How is S3 picture?

[chart]

How is the picture on the S3? Can you see the compression when you are watching live HD TV or is it truly a pass through?

[pyrosas]

As far as I can tell from OTA HD, it is straight pass through for all 720p channel and the 1080i stuff get downsample ot 720p because I have it at fixed output at 720p. Haven't seen any compression artifacts show up yet.

[vman41]

I saw in the user guide that they recommend the 'native' resolution setting, which I questionable advice to me. My TV takes far longer switch input resolutions than my current ATSC tuners take to switch their scaler settings to take everything to 720p.

[etsolow]

How is the picture on the S3? Can you see the compression when you are watching live HD TV or is it truly a pass through?HD video is not recompressed by the S3. It is recorded directly to disk and played back at 100% of the original quality.

[snathanb]

I saw in the user guide that they recommend the 'native' resolution setting, which I questionable advice to me. My TV takes far longer switch input resolutions than my current ATSC tuners take to switch their scaler settings to take everything to 720p.

Same here... my admittedly low-end rear projection HD set sometimes doesn't come back after a resolution switch. I plan on keeping mine on a fixed resolution.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Will outputting in 720p help with sound synch? I know that when my DirecTiVo sends SD to my 720p TV, the TV takes a split second to process it, and the sound (which goes directly from the DirecTiVo to the sound system) is slightly but noticably off. So I'm guessing that if the S3 is doing the conversion instead of the TV, this will no longer be an issue?

[slowride]

I thought I read that standard definition (480i) signals such as from basic cable are upconverted to 480p on the S3. Is that true and can someone who has the S3 comment on how standard defintion tv looks on an hdtv set when fed by the S3?

[megazone]

I thought I read that standard definition (480i) signals such as from basic cable are upconverted to 480p on the S3. Is that true and can someone who has the S3 comment on how standard defintion tv looks on an hdtv set when fed by the S3?They're upconverted only if you tell the S3 to do so.

And SD TV looks fantastic.

[bearcat2000]

Who wouldn't want them to be upcoverted to 480p???

[talmania]

Who wouldn't want them to be upcoverted to 480p???

I absolutely do not want them upconverted to 480p. Anyone that has a better scaler/processor than what's inside the Tivo would want the same thing. Sure if you have an average TV the processing/scaler in the Tivo might be better but no way it touches the likes of DVDO's or Lumagen's offerings.

Give me the material in its native form everytime and let my dedicated video processor/scaler handle it.

[slowride]

MEGAZONE

Is your standard Definition signal fed from the analog connection on the S3 or are you getting it thru the cable card slots (ie, digital source) Thanks

[megazone]

Who wouldn't want them to be upcoverted to 480p???Anyone with a TV that has a better scaler than the S3. Or a TV that has different modes appropriate to different content formats. I don't have the S3 scale anything, it sends everything to my TV in Native.

[megazone]

Is your standard Definition signal fed from the analog connection on the S3 or are you getting it thru the cable card slots (ie, digital source) ThanksI think you're confused. Analog is always analog. CableCARDs are not a source, they're nothing more than decryption tokens. They're used ONLY for digital cable decryption and have nothing at all to do with antenna or analog cable.

I have both analog cable and digital cable SD content. Quality varies by the channel, but in general it is very good. Most of what I watch is analog cable content.

[slowride]

Talmania,

I am looking at getting my first HDTV but, I have delayed it because I have two lifetimed toshiba rs-tx20 tivo boxes and I have not been impressed with the way standard defintion looks on a hdtv. Do you have a DVDO or Lumagen's video processor/scaler connecting a Series 2 tivo to a hdtv? If you do how much does it improve the signal? What is the model of the scaler so I can check out the costs etc?

[slowride]

Megazone,

Yes I understand analog ( I have a BSEE) I think I understand the cable cards are essentially a key to unlock the digital signal. So I think that what you are saying is that I connect the coaxial cable that is what I currently get analog or basic cable from timewarner and this also contains the digital signal from TW?

The ntsc tuner uses the analog signal for the below 100 channel and the QAM tuner uses the digital signal for the above 100 channels all from the same coax cable.

********
What hdtv do you have? Have you used the scaler built into the S3 to see if it upconverts the 480i better than the one built into your tv?

If the scaler does a decent job at upconverting the SD signal it makes it easier to swallow the $800 cost of the box at least until I can afford a dedicated video processor/scaler. The one I am looking at cost $1500.

[talmania]

Talmania,

I am looking at getting my first HDTV but, I have delayed it because I have two lifetimed toshiba rs-tx20 tivo boxes and I have not been impressed with the way standard defintion looks on a hdtv. Do you have a DVDO or Lumagen's video processor/scaler connecting a Series 2 tivo to a hdtv? If you do how much does it improve the signal? What is the model of the scaler so I can check out the costs etc?

I currently own the DVDO VP30 with the ABT102 precision deinterlacer aftermarket add-on. I've preordered the upcoming VP50 which includes the functionality of the ABT102 aftermarket add-on. The primary difference between the VP30 and VP50 is that the VP50 will fully deinterlace and process HD sources where the VP30 only scales.

I do not own any Lumagen product but I have seen them before and have been very impressed with them. I chose DVDO because they have the superior SD deinterlacing and at the time it was what I watched most (DVD's). They also have fantastic customer service (as does Lumagen) and an unbelievable trade-in program (which Lumagen does not).

Quantifying the picture improvement is really tough. For one person it might be night and day and another it's indistinguishable. I can definitely see an improvement but it varies depending on the source. A video processor is more than just picture improvement, it's also a hub for all your multiple CE devices, and one of the most important, a scaler for your display device. A video processor can take any signal and scale it to your display's native resolution so you avoid having the processing take place at the display. Have a funky native resolution like 1366x768 LCD or plasma TV? A video processor can scale to it. You end up with a better quality picture because your scaling the source to the native resolution of your display device better than the processing that's in your display can do it. How big a difference depends on the quality of processing that your display can do.

I haven't used my series 2 Tivo in sometime but I have seen 480i (through my Motorola 6412) processed and upscaled to my panel's native resolution 1366x768 and the results are impressive. Please note, it is NOT HD and it never will be but it does improve the picture to my eyes.

Hope that helps.

[slowride]

Talmania,

Thanks, the vp30 with the add on card is the one I was looking at.

[talmania]

Talmania,

Thanks, the vp30 with the add on card is the one I was looking at.

No problem--glad to help.

If the majority of what you are watching is HD then you might consider the VP50.

[kb7oeb]

I saw in the user guide that they recommend the 'native' resolution setting, which I questionable advice to me. My TV takes far longer switch input resolutions than my current ATSC tuners take to switch their scaler settings to take everything to 720p.

My tv will not accept 720p signals so if I had it set to native pass through I would loose picture when I tune a 720p channel.

[jodell]

kb7oeb,

The S3's 1080i hybrid mode is probably best for you then. Every HD signal is scaled to 1080i, SD is deinterlaced to 480p.

Jeff

[Phantom Gremlin]

How is the picture on the S3? Can you see the compression when you are watching live HD TV or is it truly a pass through?

Holy cow, where are the moderators when you need them???

You mean you want to talk about something other than how the S3 is either the 21st century equivalent of the Edsel or the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread?

[keenanSR]

Hooked up the S3 last night..err..morning now I guess.. :p

Comcast cable feed to the S3, S3 is feeding a DVDO VP30/ABT102 to a Mits WS73615 CRT RPTV.

The HD channel PQ is very good, definitely better than the Comcast 6412 DVR. It reminds me of the PQ I was getting when I used a CableCARD with the Mits. Don't ask me how much as that's really hard to quantify, but it is noticeably better to my eyes.

The native resolution output of this box is really sweet! I hadn't expected it to make much of an impact, but, to begin with, the analog cable channels look much better--they're actually watchable now as opposed to before when they were just horrid. I've got the VP30 set to deinterlace the 480i input and then scale to 1080i and it looks good, can't wait to see what some of the digital cable channels like SciFi look like with this configuration.

The cable 720p HD channels, FOX and ABC in my area, even look better with this setup, a bit sharper and clearer than the cable box.

These observations are just initial impressions, and the difference is not earth-shattering, but there is a definite improvement, everything I've watched so far has a bit more "pop", or fresh look about it.

Very happy so far. :)

[Rob Helmerichs]

Holy cow, where are the moderators when you need them???

You mean you want to talk about something other than how the S3 is either the 21st century equivalent of the Edsel or the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread?
Yeah, 'cause evreybody here has been doing nothing but brown-nose TiVo over the S3! :rolleyes:

[headless chicken]

Screencaps, please! :)

[lawilson2]

So are you all recommending native or fixed 1080i? I have a 62" rear projection that supports up to 1080p. Native would keep tv that's not HD from being stretched, which I hate and have the bars on the side (this includes the menu). I'm ok with that, but I want to be sure that's what's recommended. Thanks!

[eisenb11]

I absolutely do not want them upconverted to 480p. Anyone that has a better scaler/processor than what's inside the Tivo would want the same thing. Sure if you have an average TV the processing/scaler in the Tivo might be better but no way it touches the likes of DVDO's or Lumagen's offerings.

Give me the material in its native form everytime and let my dedicated video processor/scaler handle it.

Aye, I'm running the same external processing combo as you... native output for me as well...

Any idea what the advantages are of the VP50 over the VP30+ABT? I gave the page a 10 sec glance but didnt see anything obvious... will look again during lunch...

Edit: Looks like I'll pass on the VP50. Don't need 1080P output... although having a field upgradable ABT102 would sure be nice.

[tgibbs]

Has anybody yet had the opportunity to compare the picture quality on upconverted (by the S3) SD video to that of the 10-250? Also, I'm wondering how good the zoom looks for widescreen shows letterboxed into a SD signal?

[kb7oeb]

Megazone,

Yes I understand analog ( I have a BSEE) I think I understand the cable cards are essentially a key to unlock the digital signal. So I think that what you are saying is that I connect the coaxial cable that is what I currently get analog or basic cable from timewarner and this also contains the digital signal from TW?

The ntsc tuner uses the analog signal for the below 100 channel and the QAM tuner uses the digital signal for the above 100 channels all from the same coax cable.

To add more technical info, digital channels above 100 is a virtual channels thing. When you have full basic cable you probably have static on on the channels around 70 - 94 (or is it 95) and 100-125, these channels are not all empty, that is where the digital signals are. If you hook up a plain QAM tuner you might find a QAM signal on RF channel 79 with two or three sub channels that contain your local HD channels. On channel 80 you might find 30 subchannels that you can't tune at all because they are the encrypted digital channels.

When you add in a cable card or cable box the cable company maps all of these real RF channels and sub channels into virtual channel number. For example, if punch in channel 705 on your cable box, the cable box might tune to RF channel 79 and decode subchannel 2.

[lawilson2]

To add more technical info, digital channels above 100 is a virtual channels thing. When you have full basic cable you probably have static on on the channels around 70 - 94 (or is it 95) and 100-125, these channels are not all empty, that is where the digital signals are. If you hook up a plain QAM tuner you might find a QAM signal on RF channel 79 with two or three sub channels that contain your local HD channels. On channel 80 you might find 30 subchannels that you can't tune at all because they are the encrypted digital channels.

When you add in a cable card or cable box the cable company maps all of these real RF channels and sub channels into virtual channel number. For example, if punch in channel 705 on your cable box, the cable box might tune to RF channel 79 and decode subchannel 2.

You lost me at "To add"... :p

[kb7oeb]

Thats ok most people have that reaction :)

[Bierboy]

So are you all recommending native or fixed 1080i? I have a 62" rear projection that supports up to 1080p. Native would keep tv that's not HD from being stretched, which I hate and have the bars on the side (this includes the menu). I'm ok with that, but I want to be sure that's what's recommended. Thanks!My setting is 1080i fixed....see sig for other equipment.

[rrman]

Hooked up the S3 last night..err..morning now I guess.. :p

Comcast cable feed to the S3, S3 is feeding a DVDO VP30/ABT102 to a Mits WS73615 CRT RPTV.

The HD channel PQ is very good, definitely better than the Comcast 6412 DVR. It reminds me of the PQ I was getting when I used a CableCARD with the Mits. Don't ask me how much as that's really hard to quantify, but it is noticeably better to my eyes.

The native resolution output of this box is really sweet! I hadn't expected it to make much of an impact, but, to begin with, the analog cable channels look much better--they're actually watchable now as opposed to before when they were just horrid. I've got the VP30 set to deinterlace the 480i input and then scale to 1080i and it looks good, can't wait to see what some of the digital cable channels like SciFi look like with this configuration.

The cable 720p HD channels, FOX and ABC in my area, even look better with this setup, a bit sharper and clearer than the cable box.

These observations are just initial impressions, and the difference is not earth-shattering, but there is a definite improvement, everything I've watched so far has a bit more "pop", or fresh look about it.

Very happy so far. :)

I intend to use TiVo's native output as well, since I have an external scaler (part of my Anthem D2 pre/pro). Question - in my experience, it takes a second or so for a TV (or external scaler) to "resynch" when the source input's resolution changes. I read somewhere that TiVo's menu output is 720p. So, if you are watching 1080i, and bring up the menu, does it take a second or so of "synching" before the menu is visible? No big deal, since I prefer to use an external scaler, but was just wondering.

Thanks.

[keenanSR]

I intend to use TiVo's native output as well, since I have an external scaler (part of my Anthem D2 pre/pro). Question - in my experience, it takes a second or so for a TV (or external scaler) to "resynch" when the source input's resolution changes. I read somewhere that TiVo's menu output is 720p. So, if you are watching 1080i, and bring up the menu, does it take a second or so of "synching" before the menu is visible? No big deal, since I prefer to use an external scaler, but was just wondering.

Thanks.
Yes, it does take a second or two at the most. The TiVo menu is reported by the VP30 as being 720p. The re-sync is visible on screen with the VP30 in the chain, but it's a non-issue for me, might startle a few people the first time they see it, but everything is working as it should be.

DVDO was/is/rumored to be working on a video mute whereas when changing input resolutions the image onscreen would not display the re-syncing itself, it would just be blank until the re-sync was completed. They were also working on the mute for when changing actual inputs on the VP30. The VP50 may have these things things incorporated, but I don't know for sure.

But, like I noted above, it's not really a big deal.