Improving OTA HD picture on HR10-250

[Indiana627]

Just got my HR10-250 yesterday and love being able to record my OTA HD (our HD locals are not available from D* yet). I'm watching the Bills/Dolphins game in HD from my local CBS OTA going through the HR10 then to my TV via HDMI. The picture quality is not quite as good as if I were watching the game live with my antenna hooked up directly to the TV. I've got the HR10 outputting at 1080i, which is what CBS broadcasts in. The signal is pretty good in the 80s, so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to improve the PQ of my OTA HD on the HR10. Here's some ideas I have:

Get a better HDMI cable than the one that came with the unit (this is the cable I'm using).
Replace the two coax cables inside the HR10 - the ones that run from the OTA splitter to the OTA tuners - with better quality cables. Before I installed the unit, I took the lid off and checked out these cables due to reading other threads about them (the copper wire in them is so thin it's almost invisible). Would better quality RG-6 cables help?
Bypassing the HR10's OTA splitter altogether and run two RG-6 directly from my antenna's splitter to the HR10's OTA tuners (again an idea I read in other threads).

Would any of these help? Which order would you try making these changes in? Any other suggestions?

I appreciate the help.

[litzdog911]

I doubt that any of those things would help. The HR10's HDMI technology is now 3 years old, so it's not surprising that your TV's internal HDTV tuner produces better video.

1. I don't think a more expensive HDMI cable will help. Remember, you're dealing with a digital signal, not an analog signal. There's a lot of marketing hype behind high-end cables, but in my experience the cable included with the HR10-250 works just like much more expensive cables.

2. That might help improve your OTA reception, but it won't change the video quality .... unless you're seeing pixelation or video dropouts due to poor over-the-air reception. A signal in the 80's should be fine, though.

3. Same logic as #2 .... doubt it would make a difference with what you're seeing.

[TivoinTexas]

I am by no means an expert, but I change my output to 720p for sporting events and it seems to work better. I had read somewhere the 720 was better for quick action like sporting events and 1080 was better for movies.

I don't know if it's true, but it works for me.

[JoeSchueller]

You didn't list your TV type. That could go a long way in helping get some better info from the forum.

I completely agree with litzdog911. He's dead on.

TivoinTexas may be on to something. If you have a 720p native display with a lower quality scaler, you may want to output from your TiVo at 720p. It is the argument many of us are making for "native pass-thru" in reverse. It is possible that if you're watching on a 720p native display with a crappy scaler, let the TiVo do the scaling and see if it does any better. Personally, I believe my TV is the better scaler, but YMMV.

The other possibility is that your local CBS affiliate is multi-casting weather and other crap on their digital frequency. Do your have another way to get OTA in to your set? If they both look bad, then blame the local affiliate.

Good luck. Don't drop any $ on cables or antennas. You'll just be unhappy.

[Indiana627]

You didn't list your TV type.
I have a Sony KDF-E50A10 (as stated in my sig) that I bought in May 06 (manufacture date is Feb 06), so I imagine it's scaler is superior to the HR10s (it's native res is 720p). I also don't think it has anything to do with my local CBS stations sub channels because the PQ only got worse when I installed the HR10 - I've been watching CBS HD since May with my antenna hooked up directly to the TV and the PQ is better that way.

The HR10's HDMI technology is now 3 years old, so it's not surprising that your TV's internal HDTV tuner produces better video.
Would switching to the component cables make any difference? Any chance of upgrading the HDMI card in the HR10?

[Dssturbo1]

you should calibrate your sets inputs and hopefully that will help it look as good on all sources your watching.

[JoeSchueller]

Sorry, missed that in the sig. I should have read the original post more quickly.

I think PQ is suffering from the additional "hop" it needs to make thru the TiVo. I'd love to believe that the MPEG singnal that goes from your CBS affiliate's tower to your ATSC tuner in your TV, to your image processor in your TV is the exact same MPEG signal that goes from your CBS affiliate's tower, into the ATSC tuner in the HR10, out the HR10's buffer, on to the HR10's HDMI bus, in to your Sony's HDMI bus, and in to your TV's image processor is identical. This is a wild-ass-guess, but I'm assuming there is either an aditional D->A->D conversion that goes on in the HR10 or possibly some scaling or other processing that is done on the MPEG2 that comes in off the OTA tuner and out the HDMI cable. Whatever it is, your TV is sensitive enough to pick up on it.

You may want to poke around a bit on AVSForum to see if anyone out there can explain the entire signal path in your TV. My guess is that the path from the OTA tuner to the screen is "cleaner" (can't think of the right word, perhaps "unmolested") than the one that runs from the OTA tuner on the HR10 over HDMI to your screen.

Sorry for the ramble, I must need more coffee.

[bpratt]

Would switching to the component cables make any difference? Any chance of upgrading the HDMI card in the HR10?
I have the same model Sony except mine is only 42 inch. I originally connected my set to the HR10-250 using the HDMI connector and found the picture quality was not that great. After switching the output of the HR10-250 to 720p and spending a couple of hours adjusting the settings on the Sony TV, I finally got a picture that was nearly as good as from the OTA antenna. Then I switched to component cables from the HR10-250, made several adjustments to the TV and got a picture from the HR10-250 that is equal in quality from the OTA antenna.

Try the component connection. For me, it seems to work better than the HDMI into the Sony.

[Indiana627]

OK, I'll try that tonight. Thanks.

[JoeSchueller]

That's sad that going from digital (HDMI) to analog (component) and adding that D/A conversion actually creates an improvement.

[Indiana627]

Switching to component helped a lot. Watching the Yankees in HD on channel 95 is noticable better now.

[TyroneShoes]

I am by no means an expert, but I change my output to 720p for sporting events and it seems to work better. I had read somewhere the 720 was better for quick action like sporting events and 1080 was better for movies.

I don't know if it's true, but it works for me.
What makes 720p better than 1080i for fast moving content is the interlace artifacts in 1080i, which are based on the fact that adjacent lines are painted at the field rate (60 fields per second or 30 fps) which is 540 times slower than the line rate. This gives objects that move an opportunity to move "too much" between adjacent line scans to prevent artifacts from occuring. 720p does not suffer from this problem, and even has a line rate actually faster than 1080i, because it paints 60 frames per second (720 lines scanned in the same space of time, 1/60th of a second, that 1080i scans 540).

But in many cases, this only affects acquisition. If the source is captured progressively (720p or 1080p/24) and sent by 720p or 1080i to a non-1080p set, while 720p has no interlace artifacts, 1080i will still have them. If sent by 720p or 1080i to a true 1080p set with the proper deinterlacing, neither will have interlace artifacts.

But the fact that the HR10 has no native pass-through completely upsets the equation. 720p output for 720p material will of course not create interlace artifacts to any progressive display. But, set it to 1080i output and not only does 1080i output not remove the artifacts from 1080p/24-acquired content which would normally be removed for a true 1080p TV, it actually creates brand new interlace artifacts for both 720p and 1080p/24 content as a part of the rescaling to your display, which has to then convert that back again to progressive for any display other than a CRT.

In short, native pass-through is the only way to avoid this problem, unless you output at 720p, which somewhat spoils the benefits of a 1080p display. Even if you opt for 1080i output, the HR10 can't give you true 1080p scanning (no interlace artifacts)from true 1080p/24 content, while your 1080p TV actually can give you true 1080p scanning without interlace artifacts from 1080p/24 content.

So, 720p is definitely the output format of choice for 720p content. But for 1080i content, ironically 720p may also be the best choice. You have to trade off interlace artifacts for resolution, but that is probably worth it, especially for sets that don't deinterlace 1080i that well, which is almost every set produced before 2005. In most cases, setting the output rez for 1080i buys you very little, even on a true 1080p set.

[Indiana627]

After more testing, I find that SD outputs better through S-video and HD is better on component than HDMI. So now that I disconnect the HDMI, I can now use both S-video and component based on what the show is. Now I just have to try and teach my wife to change the TV input based on the show (yeah right - I just taught her how to switch to the DVD player!).

[Seminole]

I think I will try going back to component instead of the HDMI and see if things look better I have to say I was not that impressed with the HDMI whenm I hooked it up so maybe it is time to go back and start passing things in their native resoulution and see if I see a difference.