Is the menu in HD?

[vstone]

The HR10-250's menu is in SD. Did they fix that for the s3?

[Dan203]

The S3 menu is 720p

Dan

[TiVoPony]

And the video backgrounds (loopsets) are 16:9 (no more squashed logo/UI).

And the UI has been freshened up - everything is glossy and pretty now. Icons, menu bars, grid, etc.

Pony

[tunnelengineer]

uh, the cnet review shows some pretty crappy looking oval buttons (that should be round) and text that looks SD. Pony, can you clarify this?

[Havanese_boy]

PC Mag review says Menus are NOT HD...and they where disappointed.

Read the review here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2014569,00.asp?kc=PCRSS02129TX1K0000530

[davezatz]

PC Mag review says Menus are NOT HD...and they where disappointed.

I was surprised to read that and it does not jive with my experience. Menus and fonts look fine, and the new program info bar and timeline looks SHARP - very nice with shading and whatnot.

[Havanese_boy]

@davezatz

If that is true, shame on PC Mag as they really point that out as a "con" for the series 3. This review is getting a lot of press on the net so if it's not accurate it could hurt TiVo as a lot of ppl take PC Mag (along with CNet) as gospel.

[rainwater]

I was surprised to read that and it does not jive with my experience. Menus and fonts look fine, and the new program info bar and timeline looks SHARP - very nice with shading and whatnot.

The video actually shows the bad text and stretched icons. So, unless they have a different software version or you aren't using on a widescreen hdtv display, I can't imagine the difference.

[davezatz]

My display is 16:9 connected via HDMI. I'd be interested in how he connected it to his set and what video settings he specified. It's entirely possible he told the TiVo he was running 4:3 and let his TV stretch it to 16:9. Looks like megazone is also seeing decent results.
http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/

[megazone]

Yeah, I was just thinking that. If they set the TiVo to 4:3 output and used a 16:9 display - that'd stretch everything.

[rainwater]

Yeah, I was just thinking that. If they set the TiVo to 4:3 output and used a 16:9 display - that'd stretch everything.

The weird thing was the text didn't look stretched though. It almost looked like it was squeezed together (the exact opposite of the icons).

[AJRitz]

Upon learning that the TiVo menus/graphics are 720p, it didn't take me long to conclude that the PCMag idiots probably had their output/display selections mismatched. :rolleyes:

[rainwater]

Upon learning that the TiVo menus/graphics are 720p, it didn't take me long to conclude that the PCMag idiots probably had their output/display selections mismatched. :rolleyes:

Considering the guy doing the demo is a HDTV expert (Robert Heron), I would be hesitant to call him an idiot. Maybe he didn't setup the demo which is likely. But, before you call people idiots, you might want to take a step back. If this is a common user mistake, you will be seeing these complaints on this forum in a few days. However, I have read/seen many reviews by Heron, and he is very knowledgable about all forms of HDTV technology.

[lordrichter]

The menus are 720p, but my question is whether they can be something else or are they fixed at 720p. My HDTV is older and does not display 720p on any inputs.

[davezatz]

The menus are 720p, but my question is whether they can be something else or are they fixed at 720p. My HDTV is older and does not display 720p on any inputs.

The S3 has a variety of output modes including 1080i hybrid and 1080i fixed which will take care of you. My CRT doesn't accept 720p either, and the 1080i solution looks great.

[megazone]

The menus are 720p, but my question is whether they can be something else or are they fixed at 720p. My HDTV is older and does not display 720p on any inputs.That's what they default to when using 'Native' output. If you set it to something other than Native, then they'll be scaled to that resolution.

[jfh3]

And the video backgrounds (loopsets) are 16:9 (no more squashed logo/UI).

And the UI has been freshened up - everything is glossy and pretty now. Icons, menu bars, grid, etc.

Pony


You may want to give PC Magazine a call. They were pretty harsh about icons and fonts and claimed they were just "lifted" from the Series 2 software.

[cotton168]

The photos that megazone provided were what made me REALLY want to get an S3. They actually looked great. I cannot believe they said that that the icons and fonts were "lifted" from the S2 software because they sure didn't look like it to me! :)

[rainwater]

I cannot believe they said that that the icons and fonts were "lifted" from the S2 software because they sure didn't look like it to me! :)

They looked like it on the PC Magazine setup. The issue is they seemed to be setup differently for some reason.

[Darthnice]

Even if the menus are in HD, there are still some spots that are missing a little of their sheen.

Take a look at a tall and thin TiVo Guy here:
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8080/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/First-Setup-7.jpg

Compare that to normal TiVo Guy here:
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8080/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Second-Setup-3.jpg

But then notice in that second shot, the check-mark is an oval, not a circle.

Regardless, can't wait for mine to show up :)

[Mikkel_Knight]

The menus are 720p, but my question is whether they can be something else or are they fixed at 720p. My HDTV is older and does not display 720p on any inputs.
Hey - you've got a PM...

[XBoogie]

I watched the video and PCMag had their display set at 1080i fixed. That would explain why the menus and icons appeared stretched as they are natively output at 720p. The Tivo S3 is downconverting the 720p signal to 1080i.

[reh523]

Considering the guy doing the demo is a HDTV expert (Robert Heron), I would be hesitant to call him an idiot. Maybe he didn't setup the demo which is likely. But, before you call people idiots, you might want to take a step back. If this is a common user mistake, you will be seeing these complaints on this forum in a few days. However, I have read/seen many reviews by Heron, and he is very knowledgable about all forms of HDTV technology.

I was about to say the same thing. I have read his stuff before. About the only frustrating thing about this forum is the one sided pro Tivo is right everyone (thing) is wrong.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I was about to say the same thing. I have read his stuff before. About the only frustrating thing about this forum is the one sided pro Tivo is right everyone (thing) is wrong.
Yeah, all anybody ever does around here is sing the praises of TiVo. Why just this week, we've all been talking about how great TiVo has handled the S3 roll-out! Just thread after thread about how happy we all are with TiVo...

[quango]

My experience is that the menu is 720p (which is nice, since it matches my HDTV's native resolution), and the aspect ratio of the graphics is right - but the text is stretched wide; same deal with the closed captioning.

[Mikkel_Knight]

Yeah, all anybody ever does around here is sing the praises of TiVo. Why just this week, we've all been talking about how great TiVo has handled the S3 roll-out! Just thread after thread about how happy we all are with TiVo...
You still have a PM... a reply would be great thanks...

[Rob Helmerichs]

You still have a PM... a reply would be great thanks...
Huh?

[MickeS]

Even if the menus are in HD, there are still some spots that are missing a little of their sheen.

Take a look at a tall and thin TiVo Guy here:
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8080/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/First-Setup-7.jpg

Compare that to normal TiVo Guy here:
http://www.tivolovers.com.nyud.net:8080/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Second-Setup-3.jpg

But then notice in that second shot, the check-mark is an oval, not a circle.

Regardless, can't wait for mine to show up :)

The reason those two pictures are different is that they are taken on two different TVs - the first one is on a 4:3 TV, the second one on a 16:9 :)

But it seems clear that the only thing that's done is give the TiVo guy a 16:9 make-over - the buttons are all ovals. :down:

[Kenji]

I was surprised to read that and it does not jive with my experience. Menus and fonts look fine, and the new program info bar and timeline looks SHARP - very nice with shading and whatnot.
I've only had my S3 hooked up for a day or so, but my experience matches that of the PC Magazine reviewer.

I have a Mitsubishi 1080p HDTV. Originally, my S3 was configured to use 480p, and at that resolution, the TiVo menus looked just like their S2 counterparts (i.e., they had the correct aspect ratio). However, since 480p is for wimps (grin), I configured the S3 to use 720p resolution, and when I did so, the TiVo menus stretched horizontally, just like the PC Magazine review said, and there was no adjustment I could perform on the TV to fix this. I tried using the S3's "native" resolution, but the TiVo menus remained stretched. So, I would have to conclude that the TiVo menus are indeed set up for 480p (i.e., non-HD) resolution.

I would love to be able to see the TiVo menus in their correct aspect ratio but still have the S3 feed my TV an HD (i.e., 720p or 1080i) resolution. I'll try playing around with the video settings some more.

[razi]

Despite what peoplke have been saying in this (and other) threads, the S3 menus are not HD.

In fact, the menus look *much* better viewed at 480p with my TV doing the scaling to 720p (squeezed to 4x3), than they do if I set the S3 output to 720p.

that being said, some of the individual items within the GUI, such as the TiVo icon etc are corrected for 16x9 if you set your output to 16x9. Nevertheless, it's a strange mix of high res/low res and 4x3/16x9 graphics that make up the S3 GUI.

The only way that *all* screen objects render correctly is if you set your output to 480i/480p and view in 4x3...

[gtrlum]

I just got my S3 today and ran into the same problems. My projector is 16x9 @720p and this is what i have the tivo setup for using the component out. The tivo guys icon is correct but the circles are all ovals and the text is stretched. Its like the menu is in 4:3 with a squished tivo icon and they just stretch the 4:3 into 16:9 to fill the frame. If i hook up a 4:3 tv then the menus look right but the tivo icon is in fact squished.

I am VERY disappointed about this and it better be fixed VERY soon!

[etsolow]

I am VERY disappointed about this and it better be fixed VERY soon!
That's strong language! I agree though, it is disappointing.

[boblip11]

My menus are in 720p and look great.

I run my Tivo in "native" mode with composite output and let my Sharp Aquos do all the work. When I was playing with using HDMI and the other video formats when I first got the S3 some of the choices would force the menus to 420

[vman41]

If you tell the TiVo that you have a 'smart' screen (i.e. displays 480i/p in 4:3 and 720p/1080i in 16:9) and choose hybrid 720p for your output format, the menus output in 480p. Why would it do that if the menus were naturally 720p? I conclude that the menus are SD, like Cnet says. Things that have to overlay the HD video, like channel banners, may be at HD resolution.

Most annoying of all, the HMO pictures are rendered at 480 lines and look like compared to viewing photos on the Xbox 360.

[Amnesia]

Why would it do that if the menus were naturally 720p? I conclude that the menus are SD, like Cnet says.Conversely, if you tell the TiVo to use "Native" resolution, then the menus come out in 720p. I conclude that the menus are HD, and CNet was wrong.

[rodalpho]

The picture is output in 16:9, but the user interface is definitely scaled from 4:3. The circles are ovals, you can't deny it. This doesn't really bother me, but it's undeniably true.

[chrispitude]

I placed an order for a Series 3 over the weekend. I just looked at that review site and saw the nasty oval icons:

http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Second-Setup-26.jpg
http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Now-Playing-List-2.jpg

Bleh. It would be nice if the guide:

http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Guide-2.jpg

used a narrower font to fit more program information in the guide. Isn't that part of the point of having a widescreen display? :)

- Chris

[gtrlum]

I tried every out put mode from 480 to 1020 with forced resolution or native and 16:9 display set on component or DVI. They all output the menus stretched from an original 4:3 480p image. I'd rather have pillar bars and the menu display the proper aspect ratio then it being stretched to fill the screen. This item is sold for the high def and its ridiculous the icons and menuing isn't formatted correctly. The fact they put in a skinny tivo guy icon that would display properly when stretched to the new aspect ratio means they knew about the problem all along.

[rodalpho]

Yes, of course they know about it, but it's a really minor issue compared to the extremely slow UI, the incomplete recordings, the audio dropouts, and so on. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much. The screen is perfectly readable and unless you know what you're looking for it isn't even noticeable.

[Maeglin]

Yes, of course they know about it, but it's a really minor issue compared to the extremely slow UI, the incomplete recordings, the audio dropouts, and so on. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much. The screen is perfectly readable and unless you know what you're looking for it isn't even noticeable.
Agreed. TiVo's developers have bigger fish to fry than graphical nitpicks.

Besides, scaled or not, the menus and the rest of the UI are clearly sharper with an HD video signal. Last night I switched from S-video to component after about 2 months of using the S3, and the difference is obvious.

[Bierboy]

Yes, of course they know about it, but it's a really minor issue compared to the extremely slow UI, the incomplete recordings, the audio dropouts, and so on. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much. The screen is perfectly readable and unless you know what you're looking for it isn't even noticeable.Amen....preach it!

[Jiffylush]

It is not HD, the intro videos that come with it are in HD.

The portion of the intro video that shows the interface shows it in HD, and it is better quality than the actual gui on your tv.

This does need to be fixed, while it is not the most important problem, it does seem like a glaring oversight.

ie. the menus on my 800 dollar HD TiVo aren't in HD

[Rob Helmerichs]

ie. the menus on my 800 dollar HD TiVo aren't in HD
Of course, an argument could be made that you didn't pay $800 to watch menus...

(At least, I HOPE an argument can be made!)

[Jiffylush]

Of course, an argument could be made that you didn't pay $800 to watch menus...

(At least, I HOPE an argument can be made!)

The difference in the 800 dollar tivo (more like 1100 dollar tivo) and the 6-12 dollar a month crap dvr from cable company is the tivo interface.

[Rob Helmerichs]

The difference in the 800 dollar tivo (more like 1100 dollar tivo) and the 6-12 dollar a month crap dvr from cable company is the tivo interface.
No, it's the TiVo functionality. I don't think anybody's going to pay $800 for HD menus!

[ashu]

Thanks Rob ... it's the SOFTWARE. Even if it looked like CRUD (which it doesn't), its functionality for HD programming is what I paid good money for. And it works well enough to make me VERY happy. Menu resolution ... ultra-minor issue, even an idle, inane nitpick, IMO!

[MickeS]

It would be nice if the guide:

http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/Medium/Guide-2.jpg

used a narrower font to fit more program information in the guide. Isn't that part of the point of having a widescreen display? :)


I still don't have an S3, but YES, I thinkit's extremely sloppy of TiVo to still use the same font sizes and menus as the S2. There could be so much more information displayed on a 16:9 screen, AND they should have at least two different font size options. As long as they've worked on this and as much as it costs, it's ridiculous that they for the most part are just using a stretched 4:3 UI.

[ashu]

I still don't have an S3, but YES, I thinkit's extremely sloppy of TiVo to still use the same font sizes and menus as the S2. There could be so much more information displayed on a 16:9 screen, AND they should have at least two different font size options. As long as they've worked on this and as much as it costs, it's ridiculous that they for the most part are just using a stretched 4:3 UI.

You assume (wrongly) that ALL 16:9 TVs ALSO have MUCH greater surface area than all 4:3 units. Not necessarily the case, and not a safe assumption for them to make (and reduce font size substantially). I like my screen clean and clutter-free & prefer my information overload to come from the inane programming on TV and not the PVR (which as TiVo has figured out, should be reliable and unobtrusive)!

[rodalpho]

He asked for a choice between two font sizes for those of us with larger HDTVs. This is a perfectly reasonable request and hurts nobody.

[Adam1115]

Yes, of course they know about it, but it's a really minor issue compared to the extremely slow UI, the incomplete recordings, the audio dropouts, and so on. I don't know why it bothers you guys so much. The screen is perfectly readable and unless you know what you're looking for it isn't even noticeable.

Uhm, my Series 3 is blazing fast. Faster than any of my DirecTiVo's, faster than my Series2.. what are you talking about?

Haven't experienced any incomplete records, audio dropouts, or so ons.. am I just lucy??? :confused:

[Jiffylush]

No, it's the TiVo functionality. I don't think anybody's going to pay $800 for HD menus!

Isn't most of the functionality accessed via the menus?

I agree that this isn't the most important thing that they should be working on, but it does seem like an oversight to have your brand new HD TiVo not display it's own interface in HD.

Personally the most important new feature is KidZone, followed by the ability to stream video from a PC.

I haven't had issues with rebooting, partial recordings, audio or anything else.

I do really love my S3, but I found the interface to be a bit of a let down.

[ashu]

am I just lucy??? :confused:

Maybe. Do a lot of people tell you they love you? :)

Yeah, on the whole the S3 is fast and error-free. Occasioanl dropouts I've noticed have been more attributable to 2 simultaneous recordings and one playback (all HD) or OTA glitches. But these problems DO exist to some extent.

[windracer]

The portion of the intro video that shows the interface shows it in HD, and it is better quality than the actual gui on your tv.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about (the 6 pre-delivered videos on the S3), those menus looked mocked-up to me.

[jtown]

Time to bump this thread back up, IMHO.

The menus are NOT HD. Period.

My display is a 1920x1080p LCD panel and those menus aren't 1080i/p or even 720p. Nor is any of the content generated by the Tivo (web stuff/network stuff).

Video output: Native = 720x480i
Video output: 720p hybrid = 720x480p
Video output: 1080i hybrid = 720x480p
Video output: 480i fixed = 720x480i
Video output: 480p fixed = 720x480p
Video output: 720p fixed = 1280x720p *
Video output: 1080i fixed = 1920x1080i *

*The menus are clearly scaled up from 480 by the tivo. If the menus were in 720p as some claim, why weren't they displayed at 720p when in 720p hybrid mode? I'll tell you why. Because they're 480. Which is displayed at 480p in either hybrid mode.

This may seem like a minor issue but it's a pretty basic flaw. There's just no reason for it. Even without reworking the menus to display different amounts of data in different resolutions, the information that is displayed could at least by rendered in the native resolution of the display and presented in the clearest manner possible. And what about the tivo desktop features? It'd be kinda nice to have a slideshow going but not when my images are scaled down to 480 then back up to 1080. They look terrible. And the web features look pretty bad. It's like WebTV and there's no good reason for it. Low-res thumbnails and fuzzy text on my 1920x1080 monitor. :(

BTW, while you're fixing that, throw in a 1080p mode. That would really make the Yahoo features and photo slideshows look better. :)

[GoHokies!]

Time to bump this thread back up, IMHO.

The menus are NOT HD. Period.

My display is a 1920x1080p LCD panel and those menus aren't 1080i/p or even 720p. Nor is any of the content generated by the Tivo (web stuff/network stuff).

Video output: Native = 720x480i
Video output: 720p hybrid = 720x480p
Video output: 1080i hybrid = 720x480p
Video output: 480i fixed = 720x480i
Video output: 480p fixed = 720x480p
Video output: 720p fixed = 1280x720p *
Video output: 1080i fixed = 1920x1080i *

*The menus are clearly scaled up from 480 by the tivo. If the menus were in 720p as some claim, why weren't they displayed at 720p when in 720p hybrid mode? I'll tell you why. Because they're 480. Which is displayed at 480p in either hybrid mode.

This may seem like a minor issue but it's a pretty basic flaw. There's just no reason for it. Even without reworking the menus to display different amounts of data in different resolutions, the information that is displayed could at least by rendered in the native resolution of the display and presented in the clearest manner possible. And what about the tivo desktop features? It'd be kinda nice to have a slideshow going but not when my images are scaled down to 480 then back up to 1080. They look terrible. And the web features look pretty bad. It's like WebTV and there's no good reason for it. Low-res thumbnails and fuzzy text on my 1920x1080 monitor. :(

BTW, while you're fixing that, throw in a 1080p mode. That would really make the Yahoo features and photo slideshows look better. :)

Where are you getting these numbers from? I think that they all look pretty great myself. :rolleyes:

[Amnesia]

If the menus were in 720p as some claim, why weren't they displayed at 720p when in 720p hybrid mode? I'll tell you why. Because they're 480. Which is displayed at 480p in either hybrid mode.Well, by that same logic:

If they were in 480p as you claim, why aren't they displayed at 480p when in native mode? I'll tell you why. Because they're 720p. Which is displayed at 720p in native mode.

[jtown]

The television displays the resolution of the material that it receives. Do you think I'm making it up? Verify it for yourself. It may look "pretty great" to you but it could (and, for the price we paid, SHOULD) look much better.

[Amnesia]

It may look "pretty great" to you but it could (and, for the price we paid, SHOULD) look much better.If your argument is based on visual quality, that's one thing. My above comment was regarding your output resolution argument...

[jtown]

Well, by that same logic:

If they were in 480p as you claim, why aren't they displayed at 480p when in native mode? I'll tell you why. Because they're 720p. Which is displayed at 720p in native mode.

Wow, dude, you're just so incredibly wrong. I didn't claim they're 480p. I claimed their 480. And they're not displayed at 720p in native mode on my system. They're displayed in 480i.

720x480i = 480i
720x480p = 480p
1280x720p = 720p
1920x1080i = 1080i.

Read the information about how the native, hybrid, and fixed modes work on the S3. Native sends through the native signal unaltered. Tivo menus are displayed in 480i when set to native mode. Hybrid sends through SD material at 480p and HD material at 720p or 1080i depending on which one you use. The menus are displayed in 480p in both hybrid modes just like any other SD source. I'm talking about the menus you get in tivo central, now playing, setup, etc. not the overlays displayed over live or pre-recorded TV.

[jtown]

Had a thought about why the menus are 480. The S3 also has composite and s-video outputs which get 480i regardless of the HDMI/Component settings. If the menus were set to HD, they would have to be scaled down for the SD outputs and would probably be nearly unreadable. Especially if it was 1080 being scaled down to 480.

While I can understand the need to use 480 as a default during setup, I still think 720p, 1080i, and 1080p should be options for people who have HD sets.

[Amnesia]

And they're not displayed at 720p in native mode on my system. They're displayed in 480i.They are for me.

If I switch my output resolution to Native, then my TV will tell me what the input signal is. I go to NBC HD, it says 1080i. I go to ABC HD, it says 720p. I go to TiVo Central, it says 720p.

[GoHokies!]

The television displays the resolution of the material that it receives. Do you think I'm making it up? Verify it for yourself. It may look "pretty great" to you but it could (and, for the price we paid, SHOULD) look much better.

I did, and had the same results as Amnesia - in Naitive I get 720p.

So yes, I do think you're making it up.

Find something else to complain about. :rolleyes:

[CraigHB]

Sounds like they simply stretch the 4:3 menus to 16:9. What they *should* have done is incorporate two sets of menu images, one set in 4:3 for people using a standard screen and one set in 16:9 for people using a widescreen.

I don't own an S3, but plan to. In general, I really don't like it when things are stretched to fit the screen. I would much prefer to view the TiVo menus in 4:3 than stretched to 16:9.

My question is this, if I tell the TiVo to run 4:3 and set the output to native mode, will my TiVo menus look correct? Will setting the TiVo to 4:3 affect the aspect ratio of shows output to the TV?

[geodon005]

I will also chime in that the menus are in 720p. My older Mitsubishi TV will not display 720p, and if I set the video display to Native, I get a blue screen -- in other words, it cannot show the display. If the menus were in either 480i or 480p, I would be able to see them when I switched to Native.

[astrohip]

We can argue all day long about the menu res, but the bottom line is they were *not* reworked for HD or Widescreen. This is not a big issue to me (or even a small one :) ), but I do hope in the next major release they create HD/WS menus. There is room for so much more info on the screen than what is currently being displayed.

Also, consider this another request for HD desktop functionality. I have a TV that has a PC input, and I finally tried it. Hooked up my laptop, and watched true HD big screen computing :up: :up: . Watched a slide show with my own hi-def digipics, and it was astounding. Can't wait for TiVo to make this happen.

[GoHokies!]

Sounds like they simply stretch the 4:3 menus to 16:9. What they *should* have done is incorporate two sets of menu images, one set in 4:3 for people using a standard screen and one set in 16:9 for people using a widescreen.

I don't own an S3, but plan to. In general, I really don't like it when things are stretched to fit the screen. I would much prefer to view the TiVo menus in 4:3 than stretched to 16:9.

My question is this, if I tell the TiVo to run 4:3 and set the output to native mode, will my TiVo menus look correct? Will setting the TiVo to 4:3 affect the aspect ratio of shows output to the TV?

Not true either.

If you actually owned an S3, you would be able to compare the images and see that this is not the case.

Whenever you decide to buy one, as an example count the number of light bulbs running across the bottom of the screen in the background image in some of the screens. Here's a hint. You'll see many more light bulbs in the background on the S3, because the image is different (i.ei. NOT begin stretched).

[sockgap]

Not true either.
If you actually owned an S3, you would be able to compare the images and see that this is not the case.
Whenever you decide to buy one, as an example count the number of light bulbs running across the bottom of the screen in the background image in some of the screens. Here's a hint. You'll see many more light bulbs in the background on the S3, because the image is different (i.ei. NOT begin stretched).

That's just the background image which is in a separate layer. The text and icons are 480p 4:3 and are being stretched to 720p widescreen. Look at the oval shaped icons that should be circular for instance.

[GoHokies!]

That's just the background image which is in a separate layer. The text and icons are 480p 4:3 and are being stretched to 720p widescreen. Look at the oval shaped icons that should be circular for instance.


So now we're going to quibble about parts of the screen? You can't have part of the screen at 480 and part at 720. It's 720. Full stop.

Yes, the circles are ovals but the fonts don't seem to be stretched at all - they could have done a little better job, but the fact remains that the menu was reworked, and it is in HD.

[aaronwt]

Both my HD sets display the menu at 720P in native mode. But whether they are actually HD or not doesn't really matter to me. I just know that the menus are extremely clear compared to the menus in the HR10-250. Those are fuzzy in comparison to the S3 menus.

[Adam1115]

Do you guys really spend that much time looking at the menus?? They get you from point a to point b, you should be watching beautiful HDTV, not looking at the circles!!

[jtown]

http://townjg.home.comcast.net/images/tivo/TivoMenu640x480.jpg

There's my proof. Tivo set to display native, putting out 480i as indicated by both the format button on the tivo (edit) and the info display on the monitor (/edit). If you want to see the full 8mp version, click here (http://townjg.home.comcast.net/images/tivo/TivoMenu8mp.jpg) but keep in mind it's a big file.

Hopefully that'll end the bulls**t about me being a liar. Probably not but if the only thing people can come up with to dismiss my complaint is "it's good enough for me", please go find another thread. If you don't think it matters, go find another thread. If you don't want better quality display when using web features (Yahoo stuff, movie info, etc.) go find another thread. If you don't care about those things, that's fine. I do care about it and I know there are others or this thread wouldn't exist.

The fact is these menus do not take full advantage of our equipment. Why did you buy HD sets and an HD Tivo if you don't want to get the best quality from every aspect of your video playback? I know what a 1080 panel is capable of doing and I expect the flagship HD DVR to make the most of my display.

[GoHokies!]

Yaay, good for you. Do you want a cookie? I'm up at my parents for the holiday, so I can't reciprocate right away. Maybe someone else can.

It is still clear that Tivo made changes and updated the menu screens. Any statement otherwise is completely untrue. Could they have done a better job? Yes, there is always room for improvement. Is it as important to me as the other things that Tivo is working on? Not at all.

The whole premise of the thread is off - the menu is in HD. Discussion about making it look better is certainly welcome, but the outrageous exaggerations and factually incorrect statements are a little too much.

[ChrisMc73]

Well this is BS! I'm taking mine back, haven't even opened it yet, but I won't stand for non HD menus...

Just kidding...so does anyone think they will fix this with a software update?

[nathanziarek]

Yaay, good for you. Do you want a cookie? I'm up at my parents for the holiday, so I can't reciprocate right away. Maybe someone else can.

It is still clear that Tivo made changes and updated the menu screens. Any statement otherwise is completely untrue. Could they have done a better job? Yes, there is always room for improvement. Is it as important to me as the other things that Tivo is working on? Not at all.

The whole premise of the thread is off - the menu is in HD. Discussion about making it look better is certainly welcome, but the outrageous exaggerations and factually incorrect statements are a little too much.

Man! I hate to see what happens when someone disagrees with you over something that acutally matters.

Tivo did make changes to the menu. That argument is kind of a strawman though. No one is saying that Tivo did nothing. What is being said (and what is factually true) is that the menus are not a full 1080p. They are rendered at some other size and then upscaled (and in may cases stretched as deteremined by the oval icons).

Even with that screenshot, I know that the "Native" menus are not 480i because my TV won't display 480i over HDMI and the menus display fine when I have Tivo set to Native.

I do not have a 720p TV, so I can not gauge if the menus appear to be rendered at 720p. However, the fact that the icons become ovals does indicate that the menu is rendered at 4:3 and then stretched to 16:9. Some things -- backgrounds and Tivoman (who, by stretching, would violate the brand requirements, which I'm 100% sure Tivo was worried about) -- appear to look proper, though. The important stuff -- text and visual identifiers, are not.

Is this a dealbreaker? For some. I'm a designer and I think it looks shoddy. Maybe it was necessary for the horsepower of Tivo. People have a reason to be disillusioned and Tivo should know that.

I don't understand the need to defend Tivo, especially in something you obviously don't care about. The premise of this thread is off, but it was brought off course by people not respecting the opinion and evidence of another member.

Back on track: The menus are not sharp at 1080p and the icons are clearly ovals, not circles. I would agree with the idea that the menus are rendered at 480p and then scaled to the output resolution. I'd like to see them sharper, but not at the expense of UI speed. I hope that isn't the tradeoff that needs to be made. This was not an inexpensive machine. You hope it has the horsepower to render text at 1920x1080.

n

[Amnesia]

There's my proof. Tivo set to display native, putting out 480i as indicated by both the format button on the tivo (edit) and the info display on the monitor (/edit).Wait a second...that doesn't seem to be widescreen. How come the picture has pillarboxes?

There's certainly no question that the TiVo menus are in widescreen...Do you have your TiVo set to 16x9? Are you certain that you have it set to Native?

[vman41]

Back on track: The menus are not sharp at 1080p and the icons are clearly ovals, not circles. I would agree with the idea that the menus are rendered at 480p and then scaled to the output resolution. I'd like to see them sharper, but not at the expense of UI speed. I hope that isn't the tradeoff that needs to be made. This was not an inexpensive machine. You hope it has the horsepower to render text at 1920x1080.

The only reason it is an issue for me is that the HMO apps seem to be using the same graphics subsystem as menus, so photo display suffers terribly.

[monkeydust]

While it would be nice to have sharper graphics at 1080, I'd much rather have them fix the damn video/audio dropouts that happen very frequently for me.

[jtown]

Wait a second...that doesn't seem to be widescreen. How come the picture has pillarboxes?

There's certainly no question that the TiVo menus are in widescreen...Do you have your TiVo set to 16x9? Are you certain that you have it set to Native?

It has pillarboxes because it's set to preserve the proper aspect ratio of the source material which, in this case, is SD. If I put it in fill/stretch mode, I'd have the ovals other people are complaining about and my SD programming would be stretched.

BTW, when an overlay is put on a 720p or 1080i source, the overlay is stretched to fill the screen. Look at the (c) copyright notice at the bottom of the guide screen. On SD channels (assuming you have the tivo in native mode and the monitor set to preserve the aspect ratio of the source material), it'll be round. Switch to a 720p or 1080i channel and it'll be an oval. If the overlays were truly generated in 720p, they would be round when laid over 720p or 1080i sources.

As for a software update being responsible for 720p menus, I'm on 8.0.1c-01-2-648 and I believe "1c" is the most recent version.

[Amnesia]

It has pillarboxes because it's set to preserve the proper aspect ratio of the source material which, in this case, is SD. That's very strange.

When I watch SD material (on my 16x9 HDTV), I get pillarboxes. If I watch HD material, no pillarboxes.

If I go to the TiVo menus, no pillarboxes (and, as I mentioned, my TV reports that it's 720p).

Perhaps this is something about your set up---everyone else seems to be reporting that their TVs report that the TiVo menus are in 720p...

[drew2k]

Shouldn't everyone be reporting their viewing configurations, so you could really get to the bottom of this? Otherwise, you could all just be spinning in circles ...

TiVo Info:
1) Current Output Format: Native, Hybrid, 1080i, 720p, ... ?
2) TV Aspect Correction: Full, Panel (letterboxing/sidebars) ?
3) TV Aspect Ratio: Standard Screen 4:3, Widescreen ?

TV Info:
1) TV Type: Widesccreen or Non-widescreen ?
2) Widescreen Type: HD or ED ?
3) Supported Resolution: 480i, 480p, 720i 720p, 1080i ?
4) Aspect Ratio (if Widescreen TV): Native/As Set by Program, Horizon, 16x9, 4x3 ?

[CraigHB]

I think this thread is confusing two separate issues. One is whether the TiVo is outputing menus in HD and the other is whether the menu images and fonts are displayed with the correct aspect ratio. Based on what I've gathered from this thread, I believe the TiVo is outputting 720p natively when browsing the menu system. I believe some of the images and fonts are stretched from 4:3 to to 16:9.

For me I don't really care if the menus are 4:3 or 16:9. I do care that images are displayed in the proper aspect. I agree it's not a big deal. However, given the choice, I would rather view the menus in 4:3 if that's what it takes to see the images and fonts correctly.

[SCSIRAID]

That's very strange.

When I watch SD material (on my 16x9 HDTV), I get pillarboxes. If I watch HD material, no pillarboxes.

If I go to the TiVo menus, no pillarboxes (and, as I mentioned, my TV reports that it's 720p).

Perhaps this is something about your set up---everyone else seems to be reporting that their TVs report that the TiVo menus are in 720p...


I believe he has his screen size set to 4:3. If I change mine to 4:3 then the menus ARE displayed at 480. However, set to 16:9, menus are displayed at 720p.

[drew2k]

I believe he has his screen size set to 4:3. If I change mine to 4:3 then the menus ARE displayed at 480. However, set to 16:9, menus are displayed at 720p.jtown wrote:It has pillarboxes because it's set to preserve the proper aspect ratio of the source material
which sounds to me like he has his TV in "native" aspect ratio, which my TV calls "Set By Program", and just displays whatever is sent to it in the original format.

[andydumi]

I think this thread is confusing two separate issues. One is whether the TiVo is outputing menus in HD and the other is whether the menu images and fonts are displayed with the correct aspect ratio. Based on what I've gathered from this thread, I believe the TiVo is outputting 720p natively when browsing the menu system. I believe some of the images and fonts are stretched from 4:3 to to 16:9.

For me I don't really care if the menus are 4:3 or 16:9. I do care that images are displayed in the proper aspect. I agree it's not a big deal. However, given the choice, I would rather view the menus in 4:3 if that's what it takes to see the images and fonts correctly.

I agree with you. And I think the issue many are overlooking is that the font that looks and works well in 4:3 is designed to also look good when stretched to 16:9.
What they should do instead is make the rendered image larger, with lets say an extra half hour of programming in the guide in 16:9.
The S3 does output menus in HD at 720p, but some elements of the design are remnants from the S2. They should completely rework the menus for 16:9 with extra content rather than stretch a 4:3 image.

[jtown]

My monitor certainly displays HD material "wall-to-wall". Raiders/Jets is about to start and the pre-game stuff looks absolutely amazing in 1080i. That's what HD should look like. And the text and graphics scale down just fine to 480i on the non-HD channel.

[vman41]

Perhaps this is something about your set up---everyone else seems to be reporting that their TVs report that the TiVo menus are in 720p...

My TiVo is set for hybrid 720p output to a 'smart screen' TV aspect ratio and the menus are 480p (which the TV displays with pilarboxes).

[SCSIRAID]

My TiVo is set for hybrid 720p output to a 'smart screen' TV aspect ratio and the menus are 480p (which the TV displays with pilarboxes).

You might try switching the aspect ratio to 16:9 and turn on 'panel' mode and you will get basically the same 4:3 results but the menus will now be widescreen 720p. You can then control the color of the pillarbars via the tivo.

[goldfndr]

I believe he has his screen size set to 4:3. If I change mine to 4:3 then the menus ARE displayed at 480. However, set to 16:9, menus are displayed at 720p.My monitor certainly displays HD material "wall-to-wall". Raiders/Jets is about to start and the pre-game stuff looks absolutely amazing in 1080i. That's what HD should look like. And the text and graphics scale down just fine to 480i on the non-HD channel.
jtown, I've confirmed SCSIRAID's testing: Changing the "TV Aspect Ratio" to "4:3 Classic Screen" or "4:3 Smart Screen" results in 480i menu backgrounds in Native mode (according to my SP4805 with Component cable). Changing to "16:9 Widescreen" results in 720p menu backgrounds in Native mode. This change does not seem to affect recorded or live content (HD or SD), just the menus.

jtown, please [re]visit this menu! Messages & Settings, Settings, Video, TV Aspect Ratio.

[GoHokies!]

jtown, I've confirmed SCSIRAID's testing: Changing the "TV Aspect Ratio" to "4:3 Classic Screen" or "4:3 Smart Screen" results in 480i menu backgrounds in Native mode (according to my SP4805 with Component cable). Changing to "16:9 Widescreen" results in 720p menu backgrounds in Native mode. This change does not seem to affect recorded or live content (HD or SD), just the menus.

jtown, please [re]visit this menu! Messages & Settings, Settings, Video, TV Aspect Ratio.

I got home this evening and can also confirm this. The 720p versions of the menus look noticeably better than their 480i counterparts.

[Diacritical]

What's a pillarbox? Mine is set to 720p fixed, 16:9 and all my circles are round -- nothing looks stretched at all. My biggest complaint is that I cannot see anything during bootup because it comes up in 480i and my component input does not work below 480p. It should boot to whatever resolution it has been set to.

My second biggest complaint is the tendency to block recordings when HDMI is connected and the TV is turned off. That makes no sense to me at all.

[Amnesia]

What's a pillarbox?You know how when you watch 16x9 content on a 4x3 TV you get the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen? That's letterboxing.

Pillarboxing is similar; it happens when you watch 4x3 content on a 16x9 screen. You get black bars on the left and right of the screen...

[SCSIRAID]

What's a pillarbox? Mine is set to 720p fixed, 16:9 and all my circles are round -- nothing looks stretched at all. My biggest complaint is that I cannot see anything during bootup because it comes up in 480i and my component input does not work below 480p. It should boot to whatever resolution it has been set to.

My second biggest complaint is the tendency to block recordings when HDMI is connected and the TV is turned off. That makes no sense to me at all.

Pillarbox is the 'opposite' of letterbox.. the bars are on the side instead of the bottom and top. You get pillarboxes if you display 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio on a 16:9 display.

Does the menu fill the screen?

Ive never heard of a tv that didnt accept 480i over component.....

Hmmm.. blocking recording with the TV off sounds like a bug. The HDMI connection is possibly in a 'strange' state but it doesnt seem that it should block recording.

[drew2k]

Hmmm.. blocking recording with the TV off sounds like a bug. The HDMI connection is possibly in a 'strange' state but it doesnt seem that it should block recording.My HD-upconvert DVD player behaves similarly strangely when I turn off the TV. I use HDMI between TV and DVD player, and if I pause the DVD player and manually turn off my TV, about 3 seconds later the DVD player turns off. Happens every time without fail. I guess the DVD player thinks it's being helpful and uses the two-way communication to shut itself down as a "favor" to me when it thinks I'm not watching TV. :shrug:

[Adam1115]

http://townjg.home.comcast.net/images/tivo/TivoMenu640x480.jpg

There's my proof. Tivo set to display native, putting out 480i as indicated by both the format button on the tivo (edit) and the info display on the monitor (/edit). If you want to see the full 8mp version, click here (http://townjg.home.comcast.net/images/tivo/TivoMenu8mp.jpg) but keep in mind it's a big file.

Hopefully that'll end the bulls**t about me being a liar. Probably not but if the only thing people can come up with to dismiss my complaint is "it's good enough for me", please go find another thread. If you don't think it matters, go find another thread. If you don't want better quality display when using web features (Yahoo stuff, movie info, etc.) go find another thread. If you don't care about those things, that's fine. I do care about it and I know there are others or this thread wouldn't exist.

The fact is these menus do not take full advantage of our equipment. Why did you buy HD sets and an HD Tivo if you don't want to get the best quality from every aspect of your video playback? I know what a 1080 panel is capable of doing and I expect the flagship HD DVR to make the most of my display.

You have it set wrong, go Messages and Settings, Settings, Vieo, TV Aspect Ration, and set it to 16x9 instead of 4x3.

[CraigHB]

My upconverting DVD player over HDMI also does this. If I shut off the TV with the DVD player active, the DVD player goes to "sleep". Conversely, the DVD player won't "wake up" until the TV input is set to the corresponding HDMI input. I think there's some connection sensing going on there. May be a case of electronics too smart for its own good.

[gwsat]

Would it be uncharitable of me to suggest that 95 posts on this insignificant topic goes to show that a lot of folks don’t have enough to do? Of course, my post makes 96. Make of that what you will.

[ashu]

I'm eagerly awaiting a followup response from the people who posted photos and indignantly implied we were lying for calling them liars :)

Of course, I'm easy to please and while this IS a non-issue to me, I can see how people who say a better job could have been done on the HD-ization of the menus absolutely have a point - so I'm not belittling them. Still, it's amazing (to me) that this discussion went on as long as it did!

[GoHokies!]

I'm eagerly awaiting a followup response from the people who posted photos and indignantly implied we were lying for calling them liars :)

Glad I'm not the only one. :) I think that once he gets his S3 set up properly, I think that he'll be a little more pleased.

I really was struck in the difference in between how the menus looked when I changed my Tivo to the 4:3 setting. If I thought that they all looked like that and didn't know how to get it set right I can almost see how someone could be bothered with them.

[Diacritical]

Pillarbox is the 'opposite' of letterbox.. the bars are on the side instead of the bottom and top. You get pillarboxes if you display 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio on a 16:9 display.

Thanks (and you, too, Amnesia). I had a complete block on that. I rarely see it anymore.

Does the menu fill the screen?

All of them do.

Ive never heard of a tv that didnt accept 480i over component.....

Component input 1 works with 480i or 480p, component input 2 and 3 works with 480p through 1080i. I have it set to fixed 720p (same as my TV's native resolution).

Hmmm.. blocking recording with the TV off sounds like a bug. The HDMI connection is possibly in a 'strange' state but it doesnt seem that it should block recording.

From what I was told, the TiVo cannot record *some content* when HDMI is connected and HDCP has not been negotiated (and it cannotbe with the TV turned off). That is, IMO, a bug. It should not be allowed to send a recording over HDMI without HDCP, but recording has nothing to do with it. That may be a hardware limitation, I don't know. I had a similar problem with my TWC box when I had it (the cable box would just turn off when the TV was turned off -- not good with a TiVo recording things).

I was able to replicate pillarboxing and stretched icons/buttons, etc, by setting up the system incorrectly. Didn't like it one bit.

--

[jtown]

Glad I'm not the only one. :) I think that once he gets his S3 set up properly, I think that he'll be a little more pleased.

I really was struck in the difference in between how the menus looked when I changed my Tivo to the 4:3 setting. If I thought that they all looked like that and didn't know how to get it set right I can almost see how someone could be bothered with them.

Are you talking about me? My Tivo is set up properly. My monitor is set up properly. When I have the tivo set to native resolution and the monitor set to preserve the aspect ratio of the source material, that is how it is displayed. It's displayed that way because the Tivo's menus are 480. Changing the tivo to widescreen/720/1080 mode will not do anything but alter the background behind the menus. The text in the menus will be even more distorted than it is now because, in addition to being scaled up to 1080, it will be stretched horizontally. Forcing the Tivo to display menus in a different mode won't make the menus or overlays look any better and it certainly doesn't make them HD any more than I could make any other SD source HD just by scaling it up to 1080 and switching the TV to fill or zoom mode.

I enjoy my tivo quite a bit. I watched a bunch of bowl games in HD and the picture is amazing. The text and graphics on the 1080i material is exactly what the tivo menu system should look like, Razor sharp. In fact, the tivo should look better since it wouldn't suffer from compression artifacts.

[GoHokies!]

Are you talking about me? My Tivo is set up properly. My monitor is set up properly. When I have the tivo set to native resolution and the monitor set to preserve the aspect ratio of the source material, that is how it is displayed. It's displayed that way because the Tivo's menus are 480. Changing the tivo to widescreen/720/1080 mode will not do anything but alter the background behind the menus. The text in the menus will be even more distorted than it is now because, in addition to being scaled up to 1080, it will be stretched horizontally. Forcing the Tivo to display menus in a different mode won't make the menus or overlays look any better and it certainly doesn't make them HD any more than I could make any other SD source HD just by scaling it up to 1080 and switching the TV to fill or zoom mode.

I enjoy my tivo quite a bit. I watched a bunch of bowl games in HD and the picture is amazing. The text and graphics on the 1080i material is exactly what the tivo menu system should look like, Razor sharp. In fact, the tivo should look better since it wouldn't suffer from compression artifacts.

I sure am! Your tivo is not set up correctly.

Go into your video settings, and set your TV aspect ration to 16:9, since you have a 16:9 monitor.

If you are concerened about preserving the correct aspect ratio of programming, change the "Aspect correction mode" to panel. This will ensure that your 4:3 programming isn't stretched.

If you do this, the text is not distorted.

[SCSIRAID]

Are you talking about me? My Tivo is set up properly. My monitor is set up properly. When I have the tivo set to native resolution and the monitor set to preserve the aspect ratio of the source material, that is how it is displayed. It's displayed that way because the Tivo's menus are 480. Changing the tivo to widescreen/720/1080 mode will not do anything but alter the background behind the menus. The text in the menus will be even more distorted than it is now because, in addition to being scaled up to 1080, it will be stretched horizontally. Forcing the Tivo to display menus in a different mode won't make the menus or overlays look any better and it certainly doesn't make them HD any more than I could make any other SD source HD just by scaling it up to 1080 and switching the TV to fill or zoom mode.

I enjoy my tivo quite a bit. I watched a bunch of bowl games in HD and the picture is amazing. The text and graphics on the 1080i material is exactly what the tivo menu system should look like, Razor sharp. In fact, the tivo should look better since it wouldn't suffer from compression artifacts.

I respectfully disagree. You dont have a 4:3 smartscreen display... you have a 16:9 display. A 4:3 smartscreen would be a set like the 4:3 Sony 40XBR800 which supports Hi Def but letterboxed on a 4:3 screen. The menus are outputted at 480i for this display type so they wouldnt be 'tiny' in the letterbox. For a 16:9 display, aspect ratio corrections are done via the full, panel and zoom settings. I maintain that the proper Tivo setting for your display type is 16:9 mode with aspect ratio correction set to Panel.

To each his own.

[TostitoBandito]

I respectfully disagree. You dont have a 4:3 smartscreen display... you have a 16:9 display. A 4:3 smartscreen would be a set like the 4:3 Sony 40XBR800 which supports Hi Def but letterboxed on a 4:3 screen. The menus are outputted at 480i for this display type so they wouldnt be 'tiny' in the letterbox. For a 16:9 display, aspect ratio corrections are done via the full, panel and zoom settings. I maintain that the proper Tivo setting for your display type is 16:9 mode with aspect ratio correction set to Panel.

To each his own.

This is correct. 16:9 and panel are the settings you should use.

And yes, the menu is in 480i but is output and stretched to 720p by the Tivo.

[SCSIRAID]

This is correct. 16:9 and panel are the settings you should use.

And yes, the menu is in 480i but is output and stretched to 720p by the Tivo.

As to the actual resolution of the image... I dont believe anyone here can speak with authority what its native resolution is (unless they have gone into the code and grabbed the image file). Actually... I dont think its really relevant. The image was obviously reworked from the S2 images given the higher number of bulbs etc etc. The oval shaped 'bullets' certainly seem to suggest that its a 4:3 optimized image. If you think about it... its a much better comprimise to enlongate a 4:3 optimized pic on a 16:9 display rather than compressing a 16:9 optimized image for a 4:3 display (nasty!). What the S3 ended up with is an image that works well on both 16:9 screens and 4:3 screens reguardless of its native resolution. An even better solution would be to have TWO images/fonts but that would likely be a lot of work for little 'real' benefit....

[TostitoBandito]

As to the actual resolution of the image... I dont believe anyone here can speak with authority what its native resolution is (unless they have gone into the code and grabbed the image file). Actually... I dont think its really relevant. The image was obviously reworked from the S2 images given the higher number of bulbs etc etc. The oval shaped 'bullets' certainly seem to suggest that its a 4:3 optimized image. If you think about it... its a much better comprimise to enlongate a 4:3 optimized pic on a 16:9 display rather than compressing a 16:9 optimized image for a 4:3 display (nasty!). What the S3 ended up with is an image that works well on both 16:9 screens and 4:3 screens reguardless of its native resolution. An even better solution would be to have TWO images/fonts but that would likely be a lot of work for little 'real' benefit....

Well, that's kind of what I meant. The original menus are clearly in a 4:3 resolution from seeing the stretched text and images, which would most likely be 480i. I'm not complaining about it one way or the other, just pointing out what it is.

[GoHokies!]

Well, that's kind of what I meant. The original menus are clearly in a 4:3 resolution from seeing the stretched text and images, which would most likely be 480i. I'm not complaining about it one way or the other, just pointing out what it is.

I'm not seeing stretched text... I agree that the circles are ovals.

I went from my S2 (with the TV set to pillarbox it) to the S3 (correctly configured) and the text looked the same to me (and the overall image looked MUCH better, but there was a lot in play there between the different setups).

[vman41]

So now we're going to quibble about parts of the screen? You can't have part of the screen at 480 and part at 720. It's 720. Full stop.

Yes, the circles are ovals but the fonts don't seem to be stretched at all - they could have done a little better job, but the fact remains that the menu was reworked, and it is in HD.

The video hardware knows how to mix and overlay different video sources or else you couldn't get a channel banner. It's perfectly possible for the background to be one resolution and the foreground another that is hardware scaled.

The trademark symbol after "TV guide" on the TiVo Central screen is part of the character set and is definitely stretched. In 480P, it's a circle with an 'R' in it, while at 720p, it's an oval with a wider 'R' in it.

[MiamiMan]

I suspect that Tivo, in a rush to get the S3 out, compromised the menus to fit on 4:3 and 16:9 screens. The S3 menus do look better than on my S2 (in my opinion) regardless of the stretching but this is not what's important to me.

I have an HDTV capable of far greater resolution than 4:3 TVs. I want more information displayed so I don't have to waste as much time scrolling through the menu list. This to me is far more important than how pretty it looks (although there's no reason why it shouldn't also look pretty).

Hopefully Tivo will implement this capability in the near future with a new software release.

[Adam1115]

The video hardware knows how to mix and overlay different video sources or else you couldn't get a channel banner. It's perfectly possible for the background to be one resolution and the foreground another that is hardware scaled.

The trademark symbol after "TV guide" on the TiVo Central screen is part of the character set and is definitely stretched. In 480P, it's a circle with an 'R' in it, while at 720p, it's an oval with a wider 'R' in it.

Right... We'd really have to start picking things apart to make the distinction. Saying "It's 480i" or "it's 720P" natively doesn't cover everything.

It's possible, for example, that the circle icons are the same whether the menu is displayed 480i, 720p, 4x3 or 16x9 and thus is stretched yet the text could be properly displayed in the higher resolution and aspect ratio. I'm really not sure, but it looks fine to me.. I do wish they'd upgrade the photo app to 720P as it is the one place that the menus really SHOULD be hd...

[jtown]

After this post, I'm done with this stupid thread. The bottom line is the menus and text overlays look like crap compared to what our 720 and 1080 HD sets are capable of. Watch a football game broadcast in the native resolution of your monitor. Look at the text and graphics on that broadcast. Then hit the guide button and tell me Tivo's overlay looks anything like that. It doesn't. Its fuzzy, blocky text looks terrible compared to the broadcasters' overlays.

The text you are seeing is scaled up from 480.

The images (logos, bars, icons, etc.) are a mix of 720 and 480. Look at the TV Guide icon. Pixelated.

Changing the aspect ratio to 16x9 does not provide higher resolution text. It scales the existing text overlay to 720p and stretches it to fill the screen. (You can tell it's stretched because the circle in the copyright symbol turns into an oval.) That is not 720p any more than my SD programming is 720p if I scale it up and stretch it to fill the screen.

And to get that, I have to set the tivo to 16x9 mode. When I do that, my SD programming gets squeezed horizontally because the tivo thinks it needs to compensate for my 16x9 display. In order to see SD material in the proper aspect ratio I have to set my TV to "fill". So that means the Tivo squeezes it then the TV expands it (and chops off some of the top and bottom). As if SD material isn't bad enough. Processing it two more times doesn't help. And, when HD material is displayed in "fill" mode, it crops a big chunk off all four sides which means I have to remember to turn it off or my HD image is not being displayed 1:1.

Tivo should provide a separate setting that allows the user to select the menu/overlay mode that best fits their display and provide proper source material for all resolutions. It doesn't take a quad-core xeon processor to generate sharp text and display some .jpg and .gif images so save the "I don't want slow menus" posts. At this stage, I'm not even talking about putting more information on the screen. Just make it clean and sharp. There's no reason why the text and graphics generated by the Tivo should be of lower quality than what you see overlayed on a sporting event. Heck, they should look better since there won't be any compression artifacts.

[Adam1115]

After this post, I'm done with this stupid thread. The bottom line is the menus and text overlays look like crap compared to what our 720 and 1080 HD sets are capable of. Watch a football game broadcast in the native resolution of your monitor. Look at the text and graphics on that broadcast. Then hit the guide button and tell me Tivo's overlay looks anything like that. It doesn't. Its fuzzy, blocky text looks terrible compared to the broadcasters' overlays.

The text you are seeing is scaled up from 480.

The images (logos, bars, icons, etc.) are a mix of 720 and 480. Look at the TV Guide icon. Pixelated.

I agree with some of what you say, it doesn't look as good as it could.. (or should..) I think they had (probably) some debate on what to do here, as the TiVo has to support 480p, 720p, and 1080i in both 16x9 and 4x3. I guess they should have done 4 sets of menus. 4x3 480p, 4x3 720p, 16x9 480p, and 16x9 720p. (Keep in mind, there are a lot of "ED" 480p widescreen sets, and also a lot of "HD" 720p 4x3 sets..) I'm guessing that this would not be a simple task, delaying the release of the Series3 while they develop a method to access 4 sets of every possible screen in the system.

[ashu]

jtown, I hate anything but OAR (Original Aspect Ratio), and my TiVo does NOT flatten 4:3 programming whens et to 16:9 mode. Your TV is doing that.

No one disagreed with your comments about how the UI COULD be better, we just clarified it wasn't 480i like you insisted it was.

Heck, I've take much flak already for being a proponent of the 'TiVo should upconvert to 1080p' motion in the appropriate thread :)

[phototrek]

And to get that, I have to set the tivo to 16x9 mode. When I do that, my SD programming gets squeezed horizontally because the tivo thinks it needs to compensate for my 16x9 display. In order to see SD material in the proper aspect ratio I have to set my TV to "fill". So that means the Tivo squeezes it then the TV expands it (and chops off some of the top and bottom). As if SD material isn't bad enough. Processing it two more times doesn't help. And, when HD material is displayed in "fill" mode, it crops a big chunk off all four sides which means I have to remember to turn it off or my HD image is not being displayed 1:1.
Funny that apparently everyone else around here can set up their S3 and TV in such a way that it works both in SD and HD. I am not surprised that after having both your S3 and TV set incorrectly that things don't look all that great...

[Kenji]

Funny that apparently everyone else around here can set up their S3 and TV in such a way that it works both in SD and HD.
Sorry, that's incorrect. I had exactly the same experiences that jtown did regarding whether to have the S3 output 16:9 or 4:3 video, and I chose 4:3 for the same reasons that he did, plus the fact that I'd rather have my HDTV and not one of its input sources be in charge of the way the video is displayed.

As I stated in this thread long ago, the fact that the TiVo menus are stretched when the S3 outputs an HD video signal isn't that big a deal for me. However, as the reviewer at PC Magazine wrote, it's a shame that the people at TiVo allowed the S3 to ship with some features that were "copied verbatim from the standard-definition TiVos without consideration for how they would look when viewed in HD—an environment the Series3 was specifically designed to support."

[dswallow]

At least in the first "instructional" video that came with the Series 3, the on-screen displays shown in the video look quite different than what the on-screen displays really appear like -- as if they really were in HD with all circles appearing round and the text looking like there's more of it in the display (less "wide" a font).

[IzzyB68]

Sorry, that's incorrect. I had exactly the same experiences that jtown did regarding whether to have the S3 output 16:9 or 4:3 video, and I chose 4:3 for the same reasons that he did, plus the fact that I'd rather have my HDTV and not one of its input sources be in charge of the way the video is displayed.

As I stated in this thread long ago, the fact that the TiVo menus are stretched when the S3 outputs an HD video signal isn't that big a deal for me. However, as the reviewer at PC Magazine wrote, it's a shame that the people at TiVo allowed the S3 to ship with some features that were "copied verbatim from the standard-definition TiVos without consideration for how they would look when viewed in HD—an environment the Series3 was specifically designed to support."

Are you sure you have your TV settings correct? I have my Tivo set to 16:9, my TV set to Natural, and my Tivo set to up convert to 1080i. All of my SD and my HD looks fine. The SD once in awhile looks stretched on odd channels like Comedy Central, but it looked this way before I got my Tivo too. I see better PQ with the Tivo than I did before Tivo.

[bareyb]

The icons all look fine on my TV (Sony Bravia LCD) and in fact look fantastic compared to all my old SD TiVos. I think the S3 is better in every conceiveable way over the TiVo's I've had in the past. Can't believe how fast it can change priorities now! If it only had a single button that would toggle Closed Captioning on and off I'd be in heaven. :)

[GoHokies!]

After this post, I'm done with this stupid thread.

That's fine. if you refuse to configure your Tivo correctly so that they don't look as good as they could, then that's on you.

But don't come around here complaining about it when we told you how to fix it.

I don't disagree that they could look even better, but if you're going to to deliberately set your Tivo up so that they look worse so you can complain about it, that's BS.

[Kenji]

Are you sure you have your TV settings correct? I have my Tivo set to 16:9, my TV set to Natural, and my Tivo set to up convert to 1080i. All of my SD and my HD looks fine. The SD once in awhile looks stretched on odd channels like Comedy Central, but it looked this way before I got my Tivo too. I see better PQ with the Tivo than I did before Tivo.
I never said that I had a problem with either my SD or HD video; they both look great. I said that setting the S3 so it outputs an HD video signal results in the TiVo menus being slightly stretched horizontally, which they are - and I'll bet yours are too.

[IzzyB68]

I never said that I had a problem with either my SD or HD video; they both look great. I said that setting the S3 so it outputs an HD video signal results in the TiVo menus being slightly stretched horizontally, which they are - and I'll bet yours are too.

Ahhh...menues...yes, I thought you meant the actual stuff you watched was that way.

[TostitoBandito]

I'm not seeing stretched text... I agree that the circles are ovals.

I went from my S2 (with the TV set to pillarbox it) to the S3 (correctly configured) and the text looked the same to me (and the overall image looked MUCH better, but there was a lot in play there between the different setups).

Well the ovals and other images are the giveaway. If you compress that image to 4:3 the ovals become circles and the text compresses horizontally so that it appears less stretched-out. It's just harder to see on the text, but the letters are wider and further apart in the 720p menu. It doesn't necessarily look bad, but it's there if you look for it. This is all pretty silly anyways. A true HD and aspect ratio-correct menu is at the bottom of the list of things I want Tivo to address in an update.

[bareyb]

I never said that I had a problem with either my SD or HD video; they both look great. I said that setting the S3 so it outputs an HD video signal results in the TiVo menus being slightly stretched horizontally, which they are - and I'll bet yours are too.

My S3 is set at 1080 Hybrid. My TV can show 720 but this makes switching back and forth between the menus and live or recorded TV faster since the TV doesn't have to change resolutions as often. At any rate, I've tried to see what you guys are talking about, but on my TV the icons are all round and not stretched at all. The recording ball is oval when it's recording in HD but as far as I know that's normal. It's just letting you know that you are recording in HD no? All my other icons look perfectly normal and in fact look GREAT compared to my last few Tivo boxes. Huge improvement. What are these oval icons of which you speak? :confused:

[TostitoBandito]

My S3 is set at 1080 Hybrid. My TV can show 720 but this makes switching back and forth between the menus and live or recorded TV faster since the TV doesn't have to change resolutions as often. At any rate, I've tried to see what you guys are talking about, but on my TV the icons are all round and not stretched at all. The recording ball is oval when it's recording in HD but as far as I know that's normal. It's just letting you know that you are recording in HD no? All my other icons look perfectly normal and in fact look GREAT compared to my last few Tivo boxes. Huge improvement. What are these oval icons of which you speak? :confused:

The circles when you do guided setup and the Tivo connects to download program info. They are circles on a 4:3 display in 480i/p and ovals on a 16:9 display with the 720p menu (because it is stretched).

[bareyb]

The circles when you do guided setup and the Tivo connects to download program info. They are circles on a 4:3 display in 480i/p and ovals on a 16:9 display with the 720p menu (because it is stretched).
How often do you do guided setup? If that's the case who cares? You do it once or twice and never again... I think I must be misunderstanding because this is a non issue.

[tenthplanet]

I never said that I had a problem with either my SD or HD video; they both look great. I said that setting the S3 so it outputs an HD video signal results in the TiVo menus being slightly stretched horizontally, which they are - and I'll bet yours are too.

And in some cases the TV will get in your way. On some HD TV's ( I won't mention brands but those of you who have hit this problem will know what I mean)
The set will decide aspect ratio when it detects an HD signal and won't let you change it. As long as it sees an HD signal it assumes everything is widescreen so if something comes on that is not widescreen it doesn't know and streches it. Some TV's let you override this and allow you to change the aspect ratio and some don't.
Eventually there will have to be a true HD 16X9 menu for the Tivo as I don't expect TV manufacturers to become more accommodating. Don't be surprised if the menu problem also will arise with High Definition DVD players.

[vman41]

And in some cases the TV will get in your way. On some HD TV's ( I won't mention brands but those of you who have hit this problem will know what I mean)
The set will decide aspect ratio when it detects an HD signal and won't let you change it. As long as it sees an HD signal it assumes everything is widescreen so if something comes on that is not widescreen it doesn't know and streches it.


You could argue that the set is acting sensibly. All 1080 and 720 line 'HD' signal formats are strictly 16:9 aspect ratio, only the 480 line formats are potentially ambiguous. If any HD signal needs stretched to correct the aspect ratio, there's been an been an error where the signal is being generated. A zoom function to handle the case of an HD upconvert of a letterboxed SD picture is nice though.

BTW, the S3 aspect modes (panel, zoom, full) only apply to cases where it is upconverting SD to an HD output format as well. You can't make it zoom the middle of an HD picture (1440x810 of 1080i or 960x540 of 720p) to fill the screen.

[TostitoBandito]

How often do you do guided setup? If that's the case who cares? You do it once or twice and never again... I think I must be misunderstanding because this is a non issue.

It's just an example where you can see clearly that the 720p menus are stretched. And no, I don't care. I'm just correcting bad information that I have seen here.

[dswallow]

These are actual photos taken with a Canon Digital Rebel on a tripod in front of a Fujitsu 50" plasma display.

This is from part 1 of the TiVo Video Tours included on the Series 3 out of the box. Note the stretched TiVo doll, but round circles and a normal width font. Also note there's no day of the week. The Series 3 was in native mode and the video played at 720p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_tour_nowplayinglist.jpg


Here's the same thing but from my recently purchased Series 3 (though folders are turned on). Note the oval "circles" and the wider font. The Series 3 was in Native mode and that was putting out a 720p signal.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_real_nowplayinglist_720p.jpg


This is the same thing but with the Series 3 adjusted for 480p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_real_nowplayinglist_480p.jpg


I think the screens that were from the TiVo Tour Videos are mock-ups. It appears to be a stretch background but with text from an unstretched display pasted on top. It closely matches the look from the 480p output text/circles.

[dswallow]

This is from the TiVo Tour Video. It was played in native mode output at 720p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_tour_beyond.jpg


This is the same display but from the real Series 3. The Series 3 was in native mode and the output was at 720p. Note the arrow in the top right that's missing in the same screen from the TiVo Tour.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_real_beyond.jpg

[dswallow]

Not everything is a mock-up. Most of what's in the TiVo Tour Videos does appear to be the same as what you'd see on a real Series 3 directly. For example...


This is from the TiVo Tour Videos. Native mode and output at 720p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_tour_musicphotosmore.jpg


This is from the real Series 3. Native mode and outputting at 720p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_real_musicphotosmore.jpg


Of course, also note the differing down arrow format in the bottom right corner.

[dswallow]

Now just imagine what the guide COULD look like with the narrow font. It'd just be awesome to actually be able to see at a glance lengthier program titles. Right now, this is what it looks like (from the TiVo Tour Videos). Again, native mode output at 720p.

http://www.2150.com/tivo/files/s3_tour_guide.jpg


And personally I wouldn't care if it was always using a narrower font. In other words, if it meant on 480p displays it'd look "exceptionally narrow" I could live with that; I'd rather compromise with tinier text than compromise with wider text. So even jsut swapping the font file for a narrow version, which when stretched looks "normal" would be a nice option to have, if anything else is too difficult.

Of course, it's something that probably should be decided by the end user. There'd be a big difference displaying it on a 50" display versus a 20" display, for instance.

[windracer]

I think the screens that were from the TiVo Tour Videos are mock-ups.
Hey, finally someone agrees with me (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4628290&&#post4628290)! :)

[AbMagFab]

Bottom line:

- The menus are in HD, in that they are being displayed in 720p (default)
- The fonts, circles, and others are just stretched versions of the SD versions, and as such aren't taking advantage of the increased resolution and screen width

[Adam1115]

Bottom line:

- The menus are in HD, in that they are being displayed in 720p (default)
- The fonts, circles, and others are just stretched versions of the SD versions, and as such aren't taking advantage of the increased resolution and screen width

I think we owe the op an appology, because I'm starting to get totally confused by the menus.

I hooked my S2 to my HD TV, not matter what I d I can't get the menus to look the same as the S3. They aren't 4X3, they aren't 16x9, I don't know what they are..

Maybe 10x6.5? :confused:

[GoHokies!]

I hooked my S2 to my HD TV, not matter what I d I can't get the menus to look the same as the S3. They aren't 4X3, they aren't 16x9, I don't know what they are..

Maybe 10x6.5? :confused:

I'm confused too - what exactly are you trying to say/in what way do the look different?

I have an S2 hooked up to the HDTV for kids shows and MRV - the overall PQ looks must worse, being in 480i vice 720p and connected by coax. The backgrounds look a little different because as I mentioned they definately seem to have been reworked. I can't remember about some of the other aspects that we've discussed - I'll have to check them at home.

[CraigHB]

Images and fonts with incorrect aspect ratio are something that really bothers me. I can plainly see the problem in the photos dswallow posted. It looks crappy and needs to be fixed. Shame on TiVo for doing something in such a shoddy manner. It would have been better to pillarbox all the menus than to stretch images and fonts like that.

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode. Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9? It's like watching TV in a funhouse mirror.

[bareyb]

Images and fonts with incorrect aspect ratio are something that really bothers me. I can plainly see the problem in the photos dswallow posted. It looks crappy and needs to be fixed. Shame on TiVo for doing something in such a shoddy manner. It would have been better to pillarbox all the menus than to stretch images and fonts like that.

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode. Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9? It's like watching TV in a funhouse mirror.
It depends on your TV. Some TV's do an almost undetectable job of stretching just the edges or some such. My Sony runs in "full mode" for 4:3 all the time and in most cases it looks good enough that I don't even think about it. Not an issue at all and much less distracting than those "filler bars" on the sides IMO.

[ashu]

A lot of people do (stretch 4:3 to 16:9). Especially those concerned about plasma burn-in (which really isnt that much of a possibility with new plasmas).

Give me OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) or nothing at all. I detest the funky stretches etc

[windracer]

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode. Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9? It's like watching TV in a funhouse mirror.
I do. My Panny plasma has a Just mode (aside from Zoom, and Full) that does a fantastic job of just stretching the edges of the screen and not the middle. The result: I can barely tell I'm watching 4x3 content (except of course, that it's SD).

[Mike Farrington]

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode. Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9? It's like watching TV in a funhouse mirror.
My FIL does, but I just bite my tongue I just don't feel like explaining why its' not correct. Besides, he has that non-linear stretch that doesn't look too horrible (still bugs me though).

[drew2k]

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode.Why? It upsets you that someone else may like using that feature? Just because you don't want to use it doesn't make it undesirable to others.Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9?I do, for lots of SD content. For SD letterboxed shows (like Battlestar Galactica and Nip/Tuck), I use my TV's Cinema Zoom mode to gro the image to perfectly fill the screen, with no edges cut off. I watch non-letterboxed SD programs in "Horizon" mode, where the center two-thirds of the screen is almost unscaled, and the left and right edges are scaled out to meet the borders of my screen. I prefer this over looking at glassy black pillars on the left and right, or even worse, looking a black bars all around the image for SD letterboxed shows.

[CraigHB]

Why? It upsets you that someone else may like using that feature? Just because you don't want to use it doesn't make it undesirable to others.I guess the answer is "yes" then. People do use the fill mode. Hey, I don't care if people like it. I just don't use it myself. I made a false ASSumption there. I prefer the pillarbox to any distortion in image aspect. That's not to be confused with zoom mode. I do use that on SD shows in letterbox. But, there's no distortion in aspect there.

[Adam1115]

BTW, I think it's ridiculous that TV's have a fill mode. Does anyone actually ever watch a 4:3 show stretched to 16:9? It's like watching TV in a funhouse mirror.

Not really ridiculous... MOST older TV's, Plasmas and Projections, have burn in problems. They almost always recommend stretching or filling in to prevent burn in. If you ignore this, they put light gray lines on the side which is REALLY annoying. I used to use the fill on my projection for that reason only. (It would allow me to set it black, but would reset to gray after a short period of time.. like 2 hours..)

Now that more modern TV's don't have burn in problems (New plasmas, LCD's, DLP's), we can use black lines which is MUCH less distracting, and I agree, looks much better.

[ashu]

My FIL does, but I just bite my tongue I just don't feel like explaining why its' not correct. Besides, he has that non-linear stretch that doesn't look too horrible (still bugs me though).

He he - my favorite uncle & aunt also do this, and I cringe too. They even proudly show off their 'HDTV' to everyone! Fortunately, int he circles they run in, nobody knows the difference.

For Christmas, I bought them a nice HDTV antenna, but on the 25th, I was behind their (Toshuba DLP) TV, and realized it lacked a tuner! And they're between two metros and *could* have picked up a plethora of great local channels from both markets!

I'm trying to talk them into an S3 to replace their AWFUL SA8000D (nonHD) DVRH^H^Habomination.

Oh well, I'm resigned to spending Thanksgivings/Xmases etc there, and watching football players turn into funny, waddling, fat men as they reach the edges of their 'Just' stretched screen, without giggling like a teenager :)

[ashu]

Why? It upsets you that someone else may like using that feature? Just because you don't want to use it doesn't make it undesirable to others.I do, for lots of SD content. For SD letterboxed shows (like Battlestar Galactica and Nip/Tuck), I use my TV's Cinema Zoom mode to gro the image to perfectly fill the screen, with no edges cut off. I watch non-letterboxed SD programs in "Horizon" mode, where the center two-thirds of the screen is almost unscaled, and the left and right edges are scaled out to meet the borders of my screen. I prefer this over looking at glassy black pillars on the left and right, or even worse, looking a black bars all around the image for SD letterboxed shows.

drew, I know you enjoy posting (usually valid) contrarian responses, and I appreciate the point of view more often than not - but we're only talking about 4:3 shows (non letterboxed) being stretched (with an AR inaccuracy introduced) to fill 16:9 screens.

All OAR-enjoying-folk (you, craig, and I!) know zooming letterboxed SD content is neat ... but inapplicable to this discussion segue ;)

[drew2k]

drew, I know you enjoy posting (usually valid) contrarian responses, and I appreciate the point of view more often than not - but we're only talking about 4:3 shows (non letterboxed) being stretched (with an AR inaccuracy introduced) to fill 16:9 screens.

All OAR-enjoying-folk (you, craig, and I!) know zooming letterboxed SD content is neat ... but inapplicable to this discussion segue ;) :p I actually thought I flew under the radar most of the time here, so I'm really quite surprised to find out I may instead have a reputation here! Me! A reputation! (Damn. Now I have to live up to it or actively fight it. Decisions, decisions ...)

Anyyay, I didn't mean to further lead the segue away from the important topic at hand (TiVo S3 Menus: HD, or NOT? On the next Hardball!), but just wanted to reply to what I thought was a broad question about stretching 4:3. Sorry ... now back to menu screen captures and such!

Carry on! :D

[ashu]

(more OT)
You'd be surprised!

If I showed up with a head-gear-less avatar, there would be chaos! Reputations are important :)

[bareyb]

(more OT)
You'd be surprised!

If I showed up with a head-gear-less avatar, there would be chaos! Reputations are important :)

I say give it a try and see what happens! :p

[porieux]

Wow those menus don't look good at all :(

I don't care who thinks it's not important this is a luxury item and I'm not dropping that much cash on something so sloppy. Wake me up when it's fixed.

[DCIFRTHS]

It depends on your TV. Some TV's do an almost undetectable job of stretching just the edges or some such. My Sony runs in "full mode" for 4:3 all the time and in most cases it looks good enough that I don't even think about it. Not an issue at all and much less distracting than those "filler bars" on the sides IMO.

My Sony does a great job of stretching too. Nothing to be ashamed of :)

[DCIFRTHS]

Wow those menus don't look good at all :(

I don't care who thinks it's not important this is a luxury item and I'm not dropping that much cash on something so sloppy. Wake me up when it's fixed.

If you gave the S3 a chance, in your home, you might feel differently. The menus aren't bad, and the convenience of a TiVo, coupled with dual HD tuners, is a winning combination :)

[Amnesia]

Wow those menus don't look good at all (...)Wake me up when it's fixed.I hope that's sarcasm. Why would anyone really care if the menus look perfect or not?

Yes, yes, we all wish they did, but I bought my S3 to watch recorded shows, not menus and the shows look great...

[CraigHB]

Now that more modern TV's don't have burn in problems (New plasmas, LCD's, DLP's), we can use black lines which is MUCH less distracting, and I agree, looks much better.I always watch shows in their true aspect. It's not a problem for me at all if shows don't totally fill the screen. My LCD TV has a flat black face and a nice flat black non-reflective screen. Blacks are very black on-screen with this set. I hardly notice letterbox or pillarbox bars. Theatre size movies still get a letter box since their aspect seems to be 2:1, but it's just a narrow bar on top and bottom. Though, a lot of releases are in 16:9 and they're nice because they fill the screen perfectly.

[Amnesia]

Theatre size movies still get a letter box since their aspect seems to be 2:1 (...)FYI: It's 2.35:1

[Rob Helmerichs]

FYI: It's 2.35:1
...and not all (in fact, not most) theatrical releases are 2.35:1. Many are 16:9.

[Arcady]

Most theatrical releases are 1.85:1. A 16x9 TV set is actually 1.78:1, which is not quite as wide, but close enough that the picture usually fills the screen when playing 1.85:1 content.

[drowe]

someone please wipe this thread from the earth... :D

[porieux]

I hope that's sarcasm. Why would anyone really care if the menus look perfect or not?

Yes, yes, we all wish they did, but I bought my S3 to watch recorded shows, not menus and the shows look great...


No it's not sarcasm. You don't 'watch the menus'? Give me a break please,
you need to use them constantly to use the TiVo.

Like I said I don't care what anyone else thinks. TiVo came out with a great
system like 7 years ago, but their updates and improvements since then have
not been impressive at all. I wonder if they laid off or lost the team that
developed the initial software. They are really really lucky that they have
been able to stay on top this long, really says something about how pathetic
their competition is.

I want to love the new TiVo, but it has a long way to go before it will
be acceptable to me. For the price I expect a lot more than they are
offering. I certainly don't expect to LOSE features I already have...!

[Amnesia]

You don't 'watch the menus'? Give me a break please, you need to use them constantly to use the TiVo.I'm on the menu for 30 seconds to watch a 40 minute show. That's about 1% of the time.

[rufusryker]

No it's not sarcasm. You don't 'watch the menus'? Give me a break please,
you need to use them constantly to use the TiVo.


I'm with Porieux! I almost never watch actual shows or movies, I just enjoy viewing the menus. Occasionally, I will start to play a show, but I immediately miss the menus and flip back to them. I refuse to purchase a Series 3 until TiVo the menu system is non-interlaced 1080p and can display metallic 5th Colors. Wake me up when TiVo corrects this unfortunate situation!

[DCIFRTHS]

... Like I said I don't care what anyone else thinks. ...

Then there's no point in discussing it.

[vman41]

I hope that's sarcasm. Why would anyone really care if the menus look perfect or not?

For me, it's not the menus per se, but rather that the HME apps (namely photo viewing) that suffer from the same limitation.

[Grunty]

I'm glad I found this thread- I'm a new owner of a S3. I noticed the off aspect ratio on the menus right away, and it has been the only annoyance I have experienced so far. I am running on 1080i fixed.

TiVo, if you are listening, please fix this!

[astrohip]

it has been the only annoyance I have experienced so far.
Patience, you'll find a few more. :D

(but far fewer than the alternatives!)

[pufftissue]

What is the word on fixing the menus to support HD so that when I use audiofaucet the text and album art in general are more sharp?

[windracer]

Audiofaucet is an HME app, right? In order for it to be "HD" the developer would have to update their code, and I don't think the HME API has been updated/released to the public for that. Galleon has the same issue (though personally I don't think the screens look that bad).

[wdwms]

Has Tivo said anything about fixing the stretch in the menus? Has it been done? pardon my ignorance, after 6 years with a S1 I ordered my S3 yesterday..

Thanks

[s2kdave]

If you look at the HME HD app I made or the HD photos app you can see clear as day that the normal TiVo menus are not HD and are 640x480 stretched to a 16x9 display. The background however is a higher quality unstretched video background. You can tell easily just by the text on how clear the text is when it's displayed in 720p compared to the 480i tivo menus.

David

[ilsie]

Hey, I'm a brand new S3 owner and I sort of stumbled on this thread after being totally shocked that the menus are all 4:3 stretched to 16:9 (even though the little TiVo dude in the corner is all fancy and hi def :P). I still dont seem to have received the 8.3 update... does this put the menus in HD?

I know it's not a huge deal, but it's sort of aggravating. Especially since the "TiVo video tours" videos all show perfectly hi def menus!

[riddick21]

its already HD. 720p to be exact.

[GoHokies!]

Yeah, but the text is still stretched. Hopefully Tivo will get it looking better.

[derspiess]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but does anyone know if Tivo will 'fix' the text/icon stretching? Given that practically all TivoHD/S3 users use a 16:9 display, I would think they'd accommodate that.

[rodalpho]

No, nobody knows.

[etsolow]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but does anyone know if Tivo will 'fix' the text/icon stretching? Given that practically all TivoHD/S3 users use a 16:9 display, I would think they'd accommodate that.
You'd think, wouldn't ya? Apparently it's not a particularly high priority for TiVo, Inc. A shame, I say.

[aaronwt]

You'd think, wouldn't ya? Apparently it's not a particularly high priority for TiVo, Inc. A shame, I say.

Does anyone really care? I know I don't. I spend 99.9% of the time watching the content on my TiVos, not the menus.

[DCIFRTHS]

Does anyone really care? I know I don't. I spend 99.9% of the time watching the content on my TiVos, not the menus.

It's not a high priority issue, but true HD menus would make the interface nicer. The only downside would be seeing the ad links in HD.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Does anyone really care?
Uh, have you actually READ this thread?!? :D

[etsolow]

Does anyone really care? I know I don't.
Well, if YOU don't care I guess no one could, right?? :rolleyes:

[aaronwt]

Well, if YOU don't care I guess no one could, right?? :rolleyes:


Of course!:D

I'm just happy to be able to use the S3/TiVoHD. Recording HD is so much easiier than what I was recording HD with back in 2001 to 2004. Then I got the DirecTV HDTiVo in May2004. And then the S3 in 2006 improved upon that.
To be honest I don't notice anything wrong with the menus. They look fine in my useage. I'm easily able to see all the titles and the functions. It does what it needs to do.
Maybe since I came from the DirecTV HDTiVo. The menus in the S3/TiVoHD look so much better than they did with the DirecTV HDTiVo.

[dswallow]

Of course!:D

I'm just happy to be able to use the S3/TiVoHD. Recording HD is so much easiier than what I was recording HD with back in 2001 to 2004. Then I got the DirecTV HDTiVo in May2004. And then the S3 in 2006 improved upon that.
To be honest I don't notice anything wrong with the menus. They look fine in my useage. I'm easily able to see all the titles and the functions. It does what it needs to do.
Maybe since I came from the DirecTV HDTiVo. The menus in the S3/TiVoHD look so much better than they did with the DirecTV HDTiVo.
What really disappoints me is knowing how much more info could be presented on a single screen and how much space is just wasted because they design it for those with 13" televisions to read rather than having come up with some flexibility in how the menu and guide content is presented onscreen to allow for people who have 50" or larger displays that don't need to worry about title-safe areas onscreen.

It's dramatic. I didn't really realize how until I was creating the Unbox on Demand application and supporting HD. After using that for just a few days going back to the TiVo menus felt like stepping back in time 20 years to the low resolution VGA era.

[MichaelK]

What really disappoints me is knowing how much more info could be presented on a single screen and how much space is just wasted because they design it for those with 13" televisions to read rather than having come up with some flexibility in how the menu and guide content is presented onscreen to allow for people who have 50" or larger displays that don't need to worry about title-safe areas onscreen.....


+1

[modnar]

What really disappoints me is knowing how much more info could be presented on a single screen and how much space is just wasted because they design it for those with 13" televisions to read rather than having come up with some flexibility in how the menu and guide content is presented onscreen to allow for people who have 50" or larger displays that don't need to worry about title-safe areas onscreen.
Another +1. I would love it if they offered several customizable text sizes so more could fit on screen for bigger televisions.

[byancey]

There seems to be two different types of people who have posted on this thread:


Those who care about the fact that the interface on their fancy new HD Tivo is essentially a stretched/scaled 4:3 interface.
Those who can't figure out why anyone would even care. :confused: :)
Apparently I fall into the first group. I just received my new HD Tivo yesterday, and I immediately noticed that the menu text looked stretched compared to my Tivo Series 1. I also noticed that there were far too many ovals where there should have been circles; a tale-tell sign of an aspect ratio mis-configuration. I spent the first few hours after the initial setup trying to figure out what setting I needed to change to get my HD Tivo to actually display HD menus. I finally noticed that the Tivo Guy was scaled correctly even though text and most other widgets were not, which led me to the conclusion that this was almost certainly intentional and there are no true 16:9 720p menus to be had. This thread confirmed that. :(

It's now almost 2009, and it looks like this issue has been around since the S3 was released back in 2006, so I think it's fair to say this hasn't been a high priority for Tivo (and perhaps rightly so considering some of the features I know were missing with the initial release). However, with 3 years gone by, I hope perhaps they are getting far enough down on the to-do list that we may see true 16:9 HD menus in a future software update. They somehow managed to get the menus right in the "Photo's and Slideshow" section, so Tivo has at least given this some thought. Although the appearance of the interface may not be the most critical aspect of owning an HD Tivo, it is part of the whole experience, and I would like to see a Tivo interface that can take full advantage of my HDTV.

In the mean time, I'd like to thank vman41 for his post earlier in this thread which suggested a way to get the Tivo menus to display in their "correct" 4:3 aspect ratio. Although I wish there was a true 16:9 HD interface, I find the black bars on the sides much less distracting than the stretched widgets and text.

If you tell the TiVo that you have a 'smart' screen (i.e. displays 480i/p in 4:3 and 720p/1080i in 16:9) and choose hybrid 720p for your output format, the menus output in 480p. Why would it do that if the menus were naturally 720p? I conclude that the menus are SD, like Cnet says. Things that have to overlay the HD video, like channel banners, may be at HD resolution.

[Bierboy]

I'm in the "who gives a crap" category. I've had an HD set for nearly six years now. I've had my S3 since the day they were released. I don't ever recall thinking "Gee, I sure wish I could see information on my screen (that has absolutely nothing to do with entertainment) in HD". It's beyond comprehension (mine, anyhow) that ANYONE would find this something worth spending so much time posting/arguing/dicussing here.

[byancey]

I'm in the "who gives a crap" category. I've had an HD set for nearly six years now. I've had my S3 since the day they were released. I don't ever recall thinking "Gee, I sure wish I could see information on my screen (that has absolutely nothing to do with entertainment) in HD". It's beyond comprehension (mine, anyhow) that ANYONE would find this something worth spending so much time posting/arguing/dicussing here.

This thread is nothing...ever seen a forum discussing the merits of movies broadcast in thier "Original Aspect Ratio" vs. movies "Formatted to to fit your TV screen". Those can get as brutal as any relgious crusade. :eek:

[Rob Helmerichs]

This thread is nothing...ever seen a forum discussing the merits of movies broadcast in thier "Original Aspect Ratio" vs. movies "Formatted to to fit your TV screen". Those can get as brutal as any relgious crusade. :eek:
But those are issues that affect the actual stuff we're watching, not the menu we use to choose what we watch.

Put me in the group of those baffled by this whole argument--I understand that people are passionate about it, but I cannot for the life of me understand why.

OAR, on the other hand, IS an important issue. And it is crucial that the heretics who are wrong on that issue be WIPED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH LEST THEIR POISON INFECT THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

Oh, did I say that out loud?

[MickeS]

Put me in the group of those baffled by this whole argument--I understand that people are passionate about it, but I cannot for the life of me understand why.

I wouldn't say I'm "passionate" about it, but I think it's pretty embarrassing for TiVo to STILL have to stretch 4:3 menus in their HD recorder box.

[drcos]

While I would also enjoy having customizable font/object sizes (how hard is that to implement?) so that I could see more ________ at once:
Programs in the 'Now Playing' list
Programs in the 'Search' window
The programs and the description in the Guide window
etc.

I understand that this is not a priority, and would probably cause more problems and confusion among the huddled masses, including but not limited to:
I don't like the default font size
I don't like the default image size
Help! My text is too small and I can't read it!
Help! My text is too large and has frightened my dog!

So I'm not holding my breath.
And you folks that "don't care" . . . . then why are you poking around this thread?

[astrohip]

There seems to be two different types of people who have posted on this thread:


Those who care about the fact that the interface on their fancy new HD Tivo is essentially a stretched/scaled 4:3 interface.
Those who can't figure out why anyone would even care. :confused: :)

Actually three types:
3) Those who resurrect four month old threads.



:D

[steveball]

I wouldn't say I'm "passionate" about it, but I think it's pretty embarrassing for TiVo to STILL have to stretch 4:3 menus in their HD recorder box.

I am passionate about this -- as a new 16:9 HDTV owner, this is embarassing and stupid. Do folks at TiVo consider this a prioriy? If not, why not?

16:9 is standard for flat panel televisions now -- and stretched fonts look ridiculous. I'm seriously considering returning my HDTV or moving back to a Media Center PC.

BTW, who cares whether this thread is old? The issue is real and still an ugly and obvious flaw.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I'm seriously considering returning my HDTV or moving back to a Media Center PC.
This just boggles my mind. I guess it's true what they say...it takes all kinds to populate a planet!

(Which is not a slam against you, just an acknowledgment that we think in seriously different ways...)

[Dancar]

Guess what? All your life, if you looked at the 35mm film used in movie theaters, you would see the wide screen image compressed into a 4:3 window. An anamorphic lens on the projector stretches the image to to a wide-screen aspect ratio.

So when are we going to get "true" wide screen movies?

My point is: The menu is not a photographic image, so why should anyone one care if one model of TiVo spreads it to 4:3 and another spreads it to 16:9? The purpose of the menu is to present information in an easily readable format and allow navagation through the software's features. I don't see why it matters if a graphic is perfectly round or an oval.

[MichaelK]

i dont much care and honestly must be blind becasue i dont see any ovals. But I have to admit that it just seems stupid that they use anything sd and dont just go all HD.

seems to me like they are looking for problems- you know like when nasa loses mars orbiters because one group is using ft and inches while another is working in meters. WHy not go all HD so there aren't different things going on thjat have to be reconciled?

[Dancar]

Because some people use HD Tivo with SD TVs.

[steveball]

This just boggles my mind. I guess it's true what they say...it takes all kinds to populate a planet!

(Which is not a slam against you, just an acknowledgment that we think in seriously different ways...)

My menus look stretch and pixelated, the fonts look jaggie and messy -- and yes, it bothers me that my new TV looks worse than my old TV. On my old 34" HDTV which I replaced with a 1080p 46" 120Hz waste of $$$, TiVo HD looked great at all times and in all modes. It also looked great with Windows Media Center whose menus scale properly even in Native or 1080i fixed mode. The fonts always look clean and crisp.

My fonts in the the TiVo guide look like crap to me. I find jaggies and blurry text on an expensive TV with this resolution from an HD source shocking and offensive.

Of course, it's not the end of the world, but it's a serious let down given I thought spending $$$ on the latest technology would deliver a better experience, and this is far worse than what I had before.

[dmbpj]

In the mean time, I'd like to thank vman41 for his post earlier in this thread which suggested a way to get the Tivo menus to display in their "correct" 4:3 aspect ratio. Although I wish there was a true 16:9 HD interface, I find the black bars on the sides much less distracting than the stretched widgets and text.Where can I find a way to do this. I don't care if I have black bars on the sides of the Tivo interface and I would rather have that than to have the menus and such stretched.

Besides, the comcast DVR I have is 4:3 anyway.

[Dancar]

Well, you could go to messages & settings and set the Output settings to 4:3 when you want to look at your Now Playing List or set up your ToDo list, then set it back to 16:9 when you've decided which show to watch.

Or you can just get over it ;)

[aindik]

Where can I find a way to do this. I don't care if I have black bars on the sides of the Tivo interface and I would rather have that than to have the menus and such stretched.

Besides, the comcast DVR I have is 4:3 anyway.

Change your "display type" to "4:3 smart screen" instead of "16:9." Then, set your Video Output Mode to Native or one of the hybrid modes.

That will send HD content in HD, SD content in real 4:3 SD (not TiVo's 480i designed to be stretched to 16:9 by the display and, when in panel mode, including black or grey bars in the signal), and TiVo menus in SD 4:3.

Downside is, you won't be able to use the TiVo's Aspect Radio controls for 4:3 stuff. If you want to zoom a 4:3 letterboxed show, you'll need to use your TV for that.

[ciper]

I would like adjustable font sizes for the Tivo menus which would automatically adjust the amount of data shown. Even my ancient low end cell phone with grayscale screen does this.

I guess Tivo thinks watching low res videos of people falling off bikes (youtube) is more important :(

[aindik]

I changed my setting to 4:3 smartscreen from 16:9 last night because of this thread. Not sure I like the menus unstretched because I'm so used to them being stretched after all this time (I've had my TiVoHD for a year). But one benefit of doing that is that SD content looks remarkably better now in native. Like, way better.

I think it's because, in 16:9, native, panel setting, TiVo takes the 4:3 content and adds black bars to it, which means (far) less bandwidth for the actual content in the 480i stream it sends to the TV. Basically the opposite of what an anamorphic DVD does. In 16:9 native mode, 480i content looked absolutely abysmal. Jaggies everywhere. I used to use a fixed mode because SD looked so awful in native mode (where, for 480i, native ain't really native - it's altered by the TiVo to insert black bars). I used to think my TV was bad at SD upscaling. Apparently not.

In 4:3 smartscreen mode, the TiVo thinks the TV is 4:3, so no black bar inserts necessary. The whole 480i signal is now devoted to the content ("Native" is apparently only truly Native in 4:3 smartscreen mode). The result is much cleaner. My TV capably provides the black bars, and is smart enough to remember separate aspect ratio settings for SD versus HD content on the same input: "4:3" for SD, and "Just Scan" for HD.

The only problem is that the TiVo's aspect ratio controls don't work in this mode (understandably so - it's only providing a 4:3 image). So, if I want to zoom an SD letterboxed show, I have to use my TV's controls. Which would be fine, except on my TV (Samsung 4671F), both of the zoom modes cut too much off the top and bottom, so that some of the actual content is missing in addition to the letterboxes. So, still evaluating this versus just sticking with a fixed mode and stretched out menu text.

Also, I think the menu for the new Netflix app is actually in HD (or, at least, formatted for 16:9), but in 4:3 smartscreen mode it displays in 480i.

[MichaelK]

Because some people use HD Tivo with SD TVs.

sure but as they are likely in a the minority and that percentage will only shrink over time- then it would makesense that the native flavor was HD and you got covnerted output on your SD tv.

[Resist]

It's now almost 2009, and it looks like this issue has been around since the S3 was released back in 2006, so I think it's fair to say this hasn't been a high priority for Tivo (and perhaps rightly so considering some of the features I know were missing with the initial release). However, with 3 years gone by, I hope perhaps they are getting far enough down on the to-do list that we may see true 16:9 HD menus in a future software update.When Tivo....when will you get rid of the ovals!!!!!? It is a simple software fix for crying out loud.

I long for the day when all TV content is wide screen and in HD. Also, TV's need to be less complex and more simple like they used to be 30 years ago. On/Off, Volume and channel.......not S-Video, composite, component, DVI, HDMI, aspect, SD, 480i, 480P, 720P, 1080i and 1080P. No wonder older folks can't figure out or tell if there new wide screen TV is showing HD or the proper aspect ratio.

[ciper]

When Tivo....when will you get rid of the ovals!!!!!? It is a simple software fix for crying out loud.
LEAVE TIVO ALONE! They are busy creating software to let us order pizza and watch youtube for petes sake!

[JimboG]

LEAVE TIVO ALONE! They are busy creating software to let us order pizza and watch youtube for petes sake!

No, they're writing software to let you order crappy pizza. At least if I could order Papa John's or some decent local pizza from my Tivo it would be a value-add. Guess I'll have to reach for the cell phone instead.:p

On the other hand, I do appreciate all of the hard work that Tivo's programmers did to enable Netflix streaming! This really adds to the value that I get out of both Tivo and Netflix.:up::up::up:

[Resist]

I do appreciate all of the hard work that Tivo's programmers did to enable Netflix streaming!Oh you mean the NetFlix on Tivo that always stops or won't rewind properly, unlike the NetFlix on my XBox which works perfectly.

[Dancar]

How can you possibly enjoy Netflix streaming when the TiVo menu still has those ovals?

[aindik]

The menu doesn't have to have ovals. I've gotten rid of them by telling the TiVo that I have a 4:3 Smart Screen TV and set the output resolution to Native. Now, it sends the menus in 480i. Unstretched fonts and circles instead of ovals. (And, of course, black bars on the sides.)

I think I might have to change this setting when I use Netflix streaming, but I haven't tried it enough to know for sure.

[Resist]

Using Native on my TV make the screen all crazy between channel changes.

[rainwater]

Using Native on my TV make the screen all crazy between channel changes.

That has nothing to do with TiVo and certainly nothing to do with HD menus. It just means your tv is slow at resolution changes.

[Resist]

Yea my 61" wide screen Samsung DLP TV is old by today's standard and cost me $4,000 5 years ago. For HiDef it only has 3 component inputs, 2 are 480P/720P/1080i and one is 480i/480P input. I use the 480P/720P/1080i input all the time. The TV has a nice Panoramic mode that stretches only the sides of the picture, but I can't use it with the this input, only in the 480i/480P input. So I am stuck with side bars on non wide screen content. If only Tivo had a more screen options. Better yet, I need a new TV, now to convince the women of the house of this. :)

[aaronwt]

I used to use those Panoramic modes(that stretches the sides) in 2001 and early 2002. But since 2002 I've just watched the content in the original aspect ratio. I couldn't stand seeing the picture distorted any more.
And every time I see a TV now, whether fully stretched or stretched on the sides, I just cringe because it looks so bad.

[Resist]

Well Samsung DLP's used a very good Panoramic stretch mode. You couldn't tell it was stretched unless the screen had a ticker tape on it. It was so much better than Tivo's full mode.

[aaronwt]

Well Samsung DLP's used a very good Panoramic stretch mode. You couldn't tell it was stretched unless the screen had a ticker tape on it. It was so much better than Tivo's full mode.

I can still see that it stretched since when a person gets near the edge they would become obscenely fat.(Plus any object near the edge is obviously streteched too)
But everyone has their own preference when viewing content. That's what the mutiple viewing options are for.