Top Ten things I miss from the Mot 6412

[SeanTivo]

Someone had to do this. It might as well be me.

10. A display clock I can actually see from my seat. For a component designed for the big screen tv/home theater customer, that display is weak. How close do you have to sit to actually be able to read what's being recorded?

9. Longer than 30 minute live TV buffer for non-hd channels. I forget how long it was for the 6412 but i think it was more than an hour.

8. The Guide - Picture in Picture is great. You can scroll through other channels and actually watch the current channel at the same time. The Tivo guide makes a mess of the screen.

7. The Guide2 - Quick access to the HD Channel section of the guide. Very useful. I always want to start with the HD channles if I'm scanning for something else to watch. A few clicks on the remote and you get the HD channels displayed.

6. The guide3/remote - A +24 hours button that flips the guide forward by 1 day.
2 clicks of the remote and I'm scanning tomorrow nights schedule.

5. The Remote - (Note, I acknowledge that critcizing the Tivo remote could get me banned from tivocommunity for life but here goes) The All on/All off button. Tivo lets you assign your TV on/off function to their remote but what about the stereo?
You can assign the Stereo volume + mute to the Tivo remote but you still need to use the stereo remote to turn it on + off. I'm hoping that I just missed how to assign the on/off of the stereo to the Tivo remote and that Tivo was not that stupid to ommit it. I wait to be corrected. The 6412 remote has 1 button that turns
on/off the TV, the DVR, and the Stereo.

4. Remote2 - Assign the 30 second skip to the remote AND any key on the remote. The 6412 lets you assign any key to the 30 second skip ( I picked the one right beside the "back up 15 seconds" key AND it's assigned to the remote not the box. That way you don't need to reprogram it when the box reboots. I used the 6412 for about 3 years and only programmed the remote for 30 second skip once.

3. Vod - It's a pretty nice feature.

2. PPV - Another nice feature.

1. .... A FRIGGIN DISK SPACE USED INDICATOR!!!!! Christ. I've heard some lameass arguments against this that just boggle my mind. IT"S USEFULL!!!!!
HOW TOUGH COULD IT BE TO IMPLEMENT? YOU DOLTS THAT DON'T LIKE IT DON'T
HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!!!!!!

Geeze. Saying that the percent used indicator is not usefull because the recordings use varying amounts of space is as stupid as saying that it's no use ever being able to accesss how much money you have left in your checking account because you'll be writing checks for different amounts.

It's such a simple and common sense feature that there must be some bigger reason that Tivo has ignored these requests. My guess is that Tivo does not want us to know how much disk space they are using for present and future "enhancements" like showcases and ad software. If we had a disk space used indicator we could figure that out.

All in all I'm happy with my Tivo but that doesn't mean it's perfect or that the 6412
was without value.

[andyf]

#5 - After programming the TV power etc. codes go and do the TV Power thing again but enter the code for the stereo. It will then turn both on and off.

[SeanTivo]

#5 - After programming the TV power etc. codes go and do the TV Power thing again but enter the code for the stereo. It will then turn both on and off.

Hey, thanks. I'll try that.

[Ken7]

Sean, I agree with almost all of your points. I'm coming from a Motorola FIOS box and there are indeed many points you brought up that are true to that box too. That instant day forward/back button on the Motorola is great. It takes too many clicks on the S3 to accomplish the same thing. But I think you will be attacked in short order. ;)

Additionally, I'm concerned about the audio droputs. If that's an issue, I may well return it and keep my Motorola box.

[Gregor]

11. I will really miss the way the 6412 loses the program and channel guide everytime the power blips.

[Woodstock2]

Good thread. I wish there was a way to make the "guide" more time->channel, rather than channel->time. I use the guide to find something to watch at a particular time (now), not for what's on a particular channel sometime tonight. Maybe that's just me.

[yunlin12]

Someone had to do this. It might as well be me.

10. A display clock I can actually see from my seat. For a component designed for the big screen tv/home theater customer, that display is weak. How close do you have to sit to actually be able to read what's being recorded?

4. Remote2 - Assign the 30 second skip to the remote AND any key on the remote. The 6412 lets you assign any key to the 30 second skip ( I picked the one right beside the "back up 15 seconds" key AND it's assigned to the remote not the box. That way you don't need to reprogram it when the box reboots. I used the 6412 for about 3 years and only programmed the remote for 30 second skip once.

1. .... A FRIGGIN DISK SPACE USED INDICATOR!!!!! Christ. I've heard some lameass arguments against this that just boggle my mind. IT"S USEFULL!!!!!
HOW TOUGH COULD IT BE TO IMPLEMENT? YOU DOLTS THAT DON'T LIKE IT DON'T
HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!!!!!!


I'm sure we all have different usage patterns, for instance if the clock on the Motorola is important to you, then be it. Although I think a 7 segment LCD clock display is pretty far behind the curve, but the small font on the S3 ain't getting thumbs up either, if it were configurable, now that would be cool.

Regarding number 4. I've used a DTivo for 3 years, besides software upgrades, and the need to do a HDD upgrade, I've restarted the thing less than a handful of time, averaging out to be once per 6 months. I've had the Motorola box 4 months, and it's locked up at least 2-3 times, not being able to tune any channels at all, and slowed down an additional few times, all requiring me to restart it.

I always peak at how many shows in my suggestion folder to see how much space I have left. It's not as exact as a % sign, but for some people, it's easier to compare # of shows, than to translate a % HDD to hours of recording. And honestly, would you rather have the 120GB Motorola box, I wouldn't.

Edit: Oh yeah, I miss the mysterious show that Motorola box recorded from year 1989 that you can't delete without restarting it. Another reason to enjoy the fact the one doesn't have to reprogram the 30sec skip after restarting, ain't it?

Edit2: Please fon't take anything personally, I just had it with my Motorola box. I did like the skip by day feature in the guide. I hated it when they put the banner ads on the last row of the quick guide so you can't see that channel. Then when you page up or down, it skips a page completely so you won't see it on the next page (Tivo keeps the last row when skipping a page, so you always know where you are).

[snathanb]

I wish my TV would remember what input I left it on when powering it off so I could effectively use the S3 remote, or barring that even had support for directly setting an input... but NOOOOOOOO.

I have to turn the TV on, wait 5 seconds for it to take commands, switch through every input until I get to the component one, all while waiting 1 second between each input switch.

Good thing for the fricken' Harmony remote taking care of all that.

[Dan203]

Good thread. I wish there was a way to make the "guide" more time->channel, rather than channel->time. I use the guide to find something to watch at a particular time (now), not for what's on a particular channel sometime tonight. Maybe that's just me.

Actually TiVo has a grid style guide. All you have to do to turn it on is open the guide, press enter, then change the option to the grid style.

Dan

[Stormspace]

Someone had to do this. It might as well be me.

I have an S2 but I think my answers apply.


10. A display clock I can actually see from my seat. For a component designed for the big screen tv/home theater customer, that display is weak. How close do you have to sit to actually be able to read what's being recorded?

Unlike radiation emitting CRT's HDTV's are meant to be viewed from much closer. 2-3x the screen size as I recall. Maybe that's your answer, sit closer. :)


6. The guide3/remote - A +24 hours button that flips the guide forward by 1 day.
2 clicks of the remote and I'm scanning tomorrow nights schedule.

If you use the channel down button you can jump 12 hours at a time through the guide on any given station.


5. The Remote - (Note, I acknowledge that critcizing the Tivo remote could get me banned from tivocommunity for life but here goes) The All on/All off button. Tivo lets you assign your TV on/off function to their remote but what about the stereo?
You can assign the Stereo volume + mute to the Tivo remote but you still need to use the stereo remote to turn it on + off. I'm hoping that I just missed how to assign the on/off of the stereo to the Tivo remote and that Tivo was not that stupid to ommit it. I wait to be corrected. The 6412 remote has 1 button that turns
on/off the TV, the DVR, and the Stereo.

4. Remote2 - Assign the 30 second skip to the remote AND any key on the remote. The 6412 lets you assign any key to the 30 second skip ( I picked the one right beside the "back up 15 seconds" key AND it's assigned to the remote not the box. That way you don't need to reprogram it when the box reboots. I used the 6412 for about 3 years and only programmed the remote for 30 second skip once.
Plenty of TiVo users buy inexpensive Harmony remotes that really kick the doors off of all the vendors remotes.


3. Vod - It's a pretty nice feature.

2. PPV - Another nice feature.

1. .... A FRIGGIN DISK SPACE USED INDICATOR!!!!! Christ. I've heard some lameass arguments against this that just boggle my mind. IT"S USEFULL!!!!!
HOW TOUGH COULD IT BE TO IMPLEMENT? YOU DOLTS THAT DON'T LIKE IT DON'T
HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!!!!!!


Meh.

It's such a simple and common sense feature that there must be some bigger reason that Tivo has ignored these requests. My guess is that Tivo does not want us to know how much disk space they are using for present and future "enhancements" like showcases and ad software. If we had a disk space used indicator we could figure that out.

Well, when you put it that way. :) Actually once you've been using TiVo a while with suggestions turned on it's very easy to tell how much space is available. Also if a show is scheduled to delete early because you are low on space, it'll tell you when you schedule a recording. So and so will be deleted early on such and such date to make room for X show. Generally when I see these I start finding things to delete or I whip out my pocketbook and buy a bigger harddrive. Can't do that with a moto. ;)

[Woodstock2]

Actually TiVo has a grid style guide. All you have to do to turn it on is open the guide, press enter, then change the option to the grid style.

Dan
<duh> slaps head. :cool:

Oh, yea, +1 on the disk-space-used. I also have to believe there's some reason that tivo doesn't (like overhead on the disk).

[SeanTivo]

Edit2: Please fon't take anything personally, I just had it with my Motorola box.

Hey, no problem.

We could all start a much longer thread on the problems with the 6412 but that's
not what I posted about.

I like my Tivo but there are some features of the 6412 I liked better.

For all it's problems tho, the 6412 worked adequately for me. Especially for the $9.99 per month price.

I'm keeping my Tivo though.

[moyekj]

Good post SeanTivo - you left out one of the most important though:
Firewire extraction of unprotected shows
Does not look very likely at this point S3 will ever have show extraction capability.

[wackymann]

Someone had to do this. It might as well be me.

10. A display clock I can actually see from my seat. For a component designed for the big screen tv/home theater customer, that display is weak. How close do you have to sit to actually be able to read what's being recorded?


I agree - the big red time display on the Motorola boxes was very handy.


9. Longer than 30 minute live TV buffer for non-hd channels. I forget how long it was for the 6412 but i think it was more than an hour.
[/QUOTE}

I agree here also - they may as well use a fixed buffer size. But this was a feature I rarely used for more than 30 minutes, so it's pretty much a non-issue for me.

[QUOTE=SeanTivo]
8. The Guide - Picture in Picture is great. You can scroll through other channels and actually watch the current channel at the same time. The Tivo guide makes a mess of the screen.


I find it to be most useful when the kids are watching something and I need to check to make sure something else is recording. I don't pause the show and hear them freak out LOL


7. The Guide2 - Quick access to the HD Channel section of the guide. Very useful. I always want to start with the HD channles if I'm scanning for something else to watch. A few clicks on the remote and you get the HD channels displayed.


Never used this


6. The guide3/remote - A +24 hours button that flips the guide forward by 1 day.
2 clicks of the remote and I'm scanning tomorrow nights schedule.


I'm simply amazed that this has not been implemented on the Tivo. It's a VERY useful and seemingly basic feature. I can't imagine any menu/guide designer not including this in the very first version of their code.


5. The Remote - (Note, I acknowledge that critcizing the Tivo remote could get me banned from tivocommunity for life but here goes) The All on/All off button. Tivo lets you assign your TV on/off function to their remote but what about the stereo?
You can assign the Stereo volume + mute to the Tivo remote but you still need to use the stereo remote to turn it on + off. I'm hoping that I just missed how to assign the on/off of the stereo to the Tivo remote and that Tivo was not that stupid to ommit it. I wait to be corrected. The 6412 remote has 1 button that turns
on/off the TV, the DVR, and the Stereo.


Not a button I use...


4. Remote2 - Assign the 30 second skip to the remote AND any key on the remote. The 6412 lets you assign any key to the 30 second skip ( I picked the one right beside the "back up 15 seconds" key AND it's assigned to the remote not the box. That way you don't need to reprogram it when the box reboots. I used the 6412 for about 3 years and only programmed the remote for 30 second skip once.


Yep this seems like a very tedious and annoying activity (constantly re-applying the 30-second skip).


3. Vod - It's a pretty nice feature.

2. PPV - Another nice feature.


Don't use them very much at all, but I agree they are nice to have once in a blue moon.


1. .... A FRIGGIN DISK SPACE USED INDICATOR!!!!! Christ. I've heard some lameass arguments against this that just boggle my mind. IT"S USEFULL!!!!!
HOW TOUGH COULD IT BE TO IMPLEMENT? YOU DOLTS THAT DON'T LIKE IT DON'T
HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!!!!!!

Geeze. Saying that the percent used indicator is not usefull because the recordings use varying amounts of space is as stupid as saying that it's no use ever being able to accesss how much money you have left in your checking account because you'll be writing checks for different amounts.

It's such a simple and common sense feature that there must be some bigger reason that Tivo has ignored these requests. My guess is that Tivo does not want us to know how much disk space they are using for present and future "enhancements" like showcases and ad software. If we had a disk space used indicator we could figure that out.

All in all I'm happy with my Tivo but that doesn't mean it's perfect or that the 6412
was without value.

It's more of an issue with a 120 GB drive than it is with a 250GB drive, but as long as you set the delete priorities properly, I'm guessing it's not all that critical. I am keeping my 3412 around for at least a month to make sure the transition is a clean one. And if for some reason I decide that there is something on the 3412 I can't live without, I'll just keep it. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt I'll really miss the $15/month it would cost me to keep it.

[Dan203]

Maybe I have X-Ray vision..or something, but I have no problem reading the front of my Series3. Of course I am not sitting 30 feet away, but I am not 5 feet away from it either.

No problem here either.

As far as the picture in picture, I LOVE the fact that TiVo doesn't show you the current channel. Why? When I had a MOXI, more than once I would turn on the TV hit the "MOXI" buttong and still be able to see the channel, and sure enough almost everytime, something would get ruined. The fact that I can hit the TiVo button, turn on the TV and not have anything ruined for me is just great.

I absolutely HATE that about the Moxi! I'm so glad to not have to worry about it anymore.

Dan

[SeanTivo]

Unlike radiation emitting CRT's HDTV's are meant to be viewed from much closer. 2-3x the screen size as I recall. Maybe that's your answer, sit closer. :)


If you use the channel down button you can jump 12 hours at a time through the guide on any given station.




Maybe we can start a Tivo Eye Test thread. We can all post about how far away from the TV/Tivo you can sit and still read what's being recorded. I have perfect vision and I think anything beyond 10 feet is impossible without squinting. I'll check when I get home though.

Yes, you can jump 12 hours at a time for a single channel but that's different from
scanning tomorrow nights schedule (of all channels) with one click of the remote.

[Innerloop]

I also came from a Motorola box, I would differ with you on a few points:

10) I like the Tivo time display better. Size isn't everything, the cool factor of the Dot Matrix totally outweighs the size issue for me. The Motorola one looks very low-tech and clunky now. Don't miss it a bit.

8) I like PiP, but I much prefer seeing more guide data at once. I like the fact that the Tivo has more vertical display lines of guide data (in grid mode) so I would not trade that back for Pip. I mostly just listen to the audio anyway when tuning, not looking at the video PiP on the Motorola box. This is a smart move by Tivo

7) I don't mind this since all the HD channels are grouped together anyway in the 700s, having a filter seems unnecessary and I never used it on Motorola box.

6) Yes and no. The Tivo FF/REW to move screen at a time is so fast that I find its actually easily to move forward a day with the Tivo. I thought I'd miss this, but I prefer the way the Tivo works. If it were more sluggish or buffered commands, then I would opt the other way.

5) There is a way to map this, read the forums, the info is out there.

The rest I agree with. I kept a Motorola box around also for VOD and PPV, but a non-DVR model.

I also miss the way the Motorola indicates on the guide display when a program is set to record, that's very hip and Tivo should steal that one ASAP. The disc space indicator is also nice. But if they add it, it should exclude space used by Suggestions entirely and just show space used by my recordings. Its not that hard to do guys!

[snathanb]

8. The Guide - Picture in Picture is great. You can scroll through other channels and actually watch the current channel at the same time. The Tivo guide makes a mess of the screen.


Picture-in-Guide was important to me on non-dvrs... but hey, I just hit pause when going to guide now. ;)

[TexasAg]

I miss the fact that the Motorola box would constantly list shows in its "Scheduled Recordings" and then not record them. That Tivo, actually recording everything it says it's going to. How boring.

[Stormspace]

Maybe we can start a Tivo Eye Test thread. We can all post about how far away from the TV/Tivo you can sit and still read what's being recorded. I have perfect vision and I think anything beyond 10 feet is impossible without squinting. I'll check when I get home though.

Yes, you can jump 12 hours at a time for a single channel but that's different from
scanning tomorrow nights schedule (of all channels) with one click of the remote.

TiVo eye test. That's hilarious! :D

Also, while I don't use it, have you tried the grid guide to see if it will jump in 12 hour increments? Two clicks and bam tommorow night!

Generally if I want to view all shows for the next night I go into the find programs menu and search by time. Yeah, it takes a couple more clicks, but since my TiVo is almost always recording I don't like seeing the live show behind the guide anyway.

[SeanTivo]

10) I like the Tivo time display better. Size isn't everything, the cool factor of the Dot Matrix totally outweighs the size issue for me. The Motorola one looks very low-tech and clunky now. Don't miss it a bit.



I was not aware of how "cool" the Tivo display was. Since I installed the box, I haven't been close enough to actually read it.

In this case, size does matter.

[cuyahoga]

Someone had to do this. It might as well be me.

10. A display clock I can actually see from my seat.

8. The Guide - Picture in Picture is great.

7. The Guide2 - Quick access to the HD Channel section of the guide.


1. .... A FRIGGIN DISK SPACE USED INDICATOR!!!!!

I'm with you on a bunch of your points. I'll just have to unlearn all of the Motorola 6412 stuff like I previously had to unlearn TiVo interface features and quirks when I went from Series 2 to 6412.

[RoanokeHokie]

I liked that Passport Echo would allow a 'series recording' to be for a specific channel or for all channels. Now that some NBC shows have same-week repeats on Bravo (Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip) or CNBC (Deal or No Deal), multi-channel Season Passes would be interesting; I hated them on the 6412 simply because it didn't eliminate recently recorded episodes from its scheduled recordings.

[Stormspace]

I liked that Passport Echo would allow a 'series recording' to be for a specific channel or for all channels. Now that some NBC shows have same-week repeats on Bravo (Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip) or CNBC (Deal or No Deal), multi-channel Season Passes would be interesting; I hated them on the 6412 simply because it didn't eliminate recently recorded episodes from its scheduled recordings.

A multichannel Season pass is called a Wishlist on the tivo.

[JPA2825]

My 6412 is having a real hard time distinguishing a "re-air" of a Pilot from the actual Pilot (even when it alreadh has the Pilot in it's very own hard drive). Other than that, it seems to figure out 1st runs OK.

Don't have a S3 yet, but am studying the angles as the end of 2006 approaches and I have an unused S1 w/ lifetime sitting in my attic.

[RoanokeHokie]

A multichannel Season pass is called a Wishlist on the tivo.I hadn't though about that before, but I think a Wishlist is not quite a multichannel Season Pass. The main reason is that a title wishlist for, say, "Whose Line Is It Anyway" will match both the US version (on ABC Family and, sometimes, ABC network) and the UK version (on BBC America), although they are two distinct series. (Although, come to think of it, I'm not 100% sure if Season Passes for these shows are distinct, either. Something for me to check!)

On the other hand, I would also hope for a TiVo implementation of the multichannel Season Pass to be a bit more powerful, such as allowing the selection of a set of stations but not ALL stations - something not even a Wishlist can do today, AFAIK.

[Gregor]

Good post SeanTivo - you left out one of the most important though:
Firewire extraction of unprotected shows
Does not look very likely at this point S3 will ever have show extraction capability.

It's version 1.0. How can you possibly make that assessment when the box has been on the street two weeks? :confused:

Sorry to see you write it off that quickly....

[Stormspace]

I hadn't though about that before, but I think a Wishlist is not quite a multichannel Season Pass. The main reason is that a title wishlist for, say, "Whose Line Is It Anyway" will match both the US version (on ABC Family and, sometimes, ABC network) and the UK version (on BBC America), although they are two distinct series. (Although, come to think of it, I'm not 100% sure if Season Passes for these shows are distinct, either. Something for me to check!)

On the other hand, I would also hope for a TiVo implementation of the multichannel Season Pass to be a bit more powerful, such as allowing the selection of a set of stations but not ALL stations - something not even a Wishlist can do today, AFAIK.

As long as you set it as a Title wishlist it will use the same 28 day rule that regular season passes use, so reruns of the same show won't be recorded.

For a couple of years I use a Title wishlist to record all three CSI's using one entry in the SP manager. Setting it to first run kept all the repeats on other channels from appearing and it worked fine.

[moyekj]

It's version 1.0. How can you possibly make that assessment when the box has been on the street two weeks? :confused:

Sorry to see you write it off that quickly.... Haven't written off the S3 entirely or even possibility of it one day getting TTG. However even the most faithful loyalists have expressed doubt that TTG will happen for digital channels due to CableLabs certification problems. Also the OP list is based on capabilities today of cable co. DVR vs. S3 - this is certainly one of the huge differences for me. I would be 1st in line for the S3 if TTG is every added, but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime looks like the Tivo/Cox DVR will be best option to me assuming TTG on S3 is not available by the time that is released - at least that solution I expect/assume firewire extraction to be still functional.

[Gregor]

Haven't written off the S3 entirely or even possibility of it one day getting TTG. However even the most faithful loyalists have expressed doubt that TTG will happen for digital channels due to CableLabs certification problems. Also the OP list is based on capabilities today of cable co. DVR vs. S3 - this is certainly one of the huge differences for me. I would be 1st in line for the S3 if TTG is every added, but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime looks like the Tivo/Cox DVR will be best option to me assuming TTG on S3 is not available by the time that is released - at least that solution I expect/assume firewire extraction to be still functional.

Is firewire supported now on the Cox DVR? If not what makes you think it will be supported in the future? Just curious....

[MickeS]

Most of those things are only useful if you use the TiVo as a VCR. I would never use a single one of them.

[MickeS]

Actually once you've been using TiVo a while with suggestions turned on it's very easy to tell how much space is available. Also if a show is scheduled to delete early because you are low on space, it'll tell you when you schedule a recording. So and so will be deleted early on such and such date to make room for X show. Generally when I see these I start finding things to delete or I whip out my pocketbook and buy a bigger harddrive. Can't do that with a moto. ;)

I've realized that those who want a FSI just want to wait until the last minute to make a decision about what to keep. If you don't do that, it's pointless.

[timdorr]

Is firewire supported now on the Cox DVR? If not what makes you think it will be supported in the future? Just curious....

I'm pretty sure the FCC mandates that the firewire port on every STB needs to be enabled. It's basically just an HDMI port, if you think about it. But without the security restrictions, of course.

[dt_dc]

Is firewire supported now on the Cox DVR?Yes ... pretty well in their Motorola markets. In their SciAtl markets it's a little more spotty ... you need newer firmware than they've deployed in most places (although you can often get them to provide you with an updated box if you're persistant), and the SciAtl Firewire implementation seems a little 'glitchier' than Motorola's.I'm pretty sure the FCC mandates that the firewire port on every STB needs to be enabled. It's basically just an HDMI port, if you think about it. But without the security restrictions, of course.Firewire is different from an HDMI output in that Firewire carries the compressed MPEG2 transport streams. HDMI is uncompressed (read - huge and expensive to capture).

Also, Firewire can be protected quite well via DTCP. For cable boxes that have Firewire output ... you'll find much of the content is DTCP protected and needs DCTP compliant equipment on the other end to handle it.

[timdorr]

Also, Firewire can be protected quite well via DTCP. For cable boxes that have Firewire output ... you'll find much of the content is DTCP protected and needs DCTP compliant equipment on the other end to handle it.

Well, I know my Motorola box isn't. I had it running with MythTV for a while (until I gave up on dealing with kernel recompiles and crap like that) and later with Windows Media Center. Definitely recorded some HD movies from HBO :D

[Innerloop]

I'm pretty sure the FCC mandates that the firewire port on every STB needs to be enabled. It's basically just an HDMI port, if you think about it. But without the security restrictions, of course.

Why would the FCC get involved in something like that? I've never heard of such a thing. What law are you talking about?

[dt_dc]

Why would the FCC get involved in something like that?It was part of the one-way plug-and-play agreement between CE companies and cable. CE companies wanted Firewire output (and a bunch of other stuff) from cable ... cable wanted a bunch of stuff from CE companies ... they agreed / negotiated ... and handed the FCC a bunch of regulations to pass for one-way CableCard support. The Firewire mandate was part of that ...I've never heard of such a thing. What law are you talking about?Technically, it's a regulation ... not a law ... but ...

47CFR76.640
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm(4) Cable operators shall:

(i) Effective April 1, 2004, upon request of a customer, replace any leased high definition set-top box, which does not include a functional IEEE 1394 interface, with one that includes a functional IEEE 1394 interface or upgrade the customer's set-top box by download or other means to ensure that the IEEE 1394 interface is functional.

(ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired by a cable operator for distribution to customers.

[moyekj]

Is firewire supported now on the Cox DVR? If not what makes you think it will be supported in the future? Just curious.... Yes, firewire extraction on digital Moto boxes even before the DVR boxes a couple of years ago have been working. I use it quite often to extract native HD mpeg2 transport streams for my favorite shows such as Lost. Note also that you can even change channels on the Moto box via the firewire interface. As stated above captures only work for non-5C protected shows but at least in my market all the HD locals do not have 5C protection enabled and that's 90% of what I watch. OTA HD reception while pretty good most of the time is not 100% reliable for me (being 70 miles away from the transmitters) so being able to record from the Cox re-transmissions is more reliable and a big plus.

It would have been really great if the S3 had a firewire port for interfacing with digital set top boxes (thus SDV problems could be circumvented) and also for capturing shows... but that's a subject for another day.

[HomieG]

Great info on programming the Comcast remote is here:
http://www.cjhengineering.com/hdtv/cablehdtv/dct6412remote.htm

Also, you can program what essentially is a macro to turn on and off both the TV and the audio/stereo system together. Works quite well.

In fact, the remote is quite programmable and very flexible in terms of operating the DVR/TV/Audio system.

I agree with the OP, there really are at least 10 things nice about the 6412 (3412) DVR. BTW, I have not had a single problem with the 3412 in almost 4 months of use. Has not missed a recording, and once I got used to the user interface, it wasn't so bad.

[dianebrat]

Things I miss most about my Motorola DVR box:

1) The fact that...... umm, no, don't miss it

2) When I press.... .. umm, no, don't miss that either

3) When it goes and....err, nope don't miss that.

4) The remote because... err, no don't miss that at ALL.

ok, I tried.. I got nuffin..

Diane

[HomieG]

Things I miss most about my Motorola DVR box:

1) The fact that...... umm, no, don't miss it

2) When I press.... .. umm, no, don't miss that either

3) When it goes and....err, nope don't miss that.

4) The remote because... err, no don't miss that at ALL.

ok, I tried.. I got nuffin..

Diane


Well now, that added a lot to this thread :rolleyes:

[dianebrat]

Well now, that added a lot to this thread :rolleyes:

Hey sometimes you just have to go with what ya got!

I was just putting forth my point that there's not one single thing I miss.. the moto no longer darkens the shrine to media..

:cool:

[jauburn]

I agree with original poster. Plus I think the moto box gives better picure qualty.

[MichaelK]

...



I find it to be most useful when the kids are watching something and I need to check to make sure something else is recording. I don't pause the show and hear them freak out LOL
....


much of these things are just getting used to how tivo set things up.

as an example with the above- there's an equivilently easy way to see what is recording on the tivo as looking at the guide with PIP on the moro.

Just hit right arrow to get the banner- (if your default is set to the small banner hit right again to get the big banner)- then press down and the Tivo will tell you what is happening on the other tuner. It will tell you exactly what the box is tuned to and if iut's recording the red circle icon will be lit.

[MichaelK]

I agree with original poster. Plus I think the moto box gives better picure qualty.

Not sure what's going on with your provider but I have an a 64xx from moto and the analog recordings are pathetic.

As far as digital if you use HDMI then they would be identical I would think- both are recording hte bit stream and then outputting a digital signal (unless perhaps the content needs to be rescaled and somehow the moto has a better scaler- you could try to set your tivo to native output and let your TV scale it)

[Gregor]

I agree with original poster. Plus I think the moto box gives better picure qualty.

Not in my case. Compared to the Tivo, the moto picture looks craptastic.

[moyekj]

I agree with original poster. Plus I think the moto box gives better picure qualty. This needs to be qualified a little more. Is it in general for all channels (analog, SD digital, HD)? Note that in markets with digital simulcast when you use the cable company set top box you are getting the digital version of the channel, but with CableCard it could be programmed to give you the analog version, and thus the Tivo picture quality will suffer because of analog source and Tivo re-encoding. Now if you are comparing the HD channels and the Moto is visibly better than the S3 that would surprise me especially if connecting to TV the same way. Even then some experimentation needs to be done with Tivo output settings to determine the best.

[mattack]

6. The guide3/remote - A +24 hours button that flips the guide forward by 1 day.
2 clicks of the remote and I'm scanning tomorrow nights schedule.


Umm, left arrow left arrow, up or down arrow to change the day, then right arrow twice back into the listings??

Ok, that's more than 2 presses, but it's intuitive once you're used to it.

(I presume the S3 *does* have the same guide available as the S1/S2, and not just the grid guide..)

[bschott]

I'll miss the fact that I wont have to trod into my local comcast office to trade my now dead 6412 in for another 6412 that will just die in a few months anyhow due to the high heat and lack of adaquate cooling.

Serioulsy, I've been through three of these crappy boxes in as many months now. Last one has been behaving, but the sound now cuts out every now and again.

I agree with SeanTivo's comments for the most part, but the biggest complaint I had about the 6412's were when you you would watch a show, then pause for a while and finally at some point you decide you want to record it only to find that it starts to record from the point in the show you are at, rather than including the buffer of show in the past queue.

This is lame if you want to start from the beginning again at some point. Tivo does this nicely.

[moyekj]

...but the biggest complaint I had about the 6412's were when you you would watch a show, then pause for a while and finally at some point you decide you want to record it only to find that it starts to record from the point in the show you are at, rather than including the buffer of show in the past queue.

This is lame if you want to start from the beginning again at some point. Tivo does this nicely. Not sure what software you had, probably Iguide. But my DCT6416 with Passport Echo buffers HD shows for a full hour on each tuner (much longer for SD programs) and if you decide to record something it will include everything in the buffer to the start of the program. You can go all the way back to the beginning of the buffer with skip-to-tick in 15 minute increments very fast. The biggest single limitation is the 160GB drive - if the Esata port actually did something useful there would be little reason for me to consider the S3.

[btwyx]

If you use the channel down button you can jump 12 hours at a time through the guide on any given station.How?

7. If TiVo hadn't made the dumbest ever descision, you'd be able to do this. They release an HD box with no way to filter by HD content. The HR10-250 already has this feature. You can apply it to wishlists (a critical feature as far as I'm concerned), or you can apply it as a filter to the guide.

6. I agree a +1 day button would be useful. You can do something similar by changing the guide options and bumping up the day, but its more awkard.

3. VOD doesn't look that interesting to me.

2. Lack of PPV is just lack of imagination on the cable co's part.

1. Yup.

[MickeS]

How?

7. If TiVo hadn't made the dumbest ever descision, you'd be able to do this. They release an HD box with no way to filter by HD content. The HR10-250 already has this feature. You can apply it to wishlists (a critical feature as far as I'm concerned), or you can apply it as a filter to the guide.


I don't understand this request. Why would you want to filter by HD content?

[btwyx]

I don't understand this request. Why would you want to filter by HD content?So I can record the HD version of the 49ers game. My HR10-250 has the wishlist:
Audio&Video/HDTV & 49ers

I have not found any reasonable way to do the same thing on an S3. The HDTV sigifier is in the guide, this is a freaking HD box, you should be able to speciffy HD only.

[infinitespecter]

The one thing that annoys me the most coming from a Sony HD DVR is the fact that whenever I go into a menu, I am taken out of my program. It cannot be that difficult to put a small video window in the corner of the screen. And likewise, when I am watching a recorded program, I should be able to view the guide without having to switch to live TV.

Oh, and I also think the fact that the wishlists can only display 200 hits is lame. On the Sony I could look at every movie up to a week in advance by scrolling down a category list as it dynamically loaded guide information, which made recording movies really easy. Now I can only get about 6 hours worth of guide listings. Lame.

[rickertk]

The one thing that annoys me the most coming from a Sony HD DVR is the fact that whenever I go into a menu, I am taken out of my program. It cannot be that difficult to put a small video window in the corner of the screen. And likewise, when I am watching a recorded program, I should be able to view the guide without having to switch to live TV.

Oh, and I also think the fact that the wishlists can only display 200 hits is lame. On the Sony I could look at every movie up to a week in advance by scrolling down a category list as it dynamically loaded guide information, which made recording movies really easy. Now I can only get about 6 hours worth of guide listings. Lame.

Mark me down as one of those who can live without PIP menus.
As for your second issue, if you want to look at every movie for a week (actually almost 2), just go to Find Programs>Search by Title>Movies (and then a subcategory if you want). That will alphabetically list every movie in the guide data. Wishlists are meant to be a little more targeted than that.

Keith

[bicker]

Interesting list. We have a beautiful grandfather clock about four feet to the left of our television, so #10's not an issue. #9 -- really? I've never needed more than a half-hour, so no big loss. #8 -- yes the picture-in-guide is neat, but my wife hates it. #7 -- Can't you just use your favorite channel configuration to accomplish most of that? Regardless, I've never used the quick access, so not going to lose much there. I typically already know what I want to record before I get to the guide anyway, having read about it elsewhere. #6 -- That is a big loss. Seems to me that TiVo should pick up on that. I know we can do it with a few clicks in the guide, but still -- doing it with a single button press is very neat. #5 -- Well you're just wrong about that. I've never used the All on/All off functionality because you're never supposed to turn the 3412 off! #4 -- I really miss the (regular) FF on the TiVo, with the skip-back. I would gladly give up 30 second skip for skip-back. #3 - I did watch a few old episodes of Soap once. Once. #2 -- I'd rather not even have the option. I'm paying for HBO and SHO; I can wait. #1 -- I don't care about spaced used -- I care about space available. I use TiVo suggestions to indicate space available.

[chain777]

I'll miss the fact that I wont have to trod into my local comcast office to trade my now dead 6412 in for another 6412>snip


11. The ability to exchange a defective/broken/obsolete unit for another free of charge.

I've had three different models from Comcast in the past year. The 3412 I have now has been reasonably trouble free, certainly better than the 6412 I box (missed recordings, locked up frequently), or the 6412 III box (noisy, but more stable).

While still not perfect, it *is* getting better. At least I can upgrade as needed for free. 800 bucks is too much in my book for a technology that's hasn't matured yet.

[btwyx]

when I am watching a recorded program, I should be able to view the guide without having to switch to live TV. I'll vote for that one as well. It shouldn't matter if I'm watching live, delayed or recorded. The guide should work the same, it doesn't.

[SeanTivo]

I also miss the way the Motorola indicates on the guide display when a program is set to record, that's very hip and Tivo should steal that one ASAP.

I missed that one but you are right. That's a definite feature of the Mot guide that
I'll miss.

All in all, I think the Tivo guide is pretty cheesy compared to the 6412. The motorola guide has a much better user interface.

(Will that last comment get me kicked off of Tivocommunity??)

[snathanb]

I'll vote for that one as well. It shouldn't matter if I'm watching live, delayed or recorded. The guide should work the same, it doesn't.

Hey, I like that idea, too. That would be really useful.

[SeanTivo]

#1 -- I don't care about spaced used -- I care about space available. I use TiVo suggestions to indicate space available.

Second grade arithmetic will get you to space available.

If you can learn that, it's much simpler than Tivo suggestions.

[SueAnn]

Things I miss most about my Motorola DVR box:

1) The fact that...... umm, no, don't miss it

2) When I press.... .. umm, no, don't miss that either

3) When it goes and....err, nope don't miss that.

4) The remote because... err, no don't miss that at ALL.

ok, I tried.. I got nuffin..

Diane


+1

[bicker]

Given two options, both equally accessible, why use anything other than the simpler approach?

[SeanTivo]

Given two options, both equally accessible, why use anything other than the simpler approach?

My point exactly.

I hate tivo suggestions and turned them off. Why record crap I don't want to watch?

Why bother with checking to check to see how much got recorded when it's much simpler to just glance at the disk space used indicator?

[Ken7]

Not sure what's going on with your provider but I have an a 64xx from moto and the analog recordings are pathetic.

As far as digital if you use HDMI then they would be identical I would think- both are recording hte bit stream and then outputting a digital signal (unless perhaps the content needs to be rescaled and somehow the moto has a better scaler- you could try to set your tivo to native output and let your TV scale it)

Well from my own personal experience that's not always true. I had the D* HD Tivo and other D* HD boxes all hooked up via HDMI. The Tivo always had the worst picture among my receivers and that was a pretty common complaint about that unit. But I undertand why it makes sense that all HDMI 'should' look the same....but it doesn't always.

[bicker]

I hate tivo suggestionsI love TiVo Suggestions. It's always nice to have something neat to watch, when there's nothing in Now Playing.

Why bother with checking to check to see how much got recorded when it's much simpler to just glance at the disk space used indicator?There is no disk space used indicator.

[SeanTivo]

There is no disk space used indicator.

See the first post in this thread, einstein.

[bicker]

See my replies in this thread, "stupidhead". :D

(Sorry, I'm just not as good at this name-calling stuff as you are. :D)

[SeanTivo]

See my replies in this thread, "stupidhead". :D

(Sorry, I'm just not as good at this name-calling stuff as you are. :D)


Your reading comprehension is worse as well.

[bicker]

No, yours is the worstest. :cool:

[dianebrat]

at leest u have good speeling :p

[RoanokeHokie]

But I undertand why it makes sense that all HDMI 'should' look the same....but it doesn't always.I agree - just because you can connect with HDMI doesn't mean all receivers will provide the same video quality.

The receivers still have to recover their digital source from an analog transmission medium, be it satellite, cable, or OTA. It's possible that some receivers will recover 'more' of the MPEG2 (or other) data stream than others, and any lost portion of the data stream is a video quality loss.

The MPEG2 decoder itself can impact video quality. Even with the entire source MPEG2 stream, an implementation bug in the decoder could degrade the video quality.

Video scalers can impact video quality. Many receivers include video scalers to all source material of any resolution to be provided at a fixed output resolution.

Yes, HDMI is HDMI is HDMI. But there are a lot of things that happen to your video before it gets to that HDMI port, and at each step in that process your video quality could be impacted.

Personally, I think the video quality on my S3 is a bit better than my DCT 6412 III's, however since I had both configured to output at 720p fixed I think it's just a statement about the video scalers in those units and nothing more.

[btwyx]

The MPEG2 decoder itself can impact video quality. Even with the entire source MPEG2 stream, an implementation bug in the decoder could degrade the video quality. A bug could impact video quality, but outside of that I was under the impression that all decoders were supposed to produce the same output for the same input. That's the MPEG model, a defined decoder, but the encoder is free to do what it wants.

[MickeS]

Why bother with checking to check to see how much got recorded when it's much simpler to just glance at the disk space used indicator?

"23 GB Free". Wow, that's useful. :rolleyes:

I too think it would be nice with some sort of indication on the guide when a show is already set to record. I don't use the guide much though.

[chain777]

"23 GB Free". Wow, that's useful. :rolleyes:

I too think it would be nice with some sort of indication on the guide when a show is already set to record. I don't use the guide much though.

How about "20% free? That's the idea.

[Stormspace]

How?

If you use the TiVo guide and not the grid guide, right arrow to the show list for that channel and then use channel up/down to page through the listings. I believe you can skip through about 12 hours of shows at a time this way.

[SeanTivo]

How about "20% free? That's the idea.

Yes, of course.

These nimrods who've never had another DVR besides Tivo are just talking out their asses when it comes to this. We've used DVR's with this feature and IT'S A USEFULL FEATURE!!

Of course if Tivo ever implemented it, they'd be slobbering all over Tivopony telling him how wonderful he is.

[SeanTivo]

If you use the TiVo guide and not the grid guide, right arrow to the show list for that channel and then use channel up/down to page through the listings. I believe you can skip through about 12 hours of shows at a time this way.


That does not accomplish what I posted about. That gets you the next days schedule for 1 channel only.

Hitting the +24 hours button flips the whole schedule forward a day which is much more usefull.

The more I use my S3 the more I realize how weak the Tivo guide is. It sucks.

[davezatz]

Maybe we can start a Tivo Eye Test thread. We can all post about how far away from the TV/Tivo you can sit and still read what's being recorded. I have perfect vision and I think anything beyond 10 feet is impossible without squinting. I'll check when I get home though.

Sitting on the couch, with the S3 close to the floor at about 8ish feet (maybe more when you consider the difference from eye level to S3) with my glasses I cannot read the shows being recorded on the display.

I would like PIP in the guide. Space remaining would be nice. I wouldn't mind if the S3 were also snappier.

[Stormspace]

That does not accomplish what I posted about. That gets you the next days schedule for 1 channel only.

Hitting the +24 hours button flips the whole schedule forward a day which is much more usefull.

The more I use my S3 the more I realize how weak the Tivo guide is. It sucks.

I think I said that. :)

[Stormspace]

You know I really wonder what TiVo's motives for not including a FSI are. I mean at the very least it shut some people up. :rolleyes:

It would also have to show the number of hours left for each quality setting. Of course it would be meaningless since shows scheduled in the future would eat up that free space, so it's not really a true indicator.

[MichaelK]

So I can record the HD version of the 49ers game. My HR10-250 has the wishlist:
Audio&Video/HDTV & 49ers

I have not found any reasonable way to do the same thing on an S3. The HDTV sigifier is in the guide, this is a freaking HD box, you should be able to speciffy HD only.


agreed this is a MAJOR ommision in my mind.

[MichaelK]

Second grade arithmetic will get you to space available.

If you can learn that, it's much simpler than Tivo suggestions.


Too my free space is no big deal, but i'm not sure your answer is realistic.

With a 250gb drive mixed will HD, SD digital content, and SD analog content encoded at potentiall different quality settings- how the hell do you do any type of quick math to figure out what is going on?

[MichaelK]

Well from my own personal experience that's not always true. I had the D* HD Tivo and other D* HD boxes all hooked up via HDMI. The Tivo always had the worst picture among my receivers and that was a pretty common complaint about that unit. But I undertand why it makes sense that all HDMI 'should' look the same....but it doesn't always.


wow- learn somethign new everyday.

I dont understand why that would be....

any guesses?

[MickeS]

How about "20% free? That's the idea.

Oh, yeah, that's way more useful. :D

And no, if they implemented this, I'd still say it's completely useless.

[MickeS]

Too my free space is no big deal, but i'm not sure your answer is realistic.

With a 250gb drive mixed will HD, SD digital content, and SD analog content encoded at potentiall different quality settings- how the hell do you do any type of quick math to figure out what is going on?

And then factor in that in order for it to be useful you still have to check what's going to be recorded between now and until you're done using that free space - in other words, you still have to do exactly the same as you do today. A FSI is useless for any other purpose than giving people a number that shows how much free space there is at any given time - it says NOTHING about how many shows you'll be able to record or which shows will be deleted.

[davezatz]

if they implemented this, I'd still say it's completely useless.

There are plenty of features I find useless that others value, and vice versa. I think a lot of folks would appreciate some sort of meter and those who don't could ignore it. Not a big deal in my mind.

[MickeS]

There are plenty of features I find useless that others value, and vice versa. I think a lot of folks would appreciate some sort of meter and those who don't could ignore it. Not a big deal in my mind.

No, I agree. I just think it's interesting how much this feature is requested, vs how useful it is. But TiVo should put it in so people would stop complaining...

[btwyx]

If you use the TiVo guide and not the grid guide, right arrow to the show list for that channel and then use channel up/down to page through the listings. I believe you can skip through about 12 hours of shows at a time this way.No, it skips through 7 programs. That's 3.5 hours if they're all half hour programs, or a week if each program is 24 hours (as some are on DirecTV.

This is not a workaround for the lack of a day skip button.

[btwyx]

About the free space indicator, coming from a DirecTV world I always imagined D* didn't want TiVo to impliment it. If they did you could work out exactly how pitiful a bit rate D* was sending you. Such damaging information is off limits to meer users.

[Stormspace]

No, it skips through 7 programs. That's 3.5 hours if they're all half hour programs, or a week if each program is 24 hours (as some are on DirecTV.

This is not a workaround for the lack of a day skip button.

Hmm. I couldn't remember the specifics, but it sounds right. However for me hitting the channel down button multiple times to get to tomorrow isn't a big deal as typically I'm looking at specific shows and not browsing the guide. :D

[Stormspace]

Regarding grip #3, I know what you mean about not being able to scan to the right quickly in the guide, but you do know that if you hit "Info" while in the guide you can select teh date and time the guide is looking at... When I want to brouse what's coming up in the days ahead, it's actually quicker for me to do that then 'skimming' on my old SA8300 whre I would over/under shoot most of the time and have to bump it a few times to get to the actual time I was looking for.

I was reminded about this when I saw it in another thread. Maybe it will be a good work around.

[MichaelK]

If I rememebr ther ewas a backddor code in some version of the software with an attempt at a free space indicator.

If I remember it didn't work so well.

I guess it takes more time to implement than they feel it is worth.

[SeanTivo]

It would also have to show the number of hours left for each quality setting. Of course it would be meaningless since shows scheduled in the future would eat up that free space, so it's not really a true indicator.

I suppose you never check your bank account balances. After all, if the display
doesn't show your automatic monthly payments which will eat up your balance
it's not a "true indicator" of how much money you have in your account, right???

Geeze. I can't believe the thick skulls of the people who argue this.

IT'S USEFULL!!!!!!!!

I don't track what I record minute by minute so if I want to setup a recording for a 6 hour HD golf match on my way out the door on Sunday it's helpful to know if the disk space is 90% full or 10%.

If it's 10% I know I'm OK. If it's 90% I know I may have to watch out for some stuff I want getting deleted.

Usefull info at a friggin glance!!!!!!!

And don't tell me about suggestions. Why record crap I don't want to watch when all I need is a disk spce used indicator.

[SeanTivo]

With a 250gb drive mixed will HD, SD digital content, and SD analog content encoded at potentiall different quality settings- how the hell do you do any type of quick math to figure out what is going on?

If I'm about to setup a 6 hour HD recording on my way out the door and the disk space used indicator is at 50%, I do some amazingly complex calculations (apparently more complex than you can handle) and head out the door without worrying about something I want getting deleted.

Man. I'm done on this one.

[MichaelK]

If I'm about to setup a 6 hour HD recording on my way out the door and the disk space used indicator is at 50%, I do some amazingly complex calculations (apparently more complex than you can handle) and head out the door without worrying about something I want getting deleted.

Man. I'm done on this one.

why do you have to be an Ah@le- just becasue you think someone disagrees with you?

My left toe is probably smarter then you.

See I can be childish also.


Now if you calm down and take a second to try and understand my post- I was agreeing with you that it's a major PIA for the end user to do the "amazingly complex" "second grade" math in their head with the current system. You cant just look at the Now Playing list- or even the suggestions and quickly find out how many gigs have been recorded since you dont know the bit rates of all the different sources without looking at each individual show or suggestion.

That said- I believe you are the thick skulled by not tryign to see the other people's point- what do you do if the thing tells you you your are 25% empty- Do you record your 6 hour HD golf match or not? First you need to go check the todo list and see what is going to happen on the other tuner. If it's recording 3 hours of HD then probably you are hosed. If it's recording 3 hours of analog cable at best quality you may be hosed, if it's recording 3 hours of SD Digital cable you are probably fine.


Personally I think TiVo should just put in a % indicator of disk space and be done with it. But i see there are some usability reasons which make them decide it's not worth the time spent.

[ashu]

Personally I think TiVo should just put in a % indicator of disk space and be done with it. But i see there are some usability reasons which make them decide it's not worth the time spent.

The effort involved has nothing to do with not including the % use indicator. Since that is subject to interpretation and means nothing without (myriad of reasons repeatedly covered) they have chosen not to include it.

Maybe the issue here is that they need to stop being such nannies and give us a half-baked feature for a change. :D :p

Seriously ... this one issue HAS been ignored too long. And the halfway solutions that used to be in (some) previous versions with a remote hack have also been aliminated.

It's good it's being discussed, though - based on responses, hopefully, they'll prioritize their coding ToDo list! This still ranks (WAYYY) lower than assignable QAM in the clear channels for the S3!

[RoanokeHokie]

A bug could impact video quality, but outside of that I was under the impression that all decoders were supposed to produce the same output for the same input. That's the MPEG model, a defined decoder, but the encoder is free to do what it wants.Some MPEG decoders go 'beyond' the spec, most notably by changing the output resolution in the decoder instead of scaling the decoder's output. Scaling video within the decoder offers the possibility to improve resolution by using otherwise-discarded fractional remainders to make minute on-screen position adjustments. Doing so requires adjustment of the B and P frame data as well, to compensate for the fractional difference, but it is possible.

It is my understanding that upconverting DVD players use techniques such as this to achieve results that are "better" than plain video scaling. I've never been certain that such tricks improve picture quality, but it certainly seems like a nice marketing blurb.

I have no idea, though, if the Series 3 is upconverting SD digital channels in this way with Fixed output mode or if any of the Cable Co. DVRs do it.

[Stormspace]

I suppose you never check your bank account balances. After all, if the display
doesn't show your automatic monthly payments which will eat up your balance
it's not a "true indicator" of how much money you have in your account, right???

Geeze. I can't believe the thick skulls of the people who argue this.

IT'S USEFULL!!!!!!!!

I don't track what I record minute by minute so if I want to setup a recording for a 6 hour HD golf match on my way out the door on Sunday it's helpful to know if the disk space is 90% full or 10%.

If it's 10% I know I'm OK. If it's 90% I know I may have to watch out for some stuff I want getting deleted.

Usefull info at a friggin glance!!!!!!!

And don't tell me about suggestions. Why record crap I don't want to watch when all I need is a disk spce used indicator.

I'm not the pnly one to have said it, but it does appear to be a live TV mentality that thinks a FSI is needed. When I schedule a show the TiVo tells me if I have enough room, so why should I go someplace else to check? Dude, maybe you need to use your TiVo a little longer.

[Stephen Tu]

I'm not the pnly one to have said it, but it does appear to be a live TV mentality that thinks a FSI is needed. When I schedule a show the TiVo tells me if I have enough room, so why should I go someplace else to check? Dude, maybe you need to use your TiVo a little longer
I've used Tivo for over 7 years. Long enough for you?

Tivo only gives warnings that it will have to delete some shows earlier than planned. It won't warn if you have a bunch of expired recordings on the drive since it thinks it's fine to delete those. Personally, I don't usually want Tivo auto-deleting any shows for me, I want to watch them & delete them myself. But I also don't want to bother with setting KUID on everything (which leads to a ton of annoying warnings even though you know that you will watch & delete in time), nor with managing the "keep until" date on everything. I just use the defaults & let things expire, I know nothing ever gets deleted until the drive gets full. Thus all I need is something that tells me the drive is getting full & that I better watch & delete some shows before Tivo overwrites them. With analog SD, with Tivo drives getting bigger this hasn't been a big issue (except before/after long vacations) for awhile for me, but with HD chewing up more space it's an issue again.

I find the FSI indicator on the Motorola 6412/iGuide useful. I know HD programs chew up ~7% of the indicator per hour fairly consistently. If it's 70% full, I instantly know I can record the 3HD hrs of shows the next evening without problem. If it's 85% full I know I better watch a few.

If there was a GB free or % free indicator on the Tivo, I could figure out a rough estimate of how much an HD show takes per hour, + SD shows at various quality settings, and with a little multiplication * addition, I couldeasily figure out whether I better finish watching some shows or not, as I know how many shows I am recording each day. As it is, I'd have to use Suggestions + Recently deleted as a poor man's FSI, which sucks since you only get a count of number of shows, doesn't take into account how long the shows are or what quality. If I am near the limit, & want a fairly accurate estimate I have to laboriously scroll through all the shows adding up the times & making the adjustments for quality setting. A simple FSI would be much easier & faster.

[bicker]

Well, actually, it is a workaround. It may not be as good as a day-skip button, but it is a workaround.

[bicker]

why do you have to be an Ah@le- just becasue you think someone disagrees with you?That's Sean's MO, it seems.

But i see there are some usability reasons which make them decide it's not worth the time spent.Systems development is always a series of compromises and trade-offs. Only large companies seem to have tons of resources available to address every desired intention.

[Stormspace]

I've used Tivo for over 7 years. Long enough for you?

Tivo only gives warnings that it will have to delete some shows earlier than planned. It won't warn if you have a bunch of expired recordings on the drive since it thinks it's fine to delete those. Personally, I don't usually want Tivo auto-deleting any shows for me, I want to watch them & delete them myself. But I also don't want to bother with setting KUID on everything (which leads to a ton of annoying warnings even though you know that you will watch & delete in time), nor with managing the "keep until" date on everything. I just use the defaults & let things expire, I know nothing ever gets deleted until the drive gets full. Thus all I need is something that tells me the drive is getting full & that I better watch & delete some shows before Tivo overwrites them. With analog SD, with Tivo drives getting bigger this hasn't been a big issue (except before/after long vacations) for awhile for me, but with HD chewing up more space it's an issue again.

I find the FSI indicator on the Motorola 6412/iGuide useful. I know HD programs chew up ~7% of the indicator per hour fairly consistently. If it's 70% full, I instantly know I can record the 3HD hrs of shows the next evening without problem. If it's 85% full I know I better watch a few.

If there was a GB free or % free indicator on the Tivo, I could figure out a rough estimate of how much an HD show takes per hour, + SD shows at various quality settings, and with a little multiplication * addition, I couldeasily figure out whether I better finish watching some shows or not, as I know how many shows I am recording each day. As it is, I'd have to use Suggestions + Recently deleted as a poor man's FSI, which sucks since you only get a count of number of shows, doesn't take into account how long the shows are or what quality. If I am near the limit, & want a fairly accurate estimate I have to laboriously scroll through all the shows adding up the times & making the adjustments for quality setting. A simple FSI would be much easier & faster.

When I first got TiVo I mentioned a FSI in the suggestion avenue and received the standard response, but after using TiVo and seeing how it handles space issues I've never had to worry about it, even when I was using a 40 hr unit. I let things expire and generally by the time they do I have either watched them or I'm not interested in seeing them. Only on two occasions in the 3 years I've had TiVo have I had to worry about space and in both cases it was because I had too many KUID shows. (My wife likes to archive movies for sick days).

Also as I became more familiar with TiVo I upgraded my drives to 180 hour and 140 hour which allows me to never have to worry about space. If something expires now it's because no one wanted to watch it or it was watched weeks ago. We did get close last year when the wife insisted on archiving all the american idol shows which were recorded at best, but after the season was over she started deleting them one at a time over a month. :(

So, back to the FSI. It will only work if it's set to tell you how many hours are left at each resolution. It must also ignore suggestions and deleted shows. This last part might be the problem for TiVo if the show is never actually deleted from the drive, but given some sort of overwrite flag that tells the box this one can be copied over. Someone who's hacked the OS might have that info, but if the show is never deleted it might be difficult to calculate free space. In my mind to physically delete a show would take too much processing time when an overwrite would suffice and scanning all shows for an overwrite flag might just take longer than reorganizing your season passes. ;)

[Georgia Guy]

So, back to the FSI. It will only work if it's set to tell you how many hours are left at each resolution.

True, but I'd bet there are many like me who ONLY use an HD-dvr for HD programming. I use all my other Tivos (with MRV) for sd and keep the HD machine for its primary purpose, HD. HD takes up way too much space to be junking it up with SD shows. The 6412's fsi is very very handy (as someone mentioned previously, approx 7% = one hour). When I get an S3, I'll contiune to do it the same way, especially if Tivo doesn't add MRV to the S3. Using the S3 for HD would only make the fsi equally useful, at least to me.

[MichaelK]

True, but I'd bet there are many like me who ONLY use an HD-dvr for HD programming. I use all my other Tivos (with MRV) for sd and keep the HD machine for its primary purpose, HD. HD takes up way too much space to be junking it up with SD shows. The 6412's fsi is very very handy (as someone mentioned previously, approx 7% = one hour). When I get an S3, I'll contiune to do it the same way, especially if Tivo doesn't add MRV to the S3. Using the S3 for HD would only make the fsi equally useful, at least to me.


As i said above I think they should just add it- make it a back door code so those that understand the limits can get to it and use as they see fit but hide it from the general public so they dont have to sweat the usibility issues.

But-
I think that its actually less likely with the series 3 that people only record HD on them- with the moto boxes users are almost forced to use them only for HD becasue they have such small hard drives.

And MRV is not yet an option with So if there is a show you like in SD you cant record it in a differnt room and move it over unless you keep a seperate SD tivo in the same room.

I spend 800 bucks for the darn thing I'm not going to spend another 30 dollars for an sd one to sit next to it-LOL. :D

[MickeS]

I suppose you never check your bank account balances. After all, if the display
doesn't show your automatic monthly payments which will eat up your balance
it's not a "true indicator" of how much money you have in your account, right???


You're absolutely right - I keep a checkbook, which has the projected balance at any given time for any given date. If I would just use the bank's account balance function to check, it would not include checks and any credit charges that have not gone through yet. Just like a FSI like you propose doesn't take into account scheduled recordings. Thanks for the analogy. :D

[MickeS]

So, back to the FSI. It will only work if it's set to tell you how many hours are left at each resolution. It must also ignore suggestions and deleted shows. This last part might be the problem for TiVo if the show is never actually deleted from the drive, but given some sort of overwrite flag that tells the box this one can be copied over. Someone who's hacked the OS might have that info, but if the show is never deleted it might be difficult to calculate free space. In my mind to physically delete a show would take too much processing time when an overwrite would suffice and scanning all shows for an overwrite flag might just take longer than reorganizing your season passes. ;)

A FSI where you could enter recording quality and a date and time, and it would spit out remaining space at that date and time would be useful. It would also not do much more than a look in the "To Do" list does currently.

[btwyx]

I spend 800 bucks for the darn thing I'm not going to spend another 30 dollars for an sd one to sit next to it-LOL. :DI'm spending 800 bucks on the darn thing, I want it to deal with all my programming and not have to have another box to talk to.

[MichaelK]

you way sounds so serious-LOL

but yup- i agree with that too- I'm getting ready to stuff a 500gig in this weekend so I can have one box that does EVERYTHING....

[Georgia Guy]

And MRV is not yet an option with So if there is a show you like in SD you cant record it in a differnt room and move it over unless you keep a seperate SD tivo in the same room.


Well, that's exactly what I do now. A 200+ hour S2 sits right next to my 6412. The S2, which can pull shows from 2 other rooms, controls an older 5000-series Moto digital box.
I don't see that changing when I eventually get an S3.

[MichaelK]

see above

LOL

kidding aside- I think most people are trying to minimze the amount of devices in their AV stack.

[Georgia Guy]

LOL
To each his own. Some people want a short av stack, some don't. :D

[TonyD79]

Interesting thread. And, no, TiVo is not perfect and there are niceties from other DVRs that would be nice on the TiVo (I, too would like a FSI, but I've been using Tivo for about 6 years and never really had a need for it; the TiVo manages my programs for me. If you don't want something to delete, don't let it go to the deletable state. You need to communicate with your TiVo, same as any other device.)

I have an SD8300 running Sara software (that is crap) and have learned the Moto extensively because my best friends have one. I prefer the TiVo intelligence in handling programming and options. I also have a Panny DVD burner with TVGuide interface (real crap but I use it as a VCR anyway).

I also prefer one basic thing about TiVo that the other DVRs seem to miss. The others tend to create a button for specific purposes or "extra" buttons (like green, red and yellow buttons or buttons A, B, C). These annoy me to no end.

Example: on my SA8300, if I want to delete a program that is not at the end, if I am watching it, I have to hit STOP (a DVR with a stop button???) then select that I want to erase then I am asked again and instead of just hitting select, I have to hit the "A" button.

Another SA8300 example (that is the one I use the most other than TiVo, sorry). In TiVo if I want to go up or down a page in either guide style, i just use the Channel up/down button. In the SA8300, there is a page up/down button set that does nothing but page up/down. What a waste (and it filled up my programmable remote, I never use the supplied remotes, they all suck for serious A/V setups).

So, if they implement a day forward button (I have no problem hitting INFO, then skipping up a day and hitting select on the Tivo), it would be nice if it were the skip to tick button/replay button.

Forget PIP. While it is reasonable thing, doesn't it require a hardware change?

[mtchamp]

I plan on getting a Series3 before the Lifetime transfer deal ends, maybe 2. In the mean time, there isn't much to say until I get one, so I'll give you my 6 years of experience with TiVos and space management.

You upgrade them with larger disk drives and own more than one TiVo so that you'll have plenty of space to record everything you want with no conflicts and still end up with more than enough stuff you'll never have time to watch.

I had two 140 hour DirecTiVos and now because I left DirecTV for the switch to Series3, I'm back to my old Series2's until the Series3 is purchased and upgraded.

[MichaelK]

LOL
To each his own. Some people want a short av stack, some don't. :D

sometimes i guess size matters....

[MichaelK]

...

Forget PIP. While it is reasonable thing, doesn't it require a hardware change?


myself i have no use at all for PIP.

But I think the chipset in the S3 is the same as the new Directv HD DVR and if i recall that does pip.

So i think it would be doable.

I would personally rather then use all that time to do somethign cool like open the dvr functions to hme or allow collaborative scheduling between boxes, etc.

But to each his own....

[HomieG]

About the free space indicator, coming from a DirecTV world I always imagined D* didn't want TiVo to impliment it. If they did you could work out exactly how pitiful a bit rate D* was sending you. Such damaging information is off limits to meer users.


You are sooooooooooo right :up:

[HomieG]

Now if you calm down and take a second to try and understand my post- I was agreeing with you that it's a major PIA for the end user to do the "amazingly complex" "second grade" math in their head with the current system. You cant just look at the Now Playing list- or even the suggestions and quickly find out how many gigs have been recorded since you dont know the bit rates of all the different sources without looking at each individual show or suggestion.

That said- I believe you are the thick skulled by not tryign to see the other people's point- what do you do if the thing tells you you your are 25% empty- Do you record your 6 hour HD golf match or not? First you need to go check the todo list and see what is going to happen on the other tuner. If it's recording 3 hours of HD then probably you are hosed. If it's recording 3 hours of analog cable at best quality you may be hosed, if it's recording 3 hours of SD Digital cable you are probably fine.


Personally I think TiVo should just put in a % indicator of disk space and be done with it. But i see there are some usability reasons which make them decide it's not worth the time spent.


So, have you ever used one of the Motorola boxes that show space used/space free (by simple math)? Any first-hand experience? Did it burn you so bad that it ruined your life. Goodness, the name calling. A bunch of 8 year olds are better behaved.

We do know the total SD and HD capacity of our 120GB Motorola units. It's documented, and pretty well promoted on Motorola's web-site. Perhaps some aren't so good at math, but the having this form of FSI is better than nothing.

Oh, yea, the Motorola box we've got will even warn you that there isn't enough space available to record a selection, so it does some of that simple math anyways.

TiVo could implement a useful FSI, show the free space as estimates for SD and HD. Still better than nothing.

[cogx]

I miss the fact that the Motorola box would constantly list shows in its "Scheduled Recordings" and then not record them. That Tivo, actually recording everything it says it's going to. How boring.

(Sarcasm above noted and agreed with.)

OVERLAP PROTECTION, my friends, is just one of the many critical features that makes a TiVo superior to the 6412 (and I assume every non-TiVo DVR out there).
Ask for it by name.

[bicker]

Example of better software: When the networks change the start time for a program (10:00 to 10:01, for example), the two devices handle it differently. The TiVo keeps track of the change as a change -- it simply changes the start time for the specific program listing, and then lets the scheduling software deal with conflicts and clipping, as applicable. Our 3412 treats the old and new start times as separate listings, and the earlier listing (of course) no longer appears in the guide, so if you had it set up for recording, you can no longer grab hold of it to change the recording options or to delete it. We missed Boston Legal and the Lost recap show this week because of this, and we saw it happening in advance, but couldn't fix it (without resetting the box and losing our stored recordings).

[Stephen Tu]

When the networks change the start time for a program ...
We missed Boston Legal and the Lost recap show this week because of this, and we saw it happening in advance, but couldn't fix it (without resetting the box and losing our stored recordings).

Yes, this is one of the annoying bugs on the iGuide on the Motorola x41x. However, if you spot this problem in advance, it's possible to fix it to record the shows without resetting the box & losing shows. First delete all the shows+series recordings in that particular time slot. Set a show in that slot to record, select the moved show to record, then yet another show so that it asks you to delete the moved show. I forget the exact steps, but I am always eventually able to get rid of the phantom original show item from the to do list. Then I delete everything, & reenter the series + shows to record in that time slot, everything then records fine.

To save $800, I am willing to deal with this the 3-5 times per year I see it. It's not like TIvo requires absolutely zero maintenance here either; sometimes it gets a show change late, it records (diffferent show or rerun) anyway, then to get the real airing you have to change to "get all episodes" or wait for new airing schedule to pop up & do a "record this episode also" so the 28 day rule doesn't kick in. It's just better at dealing with these 1 minute move tweaks.

[bicker]

I tried just about everything along the lines you suggest, without success. It always protected the ghost, and told me that whatever conflict I tried to create was with the real program I was trying to record.

I had this happen to me three times in two weeks. That was enough for my wife.

[Stephen Tu]

I'll try to note down more exact steps next time I see it happen. I've always been able to get rid of the phantom to do list item, just never bothered to figure out the exact sequence necessary.

[MichaelK]

So, have you ever used one of the Motorola boxes that show space used/space free (by simple math)? Any first-hand experience? Did it burn you so bad that it ruined your life. Goodness, the name calling. A bunch of 8 year olds are better behaved.

We do know the total SD and HD capacity of our 120GB Motorola units. It's documented, and pretty well promoted on Motorola's web-site. Perhaps some aren't so good at math, but the having this form of FSI is better than nothing.

Oh, yea, the Motorola box we've got will even warn you that there isn't enough space available to record a selection, so it does some of that simple math anyways.

TiVo could implement a useful FSI, show the free space as estimates for SD and HD. Still better than nothing.

I dont know why I'm a magnet for the attacks- but again i think there should be a FSI. SO why do you think I'm saying it's going to ruin my life.

I was responding the the first guys attacks and trying to tell him to calm down that other people have another point of view. I was trying to give a concrete example of how tivo might have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be worth the time to develop for the masses. (and again i dont necessarily agree with their conclusion- just trying to understand what they think...)

Yes I have used a motorolla box. It has the Iguide software that my provider has i find so horrific compared to the Tivo that I dont even think a comparison is warrented (i dont know what version it is becasue i cant even find that screen. But I think people are talkign about a differnt brand or newer software on their moto boxes and that those other brands/versions have some nice features. (and to be fair- just as some people are used to teh moto boxes and find the way tivo does things to be annoying, i am so used to the tivo ui that i find the moto annoying.- but in all honesty there are more than one ways to skin a cat, so both might just be fine and there's really no need to be so hostile about one or the other.)

and also tivo clearly does the math all the time too- it will notify you if things need to get deleted early or cant record- so I think it can figure it out. But as my previous post said- at one point there was a backdoor code to enable a FSI and for wahtever reason it wasn't the most accurate or user friendly.