Cost of S3 a marketing error??

[N7TB]

I have had two Tivo's and love them. I purchased a 61 in HDTV and rent an HDDVR from Comcast. I use my Tivo series 2 to tape not HD programming and the Comcast HDDVR that I rent for $5/mo. for HD programs.

I love the Tivo interface, but a $200 lifetime membership transfer fee and then $800 for the S3 is a $1000 investment. I am not sure that the Tivo interface is worth $1000 when I can rent an HDDVR from Comcast for $5 a month. It would take 200 months, or almost 17 years to pay the cost back and by then we will be 5 generations of electronic technology ahead.

I can't help but think that Tivo has made a huge marketing mistake to price the S3 so high. When you think of the technology and cost to produce the S3, it can't be much more than the series 2. I know that Tivo must recoup it research dollars, but $800?

I would be interested to see what others think. I, for one, like tp purchase the new technology toys, but Tivo S3 won't be one of them.

[bkdtv]

I can't help but think that Tivo has made a huge marketing mistake to price the S3 so high. When you think of the technology and cost to produce the S3, it can't be much more than the series 2. I know that Tivo must recoup it research dollars, but $800?
The S3 costs significantly more to produce than the S2, and it doesn't carry with it the same subsidy as the S2. The S3 has a more expensive high-definition chipset, more memory, two separate Samsung receivers with ATSC(OTA)/QAM/NTSC tuners, CableCard PODs, a much larger hard drive, and all sorts of other supporting hardware.

The simple fact is that this technology is expensive. The hardware is expensive. Making it all work is expensive.

The wholesale price for the Series3 is apparently about $500. I expect that the cost to Tivo for this product is about that much. There isn't any price gouging going on here. Tivo could not have offered the product for significantly less without significantly reducing the functionality of the unit (i.e. only record or watch one channel at a time).

If you tamper with that HDTV DVR provided by Comcast, guess how much they charge you? About $700. The cable companies make their money on the digital packages, not the DVR rental / service. In contrast, Tivo has to make its money on the service, which means they can't sell the Series3 at a substantial loss.

The DirecTV HR20 DVR is of similar hardware design, without the Tivo software, and they want $399 just to lease it. Some have gotten a lease for $199-299. As part of this lease deal, they require you to commit to two years of DirecTV service. When you're done with DirecTV, you return the DVR and you don't get your money back. If you want to buy the HR20 DVR, DirecTV charges you about $800. Surprise, surprise, the cost is about same as the Series3.

[ChuckyBox]

I would be interested to see what others think.
I think that if people would stop starting new threads with this same silly argument the board would be a lot less cluttered.

[btwyx]

Its difficult to think it was too expensive when they had more orders than they know what to do with, and they're running out fast at retail outlets.

[Granzella]

I am not sure that the Tivo interface is worth $1000 when I can rent an HDDVR from Comcast for $5 a month. .


You have cheap dvr service with comcast. My DVR from comcast was $10 +$5 for HD + $6.95 for the box. It will take me 60 months to break even. Thats my justfication. Well yeah, I also justified that Tivo was much better than comcast dvr.

[pmrowley]

I will mention that the PQ is FAR, FAR better than the cable DVRs. I have done multiple head-to-head comparisons over the past week with my Tivo3 and the Motorola HD DVR that Cox cable provides. The Tivo blows the doors off of the Motorola. The fact that I'm seeing a better picture on my HD Plasma display makes the investment worth it. My wife and I made a conscious choice to save money over the summer to pay for the Tivo. We didn't go out to dinner, and missed all of the summer blockbusters. But we're watching The Office in gorgeous, Tivo-quality HD.

[Scott D]

I tend to agree. That price is too steep. I am still having trouble understanding why we have to pay for a service. Isn't all we get is the guide? Am I missing something here? TiVo subscription plan has nothing to do with the activation of things like Wishlists or Season Passes. I think if you don't want the subscription plan, you should still be able to record shows manually. Of coarse it will be a dumb recorder. Even then I don't even understand why a guide needs a fee.

Look at Myth TV. Their guide is free. There are about two others that I am aware of but can't remember who they are. Nonetheless, they're free too.

DTV's non DVR receivers have a built in TV guide and there is no charge. How come you add a DVR, all of the sudden this free guide is no longer free? This has been bothering me for some time, but hey, what can I do about it? It's a money thing.

[megazone]

Christ, do we need ANOTHER damn thread about this?

[Scott D]

Christ, do we need ANOTHER damn thread about this?

Only if you don't mind throwing your money away.



If so, can you send some my way? :D

[montivette]

Gosh I have never seen a thread debating the price/value of the Series 3 before. I am shocked to find out some think it is overpriced and not worth it.

[N7TB]

Since I started the thread, first I apologize if I have started a duplicat thread. I did not know all the details of what went into the S3 or the wholesale price point. I understand that these are flying off the shelves, even before some of the cable cards work with the units. I am not sure what drives folks to be on the bleeding edge of new technology. I read the reviews of the HDTV I bought for a year before i bought and all the problems of the first adopters were resolved with a few updates to the TV. I bought it and have loved it with no problems.

I guess it is to each his own. Some folks have the discretionary income to spend on an S3 regardless of price...either that or a big credit card balance. I want Tivo to survive so the purchases of the S3 will help Tivo. As for me, I still can't justify the cost, but that is just me. Maybe if i wait awhile the cost will drop somewhat.

Folks, I really appreciate this Tivo community forum. Thanks to all for the very informative posts over the years!

[nhaigh]

That's a matter of opinion. I actually feel that the S3 is worth every penny. If you don't like the price don't buy one. One day they will come down but for now there is clearly no shortage of people prepared to pay $800. In fact if the stocks are running out then demand is outstripping supply and that sugests the $800 is not as much as they could have got - simple economics.

[classicX]

I think that if people would stop starting new threads with this same silly argument the board would be a lot less cluttered.

+5 (Correct)

You would think with a join date of Dec 2002 he would know how to browse and search the threads.

Then again, with 26 posts, he may have been absent for the whole pre-release debate.

At any rate, it doesn't matter what other people think - Tivo will lower the price when they are good and ready, and not a moment before.

[classicX]

I will mention that the PQ is FAR, FAR better than the cable DVRs. I have done multiple head-to-head comparisons over the past week with my Tivo3 and the Motorola HD DVR that Cox cable provides. The Tivo blows the doors off of the Motorola. The fact that I'm seeing a better picture on my HD Plasma display makes the investment worth it. My wife and I made a conscious choice to save money over the summer to pay for the Tivo. We didn't go out to dinner, and missed all of the summer blockbusters. But we're watching The Office in gorgeous, Tivo-quality HD.

*sigh*

Are you sure you're just not looking at the picture with excited eyes?

Given the same source, since HD is ALL DIGITAL, there can be no difference in the PQ outside of using bad cables or different picture settings in the box. Were you using an HDMI cable for your head-to-head? If the answer is yes, then you are mistaken about the PQ. If you were using HDMI for the Tivo and Component for the Moto (or vice versa), you weren't doing a true 1-to-1 comparison.

Or were you using HD from cable for the motorola and HD OTA for the Tivo?

These things make a difference. Otherwise you can't tell me that on the same TV, 010011101 looks any better than 010011101.

*double sigh*

[HDTiVo]

$800 won't become a marketing mistake for almost two months.

I don't think the decompressed HDMI output is the same from model to model.

[Canoehead]

I am not sure what drives folks to be on the bleeding edge of new technology.

It's fun, sometimes its challenging, we're geeks - who the hell knows? I love the S-3, my wife loves the S-3 and she isn't too upset over the cost, so it's all good.

[bkdtv]

Given the same source, since HD is ALL DIGITAL, there can be no difference in the PQ outside of using bad cables or different picture settings in the box. Were you using an HDMI cable for your head-to-head? If the answer is yes, then you are mistaken about the PQ. If you were using HDMI for the Tivo and Component for the Moto (or vice versa), you weren't doing a true 1-to-1 comparison.
It would be nice if this were true, but it's not.

There are significant differences in output quality between some MPEG-2 HL decoders, and vast differences in output quality between deinterlacers and scalers. The technology for the latter is in its infancy.

Now, the Series3 and latest revision of the Motorola do use the same version of the Broadcom chipset, but even then, there are various firmware settings that affect the picture quality. For example, many HD decoders offer multiple processing modes to reduce memory and bandwidth requirements -- enabling lower-cost designs. Other supporting silicon, such as from that from Silicon Image for HDMI, can also determine whether you get the proper colorspace and video levels, or whether you get clipping of BTB/peak whites.

Most home theater enthusiasts are probably familiar with the fact that there were significant differences between the quality of many DVD players in years past, despite the fact that all were decoding the same MPEG-2 signal. High-definition decoders have not yet reached the maturity of those SD decoders. Even something as simple as the ability to pass blacker-than-black (BTB) can have a significant impact on shadow detail, particulary at HD resolutions.

I'm sure many gamers can attest to quality differences they've seen between different video boards in their computers. Most games use a single API and feature a single set of textures, yet can look very different on different video cards. The picture quality with a given graphics card can also change noticeably between driver updates. The Broadcom chipset in the Series3 provides all the 2D/3D graphics and decoding hardware, and it's output is similarly affected by its drivers (firmware).

[R. Kalia]

Since I started the thread, first I apologize if I have started a duplicat thread.
Duplicate implies two. In fact there have been maybe a hundred such threads.

[HDTiVo]

Duplicate implies two. In fact there have been maybe a hundred such threads.
Really? I'll be sure never to duplicate anything more than once. :rolleyes:

[hiddentrout]

Jeez.

No need to bludgeon the guy.

There's lots of folks who are quite taken aback by the high price.

Because he didn't come here when the S3 was announced and post or, alternatively, bump a thread a few days old instead of starting a new one, that's some kind of criminal offense..?

Relax.

If it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times - if you don't like the topic, don't read it. Pass it by. Stop throwing rocks.

[Chester_Lampwick]

Holy cow! Another "Why is TiVo so expensive?" thread. I mean it's called free market. If people think a product is superior it can command a larger pricetag. I mean really why do Denon/Yamaha/Onkyo stereo recievers cost more than Lloyds/Citizen/Candle etc.

Maybe we're snooty to spend all this money on a TiVo DVR. Shouldn't we be allowed to spend money as we see fit?

[hiddentrout]

Holy cow! Another "Why is TiVo so expensive?" thread.
I mean it's called free market....It's also called a free society, one in which folks are free to share their opinions, and you're free to listen to or ignore them.

Although, I suppose that also entitles you to ridicule and throw sarcasm at others if that floats your boat, which apparently it does.

[jones07]

Shouldn't we be allowed to spend money as we see fit?


Yes, but I reserved the right to make fun of people when they spend their money foolishly............IMO :D

[tgibbs]

I tend to agree. That price is too steep. I am still having trouble understanding why we have to pay for a service. Isn't all we get is the guide? Am I missing something here? TiVo subscription plan has nothing to do with the activation of things like Wishlists or Season Passes. I think if you don't want the subscription plan, you should still be able to record shows manually. Of coarse it will be a dumb recorder. Even then I don't even understand why a guide needs a fee.

Look at Myth TV. Their guide is free. There are about two others that I am aware of but can't remember who they are. Nonetheless, they're free too.

DTV's non DVR receivers have a built in TV guide and there is no charge. How come you add a DVR, all of the sudden this free guide is no longer free? This has been bothering me for some time, but hey, what can I do about it? It's a money thing.

If you will be just as happy with MythTV as with a TiVo, then you should definitely buy that instead. Or you can get a much cheaper DVR box from your cable company. It's not a TiVo (yet) but it is definitely cheaper. Or you can wait a while. Some cable companies will be offering TiVo boxes, perhaps later this year. There will doubtless be a monthly fee (as there is for everything your cable company offers, although it doesn't really cost them any more to provide all of the channels than it costs for basic services), but it will probably be cheaper than this box. Or you can wait a bit longer. Hardware prices drop pretty quickly; in a couple of years the S3 will probably $500 or less. Or you could switch to DirecTV. A lot of former DirecTV subscribers will probably be unloading their HD TiVo HR10-250 boxes cheaply, or you could use the non-TiVo HD box that DirecTV is now offering (although as with cable, there is always a monthly fee). You pay a monthly fee with pretty much everybody except MythTV.

So you have a lot of options. In the meantime, the S3 boxes seem to be selling briskly, so it hardly seems likely that the current pricing is a mistake for TiVo. Once the demand dies down, the deals will doubtless improve; being an early adopter is never cheap.

[eisenb11]

Yes, but I reserved the right to make fun of people when they spend their money foolishly............IMO :D

So essentially you make fun of people you don't agree with? :D

/Just prodding... I'm bored
// Waiting for the cable guy to get here with cable cards
/// slashies for the win!

[rainwater]

Great, I see another, "I'm smarter than you thread" coming along.

[russkle]

+5 (Correct)

You would think with a join date of Dec 2002 he would know how to browse and search the threads.

Then again, with 26 posts, he may have been absent for the whole pre-release debate.

At any rate, it doesn't matter what other people think - Tivo will lower the price when they are good and ready, and not a moment before.

This is the kind of "forum" community feeling that make me stay away if possible. There have been hundreds of posts over the last three weeks on this. NO ONE can read them all. Searching for them helps some, but not much at all. Until we have a maintained sticky listing the topics that have been covered and links to them, then LAY OFF.

[zordude]

It would take 200 months, or almost 17 years to pay the cost back and by then we will be 5 generations of electronic technology ahead.


I will never understand why people require some sort of timeframe when something is "payed back". TiVo series 3 came out, I was very interested in it. My budget allowed me to purchase one. When I pay the CC bill, the TiVo cost will be "payed off".

I don't need to depreciate my home eletronics for X number of years to justify the purchase.

Z

[pmrowley]

*sigh*

Are you sure you're just not looking at the picture with excited eyes?

Given the same source, since HD is ALL DIGITAL, there can be no difference in the PQ outside of using bad cables or different picture settings in the box. Were you using an HDMI cable for your head-to-head? If the answer is yes, then you are mistaken about the PQ. If you were using HDMI for the Tivo and Component for the Moto (or vice versa), you weren't doing a true 1-to-1 comparison.

Or were you using HD from cable for the motorola and HD OTA for the Tivo?

These things make a difference. Otherwise you can't tell me that on the same TV, 010011101 looks any better than 010011101.

*double sigh*

Wow, that's a pretty snide, smart-ass response from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. DVDs are pure digital too, but the PQ between a top-end Sony and an el-cheapo Phillips is noticeable as well, even when you're using the same output type. As someone else mentioned, the quality of HD decoders varies greatly between individual boxes. You made a pretty huge assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about, obviously referring to my low post count as correlating to me being a newbie.

Just for your edification, I'll elaborate on my setup:
1) Dual HDMI inputs to my Panel, using the exact same high-quality cables. (I even swapped them at one point to ensure that I was doing a 1-to-1 comparison.
2) High-quality cable splitter in front of the two boxes, straight off of a home run.
3) Tivo manually tuned to the same HD QAM that the Moto box was tuned to. (CCs were connected yesterday.)
4) Moto and Tivo set to the EXACT same output settings (720p for HD, 480p for SD)
5) Just to ensure complete objectivity, I did a blind test with my wife, and had her indicate which PQ was higher; she didn't know what HD input was being switched to. She selected the Tivo input *every* time, even when I did a couple of "trick" switches to the same input (she noticed that the PQ didn't change.)

See what happens when you assume?

*Triple Sigh*

[Dssturbo1]

Its difficult to think it was too expensive when they had more orders than they know what to do with, and they're running out fast at retail outlets.
tivo screwed this product release up so bad who knows if only 100 people ordered that they would have known what to do with them

and you know much of the retail shortage was caused by tivo shipping fiasco and the offer to let retail buyer transfer lifetime subs so people like you and many others who didn't get answers and were po'ed at tivo went and bought one locally.

[Scott D]

If you will be just as happy with MythTV as with a TiVo, then you should definitely buy that instead. Or you can get a much cheaper DVR box from your cable company. It's not a TiVo (yet) but it is definitely cheaper. Or you can wait a while. Some cable companies will be offering TiVo boxes, perhaps later this year. There will doubtless be a monthly fee (as there is for everything your cable company offers, although it doesn't really cost them any more to provide all of the channels than it costs for basic services), but it will probably be cheaper than this box. Or you can wait a bit longer. Hardware prices drop pretty quickly; in a couple of years the S3 will probably $500 or less. Or you could switch to DirecTV. A lot of former DirecTV subscribers will probably be unloading their HD TiVo HR10-250 boxes cheaply, or you could use the non-TiVo HD box that DirecTV is now offering (although as with cable, there is always a monthly fee). You pay a monthly fee with pretty much everybody except MythTV.

So you have a lot of options. In the meantime, the S3 boxes seem to be selling briskly, so it hardly seems likely that the current pricing is a mistake for TiVo. Once the demand dies down, the deals will doubtless improve; being an early adopter is never cheap.


You seem to misunderstand me. How is it that all these other DVR's I have mentioned does not require a subscription plan but TiVo does? What exactly am I paying for? Nobody else needs to be paid. As far as I know, the subscription plan is for the TV guide. Based on that, the software that came with the TiVo is non functional or severly limited if you don't get the plan. As great as TiVo is, I feel that I am doing nothing more than lining their pockets.

My analogy od Windows XP is a correct statement. Do you feel you should be charged for simply turning on your computer and using it? Well, that's what you do to record a TV show. You're paying TiVo to have the ability to record your shows.

[Narf54321]

I love the Tivo interface, but a $200 lifetime membership transfer fee and then $800 for the S3 is a $1000 investment. I am not sure that the Tivo interface is worth $1000 when I can rent an HDDVR from Comcast for $5 a month. It would take 200 months, or almost 17 years to pay the cost back and by then we will be 5 generations of electronic technology ahead.

Essentially, you're paying for convenience with Tivo. Some of those cableco DVRs are gawdawful to deal with, but each person's frustration threshold is going to be different. Cableco's also tend to subsidize the box price on the hope you'll buy their video-on-demand and pay-per-view services.

(The funny thing is, for all the money I've already given Tivo for my S1, and then my S2 units, I find I watch less television than I used to. For $1000, I'd probably watch still even less TV, but in glorious Hi-Def. I'd like to see MRV and eSATA working, first though.)


I can't help but think that Tivo has made a huge marketing mistake to price the S3 so high. When you think of the technology and cost to produce the S3, it can't be much more than the series 2. I know that Tivo must recoup it research dollars, but $800?


I'm certainly one of the folks thinking $800 plus subscription is a large pill to swallow. But I was recently checking out MythTV and that Neuros thingie and putting costs into perspective. The Neuros 'beta' it was $230 with apparently single input, unfinished interface (its more of a hobby box), and no hard drive.

MythTV is coming along, but you need a PC to begin with. How much is that. A decent set-top style case is going to cost you a couple hundred bucks (empty!), plus HDD, and you need some tuner cards. The Hauppauge 150 with remote is like $130-150, and a second 150 without remote is another $90-100. More costs for motherboard and CPU, etc. Then you have to put it all together, install a working linux system, then get the mythtv software running properly... get it all working yourself. The guide info is from Zap2it, although free (for now) you must sign into an account and fill out a survey every 4 months to continue getting your guide data. After all this, you still don't have a CableCard compatible box. You pay a lot of money and especially time for MythTV.

Although $800+ for a dual-tuner HD Tivo is still a lot of cash, it begins to be put in perspective. Tivo's S3 is THX and CableLabs certified (certainly not free), and supports CableCard QAM. You're paying for convenience and once plugged in the Tivo simply "just works" (for the most part).

[btwyx]

As a point of comparison, I just got the rate sheet from my cable company. It lists the cost if you lose or destroy their equipment. The prices for the HD DVRs are:

6208: $434
6412: $470
Moxi: $588

I assume these are something like the cable co's cost. These are more mature products which ship in greater volume than the TiVo. The TiVo's price isn't so far out of line with those.

[pmrowley]

I debated a LONG time as to whether to go with a MythTV setup or just grab an S3. I came up with the same conclusion as Narf; The MythTV setup, although more flexible and scalable, was going to be a major headache to configure (and I'm a Linux guy,) and maintain. The cost of new drives and hardware would easily put me over the $2000 mark for a decent front-end/back-end setup.

And I still wouldn't be able to record my Premium HD channels at true HD, since the alternative input to a straight cable into the HD cards is S-video. And, I'd need to keep renting at least one HD tuner box from my cable provider to see my premium content. That in and of itself compensates for the cost of the Tivo service every month ($7.00, since I have an old S2 on lifetime.)

[cwoody222]

Its difficult to think it was too expensive when they had more orders than they know what to do with, and they're running out fast at retail outlets.

Right. But the "shortage" is from a product that is less than TWO WEEKS old.

I have no doubt the "shortage" will go away very soon.

[gwsat]

Jeez.

No need to bludgeon the guy.

There's lots of folks who are quite taken aback by the high price.

Because he didn't come here when the S3 was announced and post or, alternatively, bump a thread a few days old instead of starting a new one, that's some kind of criminal offense..?

Relax.

If it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times - if you don't like the topic, don't read it. Pass it by. Stop throwing rocks.
Amen. Unsolicited advice is a bad idea but some posters NEVER learn, alas. In fact, it seems to me that many of those who pile on do so not because they are really concerned that a thread is “repetitious,” but because they do not like the position being put forward, here, that the S3 is too expensive.

It seems to me that nobody has any obligation to conduct an archives search before starting a new thread. It also strikes me that those who think a thread is recovering old ground would do themselves, and the rest of us, a favor by keeping their own counsel.

With that out of the way, I will say that I fundamentally disagree with the claim that the S3 is too expensive. The DirecTiVo was even more expensive than the S3 is, $1,000. But I bought one for my son, who is a DirecTV subscriber in another market, with a smile on my face. It just comes down to this, it seems to me: you get what you pay for.

[Narf54321]

You seem to misunderstand me. How is it that all these other DVR's I have mentioned does not require a subscription plan but TiVo does?

I'm pretty sure you're getting more granular data than the typical Zap2it or GEMstar stuff. And, at least for the S2 units (of which I am familiar) you also get the additional apps (I like the weather and movie listings), remote schedule thru the tivo.com webpage, and system OS updates. And Tivo's Season Pass function is better than the cableco and mythTV schedulers.

My analogy od Windows XP is a correct statement. Do you feel you should be charged for simply turning on your computer and using it? Well, that's what you do to record a TV show. You're paying TiVo to have the ability to record your shows.

Microsoft has been trying to get into the 'rental' model for years. That's what those annual corporate licensing plans are all about, and they've even tried setting up a version of MS-Office on a monthly fee basis. Microsoft would love to get everyone into a monthly payment plan just to use Windows.

Even the new videogame units are all coming out with extra "online" content, which will have various 'extra' fees, even after the purchase price of a game. Trying to set up recurring revenue is not a new model in the tech industry. Tivo is just one of the few who've been somewhat successful at it.

[btwyx]

Right. But the "shortage" is from a product that is less than TWO WEEKS old.

I have no doubt the "shortage" will go away very soon.But it certainly doesn't point to it being the wrong price to launch at.

[Bodshal]

*sigh*

Are you sure you're just not looking at the picture with excited eyes?

Given the same source, since HD is ALL DIGITAL, there can be no difference in the PQ outside of using bad cables or different picture settings in the box. Were you using an HDMI cable for your head-to-head? If the answer is yes, then you are mistaken about the PQ. If you were using HDMI for the Tivo and Component for the Moto (or vice versa), you weren't doing a true 1-to-1 comparison.

Or were you using HD from cable for the motorola and HD OTA for the Tivo?

These things make a difference. Otherwise you can't tell me that on the same TV, 010011101 looks any better than 010011101.

*double sigh*

You're discounting the artifacts that boxes introduce into signals. Even digital ones. Not all MPEG decoders are created equal. The majority of them have a well-documented chroma bug, for instance, which my old Moto STB definately has. (colour information for adjacent lines get messed up).

Plus, scalers also are not all equal. I don't know what the TiVo's one is like since I don't use it, but I do know that whatever Motorola uses is sub-optimal.

Then there is the mapping of the decoded, scaled image into the colour space being used by the outputs. With analog outputs, that means mapping digital values to a range of analog ones. With digital outputs, that means resampling the colour data. TiVo outputs YPbPr 4:4:4 (or mine seems to) over HDMI. This is good. It preserves as much colour information as the HDMI spec allows. The Moto box I have does 4:2:2 or RGB over DVI, both of which result in a loss of available colours. These are not the same.

Don't get trapped in "Digital = Digital". It's a bogus statement.

Chris.

[eisenb11]

How is it that all these other DVR's I have mentioned does not require a subscription plan but TiVo does? What exactly am I paying for? Nobody else needs to be paid. As far as I know, the subscription plan is for the TV guide.

This is easy. Tivo's TV guide is a damn good one - it blows away any other I've seen including the cable co's own guide. My cable co's guide didn't show aspect ratio, or episode name, or actors (half the time)... and the description on it was usually 5-7 words and absolutely worthless. The Tivo guide is awesome.

On top of that you're paying for the online service where you can program your Tivo on their website. This costs money for them to operate.

Let's also include Tivo suggestions. How do you think the Tivo makes suggestions on what it thinks you'd like to watch? They need to compile all kinds of data about each show which, in turn, will be used to see if it thinks you'll like it. There's a lot of back end work there for the Tivo guys.

Eventually, I hope to see things like TTG etc return. There's more stuff that you're paying for.

Finally, you're also paying for the luxory of not having to use the cable co's piece-of-crap-box.

Based on that, the software that came with the TiVo is non functional or severly limited if you don't get the plan. As great as TiVo is, I feel that I am doing nothing more than lining their pockets.

That's the thing about consumer products. It's all about perception. If you don't feel it's worth the money then don't buy it. It's silly to expect people to fight you, because we really don't care if you use it or not and, frankly, there is little anyone can do to change your mind... it's your decision. If you honestly think it's a waste of money, then don't "waste" your money!

My analogy od Windows XP is a correct statement. Do you feel you should be charged for simply turning on your computer and using it? Well, that's what you do to record a TV show. You're paying TiVo to have the ability to record your shows.

Your analogy isn't very good because you're not looking at the entire scope of WinXP.

First WinXP doesn't make money through subs like Tivo does. It's a different model. WinXP goes for straight sales (and more, will get to that later)... Tivo would go bankrupt fast if they tried to only make money that way.

Second, as software, WinXP distribution is much cheaper and leads to much higher profits. Once a piece of software is developed it costs a few dollars per copy to distribute. Each S3 sold probably costs $400-$500 to distribute.

Third, WinXP has a hidden agenda... it's not even MS's biggest money maker. The goal of WinXP is to get to you buy other MS products like Office, Visual Studio, etc... BTW MS Office is MS's biggest money maker.

Different market, different game.

If you have to go that way, a better analogy would be to compare Tivo with the XBox.

MS doesn't intend to get rich (or even break even for that matter) on XBox sales. The goal of the XBox is to sell XBox games. The more XBox games you buy, the more money MS makes.

Tivo is similar. Tivo's goal is not to sell you S3 units. It's to get you to buy subs. The subs are the equivalent to XBox games in that they represent future expenses that the customer (hopefully) continues to purchase.

Obviously, each time you buy a game, it's a different game whereas a Tivo sub is buying the same thing over and over again, but that's how the business works and it makes sense for what Tivo is.


... a final analogy...

Think of MMORPGs. Using your argument, someone should be able to play WoW forever because they bought the game for $50. It costs money to keep things running... and that's where the Tivo sub comes in.

Remember that Tivo is more than a TV guide... alot more. If it were that simple, the subs *should* be free... or at least a lot cheaper...

[DocSavag]

Right. But the "shortage" is from a product that is less than TWO WEEKS old.

I have no doubt the "shortage" will go away very soon.


If that is true you'll see the price fall dramatically. And those of you who waited will get a bargin. ;)

[classicX]

Wow, that's a pretty snide, smart-ass response from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about.

Just for your edification, I'll elaborate on my setup:

I can be a snide as I want to be. >_<

Furthermore, I need not be edified by the likes of you. I can assume all I want.

Welcome to America.

:D

ROFLMAOBPOTIGSUOW

(Rolling on the floor laugh my arse off because people on the internet get so up over words)

[ZeoTiVo]

This is the kind of "forum" community feeling that make me stay away if possible. There have been hundreds of posts over the last three weeks on this. NO ONE can read them all. Searching for them helps some, but not much at all. Until we have a maintained sticky listing the topics that have been covered and links to them, then LAY OFF.
funny, it is usually the same pointless argument in 20 different threads that make reading the forum hard. This is not a topic that rolled off days ago nor is it at all hard to find multiple threads on the topic even as I type. Community works both ways and keeping the clutter down is always appreciated on any forum

[vstone]

Like it or not, the unit is THX certified, which makes it high end equipment.

[lrhorer]

If you will be just as happy with MythTV as with a TiVo, then you should definitely buy that instead.
This is true.

Or you can get a much cheaper DVR box from your cable company. It's not a TiVo (yet) but it is definitely cheaper.
This could be true or false, depending on how one defines "cheaper". It will definitely be of lower quality. It will only cost the consumer less if they keep the new TiVo for a limited amount of time.

Or you can wait a while. Some cable companies will be offering TiVo boxes, perhaps later this year.
Waiting may not help. Only some companies, as you say, are going to offer TiVos. Mine I know is not planning so to do. If his is not one of those who will, then waiting won't help.

There will doubtless be a monthly fee (as there is for everything your cable company offers, although it doesn't really cost them any more to provide all of the channels than it costs for basic services)
This is false. The CATV company is a reseller of services, just like a retail store. They pay on a per subscriber basis for essentially every channel which is not a must-carry service. The wholesale cost of content is the largest single overhead the CATV company bears, and you can bet your bottom dollar they keep track of how many customers have what services so they are not overcharged for their rights to broadcast. It is also more expensive to maintain higher bandwidths, although with optical CATV nodes and switched digital video, this burden has been eased dramatically.

Or you can wait a bit longer. Hardware prices drop pretty quickly; in a couple of years the S3 will probably $500 or less.
The problem is, 2 years form now the user will not be able to obtain a lifetime subscription, according to TiVo. My series I is nearly six years old, and at $12.95 a month, it would have cost me over $900 so far in subscription fees if I had not purchsed a lifetime subscription. Spening $1000 now is a lot less than $1400 + later. Not only that, but in my case, at least, getting the S3 will drop my CATV bill by right at $40 a month. If I wait two years, that's $960, plus the estimated $500 cost of the S3, plus $1000 or more in S3 subscriptions. I have to say, $1000 looks a great deal more attractive than $2460+. I think it's a brilliant, if slightly underhanded marketing strategy on TiVo's part.

[pmrowley]

I can be a snide as I want to be. >_<

Furthermore, I need not be edified by the likes of you. I can assume all I want.

Welcome to America.

:D

ROFLMAOBPOTIGSUOW

(Rolling on the floor laugh my arse off because people on the internet get so up over words)

Thank you ever so much for reminding me why I usually don't bother with public forums like these. I'll let you get back to your tiny little life now, where you can pretend to be a big-shot.

It's kind of funny, considering how eager you were to deliver a condescending lecture with "facts" that were dead wrong, that when called on it, you resort to base insults. It looks to me like the person who got "so up over words" was you, and you attributed it to me, since your initial argument didn't stand up. That is called "Transferrence."

[lrhorer]

funny, it is usually the same pointless argument in 20 different threads that make reading the forum hard.
Then why are *YOU* posting in this thread? Your post helped keep this thread at the top of the list, in lieu of other, older threads. Whether you wish to call it laziness, ignorance, or what have you, the posters in fora of this sort rely upon the order of thread posting in the thread list to determine what topics are "hot". I am certainly no stranger to this medium, and if I wish to obtain specific information I know very well how to embark on a search, but as another poster already mentioned, until someone begins to maintain sticky threads, it is not reasonable to criticize those who start new versions of old threads.

As I see it, this is very much like the arguments posted in this thread itself. People complain about paying subscription fees, but they seem to completely ignore the fact creating that service takes time and effort, which equals money much more than bits of iron and silicon. They are not willing to donate their own resources, but they for some reason expect TiVo to do so. Are you volunteering to maintain sticky threads in this forum?

Community works both ways and keeping the clutter down is always appreciated on any forum
That is a very reasonable statement. Attacking thsoe who fail so to do is another matter.

[Stormspace]

Christ, do we need ANOTHER damn thread about this?

Why are you so surprised. It was bound to happen as more people see the light. :)

[smak]

If Series 3's were $3000 and they sold every single possible one they could make, as fast as they could make them, then they would still be priced too low.

I guess this is what happens when they let you use calculator's in elementary school now?

-smak-

[Stormspace]

You seem to misunderstand me. How is it that all these other DVR's I have mentioned does not require a subscription plan but TiVo does? What exactly am I paying for? Nobody else needs to be paid. As far as I know, the subscription plan is for the TV guide. Based on that, the software that came with the TiVo is non functional or severly limited if you don't get the plan. As great as TiVo is, I feel that I am doing nothing more than lining their pockets.

My analogy od Windows XP is a correct statement. Do you feel you should be charged for simply turning on your computer and using it? Well, that's what you do to record a TV show. You're paying TiVo to have the ability to record your shows.

What you should be complaining about is paying a sub when you get a non-subsidized Series 3. Everyone says that the S2's are subsidized with the subs. Sub sub sub. :)

[Stormspace]

If Series 3's were $3000 and they sold every single possible one they could make, as fast as they could make them, then they would still be priced too low.

I guess this is what happens when they let you use calculator's in elementary school now?

-smak-

Hah! Funny one. 800.00 seems to be a good price point for rabid fanboys. :)

[MichaelK]

PLEASE MODS

merge this with the other 25 similar threads....

[HDTiVo]

tivo screwed this product release up so bad who knows if only 100 people ordered that they would have known what to do with them

and you know much of the retail shortage was caused by tivo shipping fiasco and the offer to let retail buyer transfer lifetime subs so people like you and many others who didn't get answers and were po'ed at tivo went and bought one locally.
You are dead on, except 100 wasn't the number. ;)

TiVo has had plenty of boxes to ship throughout, as illustrated by orders going out quickly starting Monday. Oh, and there'll be a whole bunch coming in the next few days. ;)

And who cares about TiVo.com? You can get the S3 other places overnight.

[Gregor]

I think when you consider that a Series 1 in 1999 cost $1000, had one SD tuner and 14 hours of recording time. With the rate of inflation since then, that box cost abou $1200 in 2006 dollars.

So for 2/3 the price, folks are getting dual HD tuners, network access and nearly twice the recording capacity in the Series 3.

[HomieG]

I will mention that the PQ is FAR, FAR better than the cable DVRs. I have done multiple head-to-head comparisons over the past week with my Tivo3 and the Motorola HD DVR that Cox cable provides.

I'm confused. Did you test all the cable company DVR's (1st sentence) -or- just the one that Cox provided to you (2nd sentence)? Or are you saying your Cox provided DVR is representative of all cable company DVR's?

[HDTiVo]

If Series 3's were $3000 and they sold every single possible one they could make, as fast as they could make them, then they would still be priced too low.

Well, when that happens, you will be right. Until then you remain wrong. ;)

[Stephen Tu]

I think when you consider that a Series 1 in 1999 cost $1000, had one SD tuner and 14 hours of recording time

For about the 4th time I have had to say this, no it wasn't. It was the 30 hr that cost $999. At intro, the 14 hr series 1 cost $499, +$199 for lifetime sub. People seem to have read one or two posts that claimed 14hr cost $1000 then just keep repeating this false statement, even though it has no basis in fact. Use google, you can search and find plenty of articles showing $499 price for 14 hr Tivo in 1999.

And besides, what something cost back in 1999 is irrelevant anyway. At beginning Series 1 had no competition other than ReplayTV, and Replay was at a similar price point. Now it has competition from cable DVRs, at much lower price point. S3 does provide double capacity of cable DVRs & eventual expandability, better interface, & OTA capaibilities, but at quite a high cost.

[HDTiVo]

In 1983 my employer bought PCs that were nothing special for $6,500. I can't understand why the mid-line Dells aren't $6,500 +23 yrs of inflation. :rolleyes:

[megazone]

There have been hundreds of posts over the last three weeks on this. NO ONE can read them all.Just to note, I have read every post made in this forum since it was created. (Well, I have some recent posts I'm reading now.)

Yes, I'm crazy.

[Phantom Gremlin]

If Series 3's were $3000 and they sold every single possible one they could make, as fast as they could make them, then they would still be priced too low.
If you look at it logically then you are correct. But people aren't logical. They're illogical. They're irrational. Kind of like Spock was logical but Kirk wasn't.

For example, there's a thread:

Tivo: Retail lifetime transfers are great, but some of us took you at your word...

Is the above logical? No, it's not. It relates to something called customer goodwill.

And demand for S3 TiVos isn't infinite. So, if TiVo sold products at $3000 then cut the price after all the sheep bought them, the bleating of the fleeced would be deafening. You think the S3 passions are high now? This is nothing compared to the donnybrook that would happen after the first price reduction.

Even with a starting price of $800, there will be many who will say "but I just paid $800 not 3 months ago, how could you sell now it for only $600. I got screwed."

[Scott D]

If you have to go that way, a better analogy would be to compare Tivo with the XBox.

I seriously agree that the cost of this TiVo is too high.


Ok, you got it. If I want an upgrade or more functions or whatever, buy the software. Treat it like a GPS. If you want to update the map file BUY THE PROGRAM!!!! If not, and you're happy with what you have, fine. I think the choice should be ours. Not TiVo's or anybody else's.

I think that would be a fair and reasonable solution. Customize your TiVo. If you want all the bells and whistles, then pay for them. If not, don't. If all you need is Season Passes and Wishlists but not the showcases and such, that should be our decision.

I'm not a cheap person. I just can't see any justification for this price as well as my wife in addition to the people of whom I work with feels the same way I do. Why do I have to pay TiVo more money just to record free TV? Via Antenna. Not to mention the stupid contract.



* 1 year TiVo® service commitment required. (sounds like a cable service)
* Early termination fee up to $200 applies if canceled prior to commitment end date, except as permitted by 30 day Money Back Guarantee.
* Includes TiVo Service and a TiVo® Series3™ DMR.
* Money Back Guarantee applies only to initial activations if canceled within 30 days and DVR is returned for a full refund.
* The parts portion only of your Limited Warranty for your TiVo DVR will be extended for the term of your commitment period.
* After 1 year your TiVo Package will continue at the then-applicable monthly rate for a 1 year TiVo Package.
* Subject to full terms and conditions for TiVo Payment Plans.
* Not Eligible for Multi-Service Discount.

I like the last one. Get two or more of these babies and you'll be paying full service plans on all of them!! :eek:


Oh. I forgot. You mentioned XBOX is a better analogy. Well, figure this one out. I read an article some time ago of this individual who bought an XBOX. He NEVER subscribed to MS in any way shape or form. He customized the startup screen the way he wanted it. Bought the games through normal channels but somehow he got hooked up to the Internet by mistake. Probably hit the wrong key or something. Well, MS felt it necessary to erase EVERYTHING he did and revert the XBOX back to what MS wanted it to be. What right did MS have? None. The XBOX belonged to that individual who bought it. Not MS. MS apparently thought it was still theirs and he had no rights to it. I would hate MS if I came home only to find my computer set up the way MS wanted it to be. I would promptly become a MAC user! :D

[Scott D]

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure this TiVo is a fine machine. One of the best. You know, all that good stuff!

All I want is a fair deal price. Not jacked up way too high that only the rich can afford it.

Let's be fair about this. Is not the cost of this machine ridiculously high? Would not a price of $299.00 be more fair? Since I know I can do nothing to change the Subscription plans, I can only voice my opinion of them.

We all know we are going to have to pay for some kind of plan, right? Why not sett the machine for a cheaper price, get it out in the marketplace ond collect paybacks from the plans out there. If anything, that's a more fair deal. It beats having to pay an arm and a leg for the machine AND the other arm and leg for the service plan. Then you'll have no way to use the remote. Remember? You gave your arms and legs to TiVo! :p

[eisenb11]

I'll try to address a few of these.

I seriously agree that the cost of this TiVo is too high.

Yes, it *is* high right now, but it'll come down.

Ok, you got it. If I want an upgrade or more functions or whatever, buy the software. Treat it like a GPS. If you want to update the map file BUY THE PROGRAM!!!! If not, and you're happy with what you have, fine. I think the choice should be ours. Not TiVo's or anybody else's.

Unfortunately, that's not how Tivo's business model works. As I said, they exist to sell their service. They're not a traditional hardware company that makes money by selling Tivo *units*. The hardware is a necessary means to an end.

I think that would be a fair and reasonable solution. Customize your TiVo. If you want all the bells and whistles, then pay for them. If not, don't. If all you need is Season Passes and Wishlists but not the showcases and such, that should be our decision.

That adds complexity and complexity adds costs. I doubt it would save Tivo any money to do this, it'll only cost them money. They still have to do all the backend stuff whether you use those features or not. If Tivo can't afford to perform backend duties it goes broke.

I'm not a cheap person. I just can't see any justification for this price as well as my wife in addition to the people of whom I work with feels the same way I do.

Fair enough.

Why do I have to pay TiVo more money just to record free TV? Via Antenna.

You're not paying Tivo to watch free TV. You're paying Tivo for the TVguide service, etc. If all you want is a dumb DVR (i.e. tapeless VCR) there are other solutions out there. Sony has just released a cablecard DVR that would do that. It's only in Japan right now, no idea when it hits the states.

Not to mention the stupid contract.
* 1 year TiVo® service commitment required. (sounds like a cable service)

Sorta need the service or the Tivo is a doorstop. This also shows that Tivo is not a hardware company, they're trying to sell a service.

* Early termination fee up to $200 applies if canceled prior to commitment end date, except as permitted by 30 day Money Back Guarantee.

A bit harsh, but it makes sense. Not for the S3, but for the S2. They lose money when they sell a S2 at those rock bottom prices... this gets their money back.


* Includes TiVo Service and a TiVo® Series3™ DMR.
* Money Back Guarantee applies only to initial activations if canceled within 30 days and DVR is returned for a full refund.

Normal stuff...


* The parts portion only of your Limited Warranty for your TiVo DVR will be extended for the term of your commitment period.

Oooh, is this part really in there? This is actually really good for the consumer!


* After 1 year your TiVo Package will continue at the then-applicable monthly rate for a 1 year TiVo Package.
* Subject to full terms and conditions for TiVo Payment Plans.
* Not Eligible for Multi-Service Discount.

Normal stuff... although the last one seems a bit weird...


I read an article some time ago of this individual who bought an XBOX. He NEVER subscribed to MS in any way shape or form. He customized the startup screen the way he wanted it. Bought the games through normal channels but somehow he got hooked up to the Internet by mistake. Probably hit the wrong key or something. Well, MS felt it necessary to erase EVERYTHING he did and revert the XBOX back to what MS wanted it to be. What right did MS have? None. The XBOX belonged to that individual who bought it. Not MS. MS apparently thought it was still theirs and he had no rights to it. I would hate MS if I came home only to find my computer set up the way MS wanted it to be. I would promptly become a MAC user! :D

It's against the license of the XBOX to modify the unit. Yeah I know it sucks, but those are the terms. MS gives you the right to use the XBOX, but sets ground rules. The person didn't follow the rules.

He's lucky MS only reset the settings instead of bricking the machine!

Within the last few years the concept of "ownership" has changed a lot. Now, rather than outright owning something, we often find that we're purchasing the right to "use" something instead.

It's an odd concept, but one that's growing in use. I won't argue for or against this, it's just the way things are heading.

[Kablemodem]

Fair means a benefit to both parties. Your getting a discount at the expense of TiVo's trying to make a profit does not sound fair. TiVo is a luxury item. If you don't want to pay the price asked you don't have to buy it. You can still watch TV without TiVo, or watch it with a less expensive type of TiVo, or watch it with a TiVo wannabe knockoff for a fraction of the price.

[tgibbs]

You seem to misunderstand me. How is it that all these other DVR's I have mentioned does not require a subscription plan but TiVo does?

The short answer is that they are different businesses, with different costs, and different business models. The long answer is that just about everybody except MythTV (which relies upon public information sources that may or may not continue to be available in the future) does require a subscription of some sort. Both cable and satellite are subscription services, and they generally charge a bit more if you have a DVR capable cable box. Of course, since they are also selling content, they can move the costs around and obscure what you are actually paying for. For example, they can roll most of the cost of the DVR and the service into the basic subscription fee (so you are paying for it whether you have a one or not) which makes it possible for them to then offer the DVR for an apparently lower fee and upfront cost (because you were already paying for it and didn't know it). In fact, while charges seem to be varying from cable company to cable company, many people end up paying only a little more for the CableCards and TiVo subscription than they were paying previously for their cable box. Of course, you have to pay up front for the TiVo box, but then its yours, and you can do such things as open it up and add a larger hard drive (my DirecTiVo 10-250 holds 70 hours of HD, something no cable company DVR can match).

[tgibbs]

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure this TiVo is a fine machine. One of the best. You know, all that good stuff!

All I want is a fair deal price. Not jacked up way too high that only the rich can afford it.

Let's be fair about this. Is not the cost of this machine ridiculously high? Would not a price of $299.00 be more fair? Since I know I can do nothing to change the Subscription plans, I can only voice my opinion of them.

We all know we are going to have to pay for some kind of plan, right? Why not sett the machine for a cheaper price, get it out in the marketplace ond collect paybacks from the plans out there. If anything, that's a more fair deal. It beats having to pay an arm and a leg for the machine AND the other arm and leg for the service plan. Then you'll have no way to use the remote. Remember? You gave your arms and legs to TiVo! :p

$299 is almost certainly less than it costs TiVo to build the box. Don't forget that the S3 has some capabilities that cable boxes don't have, such as dual over-the-air tuners. So is it really "fair" to expect TiVo to take a loss on the hardware? Keep in mind that TiVo is a company that has never made a profit. Is it "fair" to expect TiVo and its investors to take a loss? Of course, a videogame console manufacturer may offer the console as a loss leader because they know that they'll make it up by soaking you for the games. And a cable company may be willing to offer you a cable box for "free" (plus a modest monthly rental cost) because they know you'll likely buy more expensive services and they can soak you for those. But TiVo can't realistically soak their customers for the subscription price, because they are already charging about as much as the market can bear for the service.

[sjcbulldog]

A couple of general observations to stir things up a bit.

1)
The price of an item is not necessarily related to the cost of an item. The price of an item is driven by supply and demand and the business model of the company selling the goods. Items are sold at multiples of the cost of manufacturing all the time. Items are also sold at near or below cost all the time for a variety of reasons.

2)
The only vote either yea or nay we can really make is with our pocketbook.

3)
There are several people in my office that do not have Tivo today that are considering Tivo in the next month or so if the Series 3 really works out for me with comcast and the cablecards. They want a HDTV solutions that supports cable TV (or at least a wide variety of channels) that is better than the comcast DVR. One has direct tv and a built in series 1 that is so slow that he is ready to toss the box. The other picks up OTA stations and uses a media center box to record HD. If this is any indications, the Series 3 will add subscribers to the Tivo subscriber base. Tivo needs this.

4)
Tivo needs to start making money soon so they will be around in the long term and not be bought by someone who may provide a much inferior product.

Just my $0.02 worth
sjcbulldog

[N7TB]

Wow, I sure am sorry I offended so many folks by starting this tread. I seldom have much time to devote to digging through the site. My wife is a paraplegic and I am her caregiver, so my time at the computer is limited. I do check into this site when I can because I love my Tivo. I just found out about the existence of the S3 earlier this week. Again, sorry for causing so many folks so much frustration.

[MickeS]

Wow, I sure am sorry I offended so many folks by starting this tread. I seldom have much time to devote to digging through the site. My wife is a paraplegic and I am her caregiver, so my time at the computer is limited. I do check into this site when I can because I love my Tivo. I just found out about the existence of the S3 earlier this week. Again, sorry for causing so many folks so much frustration.

This is the internet - don't apologize, reply with a snide remark about the others instead. ;)

You didn't cause anyone any frustration that they didn't bring on themselves...

[bicker]

The short answer is that they are different businesses, with different costs, and different business models. Which matters to the customer not-at-all. Normally, I'd say that this is a reflection of what customers want -- that TiVo is reading the market and putting together their business model in a manner so as to best capitalize on the customers out there. Unfortunately, I cannot do that this time. I think TiVo is on the ropes, trying desparately to figure out a way to stop losing money, and they simply see no other options. So they've put together an offering that a shockingly-high number of their greatest fans feels is outrageous, even for the early adopters of new technology.

Someone earlier in the thread bemoaned that the forum was cluttered with threads like this. It sure wasn't that way for the S2 launch. Something is different. This time, it appears to me, the price IS too high, especially given the risk that technology changes by cable companies over the next year or two could render the S3 into a very expensive paperweight.

[Monty2_2001]

Someone earlier in the thread bemoaned that the forum was cluttered with threads like this. It sure wasn't that way for the S2 launch. Something is different. This time, it appears to me, the price IS too high, especially given the risk that technology changes by cable companies over the next year or two could render the S3 into a very expensive paperweight.

I totally agree on the last part. I refuse to pay $800 for something that may not even work in a year. If I knew it would last 4 years, then maybe I would. SDV and CC2 are coming, and it's bad news for S3.

[Timber]

Answer to the OP:

No.

-=Tim=-

[tgibbs]

Which matters to the customer not-at-all. Normally, I'd say that this is a reflection of what customers want -- that TiVo is reading the market and putting together their business model in a manner so as to best capitalize on the customers out there. Unfortunately, I cannot do that this time. I think TiVo is on the ropes, trying desparately to figure out a way to stop losing money, and they simply see no other options. So they've put together an offering that a shockingly-high number of their greatest fans feels is outrageous, even for the early adopters of new technology.

Someone earlier in the thread bemoaned that the forum was cluttered with threads like this. It sure wasn't that way for the S2 launch. Something is different. This time, it appears to me, the price IS too high, especially given the risk that technology changes by cable companies over the next year or two could render the S3 into a very expensive paperweight.

The question was why the pricing structure is different for Tivo than for cable companies and the like, not why you should care.

As for TiVo being "on the ropes," things are actually looking rather good for the company. They just won a major patent case against Dish. Unless Dish gets the judgement reversed on appeal, TiVo is looking at a big payday as well as ongoing royalties from Dish and probably anybody else who sell PVRs. They have a new deal with Comcast. The S3 was released to strong reviews and strong demand, despite the usual sour grapes grousing from people who are upset that they might have to wait a year or two before the price drops into their range.

[vman41]

Someone earlier in the thread bemoaned that the forum was cluttered with threads like this. It sure wasn't that way for the S2 launch. Something is different.

The design goal of the Series 2 was to be cheaper to produce than the Series 1 as a way to get broader market acceptance. I missed the launch, but I remember pleny of later threads asserting TiVo was missing it's growth expecations because the S2 still wasn't cheap enough.

[Scott D]

If TiVo is a software service, then the machine "needs" to cost less.

Unless someone else is making the hardware for TiVo.

[Dssturbo1]

If TiVo is a software service, then the machine "needs" to cost less.

Unless someone else is making the hardware for TiVo.
it is a subscription based business model, like cable, like sat like cell phones etc...

that is their bottom line but they will take advantage of the early adopters of the higher tech items. remember the moto razr phone. it came out at like $500 retail cost and about a year later or less it was $99 or less plus the sub of course :)

[bicker]

I missed the launch, but I remember pleny of later threads asserting TiVo was missing it's growth expecations because the S2 still wasn't cheap enough.Correct, but nothing like this.

[tgibbs]

If TiVo is a software service, then the machine "needs" to cost less.

Unless someone else is making the hardware for TiVo.

So basically, you are saying that TiVo shouldn't have introduced the S3, since it is economically impossible for it to cost less at this time.

But I think all of the people lining up to buy them would probably disagree.