Why I'm not buying a Series 3

[DoubleTap]

Hey all,
I've been a long time member, mostly reading and learning from the folks on this great forum, but I feel very strongly about this and need to let the folks here and at Tivo who read this that there is a problem.

Also, please note. I am a huge fan of Tivo. I own three Tivos, standalone and DTV. I also called DirecTV numerous times after their decision to drop Tivo and ultimately canceled my DirecTV service in protest.

I have no problem with the $800 price of the new hardware. I understand that prices of new advanced hardware are initially high and Tivo has to recoup their development costs.


But here is why I'm not going to buy a Series 3


1) Ending of lifetime subscriptions - no need for explanation

2) The so-called 'Transfer a lifetime subscription' we're offered as valued customers. -This is ridiculous. So we already payed for a lifetime service subscription and we now have to pay $200 to terminate the liftime subscription we already payed for to get a new lifetime subscription that was $300 earlier this year?

And thanks for the Free year of service on my old hardware, so when I move that to another room, I can go back to monthly service and in the end still end up paying the monthly fee.

Even if I had a broken S1 that was on fire, I wouldn't transfer the service.

MythTV here I come!

[tunnelengineer]

wow, i see you are not happy unless Tivo lets you transfer the service for free. Am I missing something???

Let us know how that MythTV unit works with the cable HD channels........

[jones07]

Let us know how that MythTV unit works with the cable HD channels........


No that wasn't nice :o

[jones07]

MythTV here I come!


You may wish to look at Sagetv and about $600-800 worth of hardware mods to record dish or D* HD channels.......... Not cheap, but workable

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/products.htm

[DoubleTap]

You know, I'm not sure I would even if I could transfer for free, because I wouldn't want to trash a perfectly good S2 for one of the non HD sets in my house.

Most houses have more than one TV, and if they have an HDTV, they probably have another tv that WAS in the living room before they got their HDTV. So their gonna want to have Tivo on both sets. All Tivo is offering is to pay the bill on a different set AFTER you've shelled out the 200 bucks.

[tunnelengineer]

sounds like you are a happy customer then....

[DoubleTap]

sounds like you are a happy customer then....


Like I said, I love my Tivos and I love the technology, but I'll be looking elsewhere for my next HD DVR unless Tivo changes their tune.

[tazzftw]

Let's think about this for a second. You're S1 is "broken". It's no longer usable.

Now, under the old lifetime service terms, the lifetime only lasts for the life of the unit. If you wanted lifetime on a different unit, you'd have to pay $299 for it, since they mostly don't transfer.

Now today, you can transfer the lifetime over to a new unit for even less than that, only $199!

So I can see your point for most of it, but your last sarcastic point shows just how great of an offer this is.

owned

[DoubleTap]

Now today, you can transfer the lifetime over to a new unit for even less than that, only $199!

So I can see your point for most of it, but your last sarcastic point shows just how great of an offer this is.

owned


It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

[Granzella]

You know, I'm not sure I would even if I could transfer for free, because I wouldn't want to trash a perfectly good S2 for one of the non HD sets in my house.

Most houses have more than one TV, and if they have an HDTV, they probably have another tv that WAS in the living room before they got their HDTV. So their gonna want to have Tivo on both sets. All Tivo is offering is to pay the bill on a different set AFTER you've shelled out the 200 bucks.


Then dont transfer your S2 to a S3. Pay 6.95 a month on a S3.

[tazzftw]

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?
Less than that. You wanted lifetime service, and in that situation, you'd pay $100 less than what you'd have a year ago. Screw principle, that's a damn good deal.

[DoubleTap]

Then dont transfer your S2 to a S3. Pay 6.95 a month on a S3.


Good point.

As someone who's been following this since the demo at CES, I've had 3 ways to improve my situation with the S3

- Could've bought a liftime subscription 'future' gift card
- Transfer a clunker
- Use my existing liftime subscription for the discount


In the end I'm still left with the same feeling.

[BLeonard]

I've had three Series 1 Tivos since late 1999 and early 2000. All have lifetime service.

The main reason I probably won't take advantage of this offer is that when I moved to a large screen High-Def TV I need to go with a Bright House Cable DVR. While it lacks a lot of what attracted me to Tivo, it does the job at a pretty low cost.

A Series 3 Tivo would mean spending $800 plus another $200 to transfer one of my lifetimes and the hassle of messing with all those cables and moving around complicated components not to mention reprogramming my universal remote. It's just not worth it.

Had it come out a year ago I probably would have been a customer.

[terryfoster]

I've had three Series 1 Tivos since late 1999 and early 2000. All have lifetime service. .... A Series 3 Tivo would mean spending $800 plus another $200 to transfer one of my lifetimes and the hassle of messing with all those cables and moving around complicated components not to mention reprogramming my universal remote. It's just not worth it.

From what you have just said you might qualify for the Grandfather clause on some of your S1s. I am of the understanding that if you do qualify you don't have to pay to transfer the lifetime service.

Secondly, get a different universal remote if reprogramming it keeps you from switching around your configuration. My Harmony remote does the programing for me once I tell it I have a new component.

[n0pa]

$115.6 ($199 - ($6.95*12)) is what I see the lifetime transfer costing. The way I see it, it's a chance to put some value in my S3 instead having my S2, that I no longer plan to use, keeping that valuable service. I am sure you could sell your old S2 on eBay to someone who want to try Tivo for about $155 ($12.95 * 12) (The cost of a 1 year full price subscription). Then it only cost you $44 for a lifetime transfer.

So with very little work on eBay (I would use "Buy it Now") you could pay on $44 (or about 6.3 months of discounted service (about 3 month of full price service) for the lifetime transfer. Now who is planning on keeping their $800 Tivo for less then a year? Let’s not forget what you have, a Tivo S3 with Lifetime. Who knows what that will go for on eBay?

Of course I take the expensive approach. I am planning on giving mine to my brother for the year and introducing him to the Tivo lifestyle.

[MickeS]

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

You could also see it in that case as just buying lifetime for your S3 - at a price which is $100 LESS than lifetime has been for the past 3 years. And remember, lifetime is no longer available.

I am not buying a Series 3 either, but for different reasons. The price is fine with me, and the lifetime transfer is a decent deal, as is the monthly $6.95 if I so choose.

I was all set to order one right away, but the lack of TTG and "Come back", which I use all the time and for me is one of the main selling points for the S3, has made me reconsider. I was hoping to be able to use it to view Hi-Def movies that I have downloaded, but that can't be done.

The reason I have decided to wait is that these things were not left out because of a delay or similar, that TiVo can fix in a future release. If that had been the case, I would have bought it.

But since they are left out because of the CableLabs certification, I am extremely hesitant to spend my money on it right now. The future of it is not in TiVos hands, so who knows if they will ever be allowed to do these things?

I would love to see something positive about this before 12/31/06 so I could use the LT transfer option, but I really doubt it...

[DoubleTap]

You know,

Fundamentally, I think that I just don't feel that TV listings qualifies as a service to me and I can't justify paying for them for the rest of my life unless they are basically zero. I justified the purchase with the lifetime subscription as an add-on to the product cost.

A DVR is a product, not a service. Maybe if Tivo had some content that came with the price I could justify it.


Once again, awesome technology. But I think the Tivo business model is flawed and they should've followed apples lead with the ipod. How many people would've bought Ipods if there was a monthly fee tied to the product?

Ipod
Multiple hardware price points, so you can get what you can afford.
-Shuffle
-Nano
-Video, (two HD sizes)

Cool download service
-no monthly fee
-pay as you play

Apple is raking it in with these. It's only a matter of time before they have a full fledged settop box and I'm sure they'll follow the same mode. They'll probably have a single tuner HD box for like $300. Meanwhile, the Cadillac Tivo will only be competing with the top end apple stuff.

[MickeS]

Ah, the old "Apple will have a DVR" fantasy again. :)

[DoubleTap]

Ah, the old "Apple will have a DVR" fantasy again. :)

Sooner than later I think :)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/

[eisenb11]

It's the principal of it. Even if I had a beat up S1. "Transferring" the service for the same price as it cost?

I don't think you get it. Lifetime service is not transferrable anyways.

For the sake of argument, pretend you can still buy lifetime service.

So if you have a S1 w lifetime and buy a S2, you have to buy another lifetime service, even if you trash the old S1.

So if you have a S1 w lifetime and buy a S3, you have to buy another lifetime for the S3... see?

Now, we all know that the lifetime no longer exists. So all Tivo is saying is that if you had bought a previous lifetime on a S1/S2, they'll let you buy a lifetime on the S3... if you trash the lifetime on the original machine.

One way or another you'd have to buy a lifetime for the S3. There's no freebie transfer and there never was a freebie transfer for any unit unless it was an internal repair job.

There's nothing wrong with this deal... Tivo is doing us a favor, they're not obliged to do this.

[jfh3]

But I think the Tivo business model is flawed and they should've followed apples lead with the ipod.

Yeah, that worked out so well for Replay ...

Tivo is much more than a guide. If it were so simple, all the other DVRs would do the same thing and just as reliably. They don't. The Tivo service is value add over the DVR hardware.

[jfh3]

Sooner than later I think :)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/

Look again.

No DVR. Nothing more than a media extender, and overpriced at that.

[n0pa]

Ahh yes. You forget to notice that the iTv needs a computer backend, so the $299 price they are touting is just for the lame set top box. Also, to stream HD video you are going to need 802.11n, Notice that in the presentation no reference to a, b, or g was given when they said 802.11. If they were going to do anything similar to a DVR it would be putting a TV tuner in the Mac mini ($599, and that the low end) and the iTV ($299), so it $998, just like the S3 with Lifetime transfer, and that doesn't include the 802.11n router you will need, another $100.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/21133BEF-61B4-40C1-A976-5C1360E60694.html

[MickeS]

Sooner than later I think :)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/hands-on-with-the-apple-itv-prototype/

As others have pointed out, this has nothing in common with a DVR other than that they both hook up to a TV.

[DoubleTap]

As others have pointed out, this has nothing in common with a DVR other than that they both hook up to a TV.

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

[MickeS]

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

Can you tell me why they would want to make it easier for people to not buy their content?

[DoubleTap]

BTW, My intent was not for thi to be a "problems with tivo" thread. I'm still a fan!

[Gregor]

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

All Apple has done is get DRM on a very limited set of content, ie what they sell. The road Tivo is hauling is getting DRM on anything it can record.

Totally different, imho.

[DoubleTap]

All Apple has done is get DRM on a very limited set of content, ie what they sell. The road Tivo is hauling is getting DRM on anything it can record.

Totally different, imho.


The thing is that apple sells content. And their hardware can handle the standard media. So far Tivo has not been able to figure out how to sell anything but movie tickets and TV listings.

How different is podcasting from recording your favorite show? I think apple gets the idea.

[eisenb11]

Like I said above, it's only a matter of time before they have a full-fledged set top box. And Apple is much further ahead of Tivo with the hard part, the digital rights management.

This is not correct.

You can't appease CableLabs by just tossing DRM on a video signal, it's much more complicated than that.

First you need to be HDCP compliant. That means you video in has to be compliant, your video out needs to be compliant. It also means that if you're using analog outs they have to downrez or shut-off if specified by HDCP content.

On top of that, the digital data stream must not be able to be intercepted in an unencypted form. That means the data has to be protected even as it moved through the motherboard's bus and through various components.

Apple is nowhere near having the hard stuff done. There is not a single Apple component that supports HDCP copy protection.

So, in that sense, Apple has nothing done. They need:

1. Major revisions to the OS (this stuff is a huge deal with Windows Vista which people complain is going to be DRM'ed to hell)

2. New peripheral cards. You'll need HDCP compliant video input cards, sound cards, and video cards.

3. New motherboards... gotta support the crazy DRM features associated with HDCP.

4. Cablecard support... have fun dealing with CableLabs

So, in short, no... Apple *does not* have the hard part done.

An HD DVR isn't just about slapping iTunes FairPlay DRM onto stuff... it's all about new hardware, OS support, and some certifications that are very very hard to get.

[bkdtv]

The thing is that apple sells content. And their hardware can handle the standard media. So far Tivo has not been able to figure out how to sell anything but movie tickets and TV listings.

How different is podcasting from recording your favorite show? I think apple gets the idea.As eisenb indicates in the previous post, Apple isn't even remotely close to having the technology in place to deliver Tivo-like functionality for digital cable and high-definition.

Furthermore, there is no indication so far that Apple even wants to deliver such functionality. Apple has already said several times that they have no interest in a DVR or subscription services. In fact, Apple is about the only provider out there that doesn't offer a subscription service for unlimited access to content.

With Apple, you pay $500/mo if you want to listen to 500 new songs a month on your Mac, PC, or iPod. With every other service -- Yahoo, Rhapsody, Microsoft's Zune, etc-- you just pay a flat $8-$15/mo to listen to and copy an unlimited number of new songs to your Mac, PC, or music player with PlayForSure. The only difference is that you don't actually "own" the content -- but otherwise it works just the same. You have a copy on your disk or music player and can listen to it whenever you want. Apple's iPod is just about the only music player on the market that doesn't support these services -- they want to lock you into their pay, pay, and pay some more model.

Providers have begun to introduce similar services for downloadable video -- you pay a single monthly fee to download/stream as much video you want to your PC and portable video player -- yet with Apple's new video service, you must buy your own copy of every program for $10 to $15 each. Even content broadcast for free over the airwaves costs $1 to $5 per program episode at the Apple store. And none of it is in high-definition! It's about the same quality you would get with a Series2.

If you watch every episode of 10 different broadcast network shows, and use OTA instead of cable, the cost savings of the Series3 over the Apple video store will pay for itself in about 18 months.

[jdmass]

I really, really want to justify buying an S3, but so far I haven't been able to. It's not the $800 per se, I'm willing to spend that kind of money if there is $800 worth of value. I don't really care about the lack of TTG or MRV -- they are nice to have but not showstoppers. The problem is that as far as I can see, the only real value add of the S3 versus a cable co DVR is the Tivo interface. Don't get me wrong, I love the interface, but I'm looking for something that hits me as $800 of value. The comparison chart of the S3 versus cable co DVRs on Tivo's website is laughable: THX certification, OLED, Back-lit remote control??? This is the best they could come up with???

Regarding iTV, Apple may be on the cusp of another revolution. I don't think they care about DVR functionality at all. They want to be an alternative to cable as a provider of content -- kind of what Tivo is working towards with downloadable content. Rather than spending $80/mo on cable, Apple wants you to spend the money with them on 1.99 TV shows and 9.99, 12.99, 14.99 movies. Picking and choosing what you want to watch when you want to watch it (sounds kind of familiar), but changing the rules of how you obtain it. Definitely sounds interesting

[HDTiVo]

I can understand a rejection of the total cost of the Lifetime transfer, but don't understand a peev with its existence.

I don't understand an objection to the year of free service, but I could understand a peev with the terms that say after one year the box automatically goes to $19.95 (or whatever the one year is then.)

[eisenb11]

I thinks downloadable content is a cool idea with songs, but I think it's going to be a flop on video/movies... and especially on HD content.

It just takes forever to download that stuff. I don't like the idea of having to wait 2 days to watch a HD show because I need to download it verse watching it on cable as soon as it airs.

Ofcourse we'll see how Apple does (they've proven the nay-sayers wrong before), but I don't think our internet connections are fast enough right now to handle that kind of abuse...

[ViTo2]

Questions for eisenb11: I have a few questions that I hope you can help me with!
1: I assume that the series 3 has a broadcast flag chip in it! Will this disable or restrict transfers to an HD DVD Recorder?2: I have a couple of Pioneer Elite DVR-57H's with lifetime, and a Pioneer DVR-810H-s with lifetime! I have noticed that on most of the regular Pioneers, that they have superior recording quality over my Elite counterparts, that I would guess be due to newer hard drives > Maxtor (Quick View?) I have one 57H with 4 years warranty left on it, and one with 1 &1/2,a and I also have a 810 with Zero warranty! I am trying to figure out which one I would want to use for a transfer to a series 3, and the one with 4-years, is probably not going to happen, as it is covered agianst everything including lightning, or accidently dropping it! I also have 2 Series 2 40 hour tivo units, and a series 1 with 80+ hours, and all of these have Lifetime service, but if I transfer either of the regular tivo units, then I will not have much of anything to speak of to even considering the free one year service on the old unit! The way I see it! I can transfer one of my Pioneer, or Elite models, and get the free year of plus service on that, and when the free year is up, I can always go back to basic service, which is free, and you don't even have to have them activated! I tried it out on one of my machines, and it is not bad for free! Anyway, you seem pretty knowledgeable on the technical issues, and maybe you can answer the question about the broadcast flag, as the pioneers will not receive or record in HD, but the quality is still as good as most DVDs you can buy in the stores! Please reply with any suggestions, or comments! Thanks, ViTo2

[MickeS]

I thinks downloadable content is a cool idea with songs, but I think it's going to be a flop on video/movies... and especially on HD content.

It just takes forever to download that stuff. I don't like the idea of having to wait 2 days to watch a HD show because I need to download it verse watching it on cable as soon as it airs.

Ofcourse we'll see how Apple does (they've proven the nay-sayers wrong before), but I don't think our internet connections are fast enough right now to handle that kind of abuse...

A hi-def movie at about 15 GB on my connection (6 mbit) would take about 7 hours I think, and as connections get faster it will take less time. A movie from iTunes right now took 45 minutes (and was faster than real-time so I could watch it while it was downloading).

[mick66]

Why I'm not buying a Series 3:

I can't justify the cost, I currently have only basic analog cable and really need nothing more, I don't have or plan to get an HDTV anytime in the next couple of years because as it now stands, HDTV does not thrill me.

[jsquid001]

I hate to say it but I cannot justify the cost either. 1K (800 + 200 lifetime transfer) is just too much.

Im kinda pissed about it as I have been an ardent Tivo supporter and stock holder for quite some time. I sing Tivo's praises every chance I get.

But what does it say if someone like me that could afford it looks at the offer and turns away?

Thought: If Tivo is doing all these great deals with the cable companies, wont all the cable companies HD DVRs be Tivos in a couple of years anyway?

[bidger]

HDTV does not thrill me.
And SDTV does?!

[eisenb11]

A hi-def movie at about 15 GB on my connection (6 mbit) would take about 7 hours I think, and as connections get faster it will take less time. A movie from iTunes right now took 45 minutes (and was faster than real-time so I could watch it while it was downloading).

It looks good on paper, but isn't very realistic though.

1. Most broadband is nowhere near 6Mb/s.

A huge chunk of the US is still not covered by broadband. For the parts that are, your standard DLS/Cable max speed is usually around 1-1.5 Mb/s.

2. Even if your connection is 6Mb/s, it's unlikely that the internet will support your speed.

To get from one site to another you have to connect to a bunch of servers in between. The 6Mb/s is the theoretical max and usually can only be approached within your ISPs own network. Outside the network you're limited to the max speed of the slowest server between you and Tivo.com.

My cable modem caps out only at 1.5 Mb/s and, aside from speed tests, I rarely ever get near those kinds of speeds in "real world" use.

3. Internet speeds are getting better slowly. The US is one of the worst countries as far as high-speed internet availability goes.

4. Assuming your max speed works in the real world, you're claiming 7 hours worth of downloading in order to do 2 hours worth of watching. That's an aweful lot of waiting for a small amount of entertainment.

The idea would probably work better in Japan where there is a decent rollout of extremely high-speed internet service... here in the US we're just not fast enough in order to make that worthwhile.

[chrispitude]

I hate to say it but I cannot justify the cost either. 1K (800 + 200 lifetime transfer) is just too much.

Im kinda pissed about it as I have been an ardent Tivo supporter and stock holder for quite some time. I sing Tivo's praises every chance I get.

But what does it say if someone like me that could afford it looks at the offer and turns away?

I feel the same way.

The funny thing is, both I and my friend (both single electrical engineers) feel the exact same way. We both have lifetime Series 2 units purchased a couple years ago. Neither of us can justify shelling out $1000 to buy a S3, transfer the lifetime, and improve our TV-watching experience. We can easily afford it, but we can't justify it.

The irony is, we both sought out and bought very good 1080p displays solely to be able to use them with the Series 3 when it came out. He got a very nice 1080p 65" DLP set, and I got a 42" Westinghouse 1080p LCD. And now, it's just too expensive to do the upgrade. Until it makes more financial sense to move to a Series 3, we will both just continue watching standard-def in all its blurry glory through our S2s.

- Chris

[jones07]

Your cable company don't offer a HD-DVR ?

[chrispitude]

Your cable company don't offer a HD-DVR ?

I've seen their DVR at someone else's house and it's atrocious. I couldn't bring myself to set my lifetime Series 2 aside and use their DVR for day-to-day use. I didn't look closely at the manufacturer, but I will when I get the opportunity.

- Chris

[headless chicken]

Thought: If Tivo is doing all these great deals with the cable companies, wont all the cable companies HD DVRs be Tivos in a couple of years anyway?

Does Cablevision have a contract with TiVo to utilize the TiVo interface/software on their DVRs like Cox and Comcast?

[bkdtv]

Does Cablevision have a contract with TiVo to utilize the TiVo interface/software on their DVRs like Cox and Comcast?
Unfortunately, no.

Cablevision uses Scientific Altanta boxes in most markets, and Tivo only supports the Motorola platform for the forseeable future.

[classicX]

Can you tell me why they would want to make it easier for people to not buy their content?

Because it's not their content. They don't make much money on the content anyway, only about 5%. When they hit their first milestone of 1 million songs, they reported that their revenue from that was about $50,000. From $1,000,000. This is why indepentent labels and artists love iTunes - they keep much more of the profits.

Apple has also stated that the iTMS was CREATED to sell iPods. That's where Apple is making their money. If they can have a DVR with their sleek-as-black-leather interface, and sell it for say, $800 (with NO monthly fees!), they could have lightning striking twice.

Why?


Because Apple is one of the only companies right now that could create an interface better than Tivo's.
Because then (CableLab et al certifications aside) you could sync content DIRECTLY from the DVR to your iPod, without having a computer!
Given a 'TV show sync' function, would give you an instant inroads with millions of people who already have iPods. In contrast, TTG is usually used for off-line program storage (on your home computer) or mobile viewing (on your laptop). I'd be willing to bet that there are more people with iPods than with laptops in the US.
Sync with the iTunes store - record your shows locally, or, if you want something else, you can get it directly via the already established online store, right from your couch. Purchase movies, old shows, etc. directly.
Movie RENTALS - they could offer older movies for purchase (as they do currently), or, for a smaller fee, say $2.99, current movies for rent, (smaller fee for older movies), that will download and begin playing immediately, but will stay on the machine for only 2 or 3 days. Who would bother with going to rent movies or even with Netflix when you can start watching immediately after you rent? Of course, this service would be optional (no monthly fees, remember?).
Monthly rental revenue - outside of purchasing single movies for rent, they could alternatively have an "online Netflix" - a giant database of movies and a queue - when you're done with one movie, you can immediately start watching the next movie in your queue. I'd actually pay MORE for that than I currently do with Netflix ($17.99 / month).


A single box for everything (except HDDVD or BlueRay) - most people would KILL to go back to the days of one or two components accompanying their TV. DVR + Movies + iPod Integration + who knows what else in one box? They could sell for $1500 and still have trouble keeping stock. And guess what - I'D BUY ONE. No monthly fees? I'd be all over that.

Anyone care to add?

[echodave]

He
2) The so-called 'Transfer a lifetime subscription' we're offered as valued customers. -This is ridiculous. So we already payed for a lifetime service subscription and we now have to pay $200 to terminate the liftime subscription we already payed for to get a new lifetime subscription that was $300 earlier this year?

Of all the kvetching that I've done (and believe me, I've done plenty), this is the one point that I can honestly say I don't agree with folks about.

Let's translate this problem into the world of software, because this is a very common occurence for server-based software:

- You buy a piece of software. You get a license key that is tied to the machine name.

- About a year goes by, and it's time for an infrastructure upgrade. You buy a new server to improve performance of the application.

- You go back to the company, and want a new license key for the new server.

- Odds are good you're going to be:

a) Paying for the new license on the new server; or

b) Paying to keep a "floating, temporary" license on the old server during migration and testing.

So, from this aspect, I really don't have a problem with Tivo charging a fee to transfer that "key" to the new Tivo, especially since they're letting you keep that "floating, temporary" key for an additional year on your existing hardware.

That's not to say that I don't agree with your other points wholeheartedly, but this is the one that I really can't see people finding fault with Tivo about.

[classicX]

2) The so-called 'Transfer a lifetime subscription' we're offered as valued customers. -This is ridiculous. So we already payed for a lifetime service subscription and we now have to pay $200 to terminate the liftime subscription we already payed for to get a new lifetime subscription that was $300 earlier this year?

I find it funny that they called it a VIP site, when all they're doing is offering you the chance to give them more money.

"Hey, Tivo Lovers that aren't paying us! Want to?"

A true VIP offer would have offered a small discount on the S3 for purchasing through Tivo.com - say $50-100. But you have to have had active Tivo service for the past 12 months, lifetime or not.

THEN offer the $199 transfer.

That deal seems a lot more attractive and 'VIP'. And it wouldn't be the first time a product has launched that way.

Since you are all fond of car analogies, here's the reason why Enzo's are going for $2M. The Enzo Ferrari was priced at $650,000 at first release - but there was a prerequisite - you had to have owned two specific models previously, and prove it. Now they are selling for about $1M. Most people couldn't show that they had owned the other two models, but some could. Fast forward to the idea of one enterprising individual to buy the car at $650K, then sell it WITHOUT the aforementioned prerequisite. One sold for $2M on eBay, I believe.

Now THAT's a VIP deal.

[bilbo]

I feel the same way.

The funny thing is, both I and my friend (both single electrical engineers) feel the exact same way. We both have lifetime Series 2 units purchased a couple years ago. Neither of us can justify shelling out $1000 to buy a S3, transfer the lifetime, and improve our TV-watching experience. We can easily afford it, but we can't justify it.

The irony is, we both sought out and bought very good 1080p displays solely to be able to use them with the Series 3 when it came out. He got a very nice 1080p 65" DLP set, and I got a 42" Westinghouse 1080p LCD. And now, it's just too expensive to do the upgrade. Until it makes more financial sense to move to a Series 3, we will both just continue watching standard-def in all its blurry glory through our S2s.

- Chris

I don't know, everybody has their own logic, but to me that sounds a little strange. My logic is this, though: if I get one or two S3's, I am probably going to get the same number of HDTV's to "mate" with those S3's. That could be a big bill, though, obviously (even if I end up paying less than $1,000 per TV I get).

[chrispitude]

I don't know, everybody has their own logic, but to me that sounds a little strange. My logic is this, though: if I get one or two S3's, I am probably going to get the same number of HDTV's to "mate" with those S3's. That could be a big bill, though, obviously (even if I end up paying less than $1,000 per TV I get).

Hi bilbo,

To sum up, the logic is - right now, $1000 is more than I'm willing to spend to upgrade the video quality of my current Series 2 (which also has 400GB and tons more recording capacity than the unit I'd be upgrading to). I don't mind the fee to transfer the lifetime subscription and I'm grateful for the opportunity to do so. I'm looking forward to making the jump once the total upgrade cost comes down to a more reasonable level.

- Chris

[eisenb11]

I find it funny that they called it a VIP site, when all they're doing is offering you the chance to give them more money.

Hey, if you give me more money than the next guy, you're a VIP in my book! :D

This works in other industries too. Have a bar you like? Tip the bar tender 50% and let's see if you're not a VIP in his book too!