Tivo Software - Ideas for Performance Improvements

[dolfer]

Anyone who has been on these forums lately knows there are numerous complaints about the 7.3.1 (aka KidZone) update slowing down their machines. Welcome to my world.

My slow down problems began all the way back to the days of 7.1. Some of you might remember my 7.1 rants! (http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=239779) ;) Things got a little better with 7.2.2, but now things are unbearably slow once again.

In the beginning, my Series2 was noticeably "snappier" than either of our Series1 boxes. Now my wife's Series1 seems like a speed demon by comparison. It's sad to see Tivo software suffer from the same kind of bloat that Microsoft is famous for.

I think it would be a great idea if Tivo added an "uninstall" feature that would allow users to uninstall unwanted modules. Also the ability to stop certain services would allow even greater control and performance improvements. Are these types of features a possibility? Is there any word of a fix going out for 7.3.1 any time soon? It's time for Tivo to worry about performance for awhile! I would gladly trade in some features for SPEED!

[rainwater]

It's time for Tivo to worry about performace for awhile! I would gladly trade in some features for SPEED!

TiVo's new strategy is to try to add new features they can sell to the general public. The whole reason they added KidZone was to get retailers like Radio Shack to carry them. I do not think we will ever see the day again where TiVo focuses on usability as much as they use to.

[dolfer]

TiVo's new strategy is to try to add new features they can sell to the general public. The whole reason they added KidZone was to get retailers like Radio Shack to carry them. I do not think we will ever see the day again where TiVo focuses on usability as much as they use to.

I have no problem with Tivo adding features. We should just have the ability to turn off the ones we don't want. Especially if they are causing major performance issues.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I have no problem with Tivo adding features. We should just have the ability to turn off the ones we don't want. Especially if they are causing major performance issues.

It hasn't really been shown that KidZone caused the performance issue (or that removing it would fix it.)

[rainwater]

It hasn't really been shown that KidZone caused the performance issue (or that removing it would fix it.)

No, I think the problem was when they added KidZone, they apparently had different standards. I believe that different people worked on the KidZone release than in earlier releases. Some of the changes they made showed they a lack of knowledge of the TiVo hardware (things like not knowing some TiVos don't have a certain buttons). I just see no way that the original developers would of made some of the stupid changes in 7.3.x (i.e. removing the 5 minute look ahead in the guide). The original developers of the TiVo software focused on usability. It seems the new practice is to throw usability out the window and to just tinker with stuff that already works.

[MickeS]

I have no problem with Tivo adding features. We should just have the ability to turn off the ones we don't want. Especially if they are causing major performance issues.

But you CAN turn off KidZone (or rather, choose to not turn it on).

[VanGoghLikesTivo]

I have never activated KidZone and my S2 has been much slower in responding since the last software update. I have yet to see any acknowledgment by TiVo of this problem or any ETA on a solution.

[dolfer]

But you CAN turn off KidZone (or rather, choose to not turn it on).

Whether or not its specifically KidZone is irrelevant, I would trade all of the fancy bells and whistles that have been added since the beginning of Tivo to get back decent performance!

I want to efficiently record and watch TV! That's it! I could care less about the other stuff. Especially if it's going to lead to a slow down.

The Tivo software is becoming a big, poorly coded, and bloated hog like Microsoft Office and Windows. No matter how fast chips get, my computing experience is no different than it was 10 years ago because of bloatware. I installed OpenOffice on my father-in-law's PC and was amazed at how fast it was. I feel the need for speed! C'mon Tivo!

[theone]

I have noticed the slowness on my s2 but didnt realize how bad it was 'till I fired up my new s2 dt tonight. My new box still has the older software and its much faster. I wish there was a way to stop the software update. I need my guide data.

[Stylin]

I have never activated KidZone and my S2 has been much slower in responding since the last software update. I have yet to see any acknowledgment by TiVo of this problem or any ETA on a solution.
Ditto.
It's frustraing when the software updates with a feature you ave no use for, but are stuck with all the problems it brings.

[dolfer]

I have noticed the slowness on my s2 but didnt realize how bad it was 'till I fired up my new s2 dt tonight. My new box still has the older software and its much faster. I wish there was a way to stop the software update. I need my guide data.

I think Tivo has set a precedent that it doesn't offer user options. This became evident to me early on when Tivo decided to change the amount of fast forward auto correct. Instead of offering users the choice to keep the original amount, it decided to force users to adopt to the new level. Just because there are a few morons out there with the reflexes of a 90 year old, doesn't mean you should make wholesale changes!

[Stormspace]

TiVo's new strategy is to try to add new features they can sell to the general public. The whole reason they added KidZone was to get retailers like Radio Shack to carry them. I do not think we will ever see the day again where TiVo focuses on usability as much as they use to.

That's because people don't find value in the usability of the TiVo and because usability is hard to define in 30 seconds. TiVo should use the usability to keep users and use features to attract them. KidZone is important in that respect, and for the S3 it will be the only distinguishing feature of the unit.

For the S2 KidZone has to have created a PR nightmare for TiVo and now that more media outlets are picking it up I bet we'll see some sort of fix for it soon.

If you ask me though, that "Get KidZone" menu item should have just triggered a download and installation so those people that didn't want it could have passed it by. Not everyone needs KidZone.

[MediaLivingRoom]

It's very frustrating that the remote button and actions on the screen are soo slow.

[rr919]

And here I thought my machine was just getting old! Whew!! Nice to know the slow down is from the upgrade. But bad because . . . . well, it's SLOW!!! Tivo needs 'Go Back' - I'd gladly roll back a few upgrades!

[dolfer]

And here I thought my machine was just getting old! Whew!! Nice to know the slow down is from the upgrade. But bad because . . . . well, it's SLOW!!! Tivo needs 'Go Back' - I'd gladly roll back a few upgrades!

If Tivo would add the features I mentioned such as uninstall and the ability to control services, performance could be greatly enhanced.

People with older boxes or those who crave fast performance over features could turn off all of the bells and whistles that are slowing things down!

[Dennis Wilkinson]

If Tivo would add the features I mentioned such as uninstall and the ability to control services, performance could be greatly enhanced.

People with older boxes or those who crave fast performance over features could turn off all of the bells and whistles that are slowing things down!

Unless you've run a profiler against the things that are slow, or have instrumented TiVo's source code, you have no way of knowing what's slowing things down or if modularization like you've described would help or hurt.

[rainwater]

Unless you've run a profiler against the things that are slow, or have instrumented TiVo's source code, you have no way of knowing what's slowing things down or if modularization like you've described would help or hurt.

Plus, it would be a nightmare to support. The whole point is for TiVo to try to get all S2 users on a single software platform. They worked hard in the last few years to do that. To go away from that doesn't help the development process.

[dolfer]

Unless you've run a profiler against the things that are slow, or have instrumented TiVo's source code, you have no way of knowing what's slowing things down or if modularization like you've described would help or hurt.

I think it's just common sense. The more crap you add, the slower it's going to get. You can't tell me that all of the new services that are now running aren't slowing things down. Especially for original Series2 owners. These things are using up memory and CPU cycles, right? As more and more processes run, performance has to be negatively effected. Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe I do not know something about the Tivo hardware/software that you do.

[chavez]

That's because people don't find value in the usability of the TiVo and because usability is hard to define in 30 seconds.

if it takes 30 seconds to change the channel 3 times, people will understand the definition and value of useability!

[Stormspace]

I do see a 10 second slow down, but only when coming back to the tivo after it's been idle for a while. Once it's gotten past the first click it responds normally.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I think it's just common sense. The more crap you add, the slower it's going to get. You can't tell me that all of the new services that are now running aren't slowing things down. Especially for original Series2 owners. These things are using up memory and CPU cycles, right? As more and more processes run, performance has to be negatively effected. Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe I do not know something about the Tivo hardware/software that you do.

Actually, my point is that I don't know any more about the TiVo hardware and software than you do ,at least as it relates to performance. I do know, from a lot of time spent optimizing algorithms and systems, that people have very strong gut feelings about what causes performance issues that are very, very often wrong. The only people who do know enough to say where performance is poor (in the code) are those who have measured/sampled/profiled the running system.

KidZone and other features were added, sure. Things are slow even with them turned off. Take KidZone - logically, checking to see if it's on or off, and just doing "the old thing" when it's off, doesn't seem like a lot of overhead, so my gut tells me that that's not likely to be the issue. But I can only assume that the code doesn't run through lots of the KidZone logic when it's off, unless I observe what the system is doing. And if it really isn't going through the KidZone logic, then you can do all the work you want to make KidZone faster and it won't help.

[vman41]

I'd guess the problem isn't the CPU cycles the features take, but the memory they consume.

[ZeoTiVo]

I think it's just common sense. The more crap you add, the slower it's going to get.

there is no question that 7.2.1 ran slower than 7.2.2 yet they did not take anything out - they most likely measured what was slowing it down and tweaked that in 7.2.2. If they added in modularization then that would also be another add of logic to go through and slow things down as well. This is not like Office or Lotus Notes email where you are installing other software onto an operating system but a unified app that is the TiVo app.

I see the point you are making that the latest updates with more features slow things down and that is the overall symptom but it seems to me that it is more in how features are added and the overall code design vs just the fact that some feature is present or not.

after that it is in the amount of memory each feature adds as overhead vs the amount of memory available though I suspect that is more HME vs cache of the screens contention than any one feature

[RoyK]

there is no question that 7.2.1 ran slower than 7.2.2 yet they did not take anything out - they most likely measured what was slowing it down and tweaked that in 7.2.2. If they added in modularization then that would also be another add of logic to go through and slow things down as well. This is not like Office or Lotus Notes email where you are installing other software onto an operating system but a unified app that is the TiVo app.

I see the point you are making that the latest updates with more features slow things down and that is the overall symptom but it seems to me that it is more in how features are added and the overall code design vs just the fact that some feature is present or not.

after that it is in the amount of memory each feature adds as overhead vs the amount of memory available though I suspect that is more HME vs cache of the screens contention than any one feature

I read this then had to walk away and think. Something isn't right here. Came back and read it again. Dang. I couldn't believe it. I actually agree with Zeo!!

(Must mean we're both wrong :D )

[omelet1978]

Tivo software may not be superfast, but I can tell you first hand that it's still the best UI out there. I recently bought a DTV HR20-700 so I could record high definition. I actually thought about selling my tivo on ebay, but after playing with the dtv dvr I changed my mind. Tivo is so much more user friendly and easy to use. I actually have it hooked up to a second tv and I watch that more than my primary tv which I just use for High definition stuff now.

[RavenFan]

KidZone and other features were added, sure. Things are slow even with them turned off. Take KidZone - logically, checking to see if it's on or off, and just doing "the old thing" when it's off, doesn't seem like a lot of overhead, so my gut tells me that that's not likely to be the issue. But I can only assume that the code doesn't run through lots of the KidZone logic when it's off, unless I observe what the system is doing. And if it really isn't going through the KidZone logic, then you can do all the work you want to make KidZone faster and it won't help.

Good points.

While it certainly makes sense on the surface that KidZone On/Checking would solve the performance problems, we don't know what other changes had to happen behind the scenes to allow the KidZone features to work in the first place.

I don't know the real problem, but I'll offer my half-baked guess anyway. I seriously doubt that the TiVo is so CPU bound that it would take 5 seconds to load and display guide date. My guess is that the new software release is disk i/o bound, probably due to some change that the developers made to the system database that stores all of the program info. There is a good chance that new data fields were added that required the TiVo to make different database queries than it did before. Since there would only be one copy of the database regardless of whether KidZone was installed or not, ALL queries might have to be changed in order to retrieve guid data (Runnig KidZOne or not).

Changing database structure and queries can seriously impact perfromance, especially if the indexes of the database tables are not tuned effectively. Also, inefficiencies are exposed even more when there is more data present in the database.

It seems like some people have experienced longer guide delay times than others. I would be curious to hear if people with digital cable are having more problems that those with just basic cable. Digital cable would have many more stations, with much more guide data to sort through in order to populate the guide display.

[MichaelK]

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I don't know the real problem, but I'll offer my half-baked guess anyway. I seriously doubt that the TiVo is so CPU bound that it would take 5 seconds to load and display guide date. My guess is that the new software release is disk i/o bound, probably due to some change that the developers made to the system database that stores all of the program info. ...




the consensus of the hackign community is just that.

The CPU is fine, but the I/O to the disk and the small amount on on board ram is what slows it all down.

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Changing database structure and queries can seriously impact perfromance, especially if the indexes of the database tables are not tuned effectively. Also, inefficiencies are exposed even more when there is more data present in the database.


very true- in the past tivo changed the database structure or system for the guide and it sped things up. Dont know when it happened for the stand alones but when 3.x was upgraded to 6.x on the directv units it had a big positive effect.



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It seems like some people have experienced longer guide delay times than others. I would be curious to hear if people with digital cable are having more problems that those with just basic cable. Digital cable would have many more stations, with much more guide data to sort through in order to populate the guide display.


Seems to be that increasing the size of any of the databases slows the thing done. Channel list, now playing, todo, season passes, wish lists, some even thing thumbs up/down, so that seems to be the case. maybe the kidzone creates another list/database so there is somethign else to slow things down...



If I understand corectly- the hackers speculate that all those things are stored on the hard drive in tables and when the tivo goes to access them it needs to swap them into memory, but that takes a bit of time as the hard drive nees to always be recording and that gets priority (rightly soo). They speculate that if tivo put more memory on the motherboards so they could load all those things into memory so they were always availible then it would be better. I'm no programmer or engineer but that sounds logical to me. Apparently that's how the cable and Directv DVR's work (down side is when you powerdown the guide, todo list, etc all go bye bye and need to get recreated when you plug back in. )

The "cachecard" for the series 1 unit's apprently sped things up by caching those deadbases in a memeory buffer.

All that said- my series 3 and s2dt seem to be as slow as my S2 pioneer dvd unit. The 2 newer models supposedly havre more memory than the s2 pioneer so i'm not sure if memory matters?

Hopefully tivo can figure out a way to tweak their architecture to speed things along, but to be honest as long as it behaves correctly and records what i want and plays it back well with the proper response to the transport controls I'm fine with the slow menus. I figure every commercial I nike with the 30 second skip button more than makes up for the time i spend waiting in the now playing list.

I'd prefer they use the time instead for new features- namely content downloads. But to each his own...