Giving customers a CHOICE

[jonra]

In the long run - If DTV wants to save itself, and still be a significant provider in the future. IT MUST offer customers CHOICE and make deals with TIVO, and the phone companies again. DirecTV WILL NOT MAKE IT BEING STINGY....

In a finanacial show last night 5pm on CNBC one of the traders recomended TIVO stock as a buy becuase TIVO makes the best DVR. Tivo only does one thing. That is why the'll stay ahead and be better. He said "all TIVO wants from the cable and sattelite providers is $1 per month".

The cable companies and phone companies will offer TIVO Series 3 using the cable card.... SO why won't DirecTV offer TIVO for any customers that want it? It's stupid not to make a TIVO for this purpose, especially if there are customers who want it, and some willing to pay for it. The phone & cable companies will.

IN THE LONG RUN - The system that wins is open and offers choice. imho

[ebonovic]

Do some reading...

Cable Companies are not "offering" Tivo Sereis 3... the are legally obligated to provide the cable-cards... which they are actively (and significantly) fighting.

Cable-Co's don't want you to have TiVo (any series)... they want you to have THEIR provided DVR.... They are no different then the SAT providers (just like Dish, they only have theirs).

Don't be confused because you can "USE" a TiVo (Series 3) on Cable-Co's... that they are "offering" you a TiVo as a choice.

[jonra]

That's my point. DirecTV isn't required. That is why they should offer the best TIVO available (series3 with all the bells & whistles) and embrace it. DTV should continue to make their own DVR and offer it too. Let the customer decide which one. DirecTV has an advantage now - which will slip away as cable & telco get stronger. DirecTV already have HD and SD TIVO & receiver customers - and a deal with TIVO.... Why let it slip away?

[COBeav]

You are naive if you think DirecTV will not survive because they don't offer Tivo. What about Dish? How are they surviving without Tivo? Sure, we all think Tivo is the best otherwise we wouldn't be visiting this message board, but most people don't care who makes their DVR, they just want it to work.

COBeav

[jonra]

I never said DirecTV wouldn't survive - I just said continue to be a " significant provider in the future". Sure Dish is there too... So what...

[bidger]

You think cable is embracing the S3 and Cable Cards? You've got some reading to do.

[jonra]

And another point... when you say you're going to record a show on your DVR - you don't say you're going to "tape it", you don't say you're going to "record it on your DVR" - most say your going to "TIVO it".

[ebonovic]

Actually... I have been using "TiVo" and DVRs for a long time...

I have been saying RECORD it... (we have had polls on it over the year.... there are plenty of people that say "TiVo" though)

TiVo is the new "Klenex"/"Xerox"/"Rollerblade"
A Corporate Name, used to refer to all the products in that category.

[stephenC]

I think most of the posters here are what is fondly referred to as "techno-geeks". You embrace the lastest technology, support your own PCs or Macs, etc. But, DirecTV supports all its subscribers. From those that have to be reminded to plug in their units to make them work all the way up to Earl's level.

Those of you that have ever worked on a Help Desk or Service Desk will understand this. Help Desks are substantial expense centers for companies. One way to minimize costs and training for the CSRs is to limit the supported configurations of hardware and software.

Ok, let me try to anticipate a response this - Why can't D* just not support all our niche configurations? My response would be that you will still have to have some support particularly for access cards. It's just simpler and easier to not allow other boxes.

[cwpomeroy]

ebonovic, any insight on why all of the providers are so focused on owning and controlling the "boxes" so tightly?

Is it for customer service cost mgmt, content protection, etc.? If someone says for differentiation I'd have to ask is that really a core capability of these firms?

As a consumer I wish they'd focus on offering the best Content possible and allow me to choose from the market the best UI/Presentation solution.

Seems if they offloaded the boxes and consumers bought them that would be a huge benefit from a cash flow perspective.

[ebonovic]

ebonovic, any insight on why all of the providers are so focused on owning and controlling the "boxes" so tightly?

Is it for customer service cost mgmt, content protection, etc.? If someone says for differentiation I'd have to ask is that really a core capability of these firms?


1- No way around it... $$$ is a factor in it. They want 100% of the revenue for the services that you are using through their system. Bottom line, that is simple buisness 101. Every carrier wants that.... Including the cable-co's, hence one of the reasons why they are fighting cable-cards so much.

2- From what has been written by others... it is all about touting what services that company can provide to THEIR customers. Just look at the advertisements... we can do x,y,z the other guy can't... It is not exclusive to DirecTV, that is accross almost all companies (even outside TV)

3- By having an outside entity being responsible for the "software" persay, they have less control... both from features and from service.... look at the 6.3 issue right now.... DirecTV can't go to their employees and say... sorry guys, you are working the entire weekend to fix it. They need to work with TiVo, under the guidelines of the contract between them, to get that fix done. (I am just using that as example of why they would want it in house, not picking on TiVo)

4- Another $$$ thing... You pay $300 for their piece of hardware (DVR), that can't be used on another system..... It make some customers think twice about changing their provider. Again, nothing uncommon about that... just like the Cell Phone guys where their phones are "locked" to their networks.

So... that is my 1 minute "theories" on why they want it in house... I am sure there are more...

[gquiring]

I never said DirecTV wouldn't survive - I just said continue to be a " significant provider in the future". Sure Dish is there too... So what...I just re-read your first post and I read it as won't survive - "DirecTV WILL NOT MAKE IT BEING STINGY"

I don't agree, D* does not need Tivo. I don't know the numbers but I know my neighbors and co-workers, 95% of which do not have a DVR. Most use VCR's and many use demand TV via cable. As long as D* has a DVR that works Tivo is not needed for the masses. Yes the Tivo addicts will want Tivo but that's a small number.

[Markman07]

Well if you look at the BIG picture no one or nothing will make in the the LONG run! Everything is coming to an end eventually. But maybe Tivo will be the last thing sitting on earth when that time does come :-)

But yes from the title of the thread...I would love choice.

[cwpomeroy]

1- No way around it... $$$ is a factor in it. They want 100% of the revenue for the services that you are using through their system. Bottom line, that is simple buisness 101. Every carrier wants that.... Including the cable-co's, hence one of the reasons why they are fighting cable-cards so much.

2- From what has been written by others... it is all about touting what services that company can provide to THEIR customers. Just look at the advertisements... we can do x,y,z the other guy can't... It is not exclusive to DirecTV, that is accross almost all companies (even outside TV)

3- By having an outside entity being responsible for the "software" persay, they have less control... both from features and from service.... look at the 6.3 issue right now.... DirecTV can't go to their employees and say... sorry guys, you are working the entire weekend to fix it. They need to work with TiVo, under the guidelines of the contract between them, to get that fix done. (I am just using that as example of why they would want it in house, not picking on TiVo)

4- Another $$$ thing... You pay $300 for their piece of hardware (DVR), that can't be used on another system..... It make some customers think twice about changing their provider. Again, nothing uncommon about that... just like the Cell Phone guys where their phones are "locked" to their networks.

So... that is my 1 minute "theories" on why they want it in house... I am sure there are more...

I'm sure you're right. The funny thing is can you really point to anything differentiating among the various options? Pay per view - check, some type of interactive guide (boring but check), blah blah. It's like watching a race when they're all tied up and wiggling on the ground. They all have a bare bones DVR now with no real differentiation that i can see - and cable boxes that allow you to view movies on demand of some sort... excuse me but - yawn.

Give me some way to centrally manage content (HD and SD) by type or family member, view it in areas of the house or download to a mobile unit, easily find it - schedule it - record it. Mix in some multimedia like pictures and my camcorder and I'm a happy camper. (ps i have directivo's only so i don't have most of that now).

Just seems like they lock out the real innovation for the sake of control and we lose for it.

[jonra]

"Give me some way to centrally manage content (HD and SD) by type or family member, view it in areas of the house or download to a mobile unit, easily find it - schedule it - record it. Mix in some multimedia like pictures and my camcorder and I'm a happy camper. (ps i have directivo's only so i don't have most of that now)."
"Just seems like they lock out the real innovation for the sake of control and we lose for it. "

I TOTALLY AGREE with you. GREAT post!

[TroyM]

I remember when DTV did not make any hardware. They were just a service provider. They relied on 3rd parties to make and sell all hardware for the channel. This was both good and bad.

On the good side, it did entice me to subscribe to DTV fore at the time I was a Dish subscriber. Dish, however, controlled all the hardware save for a partnership with JVC. However, Dish still provided all the software so all boxes (at that time) had the same look, feel, and functionality. DTV allowed each vendor to build in any bells and whistles that they chose. Sony offered such a great UI that I had to switch to DTV to get it.

Today, however, DTV does like Dish and controls all the hardware and software (save Tivo units). This is also good and bad. It allows DTV to tailor the hardware to support whatever service they wish to offer. They don't have to worry about a 3rd party device that isn't compatible. However, it also stiffles innovation and creativity as we are now limited to only what DTV themselves can dream up and offer.

I guess it's true, there are two sides to everything. ;)

[gio1269]

I think "tivo" had been added to the Webster's Dictonary this year, along with other new saying and tings like that.

kinda of "give me a coke" or use "Clorox" when bleaching the laundry.

I usally "I tivo'd the show." Soemtimes I use recorded.

I like Tivo as it's the only DVR that I ever used. Both i don't use the "tumbs up/down" thing not the suggestions list.

All I want for a DVR is the following:

Don't miss a recording
Season Pass
network capable
External drive option
OTA intergrated
massive storage
Folders
record to DVD/PC/VCR


That's about it! When the HR20 had the OTA enabled, bugs worked out and when D* ofers HD on Mepg 4 that I must have, then I won't mind switching.
But thats me. I like "tivo" because it WORKS and is a proven DVR. From what i hear about Dish and Comcast DVRS, I shutter about losing my HR10 and DVR40.

[jonra]

Earl - I disagree with your comment,
TiVo is the new "Klenex"/"Xerox"/"Rollerblade"
A Corporate Name, used to refer to all the products in that category.

For the sake of control, DirecTV could become the next AOL - It's possible.

[JoeSchueller]

This is a pretty interesting discussion. Clearly the Cable Co's are trying to kill off CableCard at every turn. I was shocked to see people in the S3 thread have as much success as they've had so far with CC installs. I expected this to be a disaster, and I'm pleasantly suprised to see it is only a car wreck and not a train wreck so far.

It is well established why the Cable Co's want CC to die and why providers want to control the STB. It helps their revenue stream with rental fees, advertising space for sale, and pimping PPV/VOD.

What we haven't included here is the Copyright Cartel and their influence in Washington and over the Cable/Sat providers. If we weren't all so deathly afraid of pirates, we could have PCI versions of CableCard and D* tuners for inclusion in homebrewed DVR's. Could you imagine how sweet of a STB you could build yourself off of M$'s MediaCenter, Apple's FrontRow, or some bitchin' Myth or other OpenSource effort? It would be incredible to see the integration of broadcast content with downloaded content and personal content, but we ain't going to see this anytime soon.

Unfortunately, Hollywood bought Washington and split it down the middle with the religous right, so not only do they want to control WHAT you watch, they now want to control HOW you watch it. Heaven forbid I'd want to record a movie off of D*, store it on a hard drive (that also contains my kid's DVD's that I've ripped under fair-use), and perhaps watch it on my laptop or PDA when on the road - I'm such a horrible pirate. Shame on me.

[BBURNES]

Earl,

The reasons you mention above are all correct. There's one additional reason:

The DVR is also an advertising vehicle. As you've probably seen in recent press reports, TiVo cut "upfront" media deals this year with 2 of the biggest media buying conglomerates in the US -- the first time that's ever happened. In other words, before the Fall 2006 TV season, those 2 companies committed to purchasing advertising time/space with TiVo.

This is important. Ordinarily, these kinds of upfront buys are placed with, for example, the big networks -- NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX and others, based on the advertisers' interest in the various TV series being promoted. An upfront buy with TiVo means that this year, the big advertising companies recognized that TiVo is a media company, too. TiVo reaches customers, not through traditional TV ads (since most skip the commercials), but through Showcases, Ad Tags and other TiVo mediums.

As traditional :30 ads migrate (and budgets!) -- to some degree -- to Showcases and other new TV advertising mediums, each cable/satellite company wants to own that advertising revenue coming via DVRs. But at moment, TiVo has the most sophisticated and multi-market advertising offering for DVRs. Thus, the fight for revenue.

While DVR advertising revenue is relatively small today vs. traditional advertising, it is a fairly large growth area ... and a very important reason that D* moved to NDS and cable companies have been SLOW to adopt integrated TiVo functionality. They want to control access to the subscriber ... and the money.

[TyroneShoes]

1- No way around it... $$$ is a factor in it. They want 100% of the revenue for the services that you are using through their system. Bottom line, that is simple buisness 101. Every carrier wants that.... Including the cable-co's...
That's an easily understood motivation...not leaving any money on the table. But there is also the pennywise/pound-foolish argument, which in this case seems to be tending toward the latter side of things for DTV.

Imagine how Tivo and DTV came together in the first place. The powers that be at DTV took a long hard look at things, and decided that it made more sense to outsource PVRs to the avowed expert in the field, rather than trying to do it themselves. They made what was at the time a very smart partnership to do just that. IOW, they decided that the benefits of outsurcing to Tivo outweighed the benefits of what it would cost them to allow Tivo to take a portion of the monthly revenue. They could offer a better, even unique, product, and in the end that would serve them better towards selling their content.

That takes vision, faith in the plan, sublimation of ego, and shrewd understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the parent company vs. those of the out-sourced vendor. I think that partnership was a resounding success. The DTivo was a much better product than standalone Tivos ever could be, because of the bit-bucket capability (better PQ) and susidized monthly fee, and DTV gained a loyal following among DTivo users, typically a high-tech, high-dollar, dream-customer base.

But somewhere along the line, DTV figured it could keep all the money if it had its own PVR instead of outsourcing to Tivo, so here we are. DTV thinks that the risk of alienating customers with a vastly-inferior product is outweighed by the revenue they will now get to keep. I think they are wrong about that, and it will come back to bite them in the ass. Either that, or they have convinced themselves that the NDS platform is an equal or near equal to Tivo. And I KNOW they are dead wrong about that. And from what it sounds like, Rupert might even agree.

[Bananfish]

Actually... I have been using "TiVo" and DVRs for a long time...

I have been saying RECORD it... (we have had polls on it over the year.... there are plenty of people that say "TiVo" though)


I still prefer to say that I "tape" it.

[Bananfish]

3- By having an outside entity being responsible for the "software" persay, they have less control... both from features and from service.... look at the 6.3 issue right now.... DirecTV can't go to their employees and say... sorry guys, you are working the entire weekend to fix it. They need to work with TiVo, under the guidelines of the contract between them, to get that fix done. (I am just using that as example of why they would want it in house, not picking on TiVo)

Not to mention that DirecTV inherently understands its distribution infrastructure better than TiVo, and so might be in a better position to develop and test new software. The 6.3 issues are a perfect example - perhaps the 72.5 and other satellite either (a) weren't on TiVo's radar screen, or (b) couldn't be tested by TiVo. [Not saying it's necessarily true, just a possibility.]

[JimSpence]

In order for DirecTV to survive, they need to focus on providing more HD content. Period.

[TonyD79]

Everyone here focuses on the S3 and cable cards with cable companies, but Comcast, the biggest cable company is going to give customers a choice when it offers optional TiVo software on its Moto boxes.

This single platform/interface stuff for CSRs is nonsense. How in the world does Microsoft handle all the differences? I work with a lot of software vendors and none of them have a single piece of software/single interface strategy.

No, this is all Rupert Murdoch. He wanted D* to follow his European model. It was successful over there. Now he is finding that his strategies from Europe are not quite working in the States, so he thinks he has a "turdbird." Well, guess what, Mr. Murdoch. D* was not a turdbird until you started messing with it.

[TyroneShoes]

Not to mention that DirecTV inherently understands its distribution infrastructure better than TiVo, and so might be in a better position to develop and test new software. The 6.3 issues are a perfect example - perhaps the 72.5 and other satellite either (a) weren't on TiVo's radar screen, or (b) couldn't be tested by TiVo. [Not saying it's necessarily true, just a possibility.]
"Perfect" example? That might be stretching it. I think even most folks on this forum understand the distribution infrastructure for SW for both DTV and Tivo pretty well. It's not rocket science (well, I guess some of it actually is), but certainly is not something the head SW guy at Tivo should have any difficulty with, assuming DTV is telling them what they need to know.

It's also possible that someone who should have known better about 72.5 and DD just plain screwed the pooch, which is what 6.3 smells like, to me. My money is on the "screwer" wearing a DTV badge, not a Tivo badge, if history is a clue.

Or maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe DTV sandbagged Tivo into naively releasing 6.3 without telling Tivo where all the bodies (72.5 and DD) were buried, coincidentally at the point where their new DVR was released, just to muddy the waters and create an impression of Tivo having faults.

Take your pick. My theories seem about as credible.

[ebonovic]

Or maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe DTV sandbagged Tivo into naively releasing 6.3 without telling Tivo where all the bodies (72.5 and DD) were buried, coincidentally at the point where their new DVR was released, just to muddy the waters and create an impression of Tivo having faults.


Even for a conspiracy theory... that is a little out there.
As the vast majority of the people out there, (especial those that don't frequent forum boards, and KNOW that TiVo writes the software)... is going to blame DirecTV

[Bananfish]

"Perfect" example? That might be stretching it. I think even most folks on this forum understand the distribution infrastructure for SW for both DTV and Tivo pretty well. It's not rocket science (well, I guess some of it actually is), but certainly is not something the head SW guy at Tivo should have any difficulty with, assuming DTV is telling them what they need to know.

It's also possible that someone who should have known better about 72.5 and DD just plain screwed the pooch, which is what 6.3 smells like, to me. My money is on the "screwer" wearing a DTV badge, not a Tivo badge, if history is a clue.


You may well be right, but I think that underscores my point ... because DTV must communicate intelligence about its distribution system to TiVo (which is not in the satellite business), there are opportunities for screw-ups in those communications, whether by the communicator of that information (DTV) or the communicatee (TiVo). And DTV is undoubtedly less willing to give access to its distribution infrastructure for development and testing than it would be for an in-house development team. Therefore, all other things being equal, if DTV develops software in-house, presumably there are less opportunities for those types of screw-ups. Presumably.

[TyroneShoes]

...As the vast majority of the people out there, (especial those that don't frequent forum boards, and KNOW that TiVo writes the software)... is going to blame DirecTV
But that's just the point. Someone complaining directly to DTV is not something for them to fear, it is instead an opportunity for them to say to that customer directly "We can solve all of these problems simply by getting rid of your bad Tivo (Bad Tivo!...Bad, bad Tivo!) and giving you a shiny new replacement DVR, the latest and the greatest, which is newer, better, and able to do wonderful things no Tivo could ever do, and all it will cost you is a 2-year commitment", which is exactly the opportunity knocking that they are looking for. Tivo comes off as incompetent, and they come off as heroes, at least until the reality of what a drudgery life with the HR20 is actually begins to sink in. By then, too late. They got ya. (cue sinister "George Bush-like" laughter)

[ebonovic]

But that's just the point. Someone complaining directly to DTV is not something for them to fear, it is instead an opportunity for them to say to that customer directly "We can solve all of these problems simply by getting rid of your bad Tivo (Bad Tivo!...Bad, bad Tivo!) and giving you a shiny new replacement DVR, the latest and the greatest, which is newer, better, and able to do wonderful things no Tivo could ever do, and all it will cost you is a 2-year commitment", which is exactly the opportunity knocking that they are looking for. Tivo comes off as incompetent, and they come off as heroes, at least until the reality of what a drudgery life with the HR20 is actually begins to sink in. By then, too late. They got ya. (cue sinister "George Bush-like" laughter)


See... now that is a more thought out and "believable" consipiracy theory...

:D :D :D

[tochill]

I still prefer to say that I "tape" it.

Believe it or not TIVO wants you to as well. I spoke to a Rollerblade rep and he was telling me that they always refer to it as in-line skating...The reason is once a word because so prevelent that it is genericized.."Tivoing" Then it actually nullifies the trademark... Other examples of genericized trademarks (got from a web site...include: Band-Aid, Biro (British), Lego, escalator, aspirin, gramophone, linoleum and Scotch Tape)

[TyroneShoes]

My first instinct is to believe that Tivo loves the co-opting of their brand, if for no other reason than it just must drive other PVR manufactures bat-***** crazy. But having "Tivo" be the ubiquitous de facto term for recording to HDD can backfire for them as well. I can't count on both hands the number of times I had to correct the installer who tried to put in a HR20 instead, when both he and the phone tech support kept claiming with a straight face over and over again, "but it has Tivo in it".