I want my QAM-in-the-clear TV!

[sockgap]

So my S3 is all hooked up to the cable feed, waiting for the Comcast guy to show up next week with my cablecards. But I've got no HD channels in the meantime, so I hit on the bright idea of running the channel scan to see if the HD locals show up in the clear and low and behold there they all are, like Fox is on 2-1 in great quality, easily as good as it would be on 702 if I had my cable cards. Trouble is, TiVo won't supply guide data for it, won't admit the channel is Fox, keeps putting its hands over its ears and saying "I'm not listening" etc.
Yeah I know, this is in the FAQ - QAM-in-the-clear is half supported, no guide data, yada yada yada.

Then I tried splitting my cable feed (already had it through a splitting amp anyway) feeding the copy into the antenna input, then redoing guided setup for cable and antenna. My theory was that it would find channels like 2-1 on the antenna input in the course of the scan. Turns out that doesn't work though. Damn. Must be that only ATSC channels are looked for on that input.

So here's my plea. Please TiVo, make digital local channels work.
It gives multiple HD channels that work even if your cable card is missing or on the fritz. Some people wouldn't even need to get cable cards, if all they want is HD locals and analog cable.

[rainwater]

There's no way for TiVo to automatically map those channels to their channel ids. This is basically what a cable card does.

A lot of people have requested that TiVo offer channel mapping however, so you could manually set each channel. Hopefully, TiVo will add this someday to allow non-digital subscribers to use clear QAM channels. Considering the initial cost is $800, you can't blame them for not rushing this feature. Most of the people paying that much will be paying for digital cable already (or will be now that they have the TiVo).

[lemketron]

There's no way for TiVo to automatically map those channels to their channel ids. This is basically what a cable card does.

A lot of people have requested that TiVo offer channel mapping however, so you could manually set each channel. Hopefully, TiVo will add this someday to allow non-digital subscribers to use clear QAM channels. Considering the initial cost is $800, you can't blame them for not rushing this feature. Most of the people paying that much will be paying for digital cable already (or will be now that they have the TiVo).
TiVos are networked devices though. Like jukebox software that connects to CDDB, I would expect that once someone has manually mapped the channels for a given area (assuming TiVo doesn't just do it themselves), that information should be made available -- at least as a preliminary set of defaults -- to any other TiVo users on that cable system.

Mapping is a PITA, and (IMO) there's no reason to ever make two people in the same area have to both do it (unless you take the first few just to confirm the data is correct before releasing it to others). Once it's been done (or updated) it should be automatic. How often does the QAM channel mapping change anyway? It never changed in the month I had my HD set before the S3 arrived.

[Steve Richards]

Then I tried splitting my cable feed (already had it through a splitting amp anyway) feeding the copy into the antenna input, then redoing guided setup for cable and antenna. My theory was that it would find channels like 2-1 on the antenna input in the course of the scan. Turns out that doesn't work though. Damn. Must be that only ATSC channels are looked for on that input.[/QUOTE]


So call ATSC channels are actually 8VSB which is not QAM. Some cable systems do send 8VSB over cable though.

Steve

[Saxion]

I pay $12/month for cable and for that I get all the HD locals, which I can tune using the built-in QAM tuner in my TV (no cable box). I suspect I'm not alone, and that there is a large group of consumers who are interested in the S3 precisely because they want to record HD without having to upgrade their cable subscription. Which begs the question: why didn't TiVo include manual channel mapping of unencrypted QAM channels on the S3? The S3 has been delayed for years...they had plenty of time to add what should have been a trivially simple feature.

I have a worrisome suspicion. TiVo is trying to foster a cozy relationship with the cable industry (see their recent TV Week ad for the S3 making a "customer loyalty" / "churn reduction" argument direct to cable execs in pointing out the lack of satellite support in the S3, and their recent business deals to bring the TiVo interface to cable STBs). TiVo wants to be a partner with cable, not a competitor. I believe they are reluctant to add features to the S3 that directly hurt cable companies financially, and manual channel mapping would mean that customers would not have to buy "official" HDTV support from their cable provider which entails a digital tier, an HD tier, a cablecard rental, etc.

I'm worried that we will never see manual channel mapping of unencrypted QAM channels on the S3. I won't buy an S3 without this feature, and I know I'm not alone. Perhaps if we make our voices heard, we can overcome TiVo's reluctance to upset big cable too much.

[cwoody222]

TiVos are networked devices though. Like jukebox software that connects to CDDB, I would expect that once someone has manually mapped the channels for a given area (assuming TiVo doesn't just do it themselves), that information should be made available -- at least as a preliminary set of defaults -- to any other TiVo users on that cable system.

Mapping is a PITA, and (IMO) there's no reason to ever make two people in the same area have to both do it (unless you take the first few just to confirm the data is correct before releasing it to others). Once it's been done (or updated) it should be automatic. How often does the QAM channel mapping change anyway? It never changed in the month I had my HD set before the S3 arrived.

I am pretty sure QAM data can differ between people in the same given area. It depends on what cable "headend" your home is served by. There's no way for TiVo to know that and no way to know it won't change.

[cwoody222]

I believe they are reluctant to add features to the S3 that directly hurt cable companies financially,

Kinda like coming out with a product that replaces a cable company's very profitable set top box? :rolleyes:

[Steve Richards]

I am pretty sure QAM data can differ between people in the same given area. It depends on what cable "headend" your home is served by. There's no way for TiVo to know that and no way to know it won't change.

Not to mention that you could be served by different vendors (IE Comcast/Verizon).

Since the mapping can change at anytime Tivo would need an agreement with each MSO to provide the data and agree to provide it real time. Very unlikely to happen...

[jfh3]

Yup, a manual QAM mapping function is needed for sure. It should be very easy to implement, so maybe we'll see one in the next release.

[ah30k]

Not to mention that you could be served by different vendors (IE Comcast/Verizon).

Since the mapping can change at anytime Tivo would need an agreement with each MSO to provide the data and agree to provide it real time. Very unlikely to happen...Thats why we are only asking for MANUAL mapping, not automated. I can map them myself and take responsibility when they are changed.

[cwoody222]

Not gonna happen.

TiVo's all about 'ease of use'. They're not going to add a feature that 'requires' customers to go thru that painstaking process. Especially when 99% of their customers don't know what the heck "QAM" is. Plus customers would be expected to re-map QAM stations when/if they change.

Basically: it leads to a bad product experience.

Using a CableCARD leads to a good experience.

I don't expect TiVo to EVER add remapping for any purpose. It's just not something they think a big enough percentage of customers would find useful especially considering the possible side-effect of alienating people who 'don't get it'.

[rainwater]

Not gonna happen.

TiVo's all about 'ease of use'. They're not going to add a feature that 'requires' customers to go thru that painstaking process. Especially when 99% of their customers don't know what the heck "QAM" is. Plus customers would be expected to re-map QAM stations when/if they change.


I don't know. They already said they are "considering" it for a future release. So they are certainly aware of this. From what I have been told, the sony box did channel mapping in a pretty intuitive way. Obviously, this would be an advanced feature, but I don't think its an impossible feature.

[Jazhuis]

Using a CableCARD leads to a good experience.
Despite the argument that manual QAM mapping might make things complicated, I think there are about 20 threads in this forum that contradict that statement. :D

[cwoody222]

Despite the argument that manual QAM mapping might make things complicated, I think there are about 20 threads in this forum that contradict that statement. :D

From users that understand what the heck it is in the first place.

Personally I don't think it's complicated. But my father or friend or co-worker with TiVo? They'd have no clue.

I don't know. They already said they are "considering" it for a future release. So they are certainly aware of this. From what I have been told, the sony box did channel mapping in a pretty intuitive way. Obviously, this would be an advanced feature, but I don't think its an impossible feature.

They're also working on TiVo ToGo for Mac. And a Netflix deal. And a Verizon deal. And HMO apps. And adding features for DirecTV users. Shall I go on?

"Considering" and "you'll see it in your lifetime" are not the same thing :D

[mindstorm]

Using a CableCARD leads to a good experience.



Stop it....you're making me laugh too hard. I'm still wiping the soda off my monitor and out of my nose :D (submitted on behalf of 99% of those people who have had to deal to the S3 and cable cards and their respective vendor)

[sockgap]

What gets me is that it doesn't even seem hard for TiVo to map these channels automatically.

Example: Fox is on analog 2. Guess what digital channel 2-1 is? Clue: it's a cute animal with red fur.

[lemketron]

What gets me is that it doesn't even seem hard for TiVo to map these channels automatically.

Example: Fox is on analog 2. Guess what digital channel 2-1 is? Clue: it's a cute animal with red fur.
Heh. And, it wouldn't be that hard to do an assisted mapping either. Heck, the guided setup already asks "what channel do you see on channel x - is it foo? or bar?"

Given that some areas (like Sunnyvale) only get seven HD channels in the first place, two of which are encrypted, mapping the other five would be trivial: Show a HD channel, and have the user select "ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, or PBS?" The second channel has only four choices left, and so on. If nothing else, it would give people programming guide information to hold them over while they're waiting for cable cards, or help those who don't plan to get anything other than basic cable (never mind whether that's a waste of a S3 box or not).

[Robo1234]

ATSC channels and Qam see

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=317844

I hope they can help us there are many more out there yet to speak up....we need a big voice so they make the move ......

[theone]

saxion I'm worried that we will never see manual channel mapping of unencrypted QAM channels on the S3. I won't buy an S3 without this feature, and I know I'm not alone. Perhaps if we make our voices heard, we can overcome TiVo's reluctance to upset big cable too much.

That unfortunately is the exact reason I just bought another S2. I dont want to pay for digital cable just to be able to record HD. No cablecards without digital cable in my area.

[jfh3]

Not gonna happen.

TiVo's all about 'ease of use'. They're not going to add a feature that 'requires' customers to go thru that painstaking process. Especially when 99% of their customers don't know what the heck "QAM" is. Plus customers would be expected to re-map QAM stations when/if they change.

Basically: it leads to a bad product experience.

Using a CableCARD leads to a good experience.

I don't expect TiVo to EVER add remapping for any purpose. It's just not something they think a big enough percentage of customers would find useful especially considering the possible side-effect of alienating people who 'don't get it'.

Why? It's in the Sony DVRs and was easy to use.
Besides, this isn't for the 99% of customers that don't know what QAM is - it's for the 1% that do.

[Gregor]

What gets me is that it doesn't even seem hard for TiVo to map these channels automatically.

Example: Fox is on analog 2. Guess what digital channel 2-1 is? Clue: it's a cute animal with red fur.

It doesn't work that way on all systems. Fox is analog channel 11 on my system and digital at 82-6 and HD at 116-1.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Kinda like coming out with a product that replaces a cable company's very profitable set top box? :rolleyes:
I think this is misleading.

I don't think a set top box is profitable by itself for the cable company. People have reported that these boxes cost the companies $500 or maybe even $800. Therefore they are not profitable when rented at $10/mo.

It is only when a box is used together with digital cable or premium channels or PPV or VOD that is becomes profitable.

Right now S3 still allows cable companies to sell profitable digital cable and premium channels. It even gets them out of the hassle of dealing with the boxes which probably have a churn of 24 months or less. So those boxes need to be handled quite a few times during their useful life.

If the companies want to continue making money on PPV and VOD they can either:

a) stop stalling on CC 2.0
or
b) allow ordering PPV over the internet. PPV is doubtlessly where the money is. VOD is more of a loss-leader and/or TiVo competitor.

[lemketron]

If the companies want to continue making money on PPV and VOD they can either:

a) stop stalling on CC 2.0 or
b) allow ordering PPV over the internet. PPV is doubtlessly where the money is. VOD is more of a loss-leader and/or TiVo competitor.
Seems that if they recognize the potential here, they should just write an app that runs right on the TiVo (or get it integrated) for ordering PPV. If the TiVo is "on the net" it should be able to post the request over the 'net, and have the head-end send the cookie to your cable card to let you watch the show...

Or maybe we'll have to wait for Amazon's movie service to appear on TiVo (since that rumor is all over the news today). ;-)

[Phantom Gremlin]

If the TiVo is "on the net" it should be able to post the request over the 'net, and have the head-end send the cookie to your cable card to let you watch the show...
This is a great idea. Screw CC 2.0, just let the TiVo make requests over the net. But its way too logical to ever happen!

[Saxion]

Not gonna happen.

TiVo's all about 'ease of use'. They're not going to add a feature that 'requires' customers to go thru that painstaking process. Especially when 99% of their customers don't know what the heck "QAM" is. Plus customers would be expected to re-map QAM stations when/if they change.

Basically: it leads to a bad product experience.

Using a CableCARD leads to a good experience.

I don't expect TiVo to EVER add remapping for any purpose. It's just not something they think a big enough percentage of customers would find useful especially considering the possible side-effect of alienating people who 'don't get it'.I disagree...if it doesn't happen, it won't be because it's technically difficult or degrades the user experience, it will be because cable would be unhappy about too many people getting "free" HD.

Nothing about manual QAM channel mapping "requires" a user to do anything...why do you think it would? We are talking about an advanced feature buried deep in a menu somewhere. Average Joe would have no idea it even existed, and would just go out and get a cablecard just like today. Technically savvy users could choose to ditch the cablecard and map manually (and suffer the remapping if the channels should move). Adding a new option and keeping everything else the same doesn't make for a "bad user experience", it makes for a larger customer base.

[Saxion]

Kinda like coming out with a product that replaces a cable company's very profitable set top box? :rolleyes:Indeed. TiVo walks a fine line here...cable obviously wants their own STB sitting there, for a variety of reasons. Did you see the TVWeek ad? It was very much reaching out to cable, trying to convince them that TiVo is good for cable, not bad. I sense a hesitancy on the part of TiVo to rock the cable boat any more than it has to.

[doormat]

Does anyone know if the S3 TiVo will acknowledge PSIP data in the unencrypted QAM streams?

My cable company (Cox) provides the PSIP data in the stream. My HDTV is smart enough to insert the unencrypted QAM HD channel into the lineup. So when I channel surf its 3 (NBC), 3-1 (NBC HD), 3-2 (NBC WX), 4, 5, 5-1,.... etc.

[jfh3]

I disagree...if it doesn't happen, it won't be because it's technically difficult or degrades the user experience, it will be because cable would be unhappy about too many people getting "free" HD.

Nobody would be getting "free HD", other than that which they are already entitled to.

You aren't going to get any encrypyted channels, even if you can map them.

[lemketron]

Indeed. TiVo walks a fine line here...cable obviously wants their own STB sitting there, for a variety of reasons. Did you see the TVWeek ad? It was very much reaching out to cable, trying to convince them that TiVo is good for cable, not bad. I sense a hesitancy on the part of TiVo to rock the cable boat any more than it has to.
Makes sense. Consider how useless an S3 box is without Cable. So TiVo needs Cable to not completely hate this box, which is to say the cable card installation experience needs to get better/faster/foolproof (for users and installers), not worse (because, say, cable people see that every time a customer mentions "S3", they cringe and think "oh great, there goes another two hours of my installer's time". Ideally things would get so good that all of the cable companies would happily hand out a pair of cable cards to the customer, rather than forcing a truck roll (which I guarantee you costs them more than $15.99, and they're sure to resent having to do it).

OTOH, Cable needs TiVo S3 too; perhaps they just don't realize it yet. S3 obviously replaces (or pre-empts) cable company DVRs, which reduces cable company (PPV/OD) revenue. So, assuming the cable companies don't end up hating S3 because of installation headaches, the next logical thing would be to add in some PPV ordering functionality right into the S3 box (as I've previously suggested) which (lo and behold) starts turning the S3 into a revenue generator for the cable company.

Picture this: S3 has all of the (potential PPV) user revenue of a cable company dvr, but they didn't have to subsidize the dvr purchase because the user shelled out $800 of their own money to buy it. That makes S3 (PPV-watching) customer even more valuable to the cable company than a (PPV-watching) cable company dvr customer.

(I'm sure they love all this armchair strategizing from the peanut gallery... I'm certainly often amused to read about what people think is going on in my company and/or industry...) :D

[jfh3]

OTOH, Cable needs TiVo S3 too; perhaps they just don't realize it yet.

Well, if you were the cable company, would you rather have to maintain 2 solid state cards that cost about $50 or a problematic Motorola DVR that cost about 10x that?

From a hardware cost perspective, it's a no brainer - the cable company SHOULD love the Series 3.

But no matter what happens, it won't make a difference to any cable company. Even if the Series 3 sells 100K units this fall, it'll be nothing more than a blip to the cable industry.

[Gregor]

This is a great idea. Screw CC 2.0, just let the TiVo make requests over the net. But its way too logical to ever happen!

The problem is most head-ends do not have a high-speed data link capable of supporting thousands of simultaneous transactions.

[lemketron]

The problem is most head-ends do not have a high-speed data link capable of supporting thousands of simultaneous transactions.
Um, we're talking about the cable company, right? Aren't those the guys who own the other end of my cable modem, and the wire that feeds it? :rolleyes:

[megazone]

What gets me is that it doesn't even seem hard for TiVo to map these channels automatically.

Example: Fox is on analog 2. Guess what digital channel 2-1 is? Clue: it's a cute animal with red fur.
That's NOT the mapping that needs to be done. They *KNOW* 2-1 is Fox digital - that's in the published guide data. What needs to be mapped the the carrier frequency the cable company uses for that channel. And that can change, in some areas it changes often. It can also very neighborhood to neighborhood in the same city on the same carrier, because they're talking to two head end systems.

It isn't a trivial problem to solve correctly for everyone, and that's the only solution they'll release.

They are looking at ways to do this for a future release, that's the best answer there is right now.

[Gregor]

Um, we're talking about the cable company, right? Aren't those the guys who own the other end of my cable modem, and the wire that feeds it? :rolleyes:

Correct. I was extremely surprised to find that out when I did some technical work involving those sites.

[lemketron]

Correct. I was extremely surprised to find that out when I did some technical work involving those sites.
No matter. It's a solveable problem, and I'm sure that they needed to in order to enable S3 boxes to generate PPV revenue, they could easily solve it. The harder part is convincing them to even pursue it.

[cogx]

It should not be hard at all, dare I say *trivial*, for the TiVo programmers to add the ability for us to match up an *existing* station in the guide data to a scanned/captured channel. The data is already on my TiVo as I type this, I simply need to associate KWWL-DT to channel 114-2 and the like. That station, and the others, are already in my guide data, both from the OTA guide data for my zip code, as well as the analog counterpart, which would suffice well enough too.

As for the interface, all I need, personally, is a screen almost the same as the channel listing screen, except once I select a scanned channel on the left side of the screen (which has no existing station associated to it) on the right side of the screen I would then scroll up or down through the *existing* stations from the guide data already on my TiVo and thus creating the channel-to-station link, just as already exists for the basic functionality of the TiVo.

I'm not saying this should have been the top priority over getting the S3 finally shipping, but it *is* a very obvious flaw/weakness/shortcoming which prevents my new $800+200 purchase from being perfection.

I'm the customer and I'm always right... right?

[Roderigo]

Which begs the question: why didn't TiVo include manual channel mapping of unencrypted QAM channels on the S3? The S3 has been delayed for years...they had plenty of time to add what should have been a trivially simple feature.

Hmm.. don't follow your logic here. Seems like if a product "has been delayed for years" adding a new feature, regardless of how "trivially simple" it is wouldn't help getting the product out the door without even more delays.

[megazone]

I'm the customer and I'm always right... right?Nope. The customer is definitely not always right. Anyone who has ever worked retail, or tech support, etc, can testify to that. :-)

[btwyx]

No matter. It's a solveable problem, and I'm sure that they needed to in order to enable S3 boxes to generate PPV revenue, they could easily solve it. The harder part is convincing them to even pursue it.It seems obvious to me. Marketing types should be salivating about selling their highest margin products to a group who can drop $800 on something they try to give away. However cable cos seem to be control freeks who want it done their way, and have no interest in giving the customer what they want.

[TiVoMonkey]

No cablecards without digital cable in my area.

That makes sense, since the only reason to use a CableCard is for digital cable channels.

[lemketron]

It seems obvious to me. Marketing types should be salivating about selling their highest margin products to a group who can drop $800 on something they try to give away.
Ding!!! :confused:

[Saxion]

Hmm.. don't follow your logic here. Seems like if a product "has been delayed for years" adding a new feature, regardless of how "trivially simple" it is wouldn't help getting the product out the door without even more delays.As I understand it, the S3 was held up by CableLabs certification, not software development at TiVo. So there should have been plenty of time for TiVo to add a simple manual channel mapping feature. Don't misunderstand though...I'd love to be proved wrong here! Nothing would make me happier than for TiVo to announce manual channel mapping in the next software update.

[vstone]

But the cable companies love PPV $. And they like On Demand because E*/D* can't do it.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

That makes sense, since the only reason to use a CableCard is for digital cable channels.

Depends. In my area, you don't have to subscribe to digital cable to get some digital cable channels (HD locals and some locally-broadcast SD digital channels), but without some way to map these in-the-clear channels, the S3 can't do anything terribly useful with them.

In other words, there's a difference between "subscribing to digital cable" and "receiving usable digital cable channels".

[cwoody222]

Stop it....you're making me laugh too hard. I'm still wiping the soda off my monitor and out of my nose :D (submitted on behalf of 99% of those people who have had to deal to the S3 and cable cards and their respective vendor)

GETTING a cable card installed my be hard. Once you have it, it's great. A few days of pain for a few years of enjoyment.

Why? It's in the Sony DVRs and was easy to use.
Besides, this isn't for the 99% of customers that don't know what QAM is - it's for the 1% that do.

The Sony PVR was a POS that they don't even make any more.

And products usually don't incorporate features for 1% of the users.

We are talking about an advanced feature buried deep in a menu somewhere.

Right. 'Cause TiVo's been so keen on using "advanced menus" for power users all along. :rolleyes: This argument has come up MANY times before with TiVo. For whatever reason (I presume it's ease of use, programming resources, tech support costs) they do not seem to want to incorporate features that would only be beneficial and understood by power users who dive into advanced menu features.

[cwoody222]

As I understand it, the S3 was held up by CableLabs certification, not software development at TiVo.

And you know this how?

There's nothing to prove this.

TiVo shipped Series3 when it was ready. Nothing 'held it up' except for 'it wasn't ready yet'. Even if it WAS outside certification, TiVo couldn't quite be adding features (ie: messing with the code base) while being certified! You have to lock down the feature set/code base sometime!

[tube013]

I have mapped QAM channels to numbers numerous times under Mythtv. It has ALWAYS been tedious, it is now way better than in the past, but still tedious. In the past it meant manual database changes.. now... You do a channel scan, and then flip through the stations, watching live tv and bring up a channel editing menu and enter the details (if you already have guide data for a line up set up from zap2it, you can just enter a channel number and it will look up the rest from the guide info). The problem is that unless the channel has a watermark with the station or network name, identifying every program is very difficult (for me at least) plus half the time you move to a new channel it's in a commercial break, and you have to wait. And then there is the problem that these can all change. In a 48 hour period some of my channels shifted around a little, they stayed on the same freq, but swithched subchannels.

[lemketron]

I have mapped QAM channels to numbers numerous times under Mythtv. It has ALWAYS been tedious, it is now way better than in the past, but still tedious. In the past it meant manual database changes.. now... You do a channel scan, and then flip through the stations, watching live tv and bring up a channel editing menu and enter the details (if you already have guide data for a line up set up from zap2it, you can just enter a channel number and it will look up the rest from the guide info). The problem is that unless the channel has a watermark with the station or network name, identifying every program is very difficult (for me at least) plus half the time you move to a new channel it's in a commercial break, and you have to wait. And then there is the problem that these can all change. In a 48 hour period some of my channels shifted around a little, they stayed on the same freq, but swithched subchannels.
Good points, indeed. Just goes to show that manual mapping is bound to be a PITA.

I wonder why the broadcasters themselves couldn't bury a station ID in the subcarrier or offscreen signal somewhere, like the closed caption data, or the date/time information that some stations broadcast (to automatically set the time on newer VCRs). If they could similarly encode their call sign somewhere, then it would be trivial to map that to the program guide information. Hmmm. Perhaps I should've patented that first, and then sat back and collected licensing fees once everyone figured out that was the way to go... ;)

[cogx]

Good points, indeed. Just goes to show that manual mapping is bound to be a PITA.

I wonder why the broadcasters themselves couldn't bury a station ID in the subcarrier or offscreen signal somewhere, like the closed caption data, or the date/time information that some stations broadcast (to automatically set the time on newer VCRs). If they could similarly encode their call sign somewhere, then it would be trivial to map that to the program guide information. Hmmm. Perhaps I should've patented that first, and then sat back and collected licensing fees once everyone figured out that was the way to go... ;)

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Our TiVos have a data structure for the list of scanned/captured channels.sub-channels. Our TiVos have a data structure for the list of stations associated with the guide data. Our TiVos have a links between the station and the channel.sub-channel. I can find no evidence that *my* cable company has ever moved around the location of the local, unencrypted HD channels, based on AVS forum posts from a year ago, they are still the same today as they were then. All I need is a way to link the station in the existing guide data list to the specific channel.sub-channel. This ain't ocket science folks.

[tube013]

From what I've gleemed from reading info from the development of QAM support in Mythtv, there exists "space" in the QAM signal for inculding channel Identification just like in the 8vsb signal of OTA.. but very few cable operators put the information into the signal.

[John949]

Using my pretty new Tivo S3 to set manual recordings for unmapped HDTV cable channels reminds me of the 80's and programming my VCR. Makes me wonder why I am paying for the Tivo service. Too bad the hardware cannot be separated from the service.

[lemketron]

Using my pretty new Tivo S3 to set manual recordings for unmapped HDTV cable channels reminds me of the 80's and programming my VCR. Makes me wonder why I am paying for the Tivo service. Too bad the hardware cannot be separated from the service.
That's an excellent point! When my free (weak) week of "trial" service expired (six days of which I spent waiting to get a pair of working cable cards, with no QAM mapping), I got a taste of just how useless my $800 box was without service. Yet, as you say, even WITH the service, it's still useless without QAM mapping (or cable cards), especially for anyone who bought this primarily for HD (as in "already own a S1 or S2 box for SD").

If TiVo does not provide QAM channel mapping (regardless of "how hard" it may be -- that's not the customer's concern, and yes I realize they MAY still do it) then it seems like the S3 should not require a "service" contract in order to simply function as a 1980's vintage VCR.

Related to this is the annoying point that a month to month service activation requires a one-year contract. What's up with that? I thought that only applied when hardware was subsidized -- free, or with an activation rebate? Did I miss the activation rebate offer for my S3 somewhere? If not, then I paid $800 for this hardware, which is not unlike buying a cell phone sans phone subsidy (discount). Given that, why on earth do I have to commit to a one-year contract or pay a cancellation fee (which, ironically, is higher than the cost of a full year of service since this is my second box) if I should cancel too early? :confused:

Sometimes it's really hard to figure out just what drives the goofy decisions and policies companies make us live with...

[Phantom Gremlin]

Sometimes it's really hard to figure out just what drives the goofy decisions and policies companies make us live with...
What's hard to figure out? Unlike when TiVo the company first started and it was new, revolutionary, and cool, two simple words can describe TiVo the company in 2006:

incompetent & greedy

[m_jonis]

Okay I'm a bit confused as to why QAM mapping is needed.

Granted, I don't have a Series 3, but TW Albany sends the locals (HD) unencrypted. The channels appear to be the same number regardless. So if you rent a STB from TW, our local NBC is channel 1813. If you're using the QAM in your TV (at least on mine), it's channel 18-13 (the TV doesn't "do" 4 digit numbers like the STB does). But if you were to type in "1813" it would change to the proper channel. It just shows up as 18-13 on the TV.

Or is that the issue? Where the S3 doesn't think that "18-13" is the same as: 1813?

Or am I missing something?

[TonyD79]

You are missing a lot.

Some cable companies do what you seem to say they are doing. It sounds strange. First I've heard of that one.

Most cable companies put the channels on whatever QAM is available and it has no numeric corrleation. Example: 2.1 is on Channel 210 thru the cable box but is probably on 117.1 or something like that. Comcast, in particular, moves the QAM channel around a lot. As much as every other day. In the five days between my TV installation and my cable box installation in July, I had to rescan my channels 3 times.

Some companies actually put 2.1 on 2.1 and it shows up that way.

There are lots of variations and many cablecos (including the one TiVo) is working closest with that move stuff around (probably load balancing of some type).

Because of all the variations, TiVo probably just decided to let the cable card do the work. So, if 1% of the users would want to map QAM channels, the reality is that a fraction of THEM would be able to do it without changing it over and over again. Now, do you think TiVo wants to handle *those* calls?

[smark]

I think this is misleading.

b) allow ordering PPV over the internet. PPV is doubtlessly where the money is. VOD is more of a loss-leader and/or TiVo competitor.


LOL

[John949]

Or am I missing something?

Yes.

The S3 has no problem tuning the clear QAM HD channels. You can view, pause, rewind, fast forward, etc on these channels. You can also arrange for a manual recording of these channels. But, if you want to schedule a season pass or use a wish list to record shows on these HD channels you are out of luck. If you want to use the guide to see what is on these channels you are out of luck.

What I do is use the guide to see what is playing on analog channel 5 and then remember that channel 5 is broadcast in HD on channel 86.2 and then change to channel 86.2 to see the program in HD. Not what I would call a Tivo user friendly experience.

[dahnb]

I live in Santa Cruz, CA. Comcast dose not have an ABC HD feed available on their motorola box. Call or email them & they say ABC HD is unavailable due to "negotiation issues". Whatever!
When I perform a digital channel scan with my Panasonic HD tv, I get ABC in glorious HD; I just can't record it!
That's why QAM should be on the S3. I could use the antenna input to get the "unavailable" ABC HD broadcast & be able to TiVo it.

[Roderigo]

I live in Santa Cruz, CA. Comcast dose not have an ABC HD feed available on their motorola box. Call or email them & they say ABC HD is unavailable due to "negotiation issues". Whatever!
When I perform a digital channel scan with my Panasonic HD tv, I get ABC in glorious HD; I just can't record it!

I'm on this headend as well. It annoys me that they have KGO & KNTV "on the wire" but you can't get at it w/ their box (and thus, with the cablecard as well). You got someone to tell you it was because of negotiation issues? Usually the CSRs are just confused that you can get it at all.

[vstone]

When my S3 scans the cable system without a CC installed I get a bunch of channels labeled 0. Sounds like that is not what most folk are seeing.

[keenanSR]

Does anyone know if the S3 TiVo will acknowledge PSIP data in the unencrypted QAM streams?

My cable company (Cox) provides the PSIP data in the stream. My HDTV is smart enough to insert the unencrypted QAM HD channel into the lineup. So when I channel surf its 3 (NBC), 3-1 (NBC HD), 3-2 (NBC WX), 4, 5, 5-1,.... etc.
Yes, at least to the degree that it will use the channel mapping info. On my Comcast system clear-QAM HD local channels are mapped to their OTA equivalents. For example, Ch 2.1 OTA is listed next to Ch 2.1 cable---this channel is listed at Ch 702 with the CableCARD being used, without the card it lists right where it should be 2.1, which tells me that Comcast is sending the PSIP info for the station, they're just not sending any guide data.

Now, it may not be working on all cable systems, but it does on mine. If your TV maps them correctly, then the S3 probably will as well. My Mits TV mapped them as your's does also.

[keenanSR]

You are missing a lot.

Some cable companies do what you seem to say they are doing. It sounds strange. First I've heard of that one.

Most cable companies put the channels on whatever QAM is available and it has no numeric corrleation. Example: 2.1 is on Channel 210 thru the cable box but is probably on 117.1 or something like that. Comcast, in particular, moves the QAM channel around a lot. As much as every other day. In the five days between my TV installation and my cable box installation in July, I had to rescan my channels 3 times.

Some companies actually put 2.1 on 2.1 and it shows up that way.

There are lots of variations and many cablecos (including the one TiVo) is working closest with that move stuff around (probably load balancing of some type).

Because of all the variations, TiVo probably just decided to let the cable card do the work. So, if 1% of the users would want to map QAM channels, the reality is that a fraction of THEM would be able to do it without changing it over and over again. Now, do you think TiVo wants to handle *those* calls?

As far as I can tell, the S3 is working properly--if the cableco is sending the PSIP info for the channel in question then the S3 will map it to the correct channel number. What's not being sent apparently is the program information data, the cablecos have probably stripped it from the signal.

[cwoody222]

I live in Santa Cruz, CA. Comcast dose not have an ABC HD feed available on their motorola box. Call or email them & they say ABC HD is unavailable due to "negotiation issues". Whatever!
When I perform a digital channel scan with my Panasonic HD tv, I get ABC in glorious HD; I just can't record it!
That's why QAM should be on the S3. I could use the antenna input to get the "unavailable" ABC HD broadcast & be able to TiVo it.

QAM is unencrypted digital cable. If your Comcast doesn't have the local ABC affiliate in HD available via box it won't be available via QAM either.

If you can pick up the local ABC in HD via antenna then just get an antenna and plug that into the S3 along with using cable for the other HD locals.

[m_jonis]

Yes.

The S3 has no problem tuning the clear QAM HD channels. You can view, pause, rewind, fast forward, etc on these channels. You can also arrange for a manual recording of these channels. But, if you want to schedule a season pass or use a wish list to record shows on these HD channels you are out of luck. If you want to use the guide to see what is on these channels you are out of luck.

What I do is use the guide to see what is playing on analog channel 5 and then remember that channel 5 is broadcast in HD on channel 86.2 and then change to channel 86.2 to see the program in HD. Not what I would call a Tivo user friendly experience.


Holy crap! That sucks big time. My "HD Cable Ready TV" can see what stations, etc. is on my QAM channels (and I've not even setup the POS called TV Guide).

Wow. I am so amazed that Tivo released this unit with so many missing features.

Although, I suppose if you are already using a CC in the Series 3, the QAM issue is a moot point because you have to use a second CC if you want to record QAM as well, at which point, may as well just use both CC with your digital cable, right?

Now for those people with JUST OTA, then I guess they're really screwed.

Glad I'm not getting a Series 3 (unless TTG and MRV is ever allowed by cable labs).

$800 and it can't even let you use the "tivo features" that everyone loves for QAM channels? Eeesh

[jsmeeker]

how are people with just OTA screwed?

[Saxion]

And you know this how? There's nothing to prove this. TiVo shipped Series3 when it was ready. Nothing 'held it up'Well, when I saw the S3 at CES 2006, it was being demoed and looked feature-complete (not surprising since they were talking up the S3 at CES 2005!). But when I asked about CableLabs cert, I was told that wasn't going to happen for a while. Seemed like a long pole in the tent. It doesn't really matter to this thread anyway...the point is that TiVo had a lot of time to work on the S3, since pretty much everyone agrees that the S3 is anything but early. :)

I'm not even sure what your point is anymore...on the one hand you say that manual channel mapping will never happen because it isn't user friendly, on the other hand you argue there wasn't enough time to implement such a feature because the S3 had no delays, feature set needed to be locked down for certification, etc. So which is it? Or are you just being argumentative? :rolleyes:

By the way, you've made some pretty strong statements: "Not gonna happen", "Products don't incorporate features for 1% of the users", "99% of users don't know what the heck QAM is", etc. You appear to be a TiVo employee/insider; is that true? How do you know their product plans? Where are you getting your 1% data from?

I disagree that manual channel mapping has to be difficult or confusing. It isn't even uncommon...HTPCs and the Sony DVRs have offered such a feature for a long time now. This isn't rocket science, and its absense is a deal-breaker for a sizeable group of people, judging by the response. Why do you appear to want to argue against a useful feature? What harm would it do to you to see this feature added?

[DJRobX]

Until they go two way, CableCARD means we can't order PPV or On Demand. So no they don't love them.

[btwyx]

Until they go two way, CableCARD means we can't order PPV or On Demand. So no they don't love them.Its possible to do PPV without 2 way cards, DirecTV demonstrate that, they just have no interest in taking my money.

[cwoody222]

Well, when I saw the S3 at CES 2006, it was being demoed and looked feature-complete (not surprising since they were talking up the S3 at CES 2005!). But when I asked about CableLabs cert, I was told that wasn't going to happen for a while. Seemed like a long pole in the tent. It doesn't really matter to this thread anyway...the point is that TiVo had a lot of time to work on the S3, since pretty much everyone agrees that the S3 is anything but early. :)

I'm not even sure what your point is anymore...on the one hand you say that manual channel mapping will never happen because it isn't user friendly, on the other hand you argue there wasn't enough time to implement such a feature because the S3 had no delays, feature set needed to be locked down for certification, etc. So which is it? Or are you just being argumentative? :rolleyes:

By the way, you've made some pretty strong statements: "Not gonna happen", "Products don't incorporate features for 1% of the users", "99% of users don't know what the heck QAM is", etc. You appear to be a TiVo employee/insider; is that true? How do you know their product plans? Where are you getting your 1% data from?

I disagree that manual channel mapping has to be difficult or confusing. It isn't even uncommon...HTPCs and the Sony DVRs have offered such a feature for a long time now. This isn't rocket science, and its absense is a deal-breaker for a sizeable group of people, judging by the response. Why do you appear to want to argue against a useful feature? What harm would it do to you to see this feature added?

The TiVo Series3 received CableLabs certification in April.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3916424&&#post3916424

They've had plenty of time to add a QAM mapping if they wanted to.

That's why I don't think it's gonna happen... 'cause they don't want to.

(not exactly that they don't "want to" but they've deemed that the resources towards such a feature wouldn't yield enough of a return)


PS I would love it if they added such a feature; more features are good. I just don't want people to get all excited about such new functionalities thinking they're around the corner because TiVo comes here and says they're working on it for a possible future release.

I just don't see their past history leading to any confidence in such a feature being added anytime soon.

[yunlin12]

Is there anyway to program your own cable card to do the QAM mapping?

[cwoody222]

Not sure what you mean by "your own" cable card. But no.

[m_jonis]

how are people with just OTA screwed?

If you can't do QAM mapping, then it's quite possible your local OTA HD channels are "odd" like 112.3 or something. Therefore, the Tivo doesn't have any guide data, so unless you want to record something manually (at least according to the other posts in this thread), you just spend $800 on a "VCR". No season pass, etc.

[keenanSR]

If you can't do QAM mapping, then it's quite possible your local OTA HD channels are "odd" like 112.3 or something. Therefore, the Tivo doesn't have any guide data, so unless you want to record something manually (at least according to the other posts in this thread), you just spend $800 on a "VCR". No season pass, etc.
OTA channels will never have "odd" channel numbers like that. They will either be the actual RF VHF/UHF channel the station is broadcasting on, or if PSIP is being used properly, the remapped channel--usually the channel the station has been identified with since before the digital conversion to the ATSC format.

[megazone]

If you can't do QAM mapping, then it's quite possible your local OTA HD channels are "odd" like 112.3 or something.Actually, no, that is NOT possible at all. OTA channels are on fixed frequencies assigned by the FCC and guide data is just fine for them. There is no mapping to do like with digital cable.

[JDguy]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked here: Cable channel maps change quite frequently! Daily even. Are you going to do this remapping everytime the channel maps change?

[cwoody222]

Exactly! If TiVo implimented a re-mapping feature and then cable co's starting changing them all the time (not for any nefarious reason, just as part of their regular business), TiVo would look like it didn't work. TiVo would take phone calls. Sure, TiVo could tell customers to call their service provider but that's not a good customer service answer for TiVo.

Which is why TiVo offers to handle lineup changes themselves instead of just referring users to Zap2It themselves.

There's too many factors here that TiVo can't control. All of which CAN be controlled by a CableCARD which is exactly why TiVo is requiring a CableCARD to map QAM channels.

[cheneyp]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked here: Cable channel maps change quite frequently! Daily even. Are you going to do this remapping everytime the channel maps change?

My cable QAM channels have been mapped to the same place for the last 18 months. Actually, the analog channels have changed order twice since then. I assume TiVo has to accomodate these changes....

[MScottC]

My cable QAM channels have been mapped to the same place for the last 18 months. Actually, the analog channels have changed order twice since then. I assume TiVo has to accomodate these changes....

That my be true, however they have to publicize the analog channel changes since viewers without a cable box need to know what channel to tune into. There is NO need to notify the typical customer of QAM changes as the cablebox (or in our case, the cablecard) deals with the change transparently to the viewer. The would however notify the viewer if the "cablebox" channel changed for a perticular station/network.

[cheneyp]

That my be true, however they have to publicize the analog channel changes since viewers without a cable box need to know what channel to tune into. There is NO need to notify the typical customer of QAM changes as the cablebox (or in our case, the cablecard) deals with the change transparently to the viewer. The would however notify the viewer if the "cablebox" channel changed for a perticular station/network.

True enough but if I was able to remap the QAM channel to one with guide data originally, then I'd be able to do it again myself if the mapping changed - would be nice to have this as an option anyway.

My issue is that to get a cablecard, I have to add about $25/month to my cable service to get to the digital plus the HD tier (and so far I am happy with network HD)....

[MScottC]

Don't get me wrong, I too am for manual QAM mapping. I just think that perhaps the TiVo designers realize this is something that will screw up a very large percentage of their users if left out in the open. Think of it like hacking in a larger HD. Techheads know it can be done, and TiVo doesn't discourage it. But they DON'T market it as a feature. As something an advanced user can find, and use, knowing the downsides, I think QAM mapping would be a great idea.

[cogx]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked here: Cable channel maps change quite frequently! Daily even. Are you going to do this remapping everytime the channel maps change?

You have direct evidence that your cable company does that to their re-broadcasted local DTV stations, moves their channel frequencies every day or even every month or year?? Whoa.

My cable company, I know for a certainty, has kept the frequencies for our local DTV stations the same for over a year now and I suspect they will be that way for another year, maybe two, perhaps longer. I can't think of any reason a cable engineer would come in each day and actually change channel frequencies, unless they are trying to somehow mess with users who have the ability to tune in non-encrypted ("clear") QAM stations with their own tuner cards or STBs. I'm betting you have the only cable company that does that, sorry.

The rest of us simply need to have a link/pointer/association from a channel *already* stored in the channel list on a given TiVo to a station *already* stored in the guide data on a given TiVo. Now, maybe the TiVo programmers really fouled up their code to the point where this is impossible, but you what, I seriously doubt that. It shouldn't take more than 5 seconds or so to make such an association.

Yes, I agree, we do not want to deluge their support lines with our individual requests, which is why we S3 owners just need a simple interface to allow us to do that ourselves. Hey, if *we* have to do it each day, so what, it is our time, we are *PAYING* for the guide data, what does it matter to TiVo if we want to spend each morning making sure the channel-to-station links are working?

All of these arguments about "user experience" are absurd. Those who are technologically incompetent have no clue what we are talking about here in the first place and won't be contacting TiVo about it. Those of us who know what we are doing and just want the ability to do something which *should* be trivial to do and just want the ability to do it ourselves. That's all.

[cogx]

My cable QAM channels have been mapped to the same place for the last 18 months. Actually, the analog channels have changed order twice since then. I assume TiVo has to accomodate these changes....

Same here.

Think about it, what reason would there be to continually change the channel frequencies of the stations? Please, someone who works at a cable company and does it, enlighten us, perhaps there is actually a good reason. My cable company hasn't felt the need, but maybe they are incompetent?

Hmm, I think I'll go in every Friday from now on and change my file server share names, just, you know, because I can. Sounds like a good plan to me. :rolleyes:

[cogx]

QAM is unencrypted digital cable. If your Comcast doesn't have the local ABC affiliate in HD available via box it won't be available via QAM either.

If you can pick up the local ABC in HD via antenna then just get an antenna and plug that into the S3 along with using cable for the other HD locals.

Well, QAM is just a modulation scheme and nearly all of the digital cable channels a tuner will find will in fact be encrypted, as they will be channels one has to pay for. Re-broadcasted DTV stations will not be encrypted, however, so if one has their own digital tuner (like the S3) they will be able to watch those channels without the cable company's own STB, cable card, or a digital cable fee.

The issue in this thread is why can't we just have a link from the scanned-in non-encrypted digital channels to stations which already exist in our guide data?

On the surface, from a programmer's point of view, this *should* be a trivial thing, a pointer, link, association, whatever you call it, depending on what the underlying data structures are. Given that this is the whole point of a DVR in the first place, be it the cable company's STB or a TiVo, unless a TiVo programmer sets the record straight here, I will maintain it is a simple thing to do.
(Click, click, click) 101-2 -> KXYZ-DT

Hey, KXYZ-DT is now at channel 100-4 today all of a sudden, hmm, strange, those pesky cable engineers. Oh well, let me fix that (click, click, click)
100-4 -> KXYZ-DT. There we go. Bingo.

Now, whether or not there are non-technical reasons to not allow it, well, those are meaningless to me. If it is technically possible, allow those of us who want to take the responsibility to do it ourselves do it.

If it really is not technically possible, if there is some poorly written code (highly unlikely), well, I guess at least fess up to it and we'll ponder the poor $800 purchasing decision and weep.

[cogx]

Don't get me wrong, I too am for manual QAM mapping. I just think that perhaps the TiVo designers realize this is something that will screw up a very large percentage of their users if left out in the open. Think of it like hacking in a larger HD. Techheads know it can be done, and TiVo doesn't discourage it. But they DON'T market it as a feature. As something an advanced user can find, and use, knowing the downsides, I think QAM mapping would be a great idea.

Except, all we are talking about are the SCANNED stations, the ones listed with
an * in the channel list screen. You wouldn't be able to change the guide data station associations for the channels listed as part of the guide data setup process.

Just the "*" channels which you are free to even DELETE from the channel list screen.

Simply modify that channel list screen to let a person associate an EXISTING station in the guide list to one of those * stations, that's all we need and everyone is happy. No cablecards, no muss, no fuss. If the user associates Bravo with the channel KXYZ-DT is on, hey, that's their fault, just like every user can go in and change the guide data to match some other city if they were stupid enough to do that.

That's the same thing we are talking about. The "user" already has a way to screw up the guide data to the point of making TiVo worthless... why doesn't anyone mention THAT? What about all THOSE support calls.

Oh, look, I have three recordings on 102-8, two on 102-4, and one on 101-1. Good times, this $800 DVR is sooo much more sophisticated than my $29 Goldstar VCR.

[keenanSR]

From my brief time with the S3 before I had the CCs installed, the S3 does in fact do what people are asking for here, remap local stations to their OTA equivalent channel number. The problem appears to be that not all cablcos are passing the PSIP data with their QAM modulated signal. On top of that, the stations themselves must use PSIP properly. If the PSIP is not being sent by the cablecos it will result in missing any guide data, or program information. The cablecos may be stripping that out, or the stations themselves may not even be sending it, or, which I suspect is really the case, the S3 is not utilizing the PSIP program/guide data being sent along with the PSIP channel number.

Pre-CCs, my S3 would remap all the local stations to their correct channel. What was missing is the program info for the station. I know this because with my QAM equipped Mits display it also re-mapped the QAM encoded local stations to their OTA channel equivalents, and it also had guide data, although the data was rather suspect and not all the stations had valid data. This may be the reason why it's not available with the S3. Once all the broadcast stations shutdown analog and are fully running on their digital signals I would hope that they would be using the PISP properly by including not only remapped channel number, but valid guide/program info data. At that point I would also hope that it's something that TiVo can "turn on" with the S3.

This may also have something to do with the fact that we pay a monthly fee for the service from TiVo, which of course is--guide data--if the S3 were enabled to use the guide data sent with the PSIP from the local stations through QAM cable, we wouldn't need the TiVo service.

Just some thoughts anyhow.

[cwoody222]

I would imagine that the cable co's stripping out PSIP data is more likely that local affiliates not sending it. Because local affiliates would NEED to send it to be picked up by OTA whereas cable co's would have zero value in sending it to the customer.

As far as the program data. If the TiVo is getting it (again, I'd think the cable co stripped it out) they have no reason to use it since they get it from Zap2It.com.

[moyekj]

keenanSR, what is desired is not for Tivo to use PSIP information for guide information. Merely we need a simple means of mapping scanned digital stations to digital lineup. As it is right now the S3 won't even let you specify a digital cable lineup for guide data without using CableCard. So that needs to be enabled along with capability of manually mapping scanned channel/sub-channel (with or without PSIP information) to guide channel. There's a lot of fuss being made about QAM channels moving around all the time which I think could be true in some headends but at least for my headend the HD locals have been fixed on the same RF sub-channel for almost 2 years now - I have a PC HDTV QAM tuner from which I record these channels which I have not had to change.

[keenanSR]

keenanSR, what is desired is not for Tivo to use PSIP information for guide information. Merely we need a simple means of mapping scanned digital stations to digital lineup. As it is right now the S3 won't even let you specify a digital cable lineup for guide data without using CableCard. So that needs to be enabled along with capability of manually mapping scanned channel/sub-channel (with or without PSIP information) to guide channel. There's a lot of fuss being made about QAM channels moving around all the time which I think could be true in some headends but at least for my headend the HD locals have been fixed on the same RF sub-channel for almost 2 years now - I have a PC HDTV QAM tuner from which I record these channels which I have not had to change.
I think we are saying the same thing. Instead of using the provided PSIP info from the cableco for channel mapping, which does work as long as the cableco is sending it, you want the ability to assign the mapping yourself. I'm not sure that we'll ever see that from TiVo, or even if the tuner/software is capable of it.

What I'm saying is that if proper PSIP is being sent by the station(including accurate program info), and the cableco is passing it along, then the current setup does work, except that the TiVo appears to be stripping the guide data.

[watstein]

I have Comcast in Sacramento and only get local programming because my HomeOwners association doesn't allow antenna's so comcast doesn't charge me for cable. My HDTV's have QAM so I get all my local channels in HD but from what I am reading I would have to get a cable card to use a S3 Tivo. How can I do that when Comcast doesn't charge me. Thanks

[jfh3]

Exactly! If TiVo implimented a re-mapping feature and then cable co's starting changing them all the time (not for any nefarious reason, just as part of their regular business), TiVo would look like it didn't work. TiVo would take phone calls. Sure, TiVo could tell customers to call their service provider but that's not a good customer service answer for TiVo.

Which is why TiVo offers to handle lineup changes themselves instead of just referring users to Zap2It themselves.

There's too many factors here that TiVo can't control. All of which CAN be controlled by a CableCARD which is exactly why TiVo is requiring a CableCARD to map QAM channels.

It is absolutely amazing how negative you are.

QAM mapping would be an easy feature to use for those that understand the concept. It is reasonable to expect that those users would understand the issues/risks. For the channels most are going to use (digital broadcast networks), the assignments rarely change.

[jfh3]

All of these arguments about "user experience" are absurd. Those who are technologically incompetent have no clue what we are talking about here in the first place and won't be contacting TiVo about it. Those of us who know what we are doing and just want the ability to do something which *should* be trivial to do and just want the ability to do it ourselves. That's all.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! :up: :up: :up:

Exactly!

[snathanb]

What gets me is that it doesn't even seem hard for TiVo to map these channels automatically.

Example: Fox is on analog 2. Guess what digital channel 2-1 is? Clue: it's a cute animal with red fur.

It's not 2-1.. that's just a PSIP remap for viewer convenience. It can't be on 2, since that is the frequency the Analog station is using.

[Saxion]

My cable QAM channels have been mapped to the same place for the last 18 months.Same here. I suspect that this whole "my cable co remaps QAM every day" theory is pure myth. Can anyone say with certainty that on their cable system, the QAM mapping of unencrypted local HD (not the encrypted stuff) changes more than, say, annually?

[btwyx]

QAM mapping would be an easy feature to use for those that understand the concept. It is reasonable to expect that those users would understand the issues/risks. You expect users to be reasonable about this? I wouldn't want to support this feature, you'd have users screaming at you when they didn't understand what to do, and everytime the line up was changed. (Which I hear happens pretty frequently on my system.)

Its a particularly pointless thing to do when there's a technology which will do it automatically. That's cable card, this machine is designed to work OTA or with cable cards.

[keenanSR]

Support issues for the genpop are certainly a consideration, but it would be nice if TiVo provided a "switch" to enable guide/program info for those users that can make use of it.

Down the line maybe some enterprising soul can come up with an unofficial hack to allow the data through. That would probably be the most likely scenario as I can't see TiVo going through the headache of supporting a function that could be very hit or miss depending on the cable system, and even the stations themselves.

[jfh3]

You expect users to be reasonable about this? I wouldn't want to support this feature, you'd have users screaming at you when they didn't understand what to do, and everytime the line up was changed. (Which I hear happens pretty frequently on my system.)

Its a particularly pointless thing to do when there's a technology which will do it automatically. That's cable card, this machine is designed to work OTA or with cable cards.

The problem with that argument is that most cable companies won't let you have cable cards if you don't have a digital package. Plenty of people (myself included) would use a Series 3 with basic cable just to get the digital version of the 4 major networks. And what most cable companies want for an additional "digital outlet" is almost as much as basic/lifeline cable.

I'd rather use OTA, but that's not a realistic option in Colorado and won't likely be for years.

[rainwater]

I am not buying the argument that adding channel mapping is too hard for users to understand. The Sony HD box can do channel mapping and it is not confusing as some people will here say it is.

[Robo1234]

I have to agree sony Samsung and others all support ATSC channels and Qam in the clear and the mapping is not hard at all......at least let us tune in these channels and let the trib guide info map them if the info is avail our system has all the HD channels listed and In clear ASTC 95 - 125 ........

[moyekj]

I don't buy the 'hard to use' argument either. I think the decision was mostly at Marketing level. The S3 by Tivo's own admission targets the high end market - not the penny-pinching users (like me and others posting here) who do not want to subscribe to digital cable and rent cablecards for the privilege of mostly recording the unencrypted HD local re-transmissions. I don't think Tivo envisioned anyone considering buying the S3 (at least initially) would be penny-pinching at that level.

P.S. Probably penny-pinching is not the best term to use - I could certainly afford to pay for digital cable + cable cards etc, but knowing that the HD local channels I care about are unencrypted I wouldn't be comfortable paying for all the other channels in digital lineup I don't care about.

[m_jonis]

Actually, no, that is NOT possible at all. OTA channels are on fixed frequencies assigned by the FCC and guide data is just fine for them. There is no mapping to do like with digital cable.

Is this true even with CC? I was under the impression that the minute you put a CC into the S3, you lost the abiliy to do OTA "directly" but rather had to go through the CC.

So if you wanted to record Cable (via CC) and "OTA", you had to buy/rent two CC. So does that then make the OTA use the CC so the QAM mapping comes into play? Or does it still use the ATSC OTA tuner and not have the problem?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Is this true even with CC? I was under the impression that the minute you put a CC into the S3, you lost the abiliy to do OTA "directly" but rather had to go through the CC.

So if you wanted to record Cable (via CC) and "OTA", you had to buy/rent two CC. So does that then make the OTA use the CC so the QAM mapping comes into play? Or does it still use the ATSC OTA tuner and not have the problem?

OTA has no reason to go through the CableCARD. The CableCARD is a conditional access device, OTA is in-the-clear.

QAM is a modulation scheme. ATSC doesn't use it (it uses 8VSB modulation) so no, QAM mapping would never apply to OTA.

[mattack]

My issue is that to get a cablecard, I have to add about $25/month to my cable service to get to the digital plus the HD tier (and so far I am happy with network HD)....

Wait, did you TRY to get CableCards without 'upgrading' to digital cable?

Even though some people had to play shenanigans -- order digital cable, cancel it, keep cablecards (of course be totally honest with cable company that you are keeping them), they were able to have cablecards with no 'digital' cable.

[cwoody222]

You can use an antenna to record OTA with zero, 1 or 2 cable cards in the unit.

(however, if 1 card only is inserted the unit reverts to single-tuner mode... but it can record from cable or OTA)

QAM is unencrypted digital cable and has nothing to do at all with OTA ATSC signals. Also, therefore, CableCARDs are a method to decrypt encrypted digital signals and also have nothing to do with ATSC OTA signals.

[Dajad]

I have mapped QAM channels to numbers numerous times under Mythtv. It has ALWAYS been tedious, it is now way better than in the past, but still tedious. In the past it meant manual database changes.. now... You do a channel scan, and then flip through the stations, watching live tv and bring up a channel editing menu and enter the details (if you already have guide data for a line up set up from zap2it, you can just enter a channel number and it will look up the rest from the guide info). The problem is that unless the channel has a watermark with the station or network name, identifying every program is very difficult (for me at least) plus half the time you move to a new channel it's in a commercial break, and you have to wait. And then there is the problem that these can all change. In a 48 hour period some of my channels shifted around a little, they stayed on the same freq, but swithched subchannels.

I have an SFA 8300HD. PVR With help from others (see this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4422161&&#post4422161) ), I figured out how to get into the diagnostics screen and determine EXACTLY which channels are in-the-clear. Certainly anyone switching from a cablebox to an S3 could do the same thing, list the channels and use this data to manually set-up the line-ups. It would be a relative snap for me to do now.

...Dale

[Dark Helmet]

I have Comcast in Sacramento and only get local programming because my HomeOwners association doesn't allow antenna's so comcast doesn't charge me for cable. My HDTV's have QAM so I get all my local channels in HD but from what I am reading I would have to get a cable card to use a S3 Tivo. How can I do that when Comcast doesn't charge me. Thanks

You need to sic the FCC on your bastard homeowner's association; they can't do that ****. With some limitations, federal law allows you to put an antenna or satellite dish on your property. Here's a reference.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Give that homeowner's association hell, and I hope those tinpot dictators rot in the same circle of hell reserved for tobacco company lawyers.

[Saxion]

Give that homeowner's association hell, and I hope those tinpot dictators rot in the same circle of hell reserved for tobacco company lawyers.Don't hold back...tell us how you really feel. :D Seriously, Dark Helmet is right...as long as you have a reasonable place to mount it (your own balcony or what not), you have a legal right to put up an antenna or sat dish. My problem is I live in a canyon, and an antenna won't do me any good.Wait, did you TRY to get CableCards without 'upgrading' to digital cable? Even though some people had to play shenanigans -- order digital cable, cancel it, keep cablecards (of course be totally honest with cable company that you are keeping them), they were able to have cablecards with no 'digital' cable.Now this is interesting. So there are cases where the cable co didn't require the CableCards be returned? When digital service was deactivated, how did the cards behave...did they attempt to block access to HD locals, or hide the channel mapping in any way? Do you have a link to a thread for this? Thanks a ton mattack.

[mattack]

So there are cases where the cable co didn't require the CableCards be returned? When digital service was deactivated, how did the cards behave...did they attempt to block access to HD locals, or hide the channel mapping in any way? Do you have a link to a thread for this? Thanks a ton mattack.

I don't have a link, read one of the zillion cable card threads. As I said, some people had to play tricks -- order digital cable, cancel it, keep cable cards.. and then presumably get the cable company to 'hook' the cable cards to the Tivo... but there were people here
that said it worked.

You might be able to just order cable cards separately "for your TV".

[bschott]

Anyone happen to know the QAM-in-the-clear mappings for Comcast in Eastern, PA. I'd love to move the new S3 on the main flat panel tv in prep for HD.

[woodie]

Before I got cablecards , I stumbled across 110-1 StarsHD. I was able to record several movies, using time/channel: Hitchhiker's Guide, Chronicles of Narnia, Herbie, Sky High. The promo ended today, so no more StarsHD. I also noticed that some of the channels QAM-in-the-clear channels are lost when you install the cable card.

I also stumbled across 84-1 UHD that was playing Knight Rider and Quantum Leap. At the time I didn't seem like something I would care about, but now I realize that they show Battlestar Galactica in HD.

I have limited basic + digital classic (no premium channels), so I'm tempted to yank my cards this weekend, and see if I can record the Battlestar Galactica Special in HD.

[Blackforge]

Heck I wished they'd let you use guide data on channels that have the same virtual mapping whether the frequency is different or not. My local mom & pop cable company rebroadcasts the OTA as ATSC signal over their cable line on a different frequency than the standard OTA. However, the virtual channels are the same and its killing me! I mean, the channels, they're right there. They show up as duplicates after the setup and a channel scan, but they're the same virtual channels just a different frequency. Why can't I use the guide data!? :(

Also my cable company offers some unencrypted QAM channels and do not have any digital boxes or cablecards. Requires a QAM tuner like I have, yet I can't get guide data. What is offered on them is a lot less important to me.

[ivorygate]

So, obviously everyone on this forum has stated what I found out with my S3, as well, that the station guide doesn't work for digital cable channels without a CableCARD, even though I was able to get them scanned in just fine and they always work and every day the channels are what they were the previous day.

But what about with a CableCARD? I was just told by TiVo support that even with a cable CableCARD they don't support "programming for the rebroadcast channels" because they may "change without notice". They seem to be telling me that the guide data doesn't work for digital cable at all, even with a CableCARD?????

Also, every reply (six now) I get they keep harping on "rebroadcast channels", they don't support "rebroadcast channels". Um, then what the hell is basic cable made mostly of and if they don't support "rebroadcast channels" then how is it that I get programming info for ANY local network affiliate stations? In fact, then what the hell is the point of having a TiVo in the first place, if they don't support programming information for local channels through cable? I didn't realize all TiVo owners actually use antennas to get in all their local channels, since apparently "rebroadcast channels" are all evil according to TiVo support.


I also just read something about if you only have one CableCARD installed, the dual tuner aspect of the S3 no longer functions? I don't understand completely, you mean it won't be able to record from both regular cable/antenna and digital cable with only one cable card installed? Or just the obvious that one can only get one tuner to record from digital cable, which makes sense? I'm not sure my cable company will give me two cablecards, if and when they ever get in any in the first place (I'm on a "waiting list").

I have this sinking feeling I got royally ripped off on my S3 purchase. :(

[cwoody222]

I also just read something about if you only have one CableCARD installed, the dual tuner aspect of the S3 no longer functions?

If you have one - and only one - CableCARD installed the Series3 can only record one thing at a time.

It can still record OTA or analog cable or digital cable (including premiums) or QAM channels but it can only record one show at a time. Period.


Presumably this was because it would be confusing to users who wouldn't understand why they couldn't record 1 thing on Showtime and 1 thing on HBO at the same time (since both of those channels are digital channels, both would need it's own CableCARD at the same time).

With the DT Series2 it's a little more straight-forward. "You can record one thing from the box and one thing not from the box. Or two things not from the box."

It gets more complicated with the Series3. "You can record one thing from a digital station or premium channel or QAM channel but then your second program has to be an OTA channel or analog cable channel." Most people don't really know the 'source' of their channels.

Plus, TiVo probably thought the much, much easier solution was "just stick another CARD in the other slot" :)

[jfh3]

But what about with a CableCARD? I was just told by TiVo support that even with a cable CableCARD they don't support "programming for the rebroadcast channels" because they may "change without notice". They seem to be telling me that the guide data doesn't work for digital cable at all, even with a CableCARD?(

No, this is not what they are saying. With CableCARD(s), the mapping is done by the card (e.g. map QAM 17.11 to channel 652).

For some, depending on the local cable company, the card will map the digital version of the analog broadcast to the analog channel number (supporting ADS).

The cable cards do this (logically) by having a table that says "if you ask for channel 652, tune frequency 17.110" and that table is "updated" by the head-end computer when the mappings change (or they should be). If done correctly, those using a cable card would never know (or care) when channel 652 may be mapped to 83.12 instead of 117.11.

The QAM maping fuction talked about here would accomplish the same thing for in-the-clear digital channels, but would require the end user to take action if/when the cable company mappings change.

[kbs]

I was reading the other thread about cableCard law:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=319283

Where someone posted a relevent section of the statute:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.640.htm

According to section (iv), unencrypted cable QAM channels are required to include channel number and textual channel name, as well as 12hours of programming data (PSIP). If this is true, then the Tivo should have no trouble automatically mapping QAM channels to the analog cable channels or OTA channels that match the same name and programming, even if it changes.


(iv) For each digital transport stream that includes one or more

services carried in-the-clear, such transport stream shall include

virtual channel data in-band in the form of ATSC A/65B: ``ATSC Standard:

Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and

Cable (Revision B)'' (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602), when

available from the content provider. With respect to in-band transport:

(A) The data shall, at minimum, describe services carried within the

transport stream carrying the PSIP data itself;

(B) PSIP data describing a twelve-hour time period shall be carried

for each service in the transport stream. This twelve-hour period

corresponds to delivery of the following event information tables: EIT-

0, -1, -2 and -3;

(C) The format of event information data format shall conform to

ATSC A/65B: ``ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for

Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B)'' (incorporated by

reference, see Sec. 76.602);

(D) Each channel shall be identified by a one- or two-part channel

number and a textual channel name;

[Dajad]

The key clause is: "when available from the content provider"

This implies that not all content providers are required to provide such information. If TiVo can't rely on it to be there, since it obviously isn't mandatory, it wouldn't be able to build a foolproof automated mapping system. Though, as you suggest, for the channels that do provide the information, TiVo should be able to automatically map them. It's a start anyway.

...Dale

[kbs]

Agreed, but in this context, the 'content provider' would be the local broadcaster or whomever supplies the feed to Comcast (for example). This statute implies that the cable provider is required to pass along any PSIP supplied by the local broadcaster/feed provider.

My situation: I receive all but one of my local DTV signals over UHF. That last one is my NBC affiliate, over VHF. My indoor antenna doesn't pick up the VHF well, so I don't get it, although Tivo knows its there and gives me guide data. Lets call it channel 11-1. My cable also shows an 11-1, and guess what, its my local NBC affiliate.

So, the question is... does my local NBC channel supply PSIP to Comcast with their feed?

(Do OTA channels include PSIP in their broadcast ATSC sigal as well, or is PSIP a QAM-only thing? Does the Sony HD recorder get its program data over OTA PSIP?)

-kbs

[rainwater]

Agreed, but in this context, the 'content provider' would be the local broadcaster or whomever supplies the feed to Comcast (for example). This statute implies that the cable provider is required to pass along any PSIP supplied by the local broadcaster/feed provider.


I'm not sure about that statute but I can tell you my cable provider (Charter) never provides the PSIP data.

[kbs]

I found another interesting read by searching for PSIP on the EFF website:

http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf#search=%22PSIP%22

I was unable to cut the text from the pdf, but on page 12, section 23, it claims that cable operators are required to carry PSIP data when received from content providers, in conformity with the ATSC A/65B standard.

Also interesting info about CableCards (search for 'POD')

Also, on page 19, section 38, it mentions that CableLabs certification is only required for the initial first model of a unidirectional cable product. Self-certification is sufficient for subsequent models. Which says to me that maybe Tivo could self-certify a Tivo-To-Go enabled Series3 if they wanted to.

-kbs

[kbs]

Oh, and here's another good nugget.

From this webpage: http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/pnp.php
Look at this pdf: http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf

Check out page 44, in Appendix B, section 15.123 "Labeling of Digital Cable Ready Products"

section (b)(3) states that a product cannot be labeled or marketed as cable ready or cable compatible (or otherwise give that impression) unless it implements this feature:
Allowing navigation of channels based on channel information (virtual channel map and source names) provided through the cable system in accordance with ANSI/SCTE 65 2002 "Service Information Delivered Out-of-Band for Digital Cable Television", and/or PSIP enabled navigation.

So, it would seem that the Tivo is required to allow channel navigation and show source names based entirely on information coming from the cable provider.
(I'm not a lawyer, and this is just my interpretation, so feel free to read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.)

-kbs

[dkroboth]

Also, on page 19, section 38, it mentions that CableLabs certification is only required for the initial first model of a unidirectional cable product. Self-certification is sufficient for subsequent models. Which says to me that maybe Tivo could self-certify a Tivo-To-Go enabled Series3 if they wanted to.

-kbs

That's an interesting thought. The released model of the Series 3 was self certified according the CableLabs official list that has been posted on a couple of occations.

[keenanSR]

So, the question is... does my local NBC channel supply PSIP to Comcast with their feed?

(Do OTA channels include PSIP in their broadcast ATSC sigal as well, or is PSIP a QAM-only thing? Does the Sony HD recorder get its program data over OTA PSIP?)

-kbs
Yes and yes, don't know about the Sony. Part of the problem is that many stations are still trying to get their PSIP generators and equipment up to speed. I'd imagine by the time analog is shut off they may/should have it figured out.

For example, in our area, I noticed that KTVU will produce 4 digital channel numbers, two remapped to Ch 2, and two at UHF 56, or whatever channel it is they are actually broadcasting on. That shouldn't be happening if the PSIP is working right.

[cwoody222]

PSIP info being wrong is often just due to local engineerings literally getting a few lines of codes wrong in the datafeed. Not "generators and equipment".

Often, some tuners (MCXP especially) it dependent on very specifically correct PSIP data that can be fixed very easily if a user has a contact at the local station.

As for whether your cable station passes PSIP data in their QAM stream... it depends. But it seems to be unlikely. (if possibly required by law, it's still unlikely)

[moyekj]

PSIP info being wrong is often just due to local engineerings literally getting a few lines of codes wrong in the datafeed. Not "generators and equipment".

Often, some tuners (MCXP especially) it dependent on very specifically correct PSIP data that can be fixed very easily if a user has a contact at the local station.

As for whether your cable station passes PSIP data in their QAM stream... it depends. But it seems to be unlikely. (if possibly required by law, it's still unlikely) Cox Orange County, CA has PSIP on 2 out of 5 OTA re-transmissions they are carrying (NBCHD and CBSHD). The other HD locals have PSIP information when tuning OTA but the information is getting lost in the Cox re-transmission. So the capability to pass it through is definately there but I don't believe it's a necessity at least not at this point. I know this since I have a PC tuner capable of capturing OTA and unencrypted QAM, and analyzing the captures with TSReaderLite can tell you about PSIP information.

[ivorygate]

No, this is not what they are saying. With CableCARD(s), the mapping is done by the card (e.g. map QAM 17.11 to channel 652).

For some, depending on the local cable company, the card will map the digital version of the analog broadcast to the analog channel number (supporting ADS).

The QAM mapping fuction talked about here would accomplish the same thing for in-the-clear digital channels, but would require the end user to take action if/when the cable company mappings change.

Well, I pressed the question again, the reply came back as:

"Unfortunately, rebroadcast stations through cable providers are not supported. When you receive your cable cards the rebroadcast channels will not have guide data."

So... I'm basically being told, don't bother with a CableCARD, because the only reason I'd get one is to get programming guide information for the local network affiliate channels which are passed through unencrypted QAM 256.

What I don't get, though, is how are the rebroadcast stations any different than say History International or Biography digital cable QAM channels? So, the CableCARD won't have guide data for those either?

Seven replies later from TiVo and they are telling me they do not support programming information for anything other than analog cable and antenna-tuned channels, regardless of whether I finally get a CableCARD out of my cable provider or not.

[moyekj]

Seven replies later from TiVo and they are telling me they do not support programming information for anything other than analog cable and antenna-tuned channels, regardless of whether I finally get a CableCARD out of my cable provider or not. That's not correct. Tivo does provide guide listings for digital cable lineup and if you use CableCard the channel numbers will match up to those listings. This thread is talking about not using CableCards, in which case channel numbers will not match up to the digital cable guide channels and a method is needed to manually make the associations.

[ivorygate]

That's not correct. Tivo does provide guide listings for digital cable lineup and if you use CableCard the channel numbers will match up to those listings. This thread is talking about not using CableCards, in which case channel numbers will not match up to the digital cable guide channels and a method is needed to manually make the associations.

Yes, I understand what this thread is talking about. I am just pointing out that the TiVo "agent" replies to my questions about the programming information without a CableCARD (which we all know by now we are out of luck on) led to the reply when I asked, ok, if it doesn't work without a CableCARD, what about with a CableCARD and the reply is that I wouldn't get programming information even WITH a CableCARD. ???? This is TiVo support telling me this.

[yunlin12]

Before I got cablecards , I stumbled across 110-1 StarsHD. I was able to record several movies, using time/channel: Hitchhiker's Guide, Chronicles of Narnia, Herbie, Sky High. The promo ended today, so no more StarsHD. I also noticed that some of the channels QAM-in-the-clear channels are lost when you install the cable card.

I also stumbled across 84-1 UHD that was playing Knight Rider and Quantum Leap. At the time I didn't seem like something I would care about, but now I realize that they show Battlestar Galactica in HD.

I have limited basic + digital classic (no premium channels), so I'm tempted to yank my cards this weekend, and see if I can record the Battlestar Galactica Special in HD.

Have you tried entering the QAM channel while the cable card is in? I read that the Advance button acts as the dash, so am wondering if ebtering "84-1" would tune to it, if the cable card is inserted. Hoping that this would work so don't have to pull the CC and redo the guided setup each time.

Edit: Just got home and tried this myself. No go. When the cards are in, you can not tune a QAM channel directly by enter XX-X channel number. However, I was able to:

remove the cards
do a channel scan
add the scanned channels
flip through the QAM channels
remove the scanned channels
pop the cards back in
return to my normal cable viewing without having to redo guided setup, still have HBO.

BTW, in San Jose, UHD does not seem to be carried anywhere. 84-1 is carrying some local SD station.

[cwoody222]

Just FYI:

Time Warner locally just changed their QAM channels. Took away HDNet and HDNet Movies, added Toon Disney, and moved NBC, CBS and PBS.

So, yes, these channels can - and do - change, without notice. If they were manually "mapped", they'd have to be re-mapped today.

[rainwater]

So, yes, these channels can - and do - change, without notice. If they were manually "mapped", they'd have to be re-mapped today.

So what? Thats not very hard to remap and for 99% of cable systems it rarely changes.

[btwyx]

So what?So what, there's a perfectly good technology to do it automatically for you. So what, users will complain and blame TiVo when the recordings get missed.

[ashu]

Just FYI:

Time Warner locally just changed their QAM channels. Took away HDNet and HDNet Movies, added Toon Disney, and moved NBC, CBS and PBS.

So, yes, these channels can - and do - change, without notice. If they were manually "mapped", they'd have to be re-mapped today.

Sure ... but this was a vestigeal effect of the Adelphia takeover. Comcast and Time Warner HATE Mark Cuban's guts (HDNet owner) and refuse to carry 'em, although Rigas had no such issues. Unlikely QAM shifts will happen too often, but TiVo could throw in a CYA you-check-your-lineups-and-watch-for-changes step to their instructions for QAM mapping.

Did they add DiscoveryHD for your region yet? I'm mollified about the upcoming HDN/HDNMV loss by the fact I'll likely get DiscHD, Universal (yeah, BattGal reruns!), ESPN2HD and TNTHD (yeah, badly mangled aspect ratio movies and sports events) that Adelphia had become too chap to negotiate for an add during their dying days.

[cwoody222]

DiscoveryHD and a few others were added THE DAY after Time Warner took over. However, they never appeared UNencrypted like HDNet did.

[ashu]

DiscoveryHD and a few others were added THE DAY after Time Warner took over. However, they never appeared UNencrypted like HDNet did.

Ahh, I forgot you only had Basic cable.

HDNt was definitely a short-lived freebie you enjoyed for a while, can't 'blame' 'em for cancelling it (not that you are!).

The local Comcast takeover is slower than (s)nails ... some PPV channel logos and some pages in the guide on the HDDVR show Comcast, but it's Adelphia almost everywhere else. Also, I've seen Comcast trucks on house calls.

Still have the Adelphia channels, and none of the new Comcast ones, except one of the local sports networks (FASN? That Baltimore Orioles owned one)

[rainwater]

So what, there's a perfectly good technology to do it automatically for you. So what, users will complain and blame TiVo when the recordings get missed.

I never said it couldn't attempt to do it automatically, but it wouldn't be hard to add a manual mapping feature as well. People who don't know what it is will never use this feature anyway. So the risks are minimal to most users.

[cwoody222]

Ahh, I forgot you only had Basic cable.

HDNt was definitely a short-lived freebie you enjoyed for a while, can't 'blame' 'em for cancelling it (not that you are!).

The local Comcast takeover is slower than (s)nails ... some PPV channel logos and some pages in the guide on the HDDVR show Comcast, but it's Adelphia almost everywhere else. Also, I've seen Comcast trucks on house calls.

Still have the Adelphia channels, and none of the new Comcast ones, except one of the local sports networks (FASN? That Baltimore Orioles owned one)

Not to go OT too far but the transition here was VERY fast. I literally saw TW trucks the day of the switch (and not a minute sooner). Adelphia logos disappeared from on-screen guides that same day too.

[MichaelK]

couple things-

I believe the cable people are required to carry the PSIP channel ID info so as an example WCBSDT shows up as 2-1 no matter what channel they put it on really (just like it's actually on cheannl 56 OTA).

So why can't tivo provide guide data for 2-1 and the PSIP info would take care of mapping for you? I am not certain but isn't the tivo guide data aligning with that channel (or at least it's callsign) anyway. I wonder why it works for OTA PSIP mapping but not QMA PSIP mapping. Guess we'll never know really...

Second- I'd love if TiVo cold have a setting to use the PSIP data instead of the cablecard map. Without a card- my s3 sees the channel as 2-1 just as if i got it from an antenna. WIth a card it follows the cabe lnumbering and is somethign like 165. I'd prefer if it showed up as 2-1. Maybe they could work that in the code if they ever set up manual mapping or enable PSIP mapping for QAM...

[cwoody222]

Cable companies are not required to pass PSIP data in QAM channels.

[keenanSR]

Cable companies are not required to pass PSIP data in QAM channels.
Incorrect. Cable companies are required by the FCC to pass PSIP, but only if provided by the broadcaster. If the station isn't sending it, then there is nothing to pass, and stations are not required to send it for cable feeds.

[MichaelK]

and aren't the stations required to have PSIP in order to comply with atsc standards?

Even if not required they would have to be dump not to. THey loose their branding by not doing so...

[keenanSR]

and aren't the stations required to have PSIP in order to comply with atsc standards?

Even if not required they would have to be dump not to. THey loose their branding by not doing so...
Yes, but for their OTA signal. Cable is not part of the ATSC standard.

Case in point I just learned about over the past few days. KQED, a San Francisco PBS station, provides an HD channel and 4 sub-channels fot OTA viewers. The OTA HD channel only airs from 8pm to 6am and one of the sub-channels is shutdown during that period. All channels, 9.1(HD) plus 4 sub-channels have PSIP info.

On Comcast cable, KQED provides 1 HD channel(same content as 9.1 above) but at a higher bitrate than the OTA signal, plus, 6 sub-channels. None of these channels have PSIP channel ID data, the reasoning being that Comcast remaps the signals to their own channel mapping anyways. Plus, KQED currently doesn't want to spend the extra $50k or so for the PSIP generator and software license.

So for cable, KQED retains it's branding for the HD channel, 709 and all the sub-channels are grouped in an area where the rest of the local stations have their sub-channels.

Essentially, the signals KQED is providing Comcast, which are higher bandwidth and more of them due to the capacity of QAM, are separate really from whatever KQED puts out OTA and not subject to ATSC standards.

This is straight from the regional VP for Comcast in the SF market. It's a bummer for those that use their own QAM tuners as the tuner will map the channel according to the cable RF map instead of the PSIP channel mapping, and that means they could be almost anywhere. Here in my area KQED-HD is on channel 67.3 using my display's QAM tuner and 709 using Comcast equipment.

Oh yeah, not only can the be almost anywhere, but Comcast in this area is known for moving the channels around in their cable mapping on a sporadic basis, you never know where they'll be week to week or month to month.

[btwyx]

On Comcast cable, KQED provides 1 HD channel(same content as 9.1 above) but at a higher bitrate than the OTA signal, plus, 6 sub-channels. I seriously doubt they're at a higher bitrate on my local comcast. When I looked, the QAM channel (117) which had KQED in HD also KGO (the local ABC) in HD, as well as the 4 KQED SD channels and KGO's 2 SD subchannels.

They're stuffing 2 broadcaster's worth into one channel. I'm assuming one QAM channel has the same bandwidth as one 8VSB channel, but may be able to support a higher bitrate.

[MichaelK]

Yes, but for their OTA signal. Cable is not part of the ATSC standard.

Case in point I just learned about over the past few days. KQED, a San Francisco PBS station, provides an HD channel and 4 sub-channels fot OTA viewers. The OTA HD channel only airs from 8pm to 6am and one of the sub-channels is shutdown during that period. All channels, 9.1(HD) plus 4 sub-channels have PSIP info.

On Comcast cable, KQED provides 1 HD channel(same content as 9.1 above) but at a higher bitrate than the OTA signal, plus, 6 sub-channels. None of these channels have PSIP channel ID data, the reasoning being that Comcast remaps the signals to their own channel mapping anyways. Plus, KQED currently doesn't want to spend the extra $50k or so for the PSIP generator and software license.

So for cable, KQED retains it's branding for the HD channel, 709 and all the sub-channels are grouped in an area where the rest of the local stations have their sub-channels.

Essentially, the signals KQED is providing Comcast, which are higher bandwidth and more of them due to the capacity of QAM, are separate really from whatever KQED puts out OTA and not subject to ATSC standards.

This is straight from the regional VP for Comcast in the SF market. It's a bummer for those that use their own QAM tuners as the tuner will map the channel according to the cable RF map instead of the PSIP channel mapping, and that means they could be almost anywhere. Here in my area KQED-HD is on channel 67.3 using my display's QAM tuner and 709 using Comcast equipment.

Oh yeah, not only can the be almost anywhere, but Comcast in this area is known for moving the channels around in their cable mapping on a sporadic basis, you never know where they'll be week to week or month to month.

that's neat.

I'd actually prefer the higher quality signals to the PSIP data.

[MichaelK]

I seriously doubt they're at a higher bitrate on my local comcast. When I looked, the QAM channel (117) which had KQED in HD also KGO (the local ABC) in HD, as well as the 4 KQED SD channels and KGO's 2 SD subchannels.

They're stuffing 2 broadcaster's worth into one channel. I'm assuming one QAM channel has the same bandwidth as one 8VSB channel, but may be able to support a higher bitrate.


6mhz of atsc/8vsb holds 19.2-19.3 mbps. A qam64 6mhz slice holds like 27 and if i recall a QAM 256 channel can hold 48 or 50 or thereabouts. So you can fit 2-2.5 atsc broadcasters in the same space. So they can easily put 2 broadcasters in one (problem comes when they go for 3...)

THere have been reports of that sort of thing in other markets too- I seem to recall a staion in Buffalo doing it also from a post here or at avs. Cable has decent feeds but the OTA looked like crap according to that post.

[MichaelK]

correction - quick search seems to be QAM256 is only 39 or 40 per 6mhz. So they can fit 2 atsc channels with a tiny bit to spare.

[Roderigo]

Second- I'd love if TiVo cold have a setting to use the PSIP data instead of the cablecard map. Without a card- my s3 sees the channel as 2-1 just as if i got it from an antenna. WIth a card it follows the cabe lnumbering and is somethign like 165.
The cablecard spec doesn't allow using in-band PSIP data when the cablecard's inserted.

[c3]

When I looked, the QAM channel (117) which had KQED in HD also KGO (the local ABC) in HD, as well as the 4 KQED SD channels and KGO's 2 SD subchannels.

As of last week, 117 had KGO-HD, KQED-HD, KQED Encore, and 2 of KGO SD. KQED World, Life, and Kids were in channel 91.

[keenanSR]

I seriously doubt they're at a higher bitrate on my local comcast. When I looked, the QAM channel (117) which had KQED in HD also KGO (the local ABC) in HD, as well as the 4 KQED SD channels and KGO's 2 SD subchannels.

They're stuffing 2 broadcaster's worth into one channel. I'm assuming one QAM channel has the same bandwidth as one 8VSB channel, but may be able to support a higher bitrate.
In Santa Rosa KQED-HD shares a QAM256 channel with KGO-HD and KQED-Encore, the rest of the sub-channels, for both stations are located in other slots. Someone in the Comcast thread, who also gets KQED OTA, measured them both and Comcast is in fact getting a higher bitrate signal.

[keenanSR]

correction - quick search seems to be QAM256 is only 39 or 40 per 6mhz. So they can fit 2 atsc channels with a tiny bit to spare.
That's what they do in SF, they'll put 2 HD channels, one 1080i channel with a 720p channel and it leaves a bit of room for the weather radar channels.

[cwoody222]

Incorrect. Cable companies are required by the FCC to pass PSIP, but only if provided by the broadcaster. If the station isn't sending it, then there is nothing to pass, and stations are not required to send it for cable feeds.

So how come the vast majority of QAM viewers do NOT see their local HD channels on their PSIP-provided station numbers?

Is it because:

a) Most local stations are not passing PSIP info to cable companies? (even if they are passing it via OTA which they are required by law to do)

b) Most cable companies are breaking the law and not passing the PSIP info they receive from the local stations?


Seems to be this whole problem of "remapping" QAM channels could be handled by contacting the local stations and saying "Hey, since you send PSIP info in your OTA signal please send it to [cable company] in their signal too".

Then if your QAM-enabled device still doesn't map channels then contact your cable company and say "I know you're getting PSIP data from [local station] and I demand you pass that info as you are required to do so by law."

Sure it's not THAT easy but if this is really the case it should be doable. Right?

[MichaelK]

The cablecard spec doesn't allow using in-band PSIP data when the cablecard's inserted.


ahhhhh- that explains it.

Bummer...

[MichaelK]

So how come the vast majority of QAM viewers do NOT see their local HD channels on their PSIP-provided station numbers?

Is it because:

a) Most local stations are not passing PSIP info to cable companies? (even if they are passing it via OTA which they are required by law to do)

b) Most cable companies are breaking the law and not passing the PSIP info they receive from the local stations?


Seems to be this whole problem of "remapping" QAM channels could be handled by contacting the local stations and saying "Hey, since you send PSIP info in your OTA signal please send it to [cable company] in their signal too".

Then if your QAM-enabled device still doesn't map channels then contact your cable company and say "I know you're getting PSIP data from [local station] and I demand you pass that info as you are required to do so by law."

Sure it's not THAT easy but if this is really the case it should be doable. Right?



amkes sense.

I dont understnad why cable insists on qam mapping hd to bizzaro channels like 165 anyway.

WHy not map it to 2-1, 3-1, etc?
Is it that QAM cant create x-y channels?

[cwoody222]

What would happen to your OTA stations if cable COULD map a QAM station to x-y?

Say you had 2-1 via OTA and your cable company was mapping that station's QAM signal to 2-1? What would your QAM-enabled device do?

[keenanSR]

So how come the vast majority of QAM viewers do NOT see their local HD channels on their PSIP-provided station numbers?

Is it because:

a) Most local stations are not passing PSIP info to cable companies? (even if they are passing it via OTA which they are required by law to do)

b) Most cable companies are breaking the law and not passing the PSIP info they receive from the local stations?


Seems to be this whole problem of "remapping" QAM channels could be handled by contacting the local stations and saying "Hey, since you send PSIP info in your OTA signal please send it to [cable company] in their signal too".

Then if your QAM-enabled device still doesn't map channels then contact your cable company and say "I know you're getting PSIP data from [local station] and I demand you pass that info as you are required to do so by law."

Sure it's not THAT easy but if this is really the case it should be doable. Right?
I would say it's "a". Yes, contacting the station and requesting them to send channel mapping is certainly an option, that's what some of the SF market viewers are doing with our local channel, KQED.

[keenanSR]

What would happen to your OTA stations if cable COULD map a QAM station to x-y?

Say you had 2-1 via OTA and your cable company was mapping that station's QAM signal to 2-1? What would your QAM-enabled device do?
It would list two channels, 2.1 OTA and 2.1 cable/QAM, pretty sure the S3 does that already although I think it drops the .x designations. Before installing CCs, the S3 listed 2.1, 5.1, 7.1 and 11.1, all OTA HD channels and those same channels, using the same numbers, for the cable fed channels. Of the 5 HD local channels Comcast carries in our area, only the PBS station, KQED doesn't send PSIP data.

When I first installed the S3 I had like 4-5 listings for the same channel, analog OTA, digital OTA, cable analog, and cable digital, and they were all listed right next to each other. An sub-channels for OTA were listed in line as well.

[btwyx]

WHy not map it to 2-1, 3-1, etc?Because most people don't under stand the -, and probably couldn't find it on their remote? Have you noticed the number of threads asking where the '-' button is, especially in the D* HD TiVo forum.

Also making it channel 165 makes it sound like you have more channels.

[MichaelK]

What would happen to your OTA stations if cable COULD map a QAM station to x-y?

Say you had 2-1 via OTA and your cable company was mapping that station's QAM signal to 2-1? What would your QAM-enabled device do?

Interesting point- but it could be just like analog channels on the s3. Channel 2 OTA NTSC sits right next to channel 2 analog cable.

I’m not sure how other devices handle it though and maybe that’s the worry.

But thinking about it- I don’t know of any other device besides tivo that mixes different inputs. My TV can pick cable or antenna but it wont put the 2 together. So presumably any qam tv with an atsc tuner you have to toggle between QAM(cable?) and ATSC (ant?)

So it should really never come up

[MichaelK]

Because most people don't under stand the -, and probably couldn't find it on their remote? Have you noticed the number of threads asking where the '-' button is, especially in the D* HD TiVo forum.

Also making it channel 165 makes it sound like you have more channels.
Good points.

But some day someone has to teach the numnuts about –1 it’s only 2 years off.

[cwoody222]

Because most people don't under stand the -, and probably couldn't find it on their remote? Have you noticed the number of threads asking where the '-' button is, especially in the D* HD TiVo forum.

Also making it channel 165 makes it sound like you have more channels.

That explains why cable companies don't map HD locals that are viewed thru their own boxes or CableCARD devices to their original number.

But what about devices like the TiVo that can view QAM channels withOUT cable equipment?

What good does it do the cable companies to map my local 2-1 to 88-1 or my local 4-1 to 88-2?

(those are real world examples)

[classicsat]

amkes sense.

I dont understnad why cable insists on qam mapping hd to bizzaro channels like 165 anyway.

WHy not map it to 2-1, 3-1, etc?
Is it that QAM cant create x-y channels?

They use three digit channels becasue it is simple easier for customers to use, and they can map the channels as they intend the customer get, and move the channels around the map and keep the 3-digit number.

[keenanSR]

That explains why cable companies don't map HD locals that are viewed thru their own boxes or CableCARD devices to their original number.

But what about devices like the TiVo that can view QAM channels withOUT cable equipment?

What good does it do the cable companies to map my local 2-1 to 88-1 or my local 4-1 to 88-2?

(those are real world examples)
Those lower cable RF channels are probably still being used for the NTSC analog channels so they reflect the channel ID used for the ORA equivalent. Remember, most of the country is still subscribed to analog cable only, about 50% are using digital cable.

[MichaelK]

Those lower cable RF channels are probably still being used for the NTSC analog channels so they reflect the channel ID used for the ORA equivalent. Remember, most of the country is still subscribed to analog cable only, about 50% are using digital cable.


but anyone who is punching in 2-1 knows that's not the same as 2.

[cheneyp]

That explains why cable companies don't map HD locals that are viewed thru their own boxes or CableCARD devices to their original number.

But what about devices like the TiVo that can view QAM channels withOUT cable equipment?

What good does it do the cable companies to map my local 2-1 to 88-1 or my local 4-1 to 88-2?

(those are real world examples)

My Sony DVR has a Cable and an ANT input and it merges the received ANT channels into the Cable/QAM list so when you start Channel Up at Ch 2, it goes 2 Cab, 3 Cab, 3 NTSC OTA, 3-1 ATSC OTA, 3-2 ATSC OTA, 4 Cable, etc.

It would be nice if Comcast would map the QAM to their equivalent OTA values (as an example, 3-1 OTA is 89-2 here in Hartford, CT). There is a discriminator at the top of the info screen that says what the origin of the signal is (ANT or CAB) so there should be no confusion. Also, all my OTA HD channels have PSIP data but it is NOT fed thru by Comcast on my system.

[kb7oeb]

What good does it do the cable companies to map my local 2-1 to 88-1 or my local 4-1 to 88-2?

(those are real world examples)

They aren't mapping anything. The 88 tells you the tuner is tuned to channel 88 (This is the real RF channel) the -1 is stream 1 and -2 is stream 2. In otherwords your cable company is taking both 2-1 and 4-1 and combining or multiplexing them into a single channel (in your case 88)