s3 1080i and 1080p

[elsteve]

...since the S3 doesn't support 1080p output, would it make sense to purchase a HDTV that doesn't have 1080p either? Seems to me with the 1080p sets just coming out, the earlier models without it should be a steal...

thoughts?

[lawilson2]

No one supports 1080p at this time. If you're getting a large set, I would go ahead and get one with it. I bought a Mitsubishi 62", and I figured if I paid that much for a TV, it might as well last me some years. S3 doesn't support 1080p output because no one is outputting (is that a word) at that level. I say invest for the future. Isn't that why we dummies are buying an $800 Tivo? :)

[eisenb11]

A 1080p TV would take the 1080i input and convert it to 1080p for display.

It'll have it's own internal de-interlacer and scaler to take care of tasks like this.

[lawilson2]

A 1080p TV would take the 1080i input and convert it to 1080p for display.

It'll have it's own internal de-interlacer and scaler to take care of tasks like this.

A 1080p tv does not upconvert from 1080i to 1080p. Where did you read this?

[lawilson2]

A 1080p tv does not upconvert from 1080i to 1080p. Where did you read this?

I stand corrected. My apologies.. :)


"Finally--and this may sound weird--but many 1080p televisions don't accept 1080p sources at all. In our experience, only the aforementioned HP can handle 1080p via its HDMI inputs--all other current 1080p HDTVs cannot. Instead, they upconvert 720p and 1080i sources to 1080p."
CNET LINK (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:LcVYKP-0keMJ:reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6361600-1.html+1080i+upconvert+to+1080p&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a)

Just know what whenever a device upconverts, you never get the true quality that it could get. It's like watching a 4:3 tv show in 16:9 just to fill your screen. Sure, it looks like HDTV since it fills the screen, but there are distortions. Just food for thought; cherrio! (I have always wanted to sign off saying that!)

[eisenb11]

lawilson2,

True, 1080i upconverted to 1080p won't be as good as true 1080p, but where are you going to get 1080p native into your TV?

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are capable of 1080p out. So is a computer (but good luck finding 1080p content). Aside from those 3, everything else will be upconverted.

As far as Tivo's go... HD Cable/Satellite/ATSC are 480p, 720p, and 1080i... none are 1080p.

If you want the best upconverting possible you'll have the Tivo record at native then run the native output into a dedicated scaler unit for optimal 1080p conversion.

This route isn't cheap though and will cost a premium. If you're curious do some research on Realta HQV and Gennum. If you're really loaded look up Terranex.

Faroudja was king of the hill, but they're not so hot anymore. DVDO is also really good, but for up to 1080i, not so uber in 1080p with their current product line.

[GoHokies!]

I just got my TV a month ago, and I could tell (although I admit that it's only 1 subjective data point) a difference between Samsung's -86W model from last year that doesn't do 1080p and the -87W that includes it. I can only assume that other quality improvements were made to make it look better with the same (non 1080p) source.

It was a bit more expensive though, I think around 4-500 dollars at the 56" price point. I would highly recommend the TV to anyone though, I love it.

[dsm363]

I've got 1080p going into my Sony SXRD TV through an external scaler so it is possible.

[Monty2_2001]

Why bother getting a 1080i input model at this point? Unless you are really on a budget and need last year's technology right now, just save up a little bit and wait until you can get an HLS Samsung or something.

The prices of the HLS's are falling surprisingly fast.. To me anyway.

[bicker]

Just know what whenever a device upconverts, you never get the true quality that it could get. From what I was able to tell, by personal inspection, comparing a 1080i HDTV to a 1080p HDTV, by the same manufacturer, in the same model range, in the same model year, drawing off the same 1080i source, the 1080p PQ was better. It just is. The upconversion from 1080i to 1080p doesn't actually degrade the quality at all, and the 1080p set (in my case) appears to have better display circuitry than its 1080i cousin.

[TiVoToo]

I would add that a 1080p HDTV does not upconvert nor scale a 1080i input. It only deinterlaces it. Thus, there are none of the potential artifacts that can result from scaling. Deinterlaced 1080i video on a good 1080p display will look better than on a 1080i display. The 1080p HDTV would have to scale all other formats (as well as de-interlace 480i).

I have a Sony A2000 1080p HDTV. I'm still trying to decide which format to select for output on the S3. I'm sure the Sony has a better internal scaler than the S3 (the difference between a $800 piece of equipment, and a $3500 piece of equipment). However, with the S3 in Native, every change in source input causes momentary loss of video which can be distracting. On the other hand, I don't normally channel surf with a DVR so the distraction is moot. I plan to play with it this weekend and see if I can subjectively tell if there is any difference in the scaler performance of the S3 compared to the A2000.

[bkdtv]

I would add that a 1080p HDTV does not upconvert nor scale a 1080i input. It only deinterlaces it. Thus, there are none of the potential artifacts that can result from scaling. Deinterlaced 1080i video on a good 1080p display will look better than on a 1080i display. The 1080p HDTV would have to scale all other formats (as well as de-interlace 480i).
What he said.

Definitely go for a 1080p set this year. Circuit City just recently had the Sony SXRD 50" set on sale for $2024. The 60" version is available for well under $3000. I've also seen 1080p DLPs well under $2000.

If you have a dedicated home theater room, consider a 1080p front projector like this (http://tapeworkstexas.com/sony_vplvw50_sxrd_projector.html). Several ~$4000 1080p digital front projectors were just announced at CEDIA.

The larger the screen and the closer you sit, the more difference 1080p will make.

[nathanziarek]

Just a quick note -- the Westinghouse 42w2 an 37w3 both accept & display 1080p, the 37" on two DVI ad one HDMI port, all for a very nice price. Check out AVSForum for reviews -- there is not a quality/price combo anywhere near this. Of course, you also can't find one in stock :-)

Now, if you are throwing down $800 for an S3, you might want to spend a little more to rid yourself of the few problems the Westy's have, but still, a better deal does not exist.

[loubob57]

I'm sure the Sony has a better internal scaler than the S3 (the difference between a $800 piece of equipment, and a $3500 piece of equipment).
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There's a lot of other stuff that makes the TV cost $3500 rather than $800. But definitely experiment with it. And I'd like to know what seems to work best since I have the previous model SXRD (50"). I was assuming that I'd either want the S3 to put out 1080i all the time or to pass through the native res of the recording and have the TV scale if it needs to. Having the S3 fixed at 720p is right out.

Now if TiVo will just ship me that S3 I'll be all set! Then I can play around and experiment with this stuff. :)

[eisenb11]

Oh another note. Make sure to check out the TV before buying it... my neighbor bought a 1080P Samsung (don't know the model) and I'm very dissappointed in it.

My 768P plasma (Marantz PD5040D) decimates that 1080P Samsung in quality... even when I remove my dedicated de-interlacing and scaling hardware.

Not sure what the deal is, but I was expecting a lot more from his unit...

[ejennis]

Oh another note. Make sure to check out the TV before buying it... my neighbor bought a 1080P Samsung (don't know the model) and I'm very dissappointed in it.

My 768P plasma (Marantz PD5040D) decimates that 1080P Samsung in quality... even when I remove my dedicated de-interlacing and scaling hardware.

Not sure what the deal is, but I was expecting a lot more from his unit...


Is his Samsung a DLP Unit or an LCD/Plasma?

-Eric

[eisenb11]

Is his Samsung a DLP Unit or an LCD/Plasma?

-Eric

It was a DLP unit, rear projection... the difference in quality between our units is in the "no contest" territory... not even close...

[adventurelarry]

I would add that a 1080p HDTV does not upconvert nor scale a 1080i input. It only deinterlaces it. Thus, there are none of the potential artifacts that can result from scaling. Deinterlaced 1080i video on a good 1080p display will look better than on a 1080i display. The 1080p HDTV would have to scale all other formats (as well as de-interlace 480i).

I have a Sony A2000 1080p HDTV. I'm still trying to decide which format to select for output on the S3. I'm sure the Sony has a better internal scaler than the S3 (the difference between a $800 piece of equipment, and a $3500 piece of equipment). However, with the S3 in Native, every change in source input causes momentary loss of video which can be distracting. On the other hand, I don't normally channel surf with a DVR so the distraction is moot. I plan to play with it this weekend and see if I can subjectively tell if there is any difference in the scaler performance of the S3 compared to the A2000.


Please share your findings. I have the XBR2 on order, and can only live vicariously for the next two weeks or so.


--Larry

[pablop]

Just a quick note -- the Westinghouse 42w2 an 37w3 both accept & display 1080p...

I have the 42w2 connected to the S3 via HDMI and it does a great job. You are correct about bang for the buck on these Westinghouse monitors - a 42", 1080p LCD for under 2K is great! I got mine from Crutchfield.com.

I also have an HTPC connected to it via VGA running at 1920x1080 (no DVI output on the PC). And the XBox connected via component looks spectacular.

[ejennis]

It was a DLP unit, rear projection.


Part of the issue you might be noticing then is the "wobulation" effect that DLP Rear projectors use to get the full picture. The chips are only half resolution, instead of 1920 x 1080, they are 960 x 1080 and they dither the mirror to get the other half of the pixels. TI calls this SmoothPicture, a feature I guess.

-Eric

[eisenb11]

Part of the issue you might be noticing then is the "wobulation" effect that DLP Rear projectors use to get the full picture. The chips are only half resolution, instead of 1920 x 1080, they are 960 x 1080 and they dither the mirror to get the other half of the pixels. TI calls this SmoothPicture, a feature I guess.

-Eric

Hmm perhaps. What I've been noticing is that the colors appear splotchy and the image is very blocky, jaggy, and bad.

I initially thought this was due to incorrect STB settings so I fixed that on his box... but the picture still looked bad.

Thought it could be bad de-interlacing/scaling perforance so I switched to HD... and that looks pretty bad too, albeit better than analog.

[MickeS]

I have the 42w2 connected to the S3 via HDMI and it does a great job. You are correct about bang for the buck on these Westinghouse monitors - a 42", 1080p LCD for under 2K is great! I got mine from Crutchfield.com.


I have the same TV, but only hooked up from the PC to it via the VGA connection, in 1920*1080. I've watched some 1080p material on it and it looks really, really good - I could even tell the difference between the 1280*720 material and the same in 1920*1080, something I didn't think would be so easy.

I haven't had any problems at all with it, excellent value for the money.

Best Buy has it for $1619 right now.

[shady]

lawilson2,

but where are you going to get 1080p native into your TV?


Photos for a start. I've hooked up my laptop to my 1080p TV (yes it does input 1080p) and photos look spectacular. The problem is, it's a real hassle to keep hooking up the laptop etc.

Now to be able stream my photos from my PC to TiVo and view them in 1080p would have been excellent.

[JanS]

Okay I got a Sony XBR2 2 weeks ago and when my S3 TiVo gets here (soon I hope), which picture mode will give the best PQ? Granted I'm going to experiment and have fun. But what do the experts recommend?

Thanks,
--jans

[propermodulation]

Part of the issue you might be noticing then is the "wobulation" effect that DLP Rear projectors use to get the full picture. The chips are only half resolution, instead of 1920 x 1080, they are 960 x 1080 and they dither the mirror to get the other half of the pixels. TI calls this SmoothPicture, a feature I guess.

-Eric


Nope, the wobulation happens WAY too fast to ever be seen by the human eye. It's really a non issue, but all the tech head like to talk about it. I have seen both the Marantz PD5040D and the latest Sammy's and the difference that I have noticed is not nearly as dramatic as is stated. I would guess that there is some problem with either the TV or the source.

Also remember that the Marantz is significantly more $$$.

[eisenb11]

Photos for a start. I've hooked up my laptop to my 1080p TV (yes it does input 1080p) and photos look spectacular. The problem is, it's a real hassle to keep hooking up the laptop etc.

Now to be able stream my photos from my PC to TiVo and view them in 1080p would have been excellent.

Yes, but that counts as "output from a computer" which I believe was the 3rd item on my list of 3 items.

The only true 1080p sources out there right now are:

1. HD-DVD (2nd generation, not the 1st generation ones)
2. Blu-Ray
3. Output from a computer

There is also output from a scaler unit but that would be connected to the S3 output, not the input so it doesn't count in this scenario.

Everything else is below 1080P...

1. HDTV = 480p, 720p, 1080i
2. DVD & TV = 640x480i
3. EDTV = 640x480p
etc, etc...

[megazone]

Hmm perhaps. What I've been noticing is that the colors appear splotchy and the image is very blocky, jaggy, and bad.That doesn't sound normal for a Samsung HD set at all.

I have an HL-S6187W and it looks great. Extremely sharp and clear. One of the best pictures I've seen (which is why I bought it). It also accepts 1080p HDMI input, unlike a lot of 1080p sets, which I plan to use for PS3/Blu-ray.

[megazone]

1. HDTV = 480p, 720p, 1080i
2. DVD & TV = 640x480i
3. EDTV = 640x480p
etc, etc...480p is EDTV, be it 4:3 or 16:9. HDTV doesn't start until 720p - then 1080i and 1080p are officially part of HDTV.

[Kaldaien]

Get a nice SONY with 1080p DRC (like the SXRD models). It'll use Digital Reality Creation on ANY signal to upconvert it to 1080p, rather than using simple scan doubling and de-interlacing. Normal DRC just takes 480i signals and upconverts them to 480p/1080i. You'd really get no benefit if the TiVo could display at 1080p though, the TiVo would handle the de-interlacing minus any picture detailing your TV's upscaler might have. The TV's built-in upscaler's usually a lot better than any standalone box's.

[sockgap]

No one supports 1080p at this time.
Yeah they do. The big Sharp Aquos with 1080p was the first I noticed, and that was ages ago. All the big manufacturers make some 1080p LCD TVs now. Just try searching Amazon for 1080p LCD.

[MickeS]

Yeah they do. The big Sharp Aquos with 1080p was the first I noticed, and that was ages ago. All the big manufacturers make some 1080p LCD TVs now. Just try searching Amazon for 1080p LCD.

I think he meant that no HDTV broadcasts are in 1080p, thus there is not really a reason for TiVo to output it either.

Disc-based media supports 1080p however.

[yunlin12]

I have the 42w2 connected to the S3 via HDMI and it does a great job. You are correct about bang for the buck on these Westinghouse monitors - a 42", 1080p LCD for under 2K is great! I got mine from Crutchfield.com.

I also have an HTPC connected to it via VGA running at 1920x1080 (no DVI output on the PC). And the XBox connected via component looks spectacular.

What aspect ratio setting do you have your S3 output? I also have a 42w2, and expecting a S3 delivery soon. With the limited standard and fill modes only on 42w2, I hope S3 can be used to easily adjust aspect ratios depend on the shows. If you switch between a HD 16:9 show and a SD 4:3 with letterbox show, can you easily adjust the S3's output mode from regular to zoom?

Edit: nevermind, there's an "Aspect" button on the remote.

[jodell]

sockgap,

The other thing to keep in mind is that while many TVs output 1080p, few accept a 1080p input. The new models being released now are starting to correct this issue. I am sure by next year, the exception will be a TV without a 1080p input capability.

Jeff

[JakiChan]

I was told you'll pretty much never see 1080p on cable for a long time. 720p and 1080i are pretty similar in bandwidth requirements, and 1080p takes up way more (I would think it was 2x but I guess not) and in that space they can give you a lot more "digital cable" channels.

That being said, a 1080p set will make you pretty good to go for things like HD-DVD and Blue-ray.

Finally, 1080p sets are exact resolution, 1920x1080. Most 720p sets are something wierd. My Hitachi 50V500 is 1366x768. So even though it has a DVI port finding a resolution and timing settings to make it look good was a PITA. Most 1080p sets, from reports, just use the right resolution out of the box making your HTPC experience better. (They do have color range issues, though, so be sure to surf avsforums on that.)

[Stephen Tu]

Also note that for 1080p set, if it has proper inverse telecine deinterlacing for film content (as newer sets should, possibly missing on some 1st gen 1080p sets), 1080i input/output is a non-issue for 1080p24 film based content such as HD-DVD/Blu-ray. The set will take the fields, recognize the 3:2 pulldown pattern, merge them back together & the result will be no different than if you used 1080p input/output.

1080p input/output is really only beneficial for:
- computer output
- some hypothetical future video game system that could support it
- hooking up fancy expensive video processor for superior deinterlacing of video based content (some of these can cost as much or more than the TVs)
- 1080p *video* based content, which is basically non-existent today & unlikely to be broadcast anytime in the near future (only 1080p24/30 are part of ATSC spec, 1080p60 isn't & takes too much bandwidth). Available on disc format, maybe tiny chance.

[ashu]

Wow - how did I miss this thread? :D
Everything tat needs to be said already seems to have been ... in short, buy the 1080p TV for better pic quality. Especially considering MOST HD channels are 1080i!

Stephen Tu nicely covered the how-is-1080i60 from HDDVD players as good as 1080p (24/30) :)
The same (logic as the 1080p24 movie sources) applies to HDTV programming that are captured 1080p24/30 and telecined/transmitted as 1080i at higher framerates (60) with absolutely no loss. i.e. they ARE being reconverted (assuming your tv has a good inverse teleciner etc) to flawless 1080p. Unfortunately, there isn't much (if any?) programming other than movies on the premium HD movie channels being broadcast this way!


And ...


1. HDTV = 480p, 720p, 1080i
2. DVD & TV = 640x480i
3. EDTV = 640x480p
etc, etc...

Whoa, there, cowboy ... I see MZ already partially corrected you.

HD =1280x720 (720p) and 1920x1080 (1080p) ONLY (not 1440x1080i or 1280x1080i like Dish and DirecTV and some cable affiliates will try to tell ya!)

DVD and EDTV = 720x480 (480p) or 640x480

TV = 480i and lower (720x480 or 640x480, interlaced)

[brywalker]

Holy smokes there is a lot of confusion here.

OK.

1080i will look FAR better on a 1080p set than a 1080i or 720p set. This is because when the 1080i signal gets to the 1080p set, all it does is deinterlace. IT STILL DRAWS ALL 1080 LINES. You are not losing any information (with the exception of the CHANCE that the deinterlacer doesn't do a good job and introduces noise). With a 720p set, it will "scale down" the signal to 720p because that is what the display is.

Go with 1080p if you can afford it. You *WILL* notice a difference.

[TexasAg]

Yeah they do. The big Sharp Aquos with 1080p was the first I noticed, and that was ages ago. All the big manufacturers make some 1080p LCD TVs now. Just try searching Amazon for 1080p LCD.

Most 1080p sets display at 1080p but only accept up to 1080i.

[ashu]

Most 1080p sets display at 1080p but only accept up to 1080i.

More FUD ... no longer the case. Most newer (last year or so, onwards) 1080p sets accept 1080p inputs ... Sony SXRDs, generic LCDs (Sceptre, Westy, EyeFi), high end LCDs (Sony, Samsung, LG, Hitachi), DLPs (Mitsu, Samsung) ALL accept and display 1080p.

Sonya nd Sharp got away without including this feature for a while ... much to early-adopters' chagrin!