S3 no satellite! You lost me

[bsasso]

I was looking forward to upgrading from my S1 to S3, even at the $800 price. However I don't have cable, I watch Dish Network.
I just read a review on PCMag which states clearly that the S3 has no satellite capability!
Is this true? Killed all Directv and Dish users in one strike? That's does not seem a very clever buisiness decision.

Can someone confirm this? I hope its just a mistake, I love my Tivo and hope to enjoy my HDTV through it.

Thanks :confused:

[GoHokies!]

It's been long known that the S3 was going to be cable and AOT only by design...

D* and Dish don't use cablecard....

[TeeVee]

I agree. Completely disappointed. I know satellite providers haven't played nice with Tivo in the past but I would love to use a S3 with satellite.

[ZeoTiVo]

Is this true? Killed all Directv and Dish users in one strike? That's does not seem a very clever buisiness decision.Thanks :confused:

TiVo has also sued Dish for willful patent infringement and won. there is an injunction for Dish to turn off all infringing DVRs (90% of those in use) within 30 days that is stayed while on appeall.

[Dan203]

Can someone confirm this? I hope its just a mistake, I love my Tivo and hope to enjoy my HDTV through it.

This is confirmed. It is technically impossible for the S3 to work with satellite. The S3 units work by recording the digital bitstream directly to the hard drive. It does NOT use the external box -> analog -> digital method used by previous TiVos. Since satellites use completely different tuners and access cards then cable it would be impossible to build such a box that worked with both. The best you can hope for is that TiVo builds a similar box that's compatible with your selected DSS provider. (DirecTV already has the HR10, but it doesn't do MPEG-4 so it'll soon be obsolete due to the local channel switchover)

Dan

[bsasso]

Fighting with Dish is no reason to ditch Dish users :( Now if it is technically impossible, that is another matter. However if I understood Dan203, it is impossible for the S3, but it is not impossible to make such a box. So I'll just have to stick to my S1 with lifetime until something like it is available.

[megazone]

It is not technically impossible to make such a box - but it is impossible because neither DirecTV nor Dish will allow a 3rd party, like TiVo, to make boxes that work with their closed systems.

[bkdtv]

We have Dish Network and DirecTV to blame for the lack of a Series3 satellite. Those providers will not allow (in the case of DirecTV, no longer allow) Tivo to produce DVRs for their satellite systems. They both use encryption and will not grant Tivo a license to implement their encryption system in a product.

The technology does not exist to record HDTV from component and DVI/HDMI in a consumer product --- the professional broadcast products with this capability are typically twice the size of your computer and cost thosands of dollars-- so access to the Dish and DirecTV encryption systems was the only option Tivo had to build a HDTV Tivo for satellite.

I'm sure you've heard about the suit against Dish Network...which chose to copy much of Tivo's functionality, infringing Tivo's patents, rather than allow Tivo to compete for its HDTV DVR customers by granting them access to its encryption platform. Both Dish and DirecTV want a "monopoly" on DVR products compatible with their services.

In contrast, our government mandated that all cable providers open their encryption systems to third-parties like Tivo by way of one common standard known as OpenCable (CableCard). For this reason, and this reason alone, we will have products like the Tivo Series3 that replace the cable box / cable DVR. Over-the-air broadcasting (ATSC) is also an open standard, so the Series3 incorporates dual tuners for that as well.

[Alcatraz]

What part of "cable card" lead you to believe it would work with satellite?

The hi-def DTV receivers with TiVo functionality have already been out for years. This finally gives the cable customers (oh yeah, and antenna users <they aren't anyone's "customer"....luddites) a dual tuner with hi-def.

And if you already have a S1, they didn't lose you. You just aren't going to buy a piece of hardware that was never intended for you in the first place.

[infinitespecter]

I seriously have no idea why people thought the S3 would somehow record HD from satellite. No consumer level device (that is, under several thousand dollars) can record HD from anything but Firewire, cable or OTA. What made you think this would be any different? If you want to record SD, then the Series 2 boxes work just fine. TiVo didn't abandon anyone, your satellite companies abandoned you.

[zalusky]

This product has been talked about for two years. The number of posts in the last 3-4 months probably outweighs any other topic.

This guy just seems like a troll especially since his join date is 2002.

[bsasso]

Zalusky is right, I joined in 2002 when I purchased S1, and visit the forum whenever there is an anouncement of new stuff. I have a life, I don't live in these forums. I am glad you all know so much, that is what makes the form useful, but don't expect everyone to spend their lives in here.
There is no need to call people names, just because one is not as well informed as you. Everyone is a troll when speaking of things which are not their area of expertise.
I asked the question here because I did not know the answer, otherwise why bother?

Thanks everyone for all the replies, especially bkdtv for the detailed explanations.

[chippwalters]

Geez, give the guy a break. Not all of us have nothing better to do than keep up with the he said/she said of the TiVO/Dish/DirectTV fiasco. I, too, wanted to know what the latest in this ridiculousness is regarding DISH nor DirectTV not supporting this new TiVO box.

For those of us who already have TiVO's and Dish (I have 2 TiVO's and 1 of their extrememly lame-o PVR's), I'm just wondering when any of the satellite systems will get a clue and reallize "it's about the software, stupid", and give us PAYING customers a CHOICE. If either Dish or DirectTV will let me use a S3, I will imediately switch 3 houses over to them. And no, I don't want to use the dinosaur DirectTV TiVo destined for extinction.

I, frankly, was hoping to login here and see someone say something about some sort of work-around hack for using S3 on satellites, but it's obvious from the above posts, that's just not possible.

Super Bummer.

[Kablemodem]

All I've heard from DirecTV subs over the past year is how they plan to ditch DirecTV and switch to cable once the S3 came out. The reason being that no DirecTiVos will work once DirecTV switches to MPEG4, plus cable tends to do a better job at delivering HD. I was in that group until I learned that, as a Time Warner customer, my S3 would not work with some channels, possibly many channels, as it has not yet been dertermined how the new compression technology would be applied. And while I was reluctantly willing to give up NFLST, the real reason I went to DirecTV in the first place, I was at least going to get Howard TV with cable. But I have learned that PPV and On Demand services don't work with the S3 because of cable card issues. And while I don't currently have MRV with my Series 1 DirecTiVos, I was looking forward to replacing all my TiVos with S3s to be able to take advantage of that feature, only to find out that the S3 does not have MRV, at least for now.

So, although I was fully prepared to give up DirecTV for cable, now it is unlikely that I will. I suppose I will have to wait and see what the new DirecTV HD PVRs and MPEG4 will offer. I really don't want to give up TiVo, but the S3 turns out not to be the solution to the problem.

[bsasso]

I will risk showing my ignorance once again. In my S1 the satellite signal does not enter the Tivo directly, it goes to the receiver and from there to the Tivo.
Like wise, the HD Dish receiver has component video outputs that go directly to the HD tv. Could the S3 record that output? It would seem to me the output is no longer encoded or encrypted, since the TV can display it.

[Stephen Tu]

There's this thing called a search function. Coffee house, "search this forum", use search string something like
+"series 3" +satellite +component

One doesn't have to "live in these forums" to keep up. If you are new or have been away from any forum, the polite thing to is to search around for the answers yourself rather than just asking others to do your homework.

[zalusky]

The S1 Tivo was a standalone like a VCR.

Highend HD boxes are integrated with the providers data stream decoders.
Thus there are separate boxes for Cable and separate boxes for Satellite.

The Cable and Satellite are now starting to provider all local channels including HD channels.

As a result the Box makers be they the provider or independent like Tivo are shaving costs and eliminating integration with distinct set top boxes because they themselves have become a set top box.

Your just not going to see a HD set top box send HD content to a DVR capture device any time time soon. That is why the home media option is not on the S3 yet.

[Dan203]

Your just not going to see a HD set top box send HD content to a DVR capture device any time time soon. That is why the home media option is not on the S3 yet.

Actualy there is an FCC mandate that requires cable company STBs to include a FireWire port for doing just this. However TiVo decided to go the CableCARD route because it it's integrated and as such a much cleaner solution.

Dan

[tunnelengineer]

ok bsasso, your turn...................................

(sits waiting while eating popcorn at Flamefest 2006)..............................

[rlj5242]

the HD Dish receiver has component video outputs that go directly to the HD tv. Could the S3 record that output? It would seem to me the output is no longer encoded or encrypted, since the TV can display it. Answered in Post #8, second paragraph. If you want to record component HD video to your PC, the capture card is about $5,000.

-Robert

[phox_mulder]

I will risk showing my ignorance once again. In my S1 the satellite signal does not enter the Tivo directly, it goes to the receiver and from there to the Tivo.
Like wise, the HD Dish receiver has component video outputs that go directly to the HD tv. Could the S3 record that output? It would seem to me the output is no longer encoded or encrypted, since the TV can display it.

Look at the pictures of the back of the S3.
It's only got an antenna input and a cable input.

There is no component input, no composite input, no svideo input, no firewire input,
no way of changing the channel on the satellite receiver if you could get a signal to the TiVo.

If you want to record HD content from DirecTV or DishNetwork, you'll need to get one of their inferior DVR's,
plain and simple.

I am a DirecTV subscriber, and will be getting an S3.
Whether it is sooner or later, that's hasn't been decided yet.

There is plenty of HD content available for free zipping through the air, enough to easily fill the capacity of the S3's hard drive, ready for watching whenever one feels the urge.


phox

[bkdtv]

Like wise, the HD Dish receiver has component video outputs that go directly to the HD tv. Could the S3 record that output? It would seem to me the output is no longer encoded or encrypted, since the TV can display it.
See my reply in post #8 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4363979&&#post4363979) for the answer.

[kweenieo]

I have Dish too...so thanks for asking your original question b/c I thought it was rediculous that the new Tivo wouldn't work with satellite. But it doesn't. Too bad you got attacked for it.

[classicsat]

I have to say this:
If you want a TiVo to work with an STB you have, your only answer is a Series2 Standalone (or a Seies 1, if you care), as they have A/V in and an IR blaster.

The Series 3 is designet to directly tuen analog and digital cable and OTA. Period.

[Stormspace]

This is something I knew would happen since most people don't follow CE device news. My TiVo friend also assumed that since TiVo had always supported Satellite that they would continue to do so.

As much as I would like TiVo to state in clear fiery letters 40 feet tall that the S3 doesn't work with satellite it's unrealistic to expect any product marketing to emphasize shortcomings in a device.

[zalusky]

If Dish or DirectTV wanted to, Tivo could market another box to work with Satellite.

This particular box was always marketed to work with Cable.

Integrated Set Top boxes are not universal.

DirectTv originally let manufacturers build, feature, and market their own boxes to work with DirectTv. They changed all that a few years ago.

DirectTV has made it plain and clear they market and brand their boxes and Tivo is de-emphasized. Other than a logo on the front of the box and system information stuff, its completely DirecTV branding. Any new product if it was Tivo would be completely marketed through DirecTV.

You will not see the words satellite come from any Tivo marketing material. They are not allowed.

If something comes of Dish, they could establish a different relationship but that hasnt happened at least yet.

[chippwalters]

I will risk showing my ignorance once again. In my S1 the satellite signal does not enter the Tivo directly, it goes to the receiver and from there to the Tivo.
Like wise, the HD Dish receiver has component video outputs that go directly to the HD tv. Could the S3 record that output? It would seem to me the output is no longer encoded or encrypted, since the TV can display it.

Hi bsasso,

After a new product release by a company like TiVO, IMO, it's OK to expect on a forum a new rash of questions about how and why it works. Many times early speculation about the feature sets and workings of not yet released products change. Furthermore, TiVO makes it difficult to find answers on their website.

Asking a direct question after the product is released is always a good way to understand the 'current thinking at THAT TIME.' It appears others would rather take their time to rant rather than simply answer a question.

Here's my simplified understanding of the problem. Your S1 can, in realtime, capture. compress and store the analog data stream coming out of your satellite box (audio and video). They do this using a standard inexpensive chipset which is optimized for this sort of thing.

When you are dealling with HDTV, the data you must capture is much, much greater than a standard TV image. To do this requires much faster and expensive equipment than is available in cost-effective chipsets. This is because, by the time the data leaves your satellite box, it is already decompressed (somewhat). But, if you could capture it before it is decompressed, and store it at that time, you could solve the problem.

That is how the DirectTV TiVO works. It stores the data before decompressing. In fact, to my knowledge, the capture functionality I mentioned above doesn't exist in the DirectTV/TiVO as the stream is stored directly to hard disk.

The S3 with cable boxes is basically the same, with the exception, for standard TV, it can perform capture (I believe I read this on TiVO's website).

The satellite companies don't want to 'Let TiVO' have access to that stream of data. Frankly, the cable companies don't either, but they have to by law.

I recently sent Dish network an email telling them I would be forced to switch to cable if they won't allow me to use the much better TiVO product with their service. I know a single letter from one disgruntled subscriber won't change their mind, but if they see a trend of people leaving their service, they may decide to play nicely...who knows?

best, Chipp

[DocNo]

TiVo didn't abandon anyone, your satellite companies abandoned you.

Bingo!

Time to vote with your $$$$

[jjdolphin]

I frankly could care less about the HD content of DirecTV. So far the cable HD has been better.

I have both the crappy Moto box with Adelphia and I also have Directv with my series 2. Basically DTV is there for NFL ticket and Setanta sports. I only wish that the Series 3 could at least record the non-HD DirecTV content just like the S 2 does. This would allow me to at least retire one of my Series 2s. DirecTV box fed to Tivo 3 via S-video or composite would have been great.

Was this omission a Tivo decision? I thought that HD content was the only thing DirecTv had issues with.

[megazone]

Was this omission a Tivo decision? I thought that HD content was the only thing DirecTv had issues with.Why put SD inputs on the S3 when it would be no better than the S2/S2DT which is available? It'd just raise the cost of producing the box, and for the market the S3 is aimed at, it'd be a waste.

TiVo left A/V inputs off the box because that isn't the market the box is designed for. If that's what you want, they have the S2/S2DT.

[atmuscarella]

I know this topic has been beat to death, but TiVo has some extent abandoned satellite, combo satellite/OTA and SD OTA users by the fact that none of their latest products provide all the functionality that TiVo could have provided for satellite & OTA users.

This may make perfect business sense and I am sure helped to keep the cost of the units down, but did short changed satellite, combo satellite/OTA and SD OTA users.

First lets look at the Series 2 DT, if they had added a duel SD analog and digital OTA turner the box could also have served OTA SD users and added the ability for combo satellite/OTA users to record 2 thinks at once. Instead we have a box that completely abandons OTA and combo satellite/OTA users and did little for satellite only users.

Second lets look at the Series 3, which completely abandons satellite users, TiVo could have included SD A/V inputs to allow satellite users the option of recording HD OTA and SD from their Satellite box, but they didn’t .

Like I said above these decisions may make perfect business sense, but as a combo satellite/OTA user both the Series 2 DT and the Series 3 have been a disappointment.

Thanks,

[Stormspace]

Why put SD inputs on the S3 when it would be no better than the S2/S2DT which is available? It'd just raise the cost of producing the box, and for the market the S3 is aimed at, it'd be a waste.

TiVo left A/V inputs off the box because that isn't the market the box is designed for. If that's what you want, they have the S2/S2DT.

What's an extra $100.00? I'm just saying... :)

[toots]

Seems like a good time for at least DirectTV customers to try out cable or OTA and see what HD is really supposed to look like.

[jjdolphin]

Why put SD inputs on the S3 when it would be no better than the S2/S2DT which is available? It'd just raise the cost of producing the box, and for the market the S3 is aimed at, it'd be a waste.

TiVo left A/V inputs off the box because that isn't the market the box is designed for. If that's what you want, they have the S2/S2DT.

What do you mean no better than S2/S2DT? Just because you add a composite in doesn't all of a sudden bring the Tivo 3 down a notch. HD recording by itself elevates the S3 above S2. Adding standard def recording of satellite would in fact add more to it. HD recording of cable, OTA and standard def of DirecTV/Dish. I think that it gives it an added value, especially for someone like myself who has cable and DTV.

I already have S2 that records my cable and satellite, now I will have to add one more box rather than replace the S2 with Tivo3.

I can accept your argument that Tivo made a conciouse effort to design the Tivo 3 for the cable market exclusively. However, the assertion that the addition of composite would bring it down to the level of S2 is not valid.

[Stephen Tu]

Are there that many satellite users that want to do analog recording, suffering reencoding + loss of digital audio, vs. just getting a satellite DVR? Wouldn't DirecTV users just use a Tivo HR10-250 instead of series 3? Is Dish VIP622 so bad that just for Tivo UI, people would want to record one channel only & SD reencoded analog only, vs. 2 ch + perfect digital AV capture + HD?

I think Tivo was right to drop this support, it's already a costly product & I doubt it would draw enough satellite users to offset increasing the cost for everyone who doesn't need it.

[derekcbart]

I am currently a Dish Network subscriber, but on Tuesday TimeWarnerCable in Los Angeles will be hooking up my S3. I have had many email discussions with Dish about trying to get them to work with TiVo since they are losing the lawsuit, but they have no interest in ever working with TiVo.

Here is a quote from their last email:
"DISH Network believes the lower court ruling was wrong, and should be reversed on appeal. We also continue to work on modifications to our new DVRs, and to our DVRs in the field, intended to avoid future alleged infringement and to permit you to continue using your DVR even if TIVO wins the case."

Aside from the fact that every one of their responses kept ignoring that I did not have one of their DVRs but actually had TiVo it is very clear from this last response that Dish Network is going to be re-engineering their DVRs to avoid lawsuits rather than working with TiVo on creating a useful HD Satellite TiVo.

If Dish Network had decided to work with TiVo then I wouldn't have ordered the S3 on Tuesday.

[Andrew McDonald]

Seems like a good time for at least DirectTV customers to try out cable or OTA and see what HD is really supposed to look like.

That's not an option for all of us. I live too far out to get a reliable HD signal on OTA and cable doesn't come anywhere near my house.

Even if it did I wouldn't give Comcast my money ever again. They are the reason I got DirecTV in the first place.

[DocNo]

I know this topic has been beat to death, but TiVo has some extent abandoned satellite, combo satellite/OTA and SD OTA users by the fact that none of their latest products provide all the functionality that TiVo could have provided for satellite & OTA users.

First, Tivo didn't abandon satellite users, the satellite companies did.

Second, there is no reason for the series three to support satellite - the S2 already support satellite just fine.

This may make perfect business sense and I am sure helped to keep the cost of the units down, but did short changed satellite, combo satellite/OTA and SD OTA users.

Again, it's not Tivo's fault they are loosing access to the digital stream, and they already have a perfectly reasonable solution for handling analog signals.

First lets look at the Series 2 DT, if they had added a duel SD analog and digital OTA turner the box could also have served OTA SD users and added the ability for combo satellite/OTA users to record 2 thinks at once. Instead we have a box that completely abandons OTA and combo satellite/OTA users and did little for satellite only users.

Uh-huh. How do you propose Tivo control two external satellite tuners? Teach users to build IR forts or bundle them and scotch tape in with the box? Get real - coupling a single tuner S2 Tivo's with a single external box is hard enough - trying to get two to work with one dual tuner S2 box would be a total support nightmare!

Second lets look at the Series 3, which completely abandons satellite users

Again, Tivo didn't abandon satellite - satellite abandoned Tivo

TiVo could have included SD A/V inputs to allow satellite users the option of recording HD OTA and SD from their Satellite box, but they didn’t .

Funny, I missed the announcement from Tivo where they stated they will no longer be selling the S2 and only the S3.

Oh, that's right - they didn't!

The S2 works just fine with analog satellite signals (with the appropriate analog box).

Like I said above these decisions may make perfect business sense, but as a combo satellite/OTA user both the Series 2 DT and the Series 3 have been a disappointment.

If you want to be ticked at someone for not supporting native digital access to your content, get pissed at your content provider (i.e. your satellite provider). Tivo is a their mercy, not the other way around.