sounds can be heard during TV shows, and are very annoying. When all is quiet, you can hear the hard drive seek sounds from all of our bedrooms. So far TiVo Community store is saying lound is not a defect. My S3 is on a shelf under my TV. I do not want to, but I am looking into building a plexiglass enclosure, but am not sure that will work because I still need access to the cables. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

generaltso

12-14-2006, 11:27 AM

Can you return the box and get one with a stock drive? At least then you can do the upgrade yourself and use a DB35.

RandyDtg

12-14-2006, 11:45 AM

So far DVRupgrade is saying loud is not a defect. I hope they come around, and can fix my problem by quieting the drive. They have not yet replied to my last request.

generaltso

12-14-2006, 11:48 AM

I would agree that it's not a defect. It's just the nature of the drive that's in there. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be returned. It really depends on their return policy.

Bierboy

12-14-2006, 11:52 AM

So far DVRupgrade is saying loud is not a defect.....That's a huge, heaping, steaming load of bull. If they sell the drive as a DVR drive, and the seek noise interferes with one's ability to watch what it records, how is that NOT a defect?

generaltso

12-14-2006, 12:08 PM

It's not a defect because there's nothing wrong with the drive. That's just how loud that particular drive model is. That being said, there should definitely be a disclaimer (if there isn't already) on sites selling this drive for use in DVRs indicating that the upgrade drive is louder than stock drives.

btwyx

12-14-2006, 12:14 PM

It's not a defect because there's nothing wrong with the drive.True, but it does make the drive not fit for the purpose for which it was sold.

generaltso

12-14-2006, 12:32 PM

Until recently, that was the only 750GB drive available. Although the DB35 drives are now available, they are still more expensive than the non-DB35 version. Pesonally, I think the non-DB35 is too loud for use in a DVR, but not everyone agrees. Some people might be willing to spend less for a drive that's the same size but not as quiet. That's why I think a disclaimer needs to make it clear to customers that this particular drive is not as quiet as the stock drive. Hopefully, the trade off would be that the louder drive is cheaper.

btwyx

12-14-2006, 01:23 PM

I think the non-DB35 is too loud for use in a DVR,It is, but its fine once Weeknees does there thing and quiets the drive.

generaltso

12-14-2006, 01:42 PM

But that's only an option if you bought the drive from Weaknees.

btwyx

12-14-2006, 01:48 PM

But that's only an option if you bought the drive from Weaknees.Given the title of this thread, I thought that was a given.

generaltso

12-14-2006, 02:23 PM

RandyDtg stated that he bought his unit from the TiVo Community Store. That's why I recommended returning the unit since the Weaknees "secret sauce" is not an option.

btwyx

12-14-2006, 02:37 PM

RandyDtg stated that he bought his unit from the TiVo Community Store. That's why I recommended returning the unit since the Weaknees "secret sauce" is not an option.I thought it was described as bought from the TCF store, but sourced from Weeknees.

tivoupgrade

12-14-2006, 03:18 PM

So far DVRupgrade is saying loud is not a defect.

Actually, I never said that, and I don't appreciate the misrepresentation. Here is what I said:

Randy -

We can certainly check it out to ensure that the drive is not defective, and of course, if it is, we can replace it with a new one. Beyond that, it may just be a function of the Seagate drive - some people notice the 'signature' of the drive and some do not. My guess is that it is a function of the drive, itself, and not that it is defective.

I would not recommend you attempting to service the unit yourself - we can't honor your warranty if you do.

Lou

And I did get a response (which I will not make public) to which I DID respond with the following:

Randy -

Well, if its that loud, then it may very well be a defective hard drive; it just shouldn't be that loud and we are happy to take a look and see if that is the problem.

As for what can be done aside from that, there are some new drives that have come out from Seagate that we should have in stock before the end of the year. When we have them available, we will begin selling them as they are priced pretty much the same as the Seagate drives we are currently using.

Weaknees is not doing anything magical (they never have, and they never will) they simply got access to these drives a bit sooner than others).

As for my help, there is really nothing magical that I can do either, again - we can test the unit to ensure that the drive is OK, and replace it if it isn't.

What more would you expect that we do at this point?

Thx

I did not receive any response from you on this issue.

I am happy to take this discussion off-line as I do believe it to be completely off-topic. But I will ask that if folks are looking to "pile-on" here, that you please get your facts straight; ALL of them.

This is one customer who had a complaint and we did respond and offer to look into it with him. I don't think its appropriate to take this thread in the direction it is going...

Thx,
Lou

12-14-2006, 03:33 PM

Well, if its that loud, then it may very well be a defective hard drive; it just shouldn't be that loud and we are happy to take a look and see if that is the problem.

It's not defective. It's just loud. I don't think "it just shouldn't be that loud" is an accurate statement.

Weaknees is not doing anything magical (they never have, and they never will) they simply got access to these drives a bit sooner than others).

Weaknees did have access to the Seagate utility/firmware to make the non-DB35 drive quieter, before the real DB35 drive became available.

tivoupgrade

12-14-2006, 03:38 PM

It's not defective. It's just loud. I don't think "it just shouldn't be that loud" is an accurate statement.

I have to disagree with your assessment of whether what I said is accurate or not. It was a subjective comment based upon what was described to me and what I know to be true.

Once again, I ommitted what the Randy included in his email to me, in the interest of his privacey. From his description it sounded MUCH louder than would be considered normal for even this drive. And once again, happy to work with the customer, take a look and make an appropriate recommendation.

samo

12-14-2006, 04:06 PM

whatever Weaknees is doing, they are keeping it to themselves and using it to their advantage, right now.
As they should. If they are smarter and are willing to provide better customer satisfaction than you are, then they should be at advantage. Personally, I never done business with you or Weeknees, but based on your comments in another complaint thread and your comments in this thread I would definitely do business with Weeknees. At least they admit that there is the problem AND fix it for their clients. If you don't know how to fix it AND not willing to lose money to make your customers happy, then you should be out of business of charging people for upgrades.

tivoupgrade

12-14-2006, 04:22 PM

As they should. If they are smarter and are willing to provide better customer satisfaction than you are, then they should be at advantage. Personally, I never done business with you or Weeknees, but based on your comments in another complaint thread and your comments in this thread I would definitely do business with Weeknees. At least they admit that there is the problem AND fix it for their clients. If you don't know how to fix it AND not willing to lose money to make your customers happy, then you should be out of business of charging people for upgrades.

Samo -

Please go back and reread what I wrote because you are misinterpreting almost everything that I said. I never said there wasn't a problem, and I never said we weren't attempting to do anything about it.

What I did say was that we responded to the customer and we are willing to look into his particular situation.

I also responded to the original question of what we were doing with an honest and straightforward answer. Right now nothing. There is nothing we can do about it until we have our shipment of DB35 drives.

I also stated what has already been stated as a fact; our competitor has an advantage right now. Guess what? It happens; we have other advantages and we are always trading advantages here and there. That is the nature of the game.

Why you are taking such a hostile stance really doesn't make sense to me. We have always been service-oriented and have done our best to keep our customers happy.

RandyDtg

12-19-2006, 08:25 PM

I am very sad.

DCIFRTHS

12-20-2006, 02:02 AM

I am very sad.

If this were me, I would ask DVRupgrade to swap the drive for the newer DB35 drive - when they get them in stock.

Is there a money back guarantee on the product you purchased? If so, then return the product. If there is a restocking fee, then it might be worth it to eat the cost if you are not happy.

Personally. I never purchase from a retailer that doesn't offer a money back guarantee.