So what's the big deal about THX ?

[thechiz]

The TiVomercial video clip spent a long time hyping up THX certification.

When recording a digital cable signal I thought that the S3 just
recorded the data stream exactly as it was received.

My SA8300HD cable DVR box already does this, then I output the video signal to the HDTV via component cables (not HDMI I admit) and use a digital audio
cable (not the optical digital audio) to output to the audio receiver.

Is it really that big a difference using HDMI and optical digital audio ?

Does the S3 do something magical internally ?

Why would it be any better than my current digital cable HD DVR ?

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

[Leo_N]

The TiVomercial video clip spent a long time hyping up THX certification.

When recording a digital cable signal I thought that the S3 just
recorded the data stream exactly as it was received.

My SA8300HD cable DVR box already does this, then I output the video signal to the HDTV via component cables (not HDMI I admit) and use a digital audio
cable (not the optical digital audio) to output to the audio receiver.

Is it really that big a difference using HDMI and optical digital audio ?

Does the S3 do something magical internally ?

Why would it be any better than my current digital cable HD DVR ?

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

For info on what THX is, see: http://www.thx.com

I think the length of the THX opening is because that is the standard THX opening whenever you see a movie that has been mastered (not sure if that is the right word - but I mean the audio has been done to that spec) to that certification.

[phox_mulder]

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

It means TiVo paid Mr Lucas (or is it Spielberg?) a big chunk of $$ to be able to slap the logo in the opening animation.

I was always under the impression that it was the environment that was THX certified,
I.E. the room, seating arrangment, fabric used in the seating, type of paint on the walls, material used in the ceiling, and placement of speakers, etc.

Marketing ploy, plain and simple.


phox

[Dssturbo1]

The TiVomercial video clip spent a long time hyping up THX certification.

When recording a digital cable signal I thought that the S3 just
recorded the data stream exactly as it was received.

My SA8300HD cable DVR box already does this, then I output the video signal to the HDTV via component cables (not HDMI I admit) and use a digital audio
cable (not the optical digital audio) to output to the audio receiver.

Is it really that big a difference using HDMI and optical digital audio ?

Does the S3 do something magical internally ?

Why would it be any better than my current digital cable HD DVR ?

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

in reality not much at all. unless your george lucas and reaping in the fees.

[btl-a4]

I think I read somewhere that in order to get a device THX certified you have to pay Lucas Inc. something like $300,000 to look over and approve your design. Then kick them like $30 per unit. So basically the box could have cost less and sounded exactly the same, but wouldn't have a THX logo on it.
I hope you can have the TiVo make the THX sound on command, cause that would almost be worth the extra $30. I like that sound alot.

[cbordman]

You can pay Lucas to stick THX on any device. It means nothing.

[megazone]

I hope you can have the TiVo make the THX sound on command, cause that would almost be worth the extra $30. I like that sound alot.TiVo+0 - it is the new boot animation.

[echodave]

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

It means that the next time Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith plays on HBOHD, if you have a Series 3 you will actually be sucked into the movie and thrown into a pit of lava while George Lucas sits on the hillside rolling naked in a gigantic pile of money. :D

[megazone]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2000/20001023h.jpg (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/10/23)
I know it isn't Lucas, but this thread just made me think of one of my favorite strips. :-)

[HDTiVo]

My interest in the meaning of THX is for the quality of encoding analog content. The Press Release refered to HD content, so I don't know if THX indicates anything about analog quality.

Is there any difference in the HDMI output of a digital content recording from one device to another?

[skaeight]

My interest in the meaning of THX is for the quality of encoding analog content. The Press Release refered to HD content, so I don't know if THX indicates anything about analog quality.

Is there any difference in the HDMI output of a digital content recording from one device to another?
From what I understand the Series 3 uses the same encoder as the DT uses. So THX doesn't mean a whole lot there.

I like how on tivo's webpage they have a comparison betwen the S3 and Cable/Sat DVRS and they have THX listed as one thing that's different. Who really cares though? Most people that do probably don't even know what THX really means.

[aaronwt]

Well at least you can listen to the THX sound whenever you want!

[zfalcon]

FYI, Lucas no longer owns THX. It's been spun off.

[eisenb11]

It means TiVo paid Mr Lucas (or is it Spielberg?) a big chunk of $$ to be able to slap the logo in the opening animation.

I was always under the impression that it was the environment that was THX certified,
I.E. the room, seating arrangment, fabric used in the seating, type of paint on the walls, material used in the ceiling, and placement of speakers, etc.

Marketing ploy, plain and simple.


phox

It was Lucas who did the THX thing.

There are actually a bunch of different THX certs. The whole room thing was in regard to a THX commercial cinema. Part of the THX deal with cinemas was that they also had to rent a special crossover from the THX guys.

Then there's the THX cert for consumer gear. Apparently they had different requirements on what your stuff needs to meet for various levels of THX certification - it gets even more confusing because they keep renaming the darn certs.

For example, the original THX cert'ed equipment (from a long while back) basically meets the same specs as today's THX Ultra certification.

Other certs, like THX Select are actually a lower-end cert. A THX, cert, which was once good, is now not a bid deal. If I recall, generically branded THX is the lowest of the certs.

So the THX cert on the S3 really is just eye candy and a pretty decal. While the minimum THX does guarantee certain characteristics, none of them are really a big deal anyways. It would be more exciting to see the S3 branded THX Ultra.

One note though, is that I'm more familiar with THX specs in regards to receivers. I may be making some mistakes since this is being applied to a video source. THX has been making things confusing by allowing their name to be plastered on just about anything... like speaker wires.

Ofcourse THX is no way an is-all, end-all. There are plenty of not THX cert'ed equipment out there that will decimate THX cert'ed equipment.

So... after reading all this if you are now more confused than before then I accomplished my mission... THX has become a mess of confusing and misleading information - marketting at it's best.

There is one good thought though and that by going for a THX cert (even if it's a base one) it does give the impression that Tivo is taking the unit seriously! :)

[russwong]

I had the exact same question, because I was always under the impression that THX certification required a number of things for your environment. Having a THX receiver, dvr, speakers, etc doesn't really mean much. Except for the unit costs more... and is good enough to get the label.

I wonder how much cheaper the S3 boxes would have been with out the THX certification, as long as it did HDMI and digital out for audio....
otherwise, the label should only help give brand recognition to the people who are name brand crazy. Like Monster cable.

[phox_mulder]

otherwise, the label should only help give brand recognition to the people who are name brand crazy. Like Monster cable.

I think Monster Cable needs to go out and get themselves THX certified.

Unless I'm out of the loop, and they already did.


phox

[russwong]

I think Monster Cable needs to go out and get themselves THX certified.

Unless I'm out of the loop, and they already did.


phox

Do you really think a brand/marketing machine like Monster would bypass THX?

http://www.monstercable.com/thx/

[phox_mulder]

Do you really think a brand/marketing machine like Monster would bypass THX?

http://www.monstercable.com/thx/

I guess I am out of the loop.


phox

[johnh123]

The TiVomercial video clip spent a long time hyping up THX certification.

When recording a digital cable signal I thought that the S3 just
recorded the data stream exactly as it was received.

My SA8300HD cable DVR box already does this, then I output the video signal to the HDTV via component cables (not HDMI I admit) and use a digital audio
cable (not the optical digital audio) to output to the audio receiver.

Is it really that big a difference using HDMI and optical digital audio ?

Does the S3 do something magical internally ?

Why would it be any better than my current digital cable HD DVR ?

What does all this THX certification really mean ?

What you need more than THX is an optical cable to your receiver so you can get dolby digital 5.1 audio.

[thechiz]

What you need more than THX is an optical cable to your receiver so you can get dolby digital 5.1 audio.

I use a 6ft coaxial digital audio cable that I got from Radio Shack.

I could have used an optical digital audio cable but it was more expensive
and I was under the impression it did not make much of a difference.

[thechiz]

I just noticed thati if I replace the cable HD-DVR with a S3 I will have to get an
optical digital audio cable to replace the coaxial digital audio cable.

According to the S3 specs there is only an optical digital out port and
according to Megazone's review the TiVo box does not come with the cable.

[windracer]

TiVo+0 - it is the new boot animation.
Has anyone uploaded the new intro animation to YouTube yet? Are you saying it's the TiVo Guy playing around with the THX logo?

[bitTraveler]

Has anyone uploaded the new intro animation to YouTube yet? Are you saying it's the TiVo Guy playing around with the THX logo?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/videos-of-the-tivo-series3-in-action/

bit

[laserguns]

just so you know, everytime your tivo senses the tv being powered up it makes the THX noise.

[Dajad]

OK, so far we've had a lot of George Lucas jokes.

Does anyone actually know the answer to the question. I'm curious. I'd be enormously surprised if it is nothing more than a marketing gimick as most people here are suggestiong. There must be some technical difference between the THX TiVos and the other TiVos.

...Dale

[George Cifranci]

http://www.thx.com/tivo/index.html

TiVo Series3 HD DMR Achieves THX Certification
Introducing the TiVo® Series3 HD™ Digital Media Recorder, the world’s first THX Certified DVR. This latest THX performance benchmark and certification program addresses a must-have product for all HDTV buyers. With THX certification, visual quality won’t be compromised when recording HD and SD content. Whether you are recording live sports, news, reality shows or your favorite movies, the THX Certified TiVo will maintain the sharpness and detail found in the original cable or off-air signal.

THX Certified Video and Sound
THX and TiVo worked closely to design an HD digital media recorder that delivers quality that is true to the original broadcast. The THX team developed an in-depth video and audio specification for HD DVR record and playback performance. After the first TiVo box prototype was created, THX engineers analyzed it for frequency response, signal to noise ratios, color levels and deinterlacing (to name just a few tests), as well as other THX performance parameters.

THX also performed a series of evaluations, similar to the tests performed during the mastering of films for THX Certified DVDs. The TiVo box was subjected to side-by-side analysis of recorded content versus original “over-the-air” material. Together, all of this testing ensures TiVo users will experience the accurate recording and playback of content with the correct color, contrast, and black/white levels without softening the picture.

[HDTiVo]

My questions are not specific to THX, but in the area of quality which THX is supposed to also be about.


1. Suppose two different DVRs (ie. a Toshiba DVR and a Samsung DVR) recorded digital content - ie. they both would store the program identically bit for bit. Could there be any difference in the bit for bit output (assuming same format, ie. 1080i) via HDMI for the two devices? The question boils down to whether it matters what components are used to decompress and output the data via HDMI, and where S3 falls on the scale if so.

2. For analog recordings, there is obviously a difference in the stored data between two different DVR models of different design. I'm going to be looking for info related to the quality that an S3 achieves. So far what I've seen is THX is basically meaningless in this realm, and the quality may be very similar to a DT unit.

2a. What are the analog recording qualities (bit rate and resolution; audio.) My opening guess is non-DVD S2 qualities.

3. For recordings of any quality that are output to another format (ie. analog 480i or digital 720p to 1080i) thereby requiring scaling, I'm going to be looking for info related to the S3's quality of that scaling for the various combinations of input and output formats. Does THX offer any assurance at all in this area?

4. Component out. Going to look for info on quality of component out formats related to 1-3, and what value THX may provide here.

[eisenb11]

My questions are not specific to THX, but in the area of quality which THX is supposed to also be about.


1. Suppose two different DVRs (ie. a Toshiba DVR and a Samsung DVR) recorded digital conent - ie. they both would store the program identically bit for bit. Could there be any difference in the bit for bit output (assuming same format, ie. 1080i) via HDMI for the two devices? The question boils down to whether it matters what components are used to decompress and output the data via HDMI, and where S3 falls on the scale if so.

2. For analog recordings, there is obviously a difference in the stored data between two different DVR models of different design. I'm going to be looking for info related to the quality that an S3 achieves. So far what I've seen is THX is basically meaningless in this realm, and the quality may be very similar to a DT unit.

2a. What are the analog recording qualities (bit rate and resolution; audio.) My opening guess is non-DVD S2 qualities.

3. For recordings of any quality that are output to another format (ie. analog 480i or digital 720p to 1080i) thereby requiring scaling, I'm going to be looking for info related to the S3's quality of that scaling for the various combinations of input and output formats. Does THX offer any assurance at all in this area?

4. Component out. Going to look for info on quality of component out formats related to 1-3, and what value THX may provide here.

THX is both a gimmick and a technical measure. THX does insure that the output meets certain criteria, but how one judges those criteria is subjective.

For example, if you read the post above about THX and the S3 performance measures, one thing they talked about was deinterlacing performance. What, exactly, is that supposed to mean?

The deinterlacing performance of a chip can vary immensly from movie to movie and source to source.

I've also yet to hear of an actual THX certified deinterlacing and scaling solution. Let's look at the big boys: Faroudja, Gennum, DVDO, Terranex... I don't believe a single one of these is THX certified yet they represent the high-end of the market.

IMHO, THX certification in regards to deinterlacing is BS. THX certification in regards to audio is gimmicky, but at least holds a little bit of merit.

In the end this is how I see it... the S3 with THX certs is most likely better than a DVR that was thrown together with intention of producing top quality output.

This doesn't mean that the S3 is better than non-THX DVR-A in regards to output, but that it may be better.

I see the THX as a positive thing because it does show that a lot of effort went into making a good DVR and to get another company to take a good look at it and say that it's a good DVR. That is not everything, but at least it should count for *something*.

[Monty2_2001]

FYI, Lucas no longer owns THX. It's been spun off.

When did this happen? Please link to sources, thanks.

[Monty2_2001]

Nevermind really, I see that lucasfilm says it's an independent company. However, it's 'privately owned' it seems. I wonder who really owns it.

[NOD]

well, good to see all that upfront cost from Tivo that's being directly passed to us was well-spent :rolleyes

[eisenb11]

Dude, my DVR's THX startup sound pwns your DVR's boring loading screen!

[megazone]

1. Suppose two different DVRs (ie. a Toshiba DVR and a Samsung DVR) recorded digital content - ie. they both would store the program identically bit for bit. Could there be any difference in the bit for bit output (assuming same format, ie. 1080i) via HDMI for the two devices? The question boils down to whether it matters what components are used to decompress and output the data via HDMI, and where S3 falls on the scale if so.Very much yes. The recorded stream is not what is output on HDMI. The stream is decoded in the box and converted to the uncompressed digital sent over HDMI. So the decoder in the box is *key* to the quality of the signal, as well as the HDMI generation, etc. If the hardware, firmware, and software are not all good at what they do, then quality suffers.

2. For analog recordings, there is obviously a difference in the stored data between two different DVR models of different design. I'm going to be looking for info related to the quality that an S3 achieves. So far what I've seen is THX is basically meaningless in this realm, and the quality may be very similar to a DT unit.

2a. What are the analog recording qualities (bit rate and resolution; audio.) My opening guess is non-DVD S2 qualities.I know you haven't read my review from these statements. ;-)

3. For recordings of any quality that are output to another format (ie. analog 480i or digital 720p to 1080i) thereby requiring scaling, I'm going to be looking for info related to the S3's quality of that scaling for the various combinations of input and output formats. Does THX offer any assurance at all in this area?Just in general that the output is of high quality, nothing specific about scaling.

4. Component out. Going to look for info on quality of component out formats related to 1-3, and what value THX may provide here.THX isn't limited to HDMI, it is for the box as a whole, all outputs.

[megazone]

From what I understand the Series 3 uses the same encoder as the DT uses. So THX doesn't mean a whole lot there.Right fact, wrong conclusion.

While it uses the same encoder as the S2DT, the settings are VERY different. Bitrates are WAY higher (don't know precisely, but read my review for the comparison I did) and I have a hunch the resolution is 720x480 instead of 480x480 but that's just a hunch. The picture quality is distinctly improved.

[vman41]

Very much yes. The recorded stream is not what is output on HDMI. The stream is decoded in the box and converted to the uncompressed digital sent over HDMI. So the decoder in the box is *key* to the quality of the signal, as well as the HDMI generation, etc. If the hardware, firmware, and software are not all good at what they do, then quality suffers.

The MPEG decode is a deterministic process, every decoder should get the same final video fields. Some may be better at passing de-interlacing hints to the scaler when matching the source resolution to the output. Are you counting the scaling operation as part of the decoder?

[megazone]

The MPEG decode is a deterministic process, every decoder should get the same final video fields.I've seen different software decoders produce VERY different results with the same file.

[HDTiVo]

THX is both a gimmick and a technical measure. THX does insure that the output meets certain criteria, but how one judges those criteria is subjective.

For example, if you read the post above about THX and the S3 performance measures, one thing they talked about was deinterlacing performance. What, exactly, is that supposed to mean?

The deinterlacing performance of a chip can vary immensly from movie to movie and source to source.

I've also yet to hear of an actual THX certified deinterlacing and scaling solution. Let's look at the big boys: Faroudja, Gennum, DVDO, Terranex... I don't believe a single one of these is THX certified yet they represent the high-end of the market.

IMHO, THX certification in regards to deinterlacing is BS. THX certification in regards to audio is gimmicky, but at least holds a little bit of merit.

In the end this is how I see it... the S3 with THX certs is most likely better than a DVR that was thrown together with intention of producing top quality output.

This doesn't mean that the S3 is better than non-THX DVR-A in regards to output, but that it may be better.

I see the THX as a positive thing because it does show that a lot of effort went into making a good DVR and to get another company to take a good look at it and say that it's a good DVR. That is not everything, but at least it should count for *something*.

I agree that THX counts for something, in line with what you wrote. I broke the issue down into different components to look at, most importantly, to what extent the S3 handles each, but also what THX measurements are done for each, and therefore what THX certification means to each.

I hope we can find some solid info over time. Much of the first part, S3's actual performance, will come as people get a chance to use, measure and judge it for themselves.

[HDTiVo]

I know you haven't read my review from these statements. ;-)

Right fact, wrong conclusion.

While it uses the same encoder as the S2DT, the settings are VERY different. Bitrates are WAY higher (don't know precisely, but read my review for the comparison I did) and I have a hunch the resolution is 720x480 instead of 480x480 but that's just a hunch. The picture quality is distinctly improved.
What you are saying is encouraging. I had looked at your FAQ, which said only Best, High, Medium & Basic; which is part of why I tought it might be the same as non-DVD. I suppose its difficult without transfers to get at the actual specs of the recording.

The MPEG decode is a deterministic process, every decoder should get the same final video fields. Some may be better at passing de-interlacing hints to the scaler when matching the source resolution to the output. Are you counting the scaling operation as part of the decoder?
I suppose it might be very difficult to seperate the effects of the decoder and scaling from external observation, and ultimately its the final output that is most important anyway.

[cherry ghost]

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html

[HDTiVo]

Level Hours:Minutes
Best 52:00
High 76:24
Medium 120:12
Basic 303:50

Looking again at the FAQ, based on hours, it looks like bit rates for

S3 Basic could be very close to or slightly better than original S2 Basic
S3 Medium could be around S2 High or better
S3 High could be S2 Best or better
S3 Best could be close to 7.5-8Mb/sec, ie. ~ 1.5X S2 Best

[eisenb11]

Nice, I hope they enable the eSata port soon because the S3 is going to be filling up fast.

I'm a quality nut so everything will be running on "best".

[megazone]

Looking again at the FAQ, based on hours, it looks like bit rates for

S3 Basic could be very close to or slightly better than original S2 Basic
S3 Medium could be around S2 High or better
S3 High could be S2 Best or better
S3 Best could be close to 7.5-8Mb/sec, ie. ~ 1.5X S2 Best
This makes it clearer - GB/hour, full explanation is in the Review.

Model GB Best High Medium Basic
TiVo Series3 250 4.81 3.27 2.08 0.82
Humax T2500 250 2.91 1.82 1.38 0.83
Toshiba RS-TX20 120 4.50 2.61 1.28 0.85
Pioneer DVR-810H 80 5.00 2.67 1.29 0.86
TiVo Series2DT 80 3.16 2.00 1.52 0.92

[HDTiVo]

This makes it clearer - GB/hour,
Well, its about GD time. :D

[cit1991]

TiVo+0 - it is the new boot animation.

Thanks. I've been looking for that.

[dlmart2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THX

[Nalez]

Dude, my DVR's THX startup sound pwns your DVR's boring loading screen!
One cool thing I noticed thats new with the S3 into.

The intro is in dolby digital 5.1 :)

[DocSavag]

Thanks. I've been looking for that.

My wife was less than impressed when I interupted the Michigan State game to test that out :D

[sockgap]

I think TiVo went for it because the Series 1 & 2 would never have got THX approved because of the low audio sampling rate and the quality limitations of doing realtime MPEG-2 encoding. However I bet they could have got the DirectTiVos THX approved quite a while ago (they don't downsample the audio or do their own video compression) and of course the DirecTV HD TiVo would have been a shoe-in.