Series 3 vs. Not Released Comcast Tivo

[jctivo]

What's the functional difference going to be with Series 3 Tivo vs the yet to be released Comcast-Tivo in late 2006/early 2007?

I love the TIVO interface but now that I just bought an HD tv, I can't go back to non HD TV. But I can't afford to spend $800 or $500 with rebate or whatever on a Series 3.

So I'm stuck with the SA8300 and I know that it's "possible" to add an external hard drive (see avsforum) which I might try to do but I'd rather be with tivo.

So my question is..in 3-8 months or whenever the Comcast-Tivo is released what will I be getting and for how much?

I realize the answer is grounded in uncertainity.

Thanks.

[fergiej]

Uncertainty, yea, as in no one knows at all. The one thing for sure is that the Comcast DVR will only have the same old 120GB hard drive. I doubt Comcast will ever turn on the SATA port on this thing.

Beyond that, I don't think anyone can answer any questions about the CCTiVo.

[ah30k]

The Comcast/TiVo unit will allow the use of VOD and PPV since it will run on the Motorola hardware platform.

The standalone TiVo will likely have more frequent software updates and will not be hampered by any cirteria that Comcast may or may not enforce. It will also likely be easier to update disk size and otherwise hack.

[classicX]

Also there is no guarantee that when it is released, you will be able to get it. You have a Scientific Atlanta box, but the update is for the Motorola box. No one knows if they will supply new boxes at the head end for people with SA boxes.

[ah30k]

Also there is no guarantee that when it is released, you will be able to get it. You have a Scientific Atlanta box, but the update is for the Motorola box. No one knows if they will supply new boxes at the head end for people with SA boxes.Oohh, didnt notice that... If you have an SA box you are likely not going to get the Cocmast/TiVo any time soon. They would need to swap out the whole headend infrastructure to switch from SA STBs to Moto STBs.

[jctivo]

Oh, so I didn't know that Scientific Atlantic Box was not covered in the Comcast-Tivo deal.

And I'm new to the idea of adding an external hard drive for the SA8300 and you guys are telling me that it's probably not possible because Comcast hasn't turned it on (need to read up on avsforum for that).

So looks like I need to find some more money to buy a series 3 (i.e. wait for the price to drop).

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

[DrDravenStone]

I'm surprised that this is the first thread we've seen on the subject of the potential cable co STB's with tivo competing with the S3.

I would think that the potential to get cable co rental box for what would likely amount to about the same cost as a tivo monthly sub running the tivo software would be the biggest question mark in deciding whether or not to pull the trigger on the S3 (I'm presuming that when doing the math you actually *could* afford the S3, which I can't right now so it's moot for me)...

IF the cable co's are going to give us a HD capable STB with the tivo UI, that's got to be the biggest threat to widespread S3 adoption. At the moment, I'm rooting for it, since it's the likely way I get to record HD with the tivo interface.
I know a lot of folks want the TTG and MRV, but those of us who just want to time shift STILL appreciate the beauty of the tivo guide, season passes, conflict manager, suggestions, wish lists(big time) etc... These (IMHO) KEY features would likely be available on a cable co STB running tivo. Paired with dual tuner's (sa8300 with tivo anyone?) and that's a big win for the average consumer of cable...

[jfh3]

Anyone that knows for sure can't say.

[mickeymammoth]

I think the Comcast Tivo will be huge competition for the S3. But only in Comcast's market. And high end users will still get the S3 for the larger hard drive, newer hardware, etc. And there are those of us who don't want to wait for the Comcast Tivo too!

[bdraw]

#1 Comcast TiVo isn't out yet, if you want to record HD Cable TODAY then you need the Series3
#2 As mentioned many people don't have comcast and many of those who do don't have a Moto box.
#3 Capacity
#4 Features(won't know exactly until released)

[Amnesia]

#1 Comcast TiVo isn't out yet, if you want to record HD Cable TODAY then you need the Series3Or the existing Comcast HD DVR box...

[R. Kalia]

Tivo on a Comcast box will make Comcast PVRs MUCH more attractive.While a Series 3 is MUCH better than a current Motorola 6412/3412, it will have advantages but also disadvantages over a Motorola 6412/3412 with Tivo. But the price difference ($800 vs $0) isn't marginal, and the monthly costs will be different too (Tivo monthly fee plus fees for TWO cablecards, vs Comcast PVR monthly fee, currently $10 in my area but may be higher with Tivo).

So the plan is probably to sell the Series 3 at high prices for a few months to early adopters, then cut back production as demand drops when the Comcast Tivo is released. Breaking into the cable business is more important for Tivo than selling a few more standalones. Of course, there will still be demand for standalones from non-Comcast areas.

Since I am in a Comcast area, I am going to wait. There's not a lot of HD available today anyway. Now if the S3 had inputs other than coax (e.g. component inputs), it would have been more versatile than the Comcast Tivo and worth considering.

[DrDravenStone]

I've got to tell you, I got my first lifetime sub Feb or March of 2000 (don't talk to me about missing the grandfather date for a one time transfer!) I have been as fanatical about tivo as anyone for years and years. Know what I'm researching in the other tab? How to hook up an external drive to the SA8300HD box. I got the latest firmware that adds the start from beginning and fixes the kick to live bug. It sucks, it's a completely unfriendly user interface, doesn't have the tivo features I care about, but you know what... it does timeshift HD content on 2 turners at a price point I can currently afford. I have to admit that the more I think about it, the more willing I am to live with the obviously inferior product that I get from my cable co now that I have an inkling of hope that in a year or two I can score a tivo UI with a download to my existing SA box.

Let's take a look a that list that was just posted, presumably in defense of getting the S3 now:

#1 Comcast TiVo isn't out yet, if you want to record HD Cable TODAY then you need the Series3
#2 As mentioned many people don't have comcast and many of those who do don't have a Moto box.
#3 Capacity
#4 Features(won't know exactly until released)

#1 that's just wrong. It's right only if you want to record HD Cable via a TIVO today... there are plenty of other (admittedly inferior) options that allow you to record cable HD, and have been for some time at that.
#2 That's true, I don't. I have Cox and an SA box, yet I am being told that the Tivo UI is coming to me sometime... Heck we waited through TWO CES announcements of the S3, I can wait a bit longer now that I am weighing the options...
#3 my SA box is expandable TODAY, the S3 is not yet expendable.
#4 this is the kicker... Here is where a Stand Alone Tivo should kick the butt of a cable co STB for some. MRV, TTG, HMO's are all speculation when it comes to the STB, but I would guess you would not being seeing a lot of those toys. Dunno.

As I said before, for me... The UI, the guide, the intelligence of the CORE Tivo system is what I want, not the other stuff. If I want to geek out I'll use my modded XBOX with media center on it and push stuff all over the network. I suspect the millions of people that are going to soon be entering the HD market (read the every day non TCF/AVS Forums/Home Theater Nut Jobs some us are) are really not interested in figuring out how to take the latest episode of lost on the subway via their comcast box. That marketshare has got to be the VAST majority of users that are not already in this game. Curiously, even though I consider myself among those normally on the cutting edge, I am some how finding that the inroads tivo may make to the mainstream via cable co deals is something I might just wait for.
On the other hand, if I had an extra 1000 bucks, I'd be having the truck rolled to my house Saturday for an install of two cable cards ;)

[ah30k]

No one seems to remember that there is one more plus for Comcast TiVo...

VOD will work!

[DrDravenStone]

And please understand that I'm not simply another guy whining about the price or the lack of features. I'm not at all. Seriously, I think the S3 is an awesome piece of equipment and is worth every penny. The R&D of that product and it's typical best of breed feature set make it stand out WAY above and beyond anything currently available. I'm just very very curious about the ramifications of the cable co deals on the viability of that product.

Let me put it this way, if I had not read a few weeks back (or whenever it was) that Tivo had signed a deal with Cox to offer their software on a Cox STB, the only question I would have about the S3 is how I can get one before the 31st since I would want to do a lifetime transfer from one of my old S1's. But now, I'm thinking that just might not be the best way to go. And for me to think that way is... well odd.

[ITGuy72]

I wonder why the SA gear is being left out of this? Something political/affiliation related or just that Moto is the most prevalent..?

[DrDravenStone]

The comcast port featured moto hardware, but cox has more SA hardware than moto, so the theory is that there will be wider deployment of the moto hardware, first with comcast then with the cox markets on moto before we see anything on SA hardware. Though the speculation also exists that having made the move to the moto hardware signficantly reduces the transition time to the SA hardware.

ah30K, that's right... no concerns about CC 2.0 with a Cable CO STB. Of course, you're still paying a (higher) rental.
I think what I find most interesting is that in this case, if you do a cost benefit analysis of cable co STB with tivo vs. buying a stand alone tivo, it's pretty tough math to come out on the side of the stand alone being the winner. In the 6 years I've been a tivo kind of guy, I would never have suspected I would feel that way, yet here I am coming up (I think) with that conclusion.

[bkdtv]

I wonder why the SA gear is being left out of this? Something political/affiliation related or just that Moto is the most prevalent..?
The hardware design of SA boxes is completely different. Scientific Atlanta DVRs use a processor and chipset solution from ATI.

Motorola DVRs use Broadcom chipsets just like Tivos. In fact, the Tivo Series3 uses the same Broadcom processor and video chip as the Motorola 6412. The older DirecTivo HR10 also used the same chip.

Tivo could have used a more advanced chipset in the Series3 -- the chip in the Series3 is 1.5 generations old -- but they chose to use the BCM7038 part (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf) first shipped in 2H 2004. I would be willing to bet that Motorola's use of that Broadcom part had at least something to do with Tivo's decision to go with the same chip (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf) -- despite its slower processor and more limited 2D/3D capabilities relative to more recent solutions (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7400-PB04-R.pdf) from Broadcom.

Because the Series3 and Motorola 641x core hardware is the same, this probably makes it much easier for Tivo to support both products with a single software base. The primary differences between the Series3 and the Motorola 641x hardware include: 1) BCM7411 add-on decoder (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7411-PB05-R.pdf) for MPEG-4/VC-1, and 2) use of two Samsung receiver (http://www.samsung.com/products/semiconductor/SystemLSI/DigitalMedia/D_n_VASSP/D_TV_DigitalTV/S5H1410/S5H1410.htm) chipsets with ATSC and OpenCable support.

[DrDravenStone]

bkdtv:
So that sounds to me like those of us looking for a SA port should not be too excited yet?

[bkdtv]

So that sounds to me like those of us looking for a SA port should not be too excited yet?
I wouldn't expect it in 2007. Beyond that, anything is possible.

[mindstorm]

No one seems to remember that there is one more plus for Comcast TiVo...

VOD will work!

Actually another big plus for the Comcast DVR is the firewire output (well at least for me)

[ITGuy72]

bkdtv: thank you for that very detailed answer! Do you work in the industry? If not I applaud your in-depth knowledge!

[nhey]

If you read the interview with the COO of Comcast at Tvpredictions you will see that he states that the DVR with TIVO will be out THIS YEAR, and that the new Panasonic DVRS will be out next year with double the current capacity (at least double).


Seems to me that the S3 is not a wise investment if you can stomach the current Comcast DVR a couple more months.

[bkdtv]

Sorry to say but the COO's information is a bit out of date.

I've talked to the person at Comcast responsible for the Tivo-on-Motorola rollout and he says their plans got pushed back a few months. One or two markets may see the software in late November or December, but the rest won't see it until 1Q 2007.

[shady]

Do Cable Boxes have to have CableLabs certification like cablecards do? I was thinking that the cable companies would pe pressured by the content providers to protect their digital content.

If not, then it's feasible that the Comcast TiVo would have multi room viewing and even TiVoToGo!

[eisenb11]

Being that Comcast loves HDCP I'm sure you won't have to worry about them not finding ways to protect the content :D

[AndrewFischer]

If not, then it's feasible that the Comcast TiVo would have multi room viewing and even TiVoToGo!


Didn't someone announce that the Comcast DVR with TiVo service would have a subset of TiVo features?

[RichB]

Didn't someone announce that the Comcast DVR with TiVo service would have a subset of TiVo features?

Of course, the series 3 has a subset of the TiVo features :D

- Rich

[Harrypr]

I can't help but wonder if the "delay" of introducing the Comcast Tivo is a martketing ploy by Tivo to get as many S3's in service first? Regardless, after waiting all this time for Tivo to FINALLY come out with a HDCable version, I can easily wait a few more months for the Comcast Tivo software download. I'm currently using a Moto DCT3412, and it's actually works very well. Of course, I want theTivo software which is in a class by itself, but I'm not convinced a S3 would be better than theComcast Tivo version. Without the anticipated "Tivo to Go"-option what would be the advantage for a Comcast customer with a current Tivo software upgradeable DVR (like the DCT3412) to purchase a S3? Of course, if Comcast were to cancel it's plans to offer the software upgrade of it's Moto DVR's, I'd strongly reconsider buying a S3 after all, even if it meant losing "On Demand".
The other "Wild Card" in all this is Windows Vista. I'm currentling testing RC1 on my Vista ready laptop. The Interface is very nice, although of course the cablecard (ATI Ocur) tuner isn't out yet. It will be interesting in a few months to read reviews and comparisions of all three products!
:D
Harry

[megazone]

#2 That's true, I don't. I have Cox and an SA box, yet I am being told that the Tivo UI is coming to me sometime...*WHO* is telling you that? The Cox deal is for Motorola hardware, just like Comcast.

[megazone]

The final features of the Comcast (or Cox) software are unknown. But it is likely they will support OnDemand & PPV, which the S3 does not. Conversely, the S3 supports OTA, which the cable boxes do not. The S3 will also have TiVoCast and more broadband content in the future, it is likely the cable boxes will not have this because it would compete with the OnDemand and PPV.

The cable boxes probably *will* have music, photos, and HME, just like the S3. Some boxes have Ethernet, most have USB for adapter.

They'll probably get external expansion when the S3 does (unless the S3 gets it before the cable software ships, of course) - providing the cable box has eSATA, of course. All of the core features will be the same.

I'm not sure the cable boxes would be able to use TiVo Central Online and the other online scheduling options, we'll see.

If/when the S3 gets MRV/TTG/TTCB maybe the cable boxes will, but that could be questionable.

[pkscout]

No one seems to remember that there is one more plus for Comcast TiVo...

VOD will work!

Except the person who posted that about three replies up from you. ;)

[classicX]

I think the Comcast Tivo will be huge competition for the S3.

Competition.

<Inigo Montoya> You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. </Inigo Montoya>

Either is a win for Tivo - neither piece of hardware is subsidized by Tivo and any fees are nearly 100% profit.

[DrDravenStone]

*WHO* is telling you that? The Cox deal is for Motorola hardware, just like Comcast.

Cox and Tivo are telling me that... They had a big press release and everything. It was very exciting.

Do you have information that is not publicly available that says Cox will only deploy a tivo UI option to the minority of their end users who happen to have moto boxes? Is there any evidence anywhere that says tivo will not port to the SA hardware once they have finished the motorolla ports?

[RichB]

I suspect that the video processing, analog encoding at least will be better on the S3. The rent-a-box tends to be as inexpensive as possible.

- Rich

[bkdtv]

I suspect that the video processing, analog encoding at least will be better on the S3. The rent-a-box tends to be as inexpensive as possible.
Read my previous posts on the subject.

The Series3 and latest revision of the 641x use the same cpu, core video processing, and analog encoding hardware. Many were hoping Tivo would use better video processing -- Broadcom offers it -- but they didn't. The only explanations are cost (<$20 difference), better software compatibility with the Motorola boxes, or they felt it would delay time to market.

[megazone]

Cox and Tivo are telling me that... They had a big press release and everything. It was very exciting.

Do you have information that is not publicly available that says Cox will only deploy a tivo UI option to the minority of their end users who happen to have moto boxes? Is there any evidence anywhere that says tivo will not port to the SA hardware once they have finished the motorolla ports?
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6365434.html

Admittedly, it says:
Cox spokesman David Grabert said Cox will initially deploy TiVo on Motorola set-tops in early 2007. TiVo will be available on SA set-tops at a later date. Comcast has a similar deployment schedule with TiVo.

But, from what I've heard, porting to SA hasn't started yet. So that is a much 'later date', might not be 2007.

[DrDravenStone]

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6365434.html

Admittedly, it says:
Cox spokesman David Grabert said Cox will initially deploy TiVo on Motorola set-tops in early 2007. TiVo will be available on SA set-tops at a later date. Comcast has a similar deployment schedule with TiVo.

But, from what I've heard, porting to SA hasn't started yet. So that is a much 'later date', might not be 2007.
So basically you and I agree on the point? I'm just trying to figure out what your position is/was and where we were going with this part of the discussion.

I find the MUCH more interesting aspect of it all the question on whether the S3's appeal is considerably diminished (for some) by the prospect of the core tivo feature set coming to cable STB's en masse sometime in the (perhaps more distant than we would want it to be) future.

I think in that regard it comes down to the utility of tivo in it's various incarnations. What I think this thread and dozens of others show is that there are varying levels of interest in the feature sets of DVR's. Those that are upset about TTG and MRV not being available clearly utilize their tivo's in ways that others don't. For me, as I've stated a few times already, I LOVE the core feature set, the same stuff that was shipped on my series 1 tivo that I got in early 2000. The season passes, wishlists, suggestions, a snappy UI and integrated guide data. In fact, the only software advances since I got this thing that really make a difference in my life was the newish ability to deal with those overlap of a minute or two in a program.
I don't want or need nearly any of the bloat that has slowed my UI down to a crawl on my series 2 box.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have a dual tuner HD DVR that reliably records the stuff I want and allows me to watch it when I want to, my way (sound like a slogan we all know and love?). And you know what, for the most part the SA box has done that. Not as pleasantly as the three tivo's that I have, but it's done it.
All I'm saying is that it seems to be clear that tivo is going to break ino the STB market (at least in many areas, including mine) sooner or later and I'm beginning to think that I'm better off sticking with the not as crappy as it was before the latest firmware update but still pretty darn crappy in comparison to tivo SA8300 for the near term rather than jumping right on an S3 tivo. And like I've also said a few other times before, if I was flush with cash I would likely just drop the 1K for a new S3 and a lifetime transfer anyway, because I'm sure this box kicks ass, but I'm not going to make a lifestyle adjustment or burn a credit card up to be able to make the purchase. If the prospect of having to live without tivo and HD forever unless I went with the S3, that might be different...