Tivo Lost a Subscriber - Series 3

[dekrieger]

This is my first post, though I read this board on a regular basis. I am a huge fan of Tivo and the Tivo product. It is a shame that I am forced to write today that I will not be a Tivo Subscriber for much longer. I recently purchased an HDTV and love all that it has to offer. One thing that is substandard is the series 2, but I think we all know that. So the excitement around the Series 3 was huge for me as it was for everyone on this board. I know that the rumors about a $799 price floated around, and maybe I was naive, but I kept hoping that would not be the case.

I actually find the pricing of the Series 3 to be insulting. $800 for the right to watch TV. While I do not have the Time Warner HD PVR, I have seen it in use, and I cannot beleieve I am saying this, but I am going to go switch out my HD box for it this weekend. I know I am only one person's opinion, but lets face it, the Tivo community is a small community. Most people want the ease of use of having the cable company come install the box and fix it if it is broken. So Tivo needs to keep its current subscribers. Why then, would they come out with a box that costs as much as an entry level HD TV

[mumpower]

I actually find the pricing of the Series 3 to be insulting.

I agree completely.

[rainwater]

If you don't like the price, don't become an early adopter. The S3 does more than give you the "right to watch tv". I'm not sure even sure what that statement is suppose to mean. Everyone's experience with cable company dvr's varies. But in general, it is not a good experience. While they do offer DVRs at a cheaper rate, they are also subsidizing these costs for which TiVo can not possibly do. If you really want a S3, then just wait until the price comes down. Remember, this is a first generation product. There are always costs involved with becoming an early adopter of such a piece of hardware.

[talmania]

Enjoy the bug-ridden Motorola or SA HD-DVR they will provide you with along with the tiny 120GB hard drive. I know that I sure haven't...I can't wait to get back to Tivo.

If 800.00 is too much then wait a few months and the price will probably be half.

[hiddentrout]

...I actually find the pricing of the Series 3 to be insulting. $800 for the right to watch TV. While I do not have the Time Warner HD PVR, I have seen it in use, and I cannot beleieve I am saying this, but I am going to go switch out my HD box for it this weekend...I made that same jump when the H10-250 came in at $1kish.

The calculus is still the same. You'd have to use your S3 for ~7 years (assuming the $800 purchase price) to break even over leasing a HD DVR from your cableco (assuming it's $10/month).

I'll be sitting this one out as well, but here's to hoping it drops to $300ish by sometime next year, because I love(d) my Tivo and if it ever makes sense to buy one again, I'd be all over it.

Not at $800.

[mumpower]

I love(d) my Tivo and if it ever makes sense to buy one again, I'd be all over it.

Not at $800.

We line up completely on this issue.

[BigJimOutlaw]

Half in a few months? More like a few years.

But anyway, what's Tivo to do? These things aren't cheap to make. And unless the cable co's all adopt their software, their only option is to make their own hardware.

[bsather]

Enjoy the bug-ridden Motorola or SA HD-DVR they will provide you with along with the tiny 120GB hard drive.

Or the 80GB in the slow, bug-filled piece of junk MOXI built by Motorola.

[TechDreamer]

I think the cable company DVR's cost the same as a Series 3, they just lease it.

[Sparty99]

Do you people not understand the concept of an "early adopter"? Go back and look at the cost of the first, 14-hour TiVo (I believe someone here said it was $999). You pick a price, and as soon as the unit gets down to that price, you pounce.

[megazone]

I don't understand how, or why, anyone can be *insulted* by the price of something.

I can't afford a Maybach, somehow I'm not *insulted* by that.

It is just the price of a consumer product, but a slight on your family name. If it is too expensive and that's the only issue, then just wait - the price WILL come down.

[potters2643]

I've seen this "right to watch tv" thing in a few threads now...

NOWHERE in the Bill of Rights is there any right to watch tv, implied or otherwise, not in the Constitution, nor any of the amendments. No one has the right to watch tv. Tv is generally affordable to all, but at what level is up to you. I agree, the S3 is far to expensive for most people, but I do not find it insulting. You are paying a premium to be an early adopter, or not, your choice. I also find Ferrari's to be far too costly, but I don't piss and moan because it's what I would rather be driving. It's the exact same thing. Some people can afford to ride in style, and others can not. Some people can afford to jump on the S3 train a little earlier than others. I happen to be one of the "wait for the price to drop" people. I'm not going to be pissed because TiVo wants to turn a profit on the box.

things too expensive for me:
Ferrari
Porsche
S3
spaceships
wife

:)

[dekrieger]

Enjoy the bug-ridden Motorola or SA HD-DVR they will provide you with along with the tiny 120GB hard drive. I know that I sure haven't...I can't wait to get back to Tivo.

If 800.00 is too much then wait a few months and the price will probably be half.

I don't think you get it. I would love to continue with Tivo, and will probably do so with my series 2 on a on-hd TV. But to pay $800, or even if they cut the price in half, $400, for a decice that in essence does the same thing as the cable companies, just does not make good business sense.

Yes, I know they are not the same, but I want somehting that will let me record HDTV. Tivo Series 3 will do that, so will the cable companies. If I have to endure a few bugs, then so be it, but I am not willing to pay the price. And by the way, speaking of bugs, have you noticed the problems with Tivo everytime it releases and upgrade, so dont use bugs as an excuse.

[Stormspace]

If you don't like the price, don't become an early adopter. The S3 does more than give you the "right to watch tv". I'm not sure even sure what that statement is suppose to mean. Everyone's experience with cable company dvr's varies. But in general, it is not a good experience. While they do offer DVRs at a cheaper rate, they are also subsidizing these costs for which TiVo can not possibly do. If you really want a S3, then just wait until the price comes down. Remember, this is a first generation product. There are always costs involved with becoming an early adopter of such a piece of hardware.

Excuse me, but subsidies are really not our problem. That is something tivo has to compete with in the marketplace to remain viable. Offering a product with little real difference from a cable box other than it's award winning interface isn't enough to justify the extra cost. I wanted one, but it's sadly dissappointing that it is so expensive, and lacks features I was counting on.

[hiddentrout]

Half in a few months? More like a few years.

But anyway, what's Tivo to do? These things aren't cheap to make. And unless the cable co's all adopt their software, their only option is to make their own hardware.
Frankly, that's what I'm hoping for...

Given the outcome of the E* litigation, one would hope it makes more sense for cablecos to offer Tivo's software than create their own boxes.

I've posted a few "negative" comments on the S3, but I'm certain it'll be an excellent box and a pleasure to use.

I'm certainly looking forward to the day when my DVR software returns to Tivo, unfortunately, it won't be with the S3.

[dekrieger]

I find that you coming into this forum, to waste everyone's time and complain about something very insulting as well. That's great you don't like TiVo anymore...unfortunately, and here it comes, no one else cares...

If you are that upset send TiVo an email or give them a call, don't clog up the "pipes" with your complaining..

To each his own...

I am sorry, I did not realize I forced you to read my post.

[tunnelengineer]

i got news for you. These are computers. In the S3 case, that have 2 HDTV tuners. Go try and price out a media center PC and tell me what it costs. If you look at it this way you will find it's not too bad a price.

If you think $800 is too much for a Tivo, don't buy it. It sounds like you are already enjoying your tv and S2 tivo. Great.

Tivo doesn't owe you anything so much that they should lose money on a product that has been reported to cost $500 to manufacture.

[talmania]

I don't think you get it. I would love to continue with Tivo, and will probably do so with my series 2 on a on-hd TV. But to pay $800, or even if they cut the price in half, $400, for a decice that in essence does the same thing as the cable companies, just does not make good business sense.

Yes, I know they are not the same, but I want somehting that will let me record HDTV. Tivo Series 3 will do that, so will the cable companies. If I have to endure a few bugs, then so be it, but I am not willing to pay the price. And by the way, speaking of bugs, have you noticed the problems with Tivo everytime it releases and upgrade, so dont use bugs as an excuse.

No I do get it. A HD recording capable Tivo is something that has been wanted for years (and in my case lusted after to nearly unhealthy limits :D )

I've been using the HD-DVR Motorola 6412 since the day Comcast carried it because I wanted HD recording (almost over 2 years now I think--maybe longer). Prior to that I bought and used a series 1 within the first month of Tivo's existance and when the S2 was released I bought 4 of them and gave 2 to family members to convert them to Tivo and the incredible experience/value that Tivo provided.

But then I saw HDTV and knew I could never go back. The day I got my HD capable DVR I stopped using Tivo completely. I've had to deal with the horrific interface, the frequent non-responsive Motorola unit (in my case multiple units as I've tried newer models etc) and all of it's other deficiencies and inadequacies so I could have HDTV.

I've been there and gone through that and am now GLADLY willing to fork over 800.00+ dollars so I can get back what was lost when I had to "leave" Tivo. After you experience those same frustrations perhaps you'll think differently about the cost, perhaps not.

As far as bugs, I've never seen one on any Tivo that I've owned since 1999 when I bought my first but like I said I haven't used mine in the past 2 years so things might have changed. However, I can't imagine for one second that it could even come close to the headache that has been my experience with Motorola HD-DVR's.

Here's hoping for lower prices so more Tivo fan's can enjoy HD functionality.

[rainwater]

Excuse me, but subsidies are really not our problem. That is something tivo has to compete with in the marketplace to remain viable. Offering a product with little real difference from a cable box other than it's award winning interface isn't enough to justify the extra cost. I wanted one, but it's sadly dissappointing that it is so expensive, and lacks features I was counting on.

So what features does the cable company dvr have that TiVo doesn't? Like I said, it is expensive. But that is the price you pay for being an early adopter of new technology.

[Stormspace]

So what features does the cable company dvr have that TiVo doesn't? Like I said, it is expensive. But that is the price you pay for being an early adopter of new technology.

Absolutely nothing. There's no difference other than the price.

[postrin]

Now while I don't really have a problem with the price, I think they have every right to sell a product for any price they want. I've got an HR10-250, I bought in a $1k, I love it, so I'm not in a huge rush.

When you bring up price, I'd just like to let everyone remember, these are not just 800 and done. There is a price to use tivo service, so they are also getting some subsidiary income from selling these boxes.

The box should sell for cost or close to cost, with profit coming from monthly service
fees.

Just one guy's opinion,

Paul

[Stephen Tu]

Do you people not understand the concept of an "early adopter"? Go back and look at the cost of the first, 14-hour TiVo (I believe someone here said it was $999)

Definitely wasn't that much for the 14 hr. Might have been for the 30 hour, w/ lifetime. I'm fairly certain that I only payed ~$699 + shipping, and that included the $199 lifetime service. Long time ago, I may be a bit off, but not by much. This site (http://www.cedmagic.com/history/replay-tivo.html) backs me up.

Also, at the time, the only choices were Tivo & ReplayTV. I bought both to try, ended up returning the Replay. Tivo at intro had slightly more usable quality recording time for about the same price, and had what I judged to be slightly better software. I could see immediately the tremendous convenience a DVR offered over just continuing to use my VCR, and didn't blink at the cost (and would have blinked, if lifetime wasn't available then as is the case today for new users) since there was no reasonable alternative.

Now, the situation is quite different. To me there is a reasonable alternative, the cable DVR, which has gotten me by for almost 2 years now. Tivo interface would only increase my enjoyment by some small amount over using the cable DVR. I can stand to wait for the Comcast-Tivo offering, maybe I'll rent two of them, and end up spending a lot less than series 3.

[theone]

I suppose actual sales will determine if the S3 is overpriced or not. I personally dont know anyone locally here that is going to buy one at a price anywhere near $800. And this includes working professionals with plenty of $ to spend on toys. It just doesnt seem to make sense at that price. Especially for people that are already paying for digital cable. Most everyone I know that has\had tivo's ditched them many moons ago when TWC offered their pvr that records HD.

Since the technology to record HD is not even close to being new Im not sure how this device would fall into the early adopter category. We are not talking about a blu-ray or hd-dvd player here. Just the same basic features that my S2 has but can record HD.

[Ereth]

Considering I spent FAR more than that to build a HTPC capable of recording 2 ATSC streams at once and it can't record HD from cable, I don't think $800 is that unreasonable.

In fact, I ordered one this morning.

I have an HR10-250 that I paid close to $1000 for. I have a HTPC that I built to record two more OTA channels that I paid about $1500 for. The Series 3 will be the cheapest DVR that records HDTV that I've ever owned.

[hiddentrout]

...The Series 3 will be the cheapest DVR that records HDTV that I've ever owned.
It is certainly on the inexpensive side of cost to own, although if you only care about functionality, not ownership, the equation changes drastically.

[adventurelarry]

I've seen this "right to watch tv" thing in a few threads now...

NOWHERE in the Bill of Rights is there any right to watch tv, implied or otherwise, not in the Constitution, nor any of the amendments. No one has the right to watch tv. Tv is generally affordable to all, but at what level is up to you. I agree, the S3 is far to expensive for most people, but I do not find it insulting. You are paying a premium to be an early adopter, or not, your choice. I also find Ferrari's to be far too costly, but I don't piss and moan because it's what I would rather be driving. It's the exact same thing. Some people can afford to ride in style, and others can not. Some people can afford to jump on the S3 train a little earlier than others. I happen to be one of the "wait for the price to drop" people. I'm not going to be pissed because TiVo wants to turn a profit on the box.

things too expensive for me:
Ferrari
Porsche
S3
spaceships
wife

:)

For me spending $800 is a bargain compared with the cost of teaching my wife a new television interface :D

[Demandred]

Yes, I know they are not the same, but I want somehting that will let me record HDTV. Tivo Series 3 will do that, so will the cable companies. If I have to endure a few bugs, then so be it, but I am not willing to pay the price.

And that's fine. No one is trying to make you buy it. Someday the S3 will come down in price - all products do. My first Series 1 was $400, and I got it after it had been out for over a year.

For me though, it's worth $800, and here's why.

One of my favorite shows is How I Met Your Mother. I have my Time Warner HD DVR set to record it, since it's in HD and I like to see Cobie Smulders in HD when possible. Last spring, for some unexplicable reason, the DVR just decided not to record the Season Finale. It has a To-Do List similar to TiVo, but it's more like a Might-Do List. Just because a program is listed there, doesn't mean it's going to be recorded. It might, it might not...all depends on how the DVR is feeling that day. Well, the Season Premiere of HIMYM is next week, so they re-aired the Season Finale last night. So last night, I check the Might-Do list. Yep, there it is. Start watching another show, not realizing what time it is. Check the DVR at about 7:15, and you guessed it - once again it did not record. This is one example, but basically my point is, the SA-8300 is an absolute piece of junk as far as software goes.

[larrs]

I feel the OP's pain and I believe many had hoped the price would be less. But, looking at the facts, many speculated it would fetch $400 with $21.95 or so per month. At $799 and the normal Tivo fees, it takes about three years to catch up.

However, on the other hand, my buggy Scientific Atlanta HD DVR costs me $14 per month, has e-sata capability (I have 70 hrs of HD by adding an external drive) and was replaced once when it malfunctioned at no charge.

The unwashed masses who have never had Tivo, will now never buy Tivo and unfortunately will never miss it.

[naclone]

Absolutely nothing. There's no difference other than the price.


Just like there's no difference between a Ford Escort and a Mercedes besides the price, right? Both are cars. Both use gasoline. And both get you from point A to point B.

oh, except that one sucks and the other doesn't.

[hiddentrout]

...The unwashed masses who have never had Tivo, will now never buy Tivo and unfortunately will never miss it.Unfortunately, I think you might be correct...

[redfiver]

I don't get the big hula baloo about the price. When the DirecTV HD Tivo came out, it was $1000 and people were clammering to get those with a huge waiting list! This is 200 bucks cheaper than that unit, and it will probably drop in price pretty soon. I'd consider getting this unit since Comcast has more HD channels available in my area than DirecTV, not to mention the fact that it's a tivo and not DirecTV's crappy DVR. I never use PPV or OnDemand (no on demand for DirecTV anyway...) so I'm not too worried about missing out on that.

[JPShinn]

For me spending $800 is a bargain compared with the cost of teaching my wife a new television interface :D


Amen to that, brother.

[SteakMan]

Don't forget that you can't buy DirecTV's recorder, you can only lease it.
And you have to pay $400 for the privilege.

[ebonovic]

Don't forget that you can't buy DirecTV's recorder, you can only lease it.
And you have to pay $400 for the privilege.

But then again... why own something that can only work with the provider you can obtain it from?

And most people are getting it for $299 if not better (some for PROFIT after credits and other things)

Even thouse that are purchasing it from retailers, are getting credits to bring the cost down of the unit.

[vstone]

For all of you carping about the price, please keep in mind that they have to pay for hardware, development, cablelabs certification, UL/CE certification (plus whatever they have in Canada), product support, and - oh yeah- the investors (I'm not one) would like to see a return on their money some day!

If the price doesn't mesh with your needs, wait.

[ZeoTiVo]

Why then, would they come out with a box that costs as much as an entry level HD TV
so how much did you pay for your HDTV ? and why can a complex DVR with 6 tuners not cost as much as a low end TV ?

[cheer]

Just like there's no difference between a Ford Escort and a Mercedes besides the price, right? Both are cars. Both use gasoline. And both get you from point A to point B.

oh, except that one sucks and the other doesn't.
And if there's something on this planet that people spend more unnecessary money on than automobiles, then I don't know what it is. Go ahead and "feature justify" a Mercedes to me, especially as per Consumer Reports the German cars are more unreliable than the American cars these days (and not even in the same zip code as the Japanese).

I'm not saying people who buy Mercedes are stupid or anything. But to many people, a car is a car and is used to get from point A to point B, and such people make their car purchases based on utilitarian features (size, gas mileage, reliability, the vehicle's intended use, etc.).

To a lot more people, it's somewhere in the middle...car purchases are based partly on utilitiarian features and partly on "fun" stuff. And for me, Tivos have mostly fallen into my wheelhouse in that respect. But the S3 does not. YMMV.

[cheer]

For all of you carping about the price, please keep in mind that they have to pay for hardware, development, cablelabs certification, UL/CE certification (plus whatever they have in Canada), product support, and - oh yeah- the investors (I'm not one) would like to see a return on their money some day!
None of which matters (or should matter) to consumers.

All I care about is (A) what does it cost, and (B) what do I get for that money. The rest is Tivo's problem.

[SteakMan]

But then again... why own something that can only work with the provider you can obtain it from? True, but $400 up front, that can't be recouped by selling the unit, is just too much to swallow.

I haven't been around here in months, I'll have to poke around some of the deals that have been reported.

[tivopath]

Just got an offer from Tivo to transfer my lifetime to an S3 for $199 - makes it $1k to upgrade to HD. Makes the other investments in HD (TVs, subscriptions, etc.) all worth it.

[brywalker]

The calculus is still the same. You'd have to use your S3 for ~7 years (assuming the $800 purchase price) to break even over leasing a HD DVR from your cableco (assuming it's $10/month).


HAHAHHA. You would be lucky if it *LASTED* 3 years. Beyond hacking and replacing the drive (which may not be an option...), you would be stuck with a doorstop.

I was going to jump if it was sub $500. I can't justify $800, plus another $300 for 3 years of service which you have to pay upfront and lose if the box goes south after, what, 90 days? No one in their right mind is going to buy it for $800 and pay $17 a month. If you drop $800, you do $1100.

If you get 3 years out of the stock hard disk, you are looking at $366/yr to upgrade your watching experience.

I ***LOVE*** TiVo. I ***LOATHE*** my cable companies HD DVR. I can't justify that kind of money, and neither can anyone I know (and we are ALL early adopter types with a LOT of extra money to burn).

[russwong]

i got news for you. These are computers. In the S3 case, that have 2 HDTV tuners. Go try and price out a media center PC and tell me what it costs. If you look at it this way you will find it's not too bad a price.


Actually, it's not too bad if you price out a computer to do Media center and build it yourself. I would say it's under $800 for sure and that's for much larger storage.

Is it a Tivo? No, but is it good enough? In my case, it's been good enough for 2 years, I'm just debating on whether or not I should pull the trigger on the VIP deal to transfer my lifetime, but in general, the S3 has less features then my home grown media center.

[hiddentrout]

HAHAHHA. You would be lucky if it *LASTED* 3 years. Beyond hacking and replacing the drive (which may not be an option...), you would be stuck with a doorstop...I agree, if your leased box dies, they bring you out another, no charge.

I just don't see how, beyond a boutique market (early adopters, etc), this is a winning product for Tivo.

[bkdtv]

Actually, it's not too bad if you price out a computer to do Media center and build it yourself. I would say it's under $800 for sure and that's for much larger storage.
Try building a media center that can record two different HDTV channels off digital cable. Oooops, you can't. You can't buy a PC today with CableCard support.

[bkdtv]

It almost sounds like some people think Tivo is pricing the Series3 @ $800 out of greed.

The simple fact is that this technology is expensive. The hardware is expensive. Making it all work is expensive.

The wholesale price for the Series3 is apparently about $500. I expect that the cost to Tivo for this product is about that much. There isn't any price gouging going on here. Tivo could not have offered the product for significantly less without significantly reducing the functionality of the unit (i.e. only record or watch one channel at a time).

The DirecTV HR20 DVR is of similar hardware design, without the Tivo software, and they want $399 just to lease it. Some have gotten a lease for $250-299. As part of this lease deal, they require you to commit to two years of DirecTV service. When you're done with DirecTV, you return the DVR and you don't get your money back. If you want to buy the HR20 DVR, DirecTV charges you about $800. Surprise, surprise, the cost is about same as the Series3.

[naclone]

And if there's something on this planet that people spend more unnecessary money on than automobiles, then I don't know what it is. Go ahead and "feature justify" a Mercedes to me, especially as per Consumer Reports the German cars are more unreliable than the American cars these days (and not even in the same zip code as the Japanese).

I'm not saying people who buy Mercedes are stupid or anything. But to many people, a car is a car and is used to get from point A to point B, and such people make their car purchases based on utilitarian features (size, gas mileage, reliability, the vehicle's intended use, etc.).

To a lot more people, it's somewhere in the middle...car purchases are based partly on utilitiarian features and partly on "fun" stuff. And for me, Tivos have mostly fallen into my wheelhouse in that respect. But the S3 does not. YMMV.

okay, perhaps not the most ideal metaphore but to say that tivo and a cable company dvr "do the same thing" is a gross over-simplification and a little disingenuous.

one is a top of category world beater and the other barely usable. as you say, YMMV. if you really believe that tivo and cable dvr are the same, i guss i'm just not sure why there's any room for complaint.

[loubob57]

How about the few of us out here with no cable service? I receive my programming strictly OTA. So considering I don't have a $50 (or more) monthly cable bill I think the cost of the S3 will amortize itself rather quickly for me.

[sleepeeg3]

Just got an offer from Tivo to transfer my lifetime to an S3 for $199 - makes it $1k to upgrade to HD. Makes the other investments in HD (TVs, subscriptions, etc.) all worth it.Um... what series do you have? Spending bux on a grandfather claused S1 is now sounding like a mistake, if what you say is true. If Tivo starts offering $200 lifetime upgrades to anyone with a lifetime subscription, that could make this more interesting... especially when the price comes down and more start appearing on eBay.

Right now, I will wait for them to get the bugs out and price down.

[Adam1115]

This is my first post, though I read this board on a regular basis. I am a huge fan of Tivo and the Tivo product. It is a shame that I am forced to write today that I will not be a Tivo Subscriber for much longer. I recently purchased an HDTV and love all that it has to offer. One thing that is substandard is the series 2, but I think we all know that. So the excitement around the Series 3 was huge for me as it was for everyone on this board. I know that the rumors about a $799 price floated around, and maybe I was naive, but I kept hoping that would not be the case.

I actually find the pricing of the Series 3 to be insulting. $800 for the right to watch TV. While I do not have the Time Warner HD PVR, I have seen it in use, and I cannot beleieve I am saying this, but I am going to go switch out my HD box for it this weekend. I know I am only one person's opinion, but lets face it, the Tivo community is a small community. Most people want the ease of use of having the cable company come install the box and fix it if it is broken. So Tivo needs to keep its current subscribers. Why then, would they come out with a box that costs as much as an entry level HD TV

Unfortunately for you, there are a lot of people plopping down the money for them, $800.

Some are rich, some want to be first. Regardless, "because people will pay it" is the reason they are charging that much.

When it becomes clear the people that will pay it dry up, they will drop the price. It's called supply & demand.

[cheer]

okay, perhaps not the most ideal metaphore but to say that tivo and a cable company dvr "do the same thing" is a gross over-simplification and a little disingenuous.

one is a top of category world beater and the other barely usable. as you say, YMMV. if you really believe that tivo and cable dvr are the same, i guss i'm just not sure why there's any room for complaint.
I'm not saying they are the same -- far from it, in fact. There's just a limit as to how much I'll pay for that difference. I'm not totally sure what that limit is, but it's lower than $800.

[Turtleboy]

Whuy do people whine over market economics.

I can't afford a Porsche. So what?

don't buy one then. Or wait. Jebus Crystal people are annoying.

[Stephen Tu]

I think the fundamental problem here is that the cable companies can afford to lose money on their HD DVRs as loss leaders to retain subscribers, keep them from switching to satellite, & profit from their programming fees + eyeballs for selling advertising. Tivo doesn't have that luxury & it's hard to overcome. S3 has to be justified as a premium upgrade, tough to do especially for people who have never used Tivo. I use Tivo daily & am well aware of what I am missing every time on my HD-DVR, & it doesn't bother me to the tune of $800. $300 or so, maybe $400. Some people are more fed up with their cable DVRs than I am, apparently, but I don't think great masses are. From what I read SARA is generally worse than iGuide/Moxi/MSFE.

In Canada, where in many places you have to purchase the cable box, Motorola 6412s are going for ~$650 US (though no monthly fee). In that scenario Tivo S3 looks more reasonable as an upgrade, if lifetime were available. But here the cable companies seem to be willing to eat costs for their own box so it makes for tough comparisons.

For OTA users who are satisfied w/o ESPN/TNT/USA/FX/CNN etc., but still want HD locals, you may be able to justify the price more easily by counting cable bill savings or vs. HTPC solution.

[cheer]

Whuy do people whine over market economics.

I can't afford a Porsche. So what?

don't buy one then. Or wait. Jebus Crystal people are annoying.
I don't understand your point. A new product has come out today. Some of us think it's too expensive for what it delivers. We say so. Are you saying that's an inappropriate remark? If this were a Porsche enthusiasts' forum and Porsche introduced a new car that was more than twice as expensive as the previous year's models, wouldn't you expect people to comment?

You are right, though. People can be very annoying.

[Turtleboy]

I don't understand your point. A new product has come out today. Some of us think it's too expensive for what it delivers. We say so. Are you saying that's an inappropriate remark? If this were a Porsche enthusiasts' forum and Porsche introduced a new car that was more than twice as expensive as the previous year's models, wouldn't you expect people to comment?

You are right, though. People can be very annoying.

I'm saying that people are generally upset, and they have no right to be. Just as I have no right to be upset at the amount as Porsche costs.

They do have the right not to buy it though. And if enough people choose not to buy the product, then the price will come down. If enough people do choose to buy it at that price, then the price may not come down for a while.

But again, this is a high end product. This is a Porsche. I don't understand why people are complaining that a luxury item costs luxury prices.

Deal with it.

I'm waiting to buy it till the price comes down a bit. But am I upset? Not in the least.

[bidger]

I think the fundamental problem here is that the cable companies can afford to lose money on their HD DVRs as loss leaders to retain subscribers, keep them from switching to satellite, & profit from their programming fees + eyeballs for selling advertising. Tivo doesn't have that luxury & it's hard to overcome.
Absolutely.

[landrvr1]

The fact that I'll no longer have to fiddle with switching my sony HDTV from HD to Tivo settings (and visa versa ad nauseum) is damn near worth the $800 alone...

[smak]

I don't understand your point. A new product has come out today. Some of us think it's too expensive for what it delivers. We say so. Are you saying that's an inappropriate remark? If this were a Porsche enthusiasts' forum and Porsche introduced a new car that was more than twice as expensive as the previous year's models, wouldn't you expect people to comment?


Then by not buying it, they can tell Tivo that it's too expensive!

But being insulted?? Please.

I'm insulted that the 120" LCD screen is $200,000 when my 3" B&W portable was $80.

They basically are the same thing right?

-smak-

[dj81462]

How can they entice people away from low cost cable DRVs with a $800~$1000 startup cost? Most people call their cable DVR a TIVO! They don't understand the difference. To a non TIVO user the cable HD DVR is the best thing since sliced bread. I don't see how the S3 generates new subscribers.

$1000 with the lifetime transfer...no way. I pay $5.99/month for the cable HD DVR, discounted because I pay for their HD package. I doubt the S3 would last long enough to recover the cost (15+ years).

TIVO is too late to the HD race. I bet the price drops quickly when the S3 doesn't move as fast as expected.

[russwong]

Try building a media center that can record two different HDTV channels off digital cable. Oooops, you can't. You can't buy a PC today with CableCard support.

Yeah, that's very true and one of the cons for the home grown system that I listed in my other thread asking for opinions.

In my particular case, I only want to record unencrypted QAM channels. But that con is also far outweighed by things like: putting in my own storage capacity now, being able to transfer recordings, multi-room viewing capabilities, etc which the S3 doesn't have yet and is still undetermined if and when they will get.

The real bottom line though is it doesn't have the Tivo UI and that's a big plus. Not sure if it's an $800-$1000 plus for me.

[cheer]

I'm saying that people are generally upset, and they have no right to be.
People can be upset about anything they like. Since when do we have to justify emotional reactions?

But I'm not upset. I just think it's a bad deal, is all.
But again, this is a high end product. This is a Porsche. I don't understand why people are complaining that a luxury item costs luxury prices.
If it was $2000, would you object? $4000? Luxury items can still be overpriced, you know. Calling something a "luxury item" (and I'd dispute that it really is, but that's another discussion altogether) doesn't mean the sky's the limit with respect to pricing.
Deal with it.I have my opinion too. Deal with it.I'm waiting to buy it till the price comes down a bit. But am I upset? Not in the least.
Neither am I, and that's my point. Just because we post and say, "Hey, $800, that's too much," does not mean we're "upset."

[cheer]

Then by not buying it, they can tell Tivo that it's too expensive!That's what I'm doing.But being insulted?? Please.Never said I was upset. I said the thing is too expensive.I'm insulted that the 120" LCD screen is $200,000 when my 3" B&W portable was $80.

They basically are the same thing right?What is your point?

I'm a bit frustrated by the lock-step response of, "Hey, it's better, so it costs more. How can you argue?" If I offer you a no-name DVD player for $50 or a low-end RCA DVD player for $2000, you'll take the no-name, right? So obviously, just because something is better does not mean an infinite price increase is acceptable.

Ergo, there is some price point at which the S3 would be considered overpriced by everyone here. (E.g. I expect that everyone here would consider $20,000 overpriced.)

So now we're just debating where that point is. For some of us, it's above $800. For some of us, it's not.

[pcsguymd]

Yes it was. I bought my 14 hr Philips TiVo for $999 back in late 1999. Also paid an additional $149 for Lifetime service with a now grandfathered option of being able to do a one time free lifetime transfer to another TiVo box (which I have not yet used). Boxes activated later in 2000 with lifetime lost that feature.

Definitely wasn't that much for the 14 hr. Might have been for the 30 hour, w/ lifetime. I'm fairly certain that I only payed ~$699 + shipping, and that included the $199 lifetime service. Long time ago, I may be a bit off, but not by much.

...

[sonicboom]

and why can a complex DVR with 6 tuners not cost as much as a low end TV ?

I wish people would stop saying that.
It has two tuners.

[sonicboom]

2 OTA DTV
2 QAM
2 DIGTAL CABLE
2 NTSC

So only 2 'eh? It can access 2 at a time, but it has 6.

The reason why it can only "access two at a time" is that is only has two physical tuners, each of which is capable of decoding multiple signal formats.

[Stephen Tu]

Yes it was. I bought my 14 hr Philips TiVo for $999 back in late 1999. Also paid an additional $149 for Lifetime serviceI don't believe you. Not for the 14 hr. For 30 hr I believe you. Or that you got totally ripped off & someone sold you a 14 hr at the 30 hr price. I know I would have never paid that much, and I didn't. Another link supporting my statement here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/12/02/BU9031.DTL&type=printable)

I think my forum join date gives an idea of how long I have been using Tivo.

[tewcewl]

The biggest problem I have is that I'm being asked to spend $800 on a box that I'll OWN, but will more or less become a doorstop if TiVo as a company folds and stops offering their services, then I'm SOL.

If I bought a $800 TV from Samsung, I don't have any additional costs associated with that (unlike paying $12.95/mo). If Samsung folds, I still get to use MY television which I paid for.

[Granzella]

No I do get it.

I've had to deal with the horrific interface, the frequent non-responsive Motorola unit (in my case multiple units as I've tried newer models etc) and all of it's other deficiencies and inadequacies so I could have HDTV.


Thats my main reason why I dumped my comast dvr today and shelled out $800 + 200 for the transfer fee. It gets very annoying for the motorola unit to freeze everyday for a few minutes multiple times a day.

[krypdo]

HAHAHHA. You would be lucky if it *LASTED* 3 years. Beyond hacking and replacing the drive (which may not be an option...), you would be stuck with a doorstop.


I hear you. At this price, I probably would only buy it at Costco, just a little extra protection on the investment.

[seattlewendell]

I find that you coming into this forum, to waste everyone's time and complain about something very insulting as well. That's great you don't like TiVo anymore...unfortunately, and here it comes, no one else cares...

If you are that upset send TiVo an email or give them a call, don't clog up the "pipes" with your complaining..

To each his own...
If you don't like complaining don't read forums.

[seattlewendell]

It almost sounds like some people think Tivo is pricing the Series3 @ $800 out of greed.

The simple fact is that this technology is expensive. The hardware is expensive. Making it all work is expensive.

The wholesale price for the Series3 is apparently about $500. I expect that the cost to Tivo for this product is about that much. There isn't any price gouging going on here. Tivo could not have offered the product for significantly less without significantly reducing the functionality of the unit (i.e. only record or watch one channel at a time).

The DirecTV HR20 DVR is of similar hardware design, without the Tivo software, and they want $399 just to lease it. Some have gotten a lease for $250-299. As part of this lease deal, they require you to commit to two years of DirecTV service. When you're done with DirecTV, you return the DVR and you don't get your money back. If you want to buy the HR20 DVR, DirecTV charges you about $800. Surprise, surprise, the cost is about same as the Series3.
I think you are missing the point. It's $800 dollars thats expensive. It's $800 plus $12.95.......forever. What exactly is Tivo doing with my $12.95. We were told for years that Tivo sells the boxes at a loss and The $12.95 partly goes towards the guide data and partly does to offset the box cost losses. Well now they are not selling the boxes at a loss. Why are they still charging $12.95? No more than .50 to $1 of that is the guide data fee. What is the rest for?

[charlesd81]

I have one question though. I have Comcast and they have maybe 10 or so HD channels, or so I think. I would love to have the ability to record 2 shows at once because there are many times a show I love and a show my gf loves is on, but is not rerun. I prefer this feature more over one where there are only a limited amount of HD channels. I looove HD, but not every channel is in HD. I would definitely see myself buying one, 1) when the price went down 2) and if the cable companies had ever channel in HD. And only being able to record I think it says 32 hours of HD video...ehh I'll pass. So, if you're with a cable company, what would be the benefit besides dual tuner, if there are only a limited number of HD channels?

[Stormspace]

Just like there's no difference between a Ford Escort and a Mercedes besides the price, right? Both are cars. Both use gasoline. And both get you from point A to point B.

oh, except that one sucks and the other doesn't.

Actually, I had already stated the differences to the recipient. I was being faceteous. :)

[cheer]

So, if you're with a cable company, what would be the benefit besides dual tuner, if there are only a limited number of HD channels?
Well...better interface, theoretically more reliable (depending on which box your cableco offers), being able to also record off-air stuff, HME features (music/photos/whatever), more recording space, better a/v options (native passthru, some clever scaling modes, etc.) are what leap out at me.

[f4phantomii]

If you don't like the price, don't become an early adopter.

That was my first thought as well.

I find the $800 price tag insulting as well. And keep in mind I'm a good TiVo customer...having owned a Series 1 and currently own and operate two Series 2 units.

Just to put it into perspective, I paid full retail price for all three units and even their combined prices *still* don't reach $800.

Look at the DTV TiVo units, which retail for $399, have two DTV tuners and two ATSC tuners, and all of the features of the Series 2 units. Why is that unit half the price of the Series 3 when it seems to have nearly the same features?

In any case, when I initially read the press release for the new Series 3, I immediately sent a note to my wife saying:

"Well...it's here, and outrageously expensive. I bet it will be down to $400 or less a year from now."

-Michael

[Schmidt]

I'm betting, hoping, praying that there's plenty of difference between my bug-ridden, lag-ridden, record-every-airing-of-the-same-episode-when-you-tell-it-to-record-it-only-one-time Motorola 6412 HD-DVR from Comcast and the Tivo Series 3. Everyone who has tried using the 6412 tears their hair out, screams and wants to throw it out the window!! The software could never have been beta tested by sane people before it was shoved out the door to consumers. But $800 plus $200 lifetime transfer to keep my sanity? How soon would the cost of many cases of Tums, Pepto-Bismal and Excedrin add up to $1000 if I just continue using the 6412? I have to nurse my ulcer and weigh these things (;-)

[classicX]

Enjoy the bug-ridden Motorola or SA HD-DVR they will provide you with along with the tiny 120GB hard drive. I know that I sure haven't...I can't wait to get back to Tivo.

FWIW, I've had SA HD DVRs for about two years, and have had two (!) "bugs" in that time, and both times, it was a recording that was in the list but wouldn't play.

As far as the drive size, I delete most shows after I watch them, and I've never had a problem with the size (I think mine are 160GB). This is really only important if you like to record a lot and keep a lot. At any given time, I have between 5-10 recorded shows in HD (usually 1 hour shows), and 15-20 other SD programs, and that's more than enough for me.

Also, being that I pay $10 / month for each DVR (I currently have two), if I needed more space (or need to record more than 4 shows at once) I would simply get another one and put it on another TV. $10 / month with unlimited warranty is much easier to swallow than $300 for storage expansion with a 1-3 year warranty.

Besides, the S3 has no MRV (and who knows if it ever will!), which would've been the main reason for me to upgrade. In that case, outside of the interface, it doesn't offer me much more than the cable company DVR. (You can make your arguments for the other features but I wouldn't really use them. And at this time, even those are currently disabled.)

At this time, the S3 (without all of the features enabled) is no different than a cable DVR and can offer no significant reason to spend $800 + monthly fees when I can get one from the cable company for just the monthly fees.

If 800.00 is too much then wait a few months and the price will probably be half.

That's just wishful thinking. In a few months the price may drop by $100. Even $200 is a stretch. Rebates and bundles are another story.

Good luck.

[aaronwt]

The reason why it can only "access two at a time" is that is only has two physical tuners, each of which is capable of decoding multiple signal formats.

It actually has two Virtual tuners. The ATSC tuners are seperate from the digital QAM tuners.

[whitmans77]

this topic is getting amusing, people hurt, insulted and the such. YEs the $800 price does suck but there is more stuff in life to get hurt or insulted about in life.

We all know the price is going to drop so just wait. Yes I love my 3 Tivos and I love the companybut they wont ever do anything that will hurt or insult me.

And yes I will eventually be getting an S3--im excited about it because despite all of their shortcomings, TIVO still has changed the way I watch TV.

[sommerfeld]

The biggest problem I have is that I'm being asked to spend $800 on a box that I'll OWN, but will more or less become a doorstop if TiVo as a company folds and stops offering their services, then I'm SOL.
The oztivo folks have worked out how to get guide data for australian and new zealand TV into a series 1. I'd expect that technology to work its way back north of the equator if tivo were to go under.

[classicX]

I also find Ferrari's to be far too costly, but I don't piss and moan because it's what I would rather be driving. It's the exact same thing. Some people can afford to ride in style, and others can not.

While I think we all understand what you are trying to say, your analogy is incorrect. By your analogy, one must assume first that you are capable of buying a Ferrari, in cash. Additionally, the Ferrari would not be offering any substantial reason, other than the appearance, and perhaps say, an automatic transmission, to purchase it over a free Honda Civic. You would just have to put gas in both vehicles every month.

Now it's "the exact same thing."

Given these assumptions, some people would still buy the Ferrari, because they want a Ferrari. Just about everyone interested in a new car would want the Ferrari, but most people would take the Civic. Wouldn't you "piss and moan" about the price of a Ferrari too?

[classicX]

I'm saying that people are generally upset, and they have no right to be. Just as I have no right to be upset at the amount as Porsche costs.

They do have the right not to buy it though. And if enough people choose not to buy the product, then the price will come down. If enough people do choose to buy it at that price, then the price may not come down for a while.

To say that people don't have a right to be upset is silly. People can do what they want with their emotions.

I won't be buying an S3, and when Vista comes out next January, and WILL support cablecards, + many features a Tivo could never hope to deliver, I will have to decide then if that's the direction I want to go. A HTPC + Xbox360 (Extender) seems like a much better deal ATM, even without cablecard support, namely because there are no monthly fees associated with using an HTPC.

But again, this is a high end product. This is a Porsche. I don't understand why people are complaining that a luxury item costs luxury prices.

Deal with it.

I'm waiting to buy it till the price comes down a bit. But am I upset? Not in the least.

People are complaining because this is a luxury price without luxury features. And because they can get the exact same features without the added price tag.

[cheer]

To say that people don't have a right to be upset is silly. People can do what they want with their emotions.

People are complaining because this is a luxury price without luxury features. And because they can get the exact same features without the added price tag.
^^^^^ Gets it.

[TiVotion]

The Series 3 is not a "Porsche", and it won't be a "Porsche" until it is capable of delivering the additional features that the S2 did. The Series 3 differentiates itself from the S2 operationally, right now, by being able to record 2 programs simultaneously in high definition, with the additional possibility of being able to effortlessly connect an external hard drive some time in the future.

Other than that, how is it functionally any different than the S2?

If you're talking FORM over FUNCTION (like many overpriced consumer goods), then maybe it's a Porsche. It sure is a pretty box!

Me personally, I'm a bigger fan of function over form. I'd really rather watch my high def shows in real time than to lose MRV and TTG.

[Adam1115]

2 OTA DTV
2 QAM
2 DIGTAL CABLE
2 NTSC

So only 2 'eh? It can access 2 at a time, but it has 6.

Does your analog cable ready TV have DUAL TUNERS because it can decode both NTSC and Analog Cable? NO, it has a single tuner capable of decoding either signal.

Does your single tuner digital HDTV have DUAL TUENRS because it can decode both ATSC and QAM? NO, it has a single digital TV tuner capable of decoding QAM and ATSC.

By you're definition, HDTV companies should market their TV's as having 8 tuners even though they are only capable of watching 1 or 2 at once. Most HDTV's can tune ATSC, NTSC, Analog Cable, and QAM. Doesn't mean they have 4 tuners...

[smak]

Look at the DTV TiVo units, which retail for $399, have two DTV tuners and two ATSC tuners, and all of the features of the Series 2 units. Why is that unit half the price of the Series 3 when it seems to have nearly the same features?

-Michael

Why is this hard to understand?

When you get a DTV tivo unit, you must buy directv programming. That's anywhere from $400-$1200+ a year you are also paying directv.

When you rent a cable dvr, you must buy cable programming at similar prices.

Each also have fees to rent the box. $6 for D*, many varying costs for cable.

They can afford to sell it to you for $399, or give it to you for just a rental fee because you are guaranteeing them thousands of dollars in programming income.

Walk in to a cell phone store, and say how much is this phone with 2 years of service. Free they might say, or $99.

Ask them how much it is without service, and they will say $300 or $400.

-smak-

[Phantom Gremlin]

Why is this hard to understand?
...
Each also have fees to rent the box. $6 for D*, many varying costs for cable.
It's not hard for me to understand. I think it's YOU who misunderstand.

At the beginning of this year I bought 3 R10 receivers for my D* account. They cost $100 each, total $200 because of a $100 rebate (1 per household).

Because I deactivated two older DirecTiVos, I increased the total number of active receivers on my account from 3 to 4, my monthly cost went up by $4.99 (not $6 as you incorrectly claim).

So, explain the economics of that to me! Reconcile that with your "thousands of dollars" statement.

[smak]

It's not hard for me to understand. I think it's YOU who misunderstand.

At the beginning of this year I bought 3 R10 receivers for my D* account. They cost $100 each, total $200 because of a $100 rebate (1 per household).

Because I deactivated two older DirecTiVos, I increased the total number of active receivers on my account from 3 to 4, my monthly cost went up by $4.99 (not $6 as you incorrectly claim).

So, explain the economics of that to me! Reconcile that with your "thousands of dollars" statement.

Um, PROGRAMMING. When you buy an R10 don't you promise Directv that you will keep their service for x amount of years? 2 isn't it?

Don't they say you need to keep at least Total Choice for that time period?

What's total choice per month? Something like $44.99?

Doesn't that guarantee DirecTV that you will be paying them $1,080.00 over the next 2 years.

Most people have other programming two. Some people as much as $100 a month or more.

This isn't a new concept. A company gives you a cheap or free device, and you promise to pay them x amount of dollars per month for x months of programming/service/whatever.

-smak-

[cheer]

This isn't a new concept. A company gives you a cheap or free device, and you promise to pay them x amount of dollars per month for x months of programming/service/whatever.

-smak-
So what? If I'm going to buy some programming anyway, what does this matter? It doesn't offset the cost of the S3 in any way unless going strictly OTA was an option, and for me at least it's not.

[Phantom Gremlin]

So what? If I'm going to buy some programming anyway, what does this matter? It doesn't offset the cost of the S3 in any way unless going strictly OTA was an option, and for me at least it's not.
Ahh. Someone who does understand, unlike smak.

I would have continued with DirecTV anyway because they're so much cheaper than Comcast. Now I'm giving DirecTV $4.99 more per month for the next two years. But I have 3 new R10 receivers and an additional outlet. And actually, the only commitment I have is to the basic service. I can drop the additional outlets (and their corresponding $4.99 each per month) without any penalty.

So based on all the above, if the R10 boxes cost DirecTV more than about $200 each, DirecTV couldn't afford to have given me the deal they did. I just don't see how an S3 can be so expensive in comparison. The S3 is an $1100 product if 3 years of service is included.

[Turtleboy]

Again, so don't buy it.

What else do you want?

[SLCMike]

In the end doesn't it just come down to everyone doing their own personal cost / benefit analysis? I'm not sure that TiVo has *ever* been "the least expensive way to digitally record media." With the advent of the S3, they're obviously not even close. I think you're either willing to pay what TiVo is asking for their superior interface and experience, or you're not.

TiVo doesn't generate monthly revenue from their customers anything like a cable or satellite provider does. I don't think making a comparison between the two is comparing apples to apples.

[kb7oeb]

The biggest problem I have is that I'm being asked to spend $800 on a box that I'll OWN, but will more or less become a doorstop if TiVo as a company folds and stops offering their services, then I'm SOL.

I share that concern, since its not subsidized I would be more comfortable with the price tag if they allowed manual timers on this model without a sub.

[TonyD79]

I am going to throw a different emotion into the pile. How about stunned?

I am stunned that TiVo has put this price point on the S3. As pointed out earlier, the model for years has been to discount the hardware and sell the service. But TiVo has apparently decided to make profit on the hardware AND the service. This is a change in business model.

I am stunned that people are defending the costs so much. Even in a pro-TiVo forum like this one, I don't get the comparisons to Porsches and the like. How about this analogy. Porshce came out with a new model of car that does some things better than the old one but doesn't do some of the things the old one does and UPPED the price.

I am stunned that people (although TC is a small and ardent sample) are jumping up and down to spend the money. I stood on the sidelines when good HDTVs were $4k and up and kept hearing that the prices were going to drop like a stone. But the early adopters (and I tend to be earlier than most but not to the point of spending too much money) kept the prices artificially high and now I am enjoying my wonderful SXRD that I spent less than $2500 on.

But I am glad I am not hearing any of the "TiVo needs to stay in business" chant on this topic. I think deep down everyone realizes that TiVo is making a tidy profit on this box and is solid with its cable affiliations.

I would love to have an S3 for my cable HD. I have the SA8300HD running Sara software on Comcast and it is a digital VCR with a built in guide. I live with it but use my HR10 for the heavy lifting. (And if you have no HD-TiVo, I can understand the excitement to a point...I have one and it does the standard TiVo things so I can wait.)

But I will wait. Wait to see if the price point drops (actually TTG and MRV mean nothing to me, I don't care about either) but I know I will have to wait longer because some people with more disposable money than I are jumping on the bandwagon a bit early (IHMO). Just think how quickly the price would drop if you all said "Well, that is nice but it is a bit expensive."

Nah, that would make too much sense in a gadget-happy group.

Edit: I probably would have popped for the box if it was $500, BTW.

[Ereth]

I guess it's just that the HD version that only worked for DirecTV was $1000 and that was only two years ago. It doesn't seem like any difference to me. I paid $1000 for the one that would only work with DirecTV and now I'm going to pay $1000 for the one that only works with cable.

I don't feel any need to be stunned, since it's the same price as the last one I bought, and I HAVE built an HTPC to do this job and know exactly how much it costs and $800 is cheap.

Sure the HDTivo is cheaper now, 2 years later. The S3 will be cheaper in 2 years, too. That's how things work.

[smak]

Ahh. Someone who does understand, unlike smak.

I would have continued with DirecTV anyway because they're so much cheaper than Comcast. Now I'm giving DirecTV $4.99 more per month for the next two years. But I have 3 new R10 receivers and an additional outlet. And actually, the only commitment I have is to the basic service. I can drop the additional outlets (and their corresponding $4.99 each per month) without any penalty.

So based on all the above, if the R10 boxes cost DirecTV more than about $200 each, DirecTV couldn't afford to have given me the deal they did. I just don't see how an S3 can be so expensive in comparison. The S3 is an $1100 product if 3 years of service is included.

Oy. Guaranteeing you as a customer for x years is worth way more than whatever they lose on the R10.

How much do you think it costs directv to provide programming for you, just you out of their 15 million customers?

"I would have continued with directv anyway" How do they know that? Locking you in for 2 years is what enables them to give you a good deal on receivers.

This isn't rocket science. Why do cell companies give you free phones? Can you go to a cell store and get a free phone without signing up for 1 or 2 years service?

Would you wonder why a cell phone store charges $300 for a phone with no service, when you can get a little lesser phone for $100 with service.

Of course buying the Tivo is going to be a lot pricier than buying a cable DVR or a satellite DVR. It's because it's not bundled with programming like the other two are, so they have to earn money on the box itself.

-smak-

[Brooklynjazz]

I can understand being upset abou the S3 - the pricingis high - to be expected for a higher caliber of performance; but to my thinking, what's worse is that Tivo has abandoned lifetime subscriptions for this box. I own both an original Tivo and a Series 2 - both with lifetime subscriptions because nothing else made sense - the new 3yr plan for $299 (1 Year free?) is the real insult here.

[sonicboom]

I'm not a tivo apologist:

The S3 is undoubtably overpriced.
The Tivo/Comcast box will undoubtably be a better value.
Not offering lifetime undoubtably bites the big one.

That all being said...
I bought one.

Why? I haven't had a tivo for 4 years, and I miss it.
I've been waiting for an HD dual tuner cable Tivo all this time, and finally it's here.
I own it because I want it and can afford it (just like my big house and german car).

Simple as that.

I'm also looking forward to attaching an external eSATA storage array to it some day.

If they ever add MRV... I'll buy another one.

[Amnesia]

How about this analogy. Porshce came out with a new model of car that does some things better than the old one but doesn't do some of the things the old one does and UPPED the price.Then don't buy it. If you don't think that it's worth the money, don't buy it.

Why are you stunned? They've decided to offer a new product at a new price. Some people are willing to pay it and some aren't. That shouldn't be a surprise.

[bkdtv]

I can understand being upset abou the S3 - the pricingis high - to be expected for a higher caliber of performance; but to my thinking, what's worse is that Tivo has abandoned lifetime subscriptions for this box. I own both an original Tivo and a Series 2 - both with lifetime subscriptions because nothing else made sense - the new 3yr plan for $299 (1 Year free?) is the real insult here.If you have a lifetime subscription on a unit that works, you will never be paying more than $6.95/mo ($83.40/year) to use the Series3.

So long as you have a unit with lifetime around somewhere, there is really no reason to transfer lifetime to the Series3, except for future resale purposes.

[kb7oeb]

For what its worth to compare, an outright purchased dishnetwork HD dvr is just under $500. This is for no contract, and owned. The monthly fee varies, I'm just pointing out hardware costs.

[alex_kac]

After using the SA HD recorder for the last 2 years - ugh. My wife is demanding we switch to a Tivo (well she never demands, but her eyes light up when I mention Tivo and her face becomes deep Sheol when I mention the TimeWarner SA HD Recorder...). Now I'm happy with that as I desperately want out of the SA HD recorder as well.

My point is that look at the specs, the SA HD is OK and acceptable. In practical use...its horrible:

1) About once a month I have to unplug it because it starts recording all HD video with stuttering and pauses. Unplug and reboot and its fine. We've talked to TW and they say its normal due to fragmentation and other things - its HD related. So we replaced the unit twice. Same thing occurs, though less now.

2) It sometimes will not record a show. No idea why. And its always the most important one.

3) Its interface is horrible. Fast Forward/Rewind are very difficult to use.

However, we will wait on this one just a bit longer. One to get rid of any bugs. Two to get the price down a bit (maybe some Christmas sales?) and three, to see how well it fares. TTG must be in there for me to consider it as well.

And that's fine. No one is trying to make you buy it. Someday the S3 will come down in price - all products do. My first Series 1 was $400, and I got it after it had been out for over a year.

For me though, it's worth $800, and here's why.

One of my favorite shows is How I Met Your Mother. I have my Time Warner HD DVR set to record it, since it's in HD and I like to see Cobie Smulders in HD when possible. Last spring, for some unexplicable reason, the DVR just decided not to record the Season Finale. It has a To-Do List similar to TiVo, but it's more like a Might-Do List. Just because a program is listed there, doesn't mean it's going to be recorded. It might, it might not...all depends on how the DVR is feeling that day. Well, the Season Premiere of HIMYM is next week, so they re-aired the Season Finale last night. So last night, I check the Might-Do list. Yep, there it is. Start watching another show, not realizing what time it is. Check the DVR at about 7:15, and you guessed it - once again it did not record. This is one example, but basically my point is, the SA-8300 is an absolute piece of junk as far as software goes.

[Phantom Gremlin]

TiVo doesn't generate monthly revenue from their customers anything like a cable or satellite provider does. I don't think making a comparison between the two is comparing apples to apples.

That's not true. TiVo generates HUGE revenues from their stand-alone customers. $13/mo for what they provide is a ripoff. Compare that to the $1/mo that TiVo was happy to accept from DirecTV.

Remember, even if you pay Comcast $100/mo, the corresponding expenses for programming like ESPN and HBO, the cost of DVRs, and the plant maintenence are all huge. Now that TiVo has broadband access for their boxes, the infrastructure costs to service a box are miniscule.

[cwerdna]

I'm betting, hoping, praying that there's plenty of difference between my bug-ridden, lag-ridden, record-every-airing-of-the-same-episode-when-you-tell-it-to-record-it-only-one-time Motorola 6412 HD-DVR from Comcast and the Tivo Series 3. Everyone who has tried using the 6412 tears their hair out, screams and wants to throw it out the window!! The software could never have been beta tested by sane people before it was shoved out the door to consumers.
What software is running on your box? For the 6412, there's at least iGuide and MSTV (for the Seattle and Spokane, WA areas) and possibly one more?

[cwerdna]

After using the SA HD recorder for the last 2 years - ugh. My wife is demanding we switch to a Tivo (well she never demands, but her eyes light up when I mention Tivo and her face becomes deep Sheol when I mention the TimeWarner SA HD Recorder...). Now I'm happy with that as I desperately want out of the SA HD recorder as well.

My point is that look at the specs, the SA HD is OK and acceptable. In practical use...its horrible:
What software is on the box? I'm guessing it could be SARA, Passport Echo or something else...

[Dizzy49]

Well, I am new here, and I've been waiting for years for a HD Tivo and I must say that I am extremely disappointed.

Enough of this "early adopter" crap. HD is *NOT* new. HD recording is *NOT* new! I've been recording HD for 4 years on my HTPC!

I don't want to hear about manufacturing costs, and all that. Fact is, I built a quad tuner HD HTPC with 500GB for JUST under $500! I can do all kinds of things with this, and it syncs to titantv for scheduled recordings etc, FOR FREE! So, asking someone to pay $800 for tech that's been around a while, and pay $17/mo for 3yrs is a bit steep.

I was looking forward to getting one, and I had the wife's OK on up to $500 for the box, and grudgingly I'd pay the $17+/mo for service. Why, (well for one, the HTPC I built wasn't for me), but Tivo does have a great interface and great features...

Oh wait, the S3 has some of thos features disabled. Whoops! Maybe I won't be putting my shows on my media player to watch. (Atleast I can do it on my old HTPC I built 4 years ago)

What's with the THX? It's a gimmick, and EXPENSIVE gimmick! No HD station airs in THX, so why the hell do we need to record it? In my area I'm lucky if I can find the HD channels airing in 5.1 like they should be.

I don't like the idea of features listed that aren't available. Like the broadband downloads. There is *NO* information I can find on this, and it could possibly be one of the best features for me. I suppose if you can download THX movies, then the THX decoder makes sense. But, with all the DRM BS that is tacked on the iTunes and Amazon's downloadable movies, I doubt any downloadable movies will be worth it. Probably $9.99 for an OLD movie and $16.99 for a new release, and you can ONLY play it on the S3, and you can't back it up. So when the S3 is full, you either buy more hard drive space, or you lose the movies you paid for. *OR* you buy them at the store for the same price and have a physical DVD (oh, don't get me started...) But, if I can download old TV shows, or better yet, episodes from a show from earlier in the season for free, or cheap... THAT would interest me greatly. I started watching Desperate Housewives halfway through the season, I would loved to have downloaded the earlier episodes. Missed season 1 of Grey's Anatomy, would loved to have downloaded Season 1, even if I had to pay a *REASONABLE* fee (I'm sorry, but $1.99 an ep is *NOT* reasonable when I can buy the DVD, a PERMANENT COPY of the whole season for right around $30) Digital media should NEVER cost as much as physical media!

So, when Tivo figures out what they are doing with the promised features, and knocks the price down to something reasonable, I think they could have a real winner on their hands.

I sold DVDs for years, just because I COULD sell a set of DVDs for $99 didn't mean that I HAD to. In fact, I found it MUCH more profitable to sell them at $79. I made 1/4 of the profit but sold 10x as many. Simple math. All Tivo is doing is raping the people who will pay any cost to get the S3. Every company has those fanatics. Those people end up paying the majority of the costs associated with the product. The question will be, how fast will they lower their price? Will they drag it out trying to squeeze as much cream out of their product as possible, or will they lower it quickly to get the money rolling in fast.

Either way, I'll stick with my 4yr old HTPC until they drop the price.

[cwerdna]

Well, I am new here, and I've been waiting for years for a HD Tivo and I must say that I am extremely disappointed.

Enough of this "early adopter" crap. HD is *NOT* new. HD recording is *NOT* new! I've been recording HD for 4 years on my HTPC!

I don't want to hear about manufacturing costs, and all that. Fact is, I built a quad tuner HD HTPC with 500GB for JUST under $500! I can do all kinds of things with this, and it syncs to titantv for scheduled recordings etc, FOR FREE! So, asking someone to pay $800 for tech that's been around a while, and pay $17/mo for 3yrs is a bit steep.

What's the uptime of your box? (including intentional power cycles and reboots) http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/PsInfo.html

Would "average joe" (non-tech savvy person) be able operate and maintain your HTPC? I'm not even including the research and assembly. How many hours a day does your box actually record shows and how many hours a day do you watch? How much did it cost you 4 years ago and how much space did it have at the time?

Your box couldn't be recording any encrypted QAM content off cable since there's no way you could build PC w/a CableCARD slot. You're limited to OTA ATSC and clear QAM.

The high def DirecTivo (HR10-250) shipped around April 04, btw.

I do agree that the price is REALLY high. For $800, they gotta throw in 2-3 years of free service or drop the price. Perhaps they're just trying to recoup their investment via early adopters.

[Dizzy49]

Oh yeah, and I think making Lifetime Subscription members pay an additional $199 is a freaking crime! There is *NO* cost associated with changing boxes, the service is the same, so why the cost? It's simple, Tivo realized they screwed up with the Lifetime plan, and they are trying to recoup costs by screwing those people.

Have I mentioned that I absolutely HATE corporate America?!

[Dizzy49]

What's the uptime of your box? (including intentional power cycles and reboots)

Would "average joe" (non-tech savvy person) be able operate and maintain your HTPC? I'm not even including the research and assembly. How many hours a day does your box actually record shows and how many hours a day do you watch? How much did it cost you 4 years ago and how much space did it have at the time?

Your box couldn't be recording any encrypted QAM content off cable since there's no way you could build PC w/a CableCARD slot. You're limited to OTA ATSC and clear QAM.

The high def DirecTivo (HR10-250) shipped around April 04, btw.

I do agree that the price is REALLY high. For $800, they gotta throw in 2-3 years of free service or drop the price. Perhaps they're just trying to recoup their investment via early adopters.

Only time the box has been down is during power outtages, and when I changed the case,changed out fans, and added a hard drive. This is by far the most stable Windows computer I have *EVER* built. I've NEVER had a BSOD, and no hardware has failed (yet, knock on wood).
When I built it it cost me about $1100, THAT was early adopter price since HD on a PC and HD recording was bleeding edge tech at the time.
It started with an 80gb drive, now it has the same 80gb drive (system drive) and a 250GB drive.

I have an IR blaster set up to change channels on my cable box so I can record contact from it, my other input is for my OTA. Is the quality of my recording of the digital channels the same as the S3. I doubt it, but I've also had this capability for 4 years at no cost.

I will agree that if they threw in 3 years of service, I'd probably get it, that would fall right in my budget.

Quick HTPC Specs
HP AMD 64 3400+ (Bought on sale from CompUSA) for $199
1gb Ram
300gb drive
200gb drive (picked up for $40 on sale)
2x MyHD 120 - Found them on eBay, paid just over $200 shipped for both
Windows Media Center

My 4yr old HTPC is running Windows 2000 on a P4 1.8ghz, runs, but it's time to upgrade...

[smak]

So what? If I'm going to buy some programming anyway, what does this matter? It doesn't offset the cost of the S3 in any way unless going strictly OTA was an option, and for me at least it's not.

But because you can get a good price from cable or satellite on their box because you buy programming may help you, but it doesn't help Tivo.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go satellite or cable DVR because they give you a good price, i'm saying the reasons why satellite or cable are cheaper is because of the programming, and is why Tivo can't match their price.

People keep saying that the series 3 isn't worth it, since you can get the other two types of boxes for so much cheaper.

The guaranteed purchase of programming is why they can be so cheap, but Tivo can't.

-smak-

[tunnelengineer]

Only time the box has been down is during power outtages, and when I changed the case,changed out fans, and added a hard drive. This is by far the most stable Windows computer I have *EVER* built. I've NEVER had a BSOD, and no hardware has failed (yet, knock on wood).
When I built it it cost me about $1100, THAT was early adopter price since HD on a PC and HD recording was bleeding edge tech at the time.
It started with an 80gb drive, now it has the same 80gb drive (system drive) and a 250GB drive.

I have an IR blaster set up to change channels on my cable box so I can record contact from it, my other input is for my OTA. Is the quality of my recording of the digital channels the same as the S3. I doubt it, but I've also had this capability for 4 years at no cost.

I will agree that if they threw in 3 years of service, I'd probably get it, that would fall right in my budget.

Quick HTPC Specs
HP AMD 64 3400+ (Bought on sale from CompUSA) for $199
1gb Ram
300gb drive
200gb drive (picked up for $40 on sale)
2x MyHD 120 - Found them on eBay, paid just over $200 shipped for both
Windows Media Center

My 4yr old HTPC is running Windows 2000 on a P4 1.8ghz, runs, but it's time to upgrade...

You are comparing apples to oranges. I will leave it at that.

[Ereth]

Fact is, I built a quad tuner HD HTPC with 500GB for JUST under $500!

That's interesting given that HD tuners run ~$100 each. That means your quad tuner HTPC was $400 for the tuners and less than $100 for everything else? Case, power supply, cpu, fan, hard drive, video card, etc?

Or did you get a 2-tuner analog card and 2 HD tuners? That would be cheaper. If you have a source for quality HDTV tuner cards for significantly less than $100 I'd be very interested to learn it, as I, too, have an HTPC. Mine cost a LOT more than $500, though. Heck, my Silverstone case was $300 all by itself. But nobody sees a "Computer" sitting in my entertainment center, it looks just like a stereo component (which has value to me).

The S3 ALSO doesn't look like a computer, but looks like it belongs in an Entertainment Center. That has value, and some people seem (to me) to be overlooking that value when they compare it to building the cheapest PC they can get.

[Edit: I see you went with the MyHD 120, which IS dual tuner, and you bought them used. Ok, that's a way to get it cheaper but hardly compares to buying a "new" TiVo, does it? MSRP on those cards is $350. Each. The 130 which replaced it is $180. So, again, 4 tuners would have run you about $400]

[robbins]

But because you can get a good price from cable or satellite on their box because you buy programming may help you, but it doesn't help Tivo.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go satellite or cable DVR because they give you a good price, i'm saying the reasons why satellite or cable are cheaper is because of the programming, and is why Tivo can't match their price.

People keep saying that the series 3 isn't worth it, since you can get the other two types of boxes for so much cheaper.

The guaranteed purchase of programming is why they can be so cheap, but Tivo can't.

-smak-

Your thinking is all wrong Smak. Tivo gets money guaranteed every month with practically no cost. There are so many people who pay $13 per month for something that might cost Tivo 50 cents. HUGE PROFIT MARGIN FOR TIVO, and $800 for the S3 is crazy. I can't believe anyone would pay that, it's so funny!

[bkdtv]

Your thinking is all wrong Smak. Tivo gets money guaranteed every month with practically no cost. There are so many people who pay $13 per month for something that might cost Tivo 50 cents. HUGE PROFIT MARGIN FOR TIVO, and $800 for the S3 is crazy. I can't believe anyone would pay that, it's so funny!
Ehh? Not according to Tivo's financial statements.

According to their financial statements, the cost to provide the service exceeds the cost of the hardware.

Don't believe this? Just look at Tivo's 10Q filing (http://secfilings.nasdaq.com/filingFrameset.asp?FileName=0001193125%2D06%2D127618%2Etxt&FilePath=%5C2006%5C06%5C09%5C&CoName=TIVO+INC&FormType=10%2DQ&RcvdDate=6%2F9%2F2006&pdf=) :


(in thousands)
For Q1: 2006 2005
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware revenues 9,453 10,526
Cost of hardware revenues -15,146 -15,642
Cost of service and technology revenues -17,801 -8,866Looking at the above information, I think it is pretty obvious that the service is a very real cost. The hardware is sold at far less than cost, and providing the service itself costs 50% more than the hardware.

These figures do not even include the millions in marketing rebates and promotions on hardware sales and product placement ($8 million and $3 million, respectively). Nor does it include the R&D, marketing, or other company operating expenses. Tivo's combination of product pricing and service fee obviously hasn't been sufficient to turn a profit, seeing as they've lost a half a billion dollars since they started.

[cwerdna]

Only time the box has been down is during power outtages, and when I changed the case,changed out fans, and added a hard drive. This is by far the most stable Windows computer I have *EVER* built. I've NEVER had a BSOD, and no hardware has failed (yet, knock on wood)....

My 4yr old HTPC is running Windows 2000 on a P4 1.8ghz, runs, but it's time to upgrade...
But you didn't answer my question on the uptime. I'd suspect that it could be no more than ~30 days of continuous uptime due to (monthly) Patch Tuesday, unless you choose not to install critical security updates.

[Stormspace]

But you didn't answer my question on the uptime. I'd suspect that it could be no more than ~30 days of continuous uptime due to (monthly) Patch Tuesday, unless you choose not to install critical security updates.

TiVo isn't any different. It reboots periodically as well. In fact I have to manually reboot mine once or twice a month to reconnect to my tivoserver for music and TTG/TTCB.