OTA 35.1 in Orlando Area?

[TiVoToo]

Anyone else in Orlando area using S3 with antenna for OTA DT/HD? If so, are you able to tune to Fox on 35.1 (Frequency 22)? In my Channel List, 35.1 shows no associated frequency, unless I go to Channel Scan and delete all previously scanned channels (even though I have no scanned channels in Channel List). Once I do this and return to Channel List, it will show 35.1 on Frequency 22 which is correct. However, if I try to tune 35.1 I get a "Channel Unavailable" message. Return to Channel List which shows 35.1 no longer associated with a frequency. I thought at first this was due to an error in the S3 Setup - DT22 had not been associated with 35.1. But since it will show correct Frequency when I do the 'delete scanned channels', I beginning to think it is something else. Perhaps some sort of copy protection at the source to which only my S3 is sensitive to? [My HDTV tuner, and the tuner in my HTPC, can tune 35.1 without a problem.] Or something in the PSIP that the S3 don't like. Any help appreciated.

[MikeO]

I live in the orlando BHN area.

when I get my s3 friday I will check..

Are you using BHN?

mike

[TiVoToo]

Yes. I have analog cable from BHN. But, this is NOT a BHN problem. I live close to the Bithlo antenna farm, so I use an antenna mounted in my attic to receive all of the local OTA digital broadcasts. The S3 TiVo is my 4th device with an ATSC tuner for OTA reception. With all of the other tuners, at initial setup, the tuners scans for digital broadcasts on the Digital Transmission (DT) frequencies. For all frequencies with signal, the tuner will use PSIP embedded in the signal to map the DT (physical) frequency to a virtual channel. The Fox 35 digital transmission is assigned to frequency/channel DT-22, and is mapped by the tuners to virtual channel 35.1. The Tivo HD does this differently. It obtains the DT channel mappings for all the local DT broadcasts as part of the Guided Setup. There is an option to have the tuner do a scan as a part of the System Settings. However, this scan will only find those channels (ATSC or QAM) that are not already in the Channel List. If the DT channel is already in the list, like 35.1, it can't be modified, or deleted and rescanned. For 35.1, there appears to be an error in the DT information that TiVo is using to setup the Orlando area DT channels in the Channel List during Guided Setup. There is no DT frequency assigned to channel 35.1. If you scroll through the channel list, you will note that the frequency of each DT channel is listed in the channel info. There is no frequency listed for 35.1. As a result when attempting to tune to 35.1, the TiVo displays the "No Channel Available" banner.

Will you be getting your HD via BHN? Or OTA?

[jfh3]

I'm not 100% sure I understand the issue, but you may want to PM TivoJerry with the details and see if this is a bug with the S3 or working as designed.

[TiVoToo]

I'm not 100% sure I understand the issue, but you may want to PM TivoJerry with the details and see if this is a bug with the S3 or working as designed.

Done.
I don't think this is a bug with the S3 hardware. I think the problem is in the database.

[TiVoToo]

After working with TiVoJerry during the last week, the TiVo engineering team has been able to isolate the problem.

From TiVoJerry:

The problem is twofold:
1> The TVCT that FOX is publishing on frequencyIndex 22 does not provide a valid channel_TSID for the virtual channel. It should not be "0".

2> We weren't expecting a "0", but the good news is that we will fix it in a future software release (unknown ETA). Please check when you get the next update and I'll let you know if it was included or not. We have a candidate that may get pushed out soon, but it could leave the fix for this behind.

To fix this, you could wait until we roll the software update. Or you could contact your provider and let them know.

I have e-mailed this information to Fox 35.
Until this is fixed, either in a future TiVo software release or at Fox 35, Orlando area TiVo HD owners will be unable to tune to 35.1 using an antenna. This does not affect 35.1 received over cable. I also believe 27.1 is having same problem. Will find out when TiVo rolls out an upgrade with the fix.

[jfh3]

Another :up: for the Tivo engineering team.

Imagine how long this would've taken to get identified, let alone fixed, if it were with a Motorola or SA box. Since neither box records OTA, the correct answer is never ;), but this is nice to see.

(Now put the engineers back on the QAM mapping function ... :D)

[TiVoToo]

Another :up: for the Tivo engineering team.

Imagine how long this would've taken to get identified, let alone fixed, if it were with a Motorola or SA box. Since neither box records OTA, the correct answer is never ;), but this is nice to see.


Fortunately it CAN be fixed via a software upgrade. I remember the early years (2001-2003) of digital broadcasting in this area when the local stations were bringing their digital signals online. I was one of a group of early HD adopters. At the time, OTA was the only way to get HD. It wasn't carried over cable yet. There used to be all kinds of PSIP problems, and they all had to be corrected at the source, as the receivers couldn't be upgraded. Some of the group got to know the engineers at the local stations fairly well. They provided feedback as the engineers experimented with the PSIP tables. It could sometimes take weeks to get problems fixed. Some stations were very cooperative; appreciated the help; and responded to reported problems as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, the Fox affiliate was not one of those. I expect they will not correct their PSIP table prior to TiVo rolling out a software upgrade with a fix.

[ebockelman]

After working with TiVoJerry during the last week, the TiVo engineering team has been able to isolate the problem.

From TiVoJerry:

The problem is twofold:
1> The TVCT that FOX is publishing on frequencyIndex 22 does not provide a valid channel_TSID for the virtual channel. It should not be "0".

2> We weren't expecting a "0", but the good news is that we will fix it in a future software release (unknown ETA). Please check when you get the next update and I'll let you know if it was included or not. We have a candidate that may get pushed out soon, but it could leave the fix for this behind.

To fix this, you could wait until we roll the software update. Or you could contact your provider and let them know.

I have e-mailed this information to Fox 35.
Until this is fixed, either in a future TiVo software release or at Fox 35, Orlando area TiVo HD owners will be unable to tune to 35.1 using an antenna. This does not affect 35.1 received over cable. I also believe 27.1 is having same problem. Will find out when TiVo rolls out an upgrade with the fix.

So the question is, how has this been working on my HR10-250 for the past couple years? I've never had a problem with Fox 35.

[TiVoToo]

So the question is, how has this been working on my HR10-250 for the past couple years? I've never had a problem with Fox 35.

It is an interesting question. As I noted in my original post, my other ATSC tuners have no problem with 35.1. Does the HR10-250 scan for the local DT channels, or does it use information provided by D*? My speculation is that for the S3 that the PSIP table for the local DT channel is provided as a part of the Guided Setup. Because there is a mismatch in that TVCT and the TVCT as broadcast, the S3 can't tune it. So, the difference between the S3 and HR10-250 may be in the source of channel data.

[jskipMan]

I would like to thank Tivo and there crack engineers... I just got a series 3 and have been going nuts over why i am not getting fox 35.1 (hd) !! then i see this thread and all is answered. Whew... no more lonely nights turing the antenna this way & that searching for fox... i see a fix didn't make it into this latest Feb upgrade.. just wanted to make sure it will make into the next one? thanks... ps i am trying to get fox to fix it as well...

[TiVoToo]

Actually the problem was fixed in the 8.1 software. However, you need to perform a channel scan to force the TiVo to re-assign frequency. I've been receiving 35.1 via antenna using 8.1 software ever since 8.1 was downloaded to my box, but I had to rescan in order to get it because the 8.0 software unassigned the frequency due to an error in the PSIP.

[jskipMan]

Thanks for the info... I just got the 8.1 update this morning.. I will do a scan as soon as I get home... very excited to see it work :) I will post my success/failure...

... and might I add: I have NEVER been part of a community so helpful and full of knowledge... it's just stinking cool!

[jskipMan]

THANKs! for the info... it works great now.. just had to re-scan after the update :)