Series 3 or Vista with CableCard ?

[TechDreamer]

Series 3 Tivo full retail = $800
Lifetime transfer fee = $200
Original Lifetime fee = $300
Total = $1300

I'm starting to think a CableCard Vista system looks like a good option compared to a Series 3. CableCard Vista systems should be shipping within the first quarter of 2007 and I bet you can get one for less than $1300. I use Tivo and and an MCE system and I like them both. The argument against MCE systems has always focused on cost and reliability. Series 3 Tivo's will probably stay expensive longer than a Vista system and Tivo's software gets buggier with every new release. I know Vista will have problems but I just think in the long run it will work out better. Vista will have a lot more features than Tivo such as tying in with the XBOX360 and Vista will be a full real computer. I would also get to keep my fully hacked and upgraded lifetime Series 1. Tivo really needs to get the price down on the Series 3 and they really need to get the features back in the box.

[BriGuy20]

Not sure if you'll be able to put 2 cable card slots in a Vista MCE system.

No guarantee that Vista will ship Q1 2006.

What if you want to play a game while your favorite show is on?

Are you okay with having a bluescreen of death halfway through one of your shows?

[Agent86]

Any Vista PC with a CableCard would need to be CableLabs certified just like the Series 3.

I'd bet that if Microsoft can get CableLabs to approve the display of recorded shows on a Xbox 360, TiVo can get MRV approved for the Series 3.

[musicforme]

I debated the same thing as well.

As someone who has used a Tivo for the past three years, and a MCE with a Xbox 360 it didn't take long for me to decide on Tivo.

While the MCE got the job done, the Tivo was so much easier to use and intuitive. There is also the WAF and she didn't have any interest in learning how to use the Xbox to connect to the MCE on our lan.

As far as cost, I don't think it is far to include the original lifetime cost in the decision between the two options. The lifetime is a sunk cost and cannot be recovered (not including selling the Tivo to fund any purchases).

[TechDreamer]

Well the Vista version of MCE looks to be a lot better than the XP version. I am looking forward to comparing the features of Vista to the Series 3.

[dt_dc]

I'd bet that if Microsoft can get CableLabs to approve the display of recorded shows on a Xbox 360, TiVo can get MRV approved for the Series 3.Microsoft has been working on doing just that for a long long time ...http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2005/05_pr_microsoft_111605.html

Microsoft and CableLabs® Announce Agreement to Enable High Definition Digital Cable Programming on Windows-based PCs

Future Versions of Media Center PCs to Receive Digital Cable Programming without the need for a Cable Set-Top Box

Redmond, Washington, and Louisville, Colorado, November 16, 2005—Microsoft Corp. and Cable Television Laboratories Inc. (CableLabs®) today announced they have reached an agreement that will allow Microsoft and PC manufacturers to bring to market digital-cable-ready Windows® Media Center-based PCs in the holiday 2006 time frame.

These Media Center PCs, capable of supporting a CableCARD™ module, will allow consumers to enjoy one-way cable programming, including premium high-definition cable content, on their personal computer and throughout the home on compliant network-connected devices, such as Xbox 360™, while protecting cable operators' investments in high-value content in a digital environment. Microsoft is working closely with CableLabs to document final approval of Windows Media® Digital Rights Management (DRM) as a content protection technology for OpenCable™ products that receive one-way cable content under the terms of this agreement.
(...)
The agreement is the culmination of more than two years of extensive evaluation and technical reviews performed by the two entities under the CableLabs OpenCable process to develop specifications and test suites for the new solution.

[Amnesia]

Original Lifetime fee = $300
Total = $1300The original lifetime fee is a sunk cost---you can't recover that so you shouldn't use it in comparing the costs of different options.

(That is, even if you decide not to get a S3 and use Vista, you're still out the $300)

[hiddentrout]

The original lifetime fee is a sunk cost---you can't recover that so you shouldn't use it in comparing the costs of different options.

(That is, even if you decide not to get a S3 and use Vista, you're still out the $300)
...beat me to it. :p

[johnh123]

I wonder how long it will be post vista-release (if ever) before one will be able to just buy a cable card 'card' instead of having to buy a premade vista computer that has the slots. That will play into my decision.

[TK421]

I wonder how long it will be post vista-release (if ever) before one will be able to just buy a cable card 'card' instead of having to buy a premade vista computer that has the slots. That will play into my decision.


My understanding is you won't be able to do this. From reading the threads here, you can only buy pre-approved full systems with CableLabs approval.

I would think someone (MS maybe?) would have to petition CableLabs to get that change approved.

[dswallow]

The original lifetime fee is a sunk cost---you can't recover that so you shouldn't use it in comparing the costs of different options.

(That is, even if you decide not to get a S3 and use Vista, you're still out the $300)
It most certainly is a recoverable cost; one can resell a unit with lifetime service and usually reap 100% (or more) of the original cost.

[Amnesia]

You can't sell the lifetime without selling the box as well.

The OP said that he wanted to keep his original box...

[dswallow]

You can't sell the lifetime without selling the box as well.

The OP said that he wanted to keep his original box...
You can sell the box w/lifetime and buy an identical model box without lifetime. :)

[TK421]

It most certainly is a recoverable cost; one can resell a unit with lifetime service and usually reap 100% (or more) of the original cost.


But you can't do both that and transfer the lifetime to the S3.

[dswallow]

But you can't do both that and transfer the lifetime to the S3.
No, but who cares? The OP is comparing the cost of the S3 to the cost of alternatives and is including the original lifetime cost of his current TiVo in the equation. That cost is recoverable, so it is OK to include it for comparison purposes.

[Amnesia]

No it's not.

From the OP:
I would also get to keep my fully hacked and upgraded lifetime Series 1. He's comparing buying a S3 with getting a new Vista computer and keeping his lifetime Series 1. The cost is not recoverable. The only way to "recover" the cost is to sell the unit, and that's not what the OP wants to do.

For purposes of his comparison, the $300 is a sunk cost and should not be taken into account...

[dswallow]

No it's not.

From the OP:
He's comparing buying a S3 with getting a new Vista computer and keeping his lifetime Series 1. The cost is not recoverable. The only way to "recover" the cost is to sell the unit, and that's not what the OP wants to do.

For purposes of his comparison, the $300 is a sunk cost and should not be taken into account...
He's describing it as something he would be able to do; there'd be a cost to it. But the cost of lifetime on his original unit is recoverable; comparing the S3 acquisition cost to the Vista cost is perfectly valid to do, and can include the lifetime cost since the existing series 1 unit could be sold and that cost recovered.

He may choose in the end to keep it, but that's different than comparing the cost of one versus the other.

If he buys a series 3 and transfers lifetime, he loses the lifetime on the series 1. He couldn't keep his series 1 lifetime in that situation either.

[HDTiVo]

Microsoft has been working on doing just that for a long long time ...
Oh well, at least Verizon can offer MRV. ;)

Maybe next year, TiVo. :eek:

[theone]

I would be interested in seeing how vista mce works with regards to hd recording. Since I am in the market for a new home pc and also have an xbox360 it would be worth a look.

Another thing you need to add to the equation is that with the vista pc you also get a full pc and all its benefits. Like most gadgets the device that focuses on one thing (tivo) will probably be better at its main function where the mce will have to do many things so you will have to probably give up some smoothness in functionality, etc.

Dont underestimate the big MS machine in the long term though. They could squash tivo like a grape.

[TK421]

He's describing it as something he would be able to do; there'd be a cost to it. But the cost of lifetime on his original unit is recoverable; comparing the S3 acquisition cost to the Vista cost is perfectly valid to do, and can include the lifetime cost since the existing series 1 unit could be sold and that cost recovered.

He may choose in the end to keep it, but that's different than comparing the cost of one versus the other.

If he buys a series 3 and transfers lifetime, he loses the lifetime on the series 1. He couldn't keep his series 1 lifetime in that situation either.

If he sells it, it's not truly the cost of the lifetime your "recouping", it's the entire box. You'd have to include the cost of the hardware, too, including the upgrade costs, and then estimate what you could sell it for. There isn't a way to sell the lifetime service.

[Amnesia]

He's describing it as something he would be able to do; there'd be a cost to it. He's comparing the cost of getting a S3 and the cost of getting a Vista system and keeping his S1.

Cost for getting a S3: $1000
Cost for getting a Vista system and keeping his S1: $XXXX

If he were talking about getting rid of his S1, then the comparison would be something like this:

Cost for getting a S3: $800 + $13/mth
Cost for getting a Vista system: $XXXX
(for either choice he could sell his S1 box)

Notice how the $300 cost doesn't appear at all?

[eisenb11]

Honestly, the cost of a Vista MCE PC and a S3 w Lifetime transfer are comperable.

This is a problem I tossed around a lot too. My conclusion was to go with the S3. I'll cover the reasons...

1. I'm a videophile with a dedicated external scaler. MCE will scale internally and will most likely *not* allow native output. The S3 does allow native output.

2. Computers crash... a lot sometimes. The S3 will more likely be more stable.

3. Power consumption. The S3 will consume less power than a full fledged computer.

4. Simplicity. I don't want to deal with all the computer-stuff that comes with having a computer. I have 14 computers around the house... I don't want to deal with computer hassels when I want to watch TV.

5. Simplicity II. There still is no interface like the Tivo interface. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the scroll action in the new MCE version.

6. Noise. This is TBD, but I have a feeling the S3 will be quieter.

When all is said and done, my main attraction to the S3 is that it's not a computer. I want a piece of A/V gear to sit in with all the rest of my A/V equipment. I don't care about browsing the web on my DVR or listenning to music on it - I don't want a computer - I want a DVR, and nothing more, to watch TV on.

So for me, it's the S3!

But it really depends on what you want to do. If you want to browse the web, play games on your TV, hook up to your X360 then maybe the Vista MCE is the best way to go for you. It all comes down to what you're planning on doing...

[vstone]

Anybody have any feel for when motherboards with cablecard support will appear? Those solutions would likely run coller and be more energy efficient than PCI cards whenever they appear.

Edit: As stated in another thread, the PC's will have to have a trusted computing module installed, probably on the motherboard. The whole PC would be certified by cablelabs.

No black box Vista PC's to record off of cable.

[dswallow]

Notice how the $300 cost doesn't appear at all?

That's because you left it out.

Cost for getting an S3: $800 + $199
Cost for getting Vista and dropping TiVo: $XXXX - $300

BUT, if he got Vista, he could keep his S1 (with lifetime)... the option exists; he's not comparing the costs with keeping it, he's just saying it's an option to consider, and that would affect how one might compare prices if he did. Of course he's risking that his unit doesn't break before he is able to resell it, and that it still has substantially all the value of lifetime service, or more, or at least as much value as it does today.

And there's probably an argument for the resale value of an S3 that has lifetime (versus an old/long-obsolete S1), though it isn't necessarily as valuable with a cost basis of $500 instead of $300. So it may be prudent (or at least mostly revenue neutral) to upgrade to an S3 regardless of whether or not he may go with Vista in the future.

[Amnesia]

Cost for getting an S3: $800 + $199
Cost for getting Vista and dropping TiVo: $XXXX - $300In that case, you should list the cost of the S3 as $800 - $300, because he could get rid of the box with lifetime untransferred. So the analysis would be:

Cost for getting an S3: $800 - $300 = $500
Cost for getting Vista and dropping TiVo: $XXXX - $300

If you're going to subtract $300 from each option, then you might as well not list it.