Top HDTV-specific features you want? [Text View]

bkdtv

09-09-2006, 01:30 PM

Let's make a list...and then vote!

Channel mapping of unencrypted local networks on cable (QAM) without a CableCard.

Option to passthrough all picture formats in native resolution.

HDTV-only Wishlists -- make this an option you can add to any wishlist, not merely a category in itself.

Menus and graphics designed to take advantage of high-definition and widescreen -- i.e. no stretched SD graphics.

Real-time display of video resolution (i.e. 720p), audio format (i.e. DD5.1) and program bit rate (i.e. 16.2 Mbps) for current channel.

Display of program resolution and average program bit rate on program information screen in Now Playing.

HD aspect modes including zoom, crop, and stretch for SD channels.

Easy access to OTA DTV/HDTV signal meter to optimize antenna reception.

Support in Tivo Desktop for streaming WMV, Quicktime, and .TS files.

Windows Media Connect / PlayForSure support to support streaming of all media content from Media Player in Windows Vista.

What other Series3 DTV/HDTV specific features do you want?

Gregor

09-09-2006, 01:39 PM

Shouldn't we have been asking for these all along?

As long as it records HD, that's pretty much enough for me :)

JohnBrowning

09-09-2006, 02:00 PM

Smell-o-vision!

HomieG

09-09-2006, 03:20 PM

Great list. If it could make coffee, and bring in booze and hookers, then it would be perfect :)

subspace100

09-09-2006, 03:30 PM

Sepia

09-09-2006, 03:49 PM

Great list bktv, but I am more concerned about my minimum requirements, and am hoping they are met, namely:

1. Same features as Series 2 at the very least
2. Fast processor, more RAM, to make menus more speedy

The others are given (dual tuner, HDTV, cablecard etc...).

But I truely hope (1) and (2) above are a reality for the series 3.

- Sepia

classicsat

09-09-2006, 03:55 PM

Manual QAM mapping. I'd want it, but I don't think that would be a a feature TiVo would include, at least as an up-front feature.

Video resoution. Perhaps only the vertical resolution. DD5.1 maybe. Bitrate, likely not, as that doesn't matter to most users.

Digital signal meter, perhaps in a setup screen.

WMC would require further licensing, if the hardware is capable.

generalpatton71

09-09-2006, 05:27 PM

I'd love the bit rate feature but I doubt we'll get it. So many of our local channels are compressing there signal now. A bit rate monitor would allow us to yell at them and point out other locals have higher numbers. There is a need for a better OTA signal meter. The HR10-250 makes you go into settings and stop recording everything to see your OTA signal strength.

greg_burns

09-09-2006, 05:32 PM

2. Fast processor, more RAM, to make menus more speedy

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/
We have a few details as well, the Series 3 seems to be very speedy...

:up:

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 06:36 PM

my picks
#1 - zoom, crop, sd
#2 - MP4 playback support in tivo desktop.
#3 - quicktime, wmv, plays for sure etc for tivo desktop
#4- real time bit rate and all that

bkdtv

09-09-2006, 06:41 PM

WMC would require further licensing, if the hardware is capable.
PlayForSure costs essentially nothing. Windows Media Connect (WMC) costs nothing, afaik. Unlike Apple, which limits who can license their DRM, Microsoft DRM can be licensed by just about anyone.

I believe VC-1 (WM9) and MPEG-4 (Quicktime) licensing fees were already paid by Broadcom, so there shouldn't be any cost for Tivo to support those formats.

The primary cost is in the software implementation, i.e. R&D.

Video resoution. Perhaps only the vertical resolution. DD5.1 maybe. Bitrate, likely not, as that doesn't matter to most usersI'd love the bit rate feature but I doubt we'll get it. So many of our local channels are compressing there signal now. A bit rate monitor would allow us to yell at them and point out other locals have higher numbers.Content bit rate is a feature you see on all the PC HDTV players, including Vista Media Center.

This feature is great because it allows you to diagnose who is responsible for picture quality issues. If your picture has pixelization, macroblocking, or the signal seems to be lacking detail, you can check the bit rate and complain to your broadcaster or cable provider if it's too low. You can directly compare the bit rate for network HD feeds from off-air and cable to see how much your cable provider is degrading the signal. This feature also allows customers with multiple providers (say FiOS and Comcast) to better compare the quality of the high-definition cable signals in their area.

If Tivo doesn't incorporate this feature, I guarantee there are going to be customers who blame the Tivo for PQ issues that are being caused by something the broadcaster or cable provider is doing to their signal.

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 07:04 PM

sorry - I dont quite inderstand codecs and all- so trying to learn-

Aren't the MP# decoders bascically open standards so no one needs to pay a fee for that?

Dont you just pay if you use someone's encoder- like if you encode with quicktime?

So wouldn't MP4 playback be free?

That said- how do all the versions of MP4 work? Can an MP4 player with enough power to decond HD MP4, automatically play all the opther MP4 types like quicktime, divx, the version on cell phones, etc, etc

I thought I read MS made free licenses availible for VC-1 so that they could become a viable choice for blue laser disc encoding?

bkdtv

09-09-2006, 07:12 PM

Aren't the MP# decoders bascically open standards so no one needs to pay a fee for that?
Unfortunately, no. All these formats -- MPEG-2, MPEG-4 (Quicktime), VC-1 (WM9), etc -- have licensing costs. If Tivo were to decode these formats using a software decoder, they would have to pay the license fees. However, Broadcom incorporates hardware decoders in all their recent chips, so there is nothing left for Tivo to pay.

I thought I read MS made free licenses availible for VC-1 so that they could become a viable choice for blue laser disc encoding?
VC-1 licenses are currently free for certain types of content like non-pay-to-view Internet streams. The licensing cost for a VC-1 hardware decoder (like the Broadcom chip in the Series3) is free for the first 100,000 units, and $0.20 per after the first 100,000. You can read the full details on the VC-1 licensing terms right here (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11741).
hat said- how do all the versions of MP4 work? Can an MP4 player with enough power to decond HD MP4, automatically play all the opther MP4 types like quicktime, divx, the version on cell phones, etc, etc
Yes. Essentially, one license for MPEG-4 lets you play everything, Quicktime included. You can find full details on MPEG-4 licensing costs right here (http://www.vialicensing.com/products/mpeg4aac/license.terms.html).

doormat

09-09-2006, 07:48 PM

Another vote for the digital signal strength meter. Current resolution (720p, 1080i/p) along with DD5.1 indicator would be nice.

While its not an HDTV specific feature, I would like an internet browser inside my TiVo. Compile Firefox for MIPS and put it in there. That with a wireless keyboard and mouse :D :D imagine PIP where you have your webbrowser on half of your big screen and the TV show is on the other half.

greg_burns

09-09-2006, 07:52 PM

Current resolution (720p, 1080i/p) along with DD5.1 indicator would be nice.

Pretty sure it already does the 720p/1080i indicator on the front.
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/RAW/Series3-front-1.JPG

CCourtney

09-09-2006, 07:53 PM

I guess this isn't HDTV-specific, but I would like CableCard 2.0 capability or upgradability. This way, SDV would not be a problem. I know the Series3 will not have this, but it is a feature I would want...

Don't worry about it not being HDTV specific. There's not an item on the list that is HDTV specific ;)

But this would be an item to ADD to the S3's 'Digital Receiving - Specific' wish list

CCourtney

doormat

09-09-2006, 07:56 PM

I thought CC2 was a breakout box option? Rumors were that you put the bottom CC slot into PCMCIA mode, and then a breakout box to a seperate unit that has the necessary hardware with the CC2 capabilities (including SDV, maybe).

skanter

09-09-2006, 07:57 PM

Couldn't care less about OTA -- I use cable.

All I care about is:

1. Does cablecard work?

2. Is the sysytem reliable?

3. Is the recording lossless.

Period.

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 08:05 PM

Gregor

09-09-2006, 08:07 PM

Couldn't care less about OTA -- I use cable.

All I care about is:

1. Does cablecard work?

2. Is the sysytem reliable?

3. Is the recording lossless.

Period.

Recording is supposed to be lossless, recorded as it comes in.

doormat

09-09-2006, 08:10 PM

wow that would be neat- where did you hear that?
Here (I think it was here) in some other thread. I cant remember what thread it was, nor were searches fruitful.

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 08:12 PM

Unfortunately, no. All these formats -- MPEG-2, MPEG-4 (Quicktime), VC-1 (WM9), etc -- have licensing costs. If Tivo were to decode these formats using a software decoder, they would have to pay the license fees. However, Broadcom incorporates hardware decoders in all their recent chips, so there is nothing left for Tivo to pay.

VC-1 licenses are currently free for certain types of content like non-pay-to-view Internet streams. The licensing cost for a VC-1 hardware decoder (like the Broadcom chip in the Series3) is free for the first 100,000 units, and $0.20 per after the first 100,000. You can read the full details on the VC-1 licensing terms right here (http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11741).

Yes. Essentially, one license for MPEG-4 lets you play everything, Quicktime included. You can find full details on MPEG-4 licensing costs right here (http://www.vialicensing.com/products/mpeg4aac/license.terms.html).

thanks for the info.

so who is getting the MPEG license fees? Do the MPEG/ISO people collect it and use it to fund those groups?

seems the vialicensing people are just a clearing house?

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 08:18 PM

Here (I think it was here) in some other thread. I cant remember what thread it was, nor were searches fruitful.

the only mention i found was this:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4196505&&#post4196505

And you're not getting me. One of the requirements of the CableCARD 2.0 specification is that the host must have an active FireWire port. So if TiVo is going to get certified by Cable Labs to use a CableCARD 2.0 POD then they have to have an active FireWire port. The only external bus on the S3 with the bandwidth necessary to support FireWire is the CableCARD slot, which is technically a PCMCIA slot. If the hardware is designed in such a way that the main CPU can communicate with the CableCARD slot as if it were a standard PCMCIA slot, then a breakout box with the FireWire port and required DOCSIS modem would be possible. However if not then there is no way TiVo could add a FireWire port, and in turn the could never get the CableCARD 2.0 certification required for use of the bidirectional communication portion of the spec. It's all or nothing. Without a FireWire port the S3 will never be able to do any of the CableCARD 2.0 stuff.

Dan

sounds to me that Dan was just making up a hypothetical solution and wasn't based on anything.

kb7oeb

09-09-2006, 08:39 PM

I think they will want a 1394 firewire port eventually, I think when HD optical disc recorders come out they will probably use 1394 to record.

MichaelK

09-09-2006, 08:48 PM

i dont know why it's not included in the current S3...

should have had firewire and the docsis modem in my mind.

if even "for future use" it at least would have future proofed the darn thing...

jsmeeker

09-10-2006, 12:20 AM

MPEG-4 is not a Quicktime codec. Quicktime is a container file format, created by Apple. A Quicktime file can contain video that's uses MPEG4 format. Other container files (like AVI) can contain video using an MPEG4 codec.

moyekj

09-10-2006, 03:25 AM

generalpatton71

09-10-2006, 11:38 AM

Couldn't care less about OTA -- I use cable.

All I care about is:

1. Does cablecard work?

2. Is the sysytem reliable?

3. Is the recording lossless.

Period.

You will care if you have a Sinclair local. Sinclair wants cash for carriage almost all cable co's say no. My cable company has NBC and CBS in HD but everything else local will be OTA.

Content bit rate is a feature you see on all the PC HDTV players, including Vista Media Center.

This feature is great because it allows you to diagnose who is responsible for picture quality issues. If your picture has pixelization, macroblocking, or the signal seems to be lacking detail, you can check the bit rate and complain to your broadcaster or cable provider if it's too low. You can directly compare the bit rate for network HD feeds from off-air and cable to see how much your cable provider is degrading the signal. This feature also allows customers with multiple providers (say FiOS and Comcast) to better compare the quality of the high-definition cable signals in their area.

If Tivo doesn't incorporate this feature, I guarantee there are going to be customers who blame the Tivo for PQ issues that are being caused by something the broadcaster or cable provider is doing to their signal.

I agree it's a great feature and I'd love for it to be hidden in tivo somewhere. I've considered adding some PC OTA hardware to simply get this feature. I want to be able to take a screen capture and a bit rate number and email it to my local OTA eng and say "This is what a 12mb bit rate looks like in 1080i!!!".

vman41

09-10-2006, 02:26 PM

Pretty sure it already does the 720p/1080i indicator on the front.
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/RAW/Series3-front-1.JPG

On most receivers I've seen, the panel indicates the output format, not the format of the stream being decoded. The on-screen status display usually indicates if the received signal is and HD format, but not which one.

On my tuners, HD input formats can't be zoomed, which is annoying when the local station is upconverting a letterboxed program (the non-HD subchannels let you zoom and fill the screen.

greg_burns

09-10-2006, 02:39 PM

On most receivers I've seen, the panel indicates the output format, not the format of the stream being decoded. The on-screen status display usually indicates if the received signal is and HD format, but not which one.

I bet you're right. I wonder it that "Format" button on the front display (you can see it if you look closely at the picture (http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/RAW/Series3-front-1.JPG)) allows you to toggle that output format.

MichaelK

09-10-2006, 04:41 PM

Well, if the question is what I would want, not necessarily what I can get then my top 2 desired features are ReplayTV playback features Tivo has never had:
1. Automatic commercial advance
2. Jump to anywhere in a program instantly or any minutes ahead or back

Didn't even replay give up on #1. Weren't the lawsuits involved with that one of the major reasons they went bankrupt?

If so I dont think you'll see that again on a mass marketed consumer device anytime soon.

btwyx

09-10-2006, 06:55 PM

I bet you're right. I wonder it that "Format" button on the front display (you can see it if you look closely at the picture (http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/RAW/Series3-front-1.JPG)) allows you to toggle that output format.If it works like the HR10-250, and I bet it does, the button will toggle the output format, and the display tells you what the output format is.

wmcbrine

09-10-2006, 07:33 PM

Here's what I want: a built-in Zoom mode for letterboxed 480i material, that would work while upconverting. Currently I have to switch my HR10-250 to 480i output, change the inputs on the TV, toggle off the Tivo's pillarboxing, and zoom on the TV. (Plus turn on the VCR, because I have the s-video routed through there. The DVI input doesn't work with 480i.) If I could get that down to one button on the remote, that would be sweet.

Even better would be if it were adjustable, so that I could zoom a 14:9 letterboxed program out part way, but zoom a 16:9 program all the way. Better still would be if it happened automatically (having the Tivo recognize the letterbox bars), but I'm not sure that's practical.

I'd also like a simple toggle for closed captions. I only want them now and then (for a line of dialogue I can't make out); but on the HR10-250, the toggle is buried deep in the menus, so I never use it. I'm listing this as an HDTV-specific feature because HD captions are different -- they're rendered by the Tivo instead of the display, and so the menu toggle is the only way to get them to come on. (TVs often have a one-button caption toggle on the remote, but that doesn't help for HD programs.)

Lastly I'd like some more options for the pillarboxes: White (to help correct my burned-in set), and maybe a kind of "echo" mode, as used on some upconverted material during HD programs, where part of the main image is copied to the sides.

HDTiVo

09-10-2006, 09:17 PM

High quality scaler to 1080i or 720p HDMI or component out.

smak

09-11-2006, 03:52 AM

On this box I would actually like some kind of space meter. Not space remaining, just something that shows hours of HD recorded, and hours of SD. If that's possible.

With my current HD PVR, suggestions is not the greatest way to tell this, because i'll have like 40 suggestions, and think i have a ton of space, but then 4 hours of HD may record one night, and it's full. It's hard to tell when 1 hour of programming can take up a big difference in space.

-smak-

bdraw

09-11-2006, 03:34 PM

HD only Wish lists and/or suggestions.
Nothing worse than tons of SD programming clogging up your TiVo.

mattn2

09-11-2006, 03:54 PM

HD only Wish lists and/or suggestions.
Nothing worse than tons of SD programming clogging up your TiVo.

After #1 and #2 in post #1 (QAM remap & native passthru), this is the most necessary item needed. Having a wishlist to catch a show in HD and getting its SD counterpart (lower channel number takes priority) is so not what this recorder is for.

# Matt

btwyx

09-11-2006, 03:57 PM

btwyx

09-11-2006, 03:58 PM

HD only Wish lists and/or suggestions.Certainly it'd be really useful to add HDTV only to any wishlist. You can set any wish list to have Audio Video/HDTV, but then you can't have any other category. So you can't do <favorite football team> and live and HDTV.

Bierboy

09-11-2006, 04:26 PM

...If people are wondering why I record SD on an HD TiVo, part of the WAF is that there is only one box to do everything, it has to be able to do SD. 100 hours of SD barely puts a dent in the storage on mine.I hear that....I've been trying to sell my better half on keeping our S2 and using it in the bedroom to replace the V-C-R (!) when we get the S3. Then the S3 only adds $6.95/month to our bill. But she's not buying it (yet).

talmania

09-11-2006, 07:55 PM

High quality scaler to 1080i or 720p HDMI or component out.

I'd prefer that the S3 can do a native format output (anyone know if it can?) where my dedicated processor/scaler can handle it. No way the processing/scaler in a Tivo can match what's available in the marketplace today.

mfogarty5

09-11-2006, 08:11 PM

I'd prefer that the S3 can do a native format output (anyone know if it can?) where my dedicated processor/scaler can handle it. No way the processing/scaler in a Tivo can match what's available in the marketplace today.

I agree. that includes the ability to output 480i over HDMI so that the processor can de-interlace and scale. A lot of devices will not output 480i over HDMI, they convert it to 480p first.

moyekj

09-11-2006, 08:38 PM

I'd prefer that the S3 can do a native format output (anyone know if it can?) where my dedicated processor/scaler can handle it. No way the processing/scaler in a Tivo can match what's available in the marketplace today. Native passthrough was one of the output options in the specs (I believe back from Tivo Pony/megazone CES demo) along with 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i so that should be sufficient to satisfy all needs.

talmania

09-11-2006, 08:38 PM

Native passthrough was one of the output options in the specs along with 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i so that should be sufficient to satisfy all needs.

Awesome--thank you!!

MichaelK

09-11-2006, 09:07 PM

I always wanted it to be smarter when deleting programs. If you've run out of space, recording one HD program could delete 10 or more SD programs. Recording a football game in HD could delete 4 pages of SD programs.

My thoughts on this are that it could be told to partition itself between HD and SD, so it keeps separate parts of its drive for SD and HD. Or it could be told to preferentially delete HD when recording HD.

If people are wondering why I record SD on an HD TiVo, part of the WAF is that there is only one box to do everything, it has to be able to do SD. 100 hours of SD barely puts a dent in the storage on mine.

Not sure that makes sense.

Should SD tivo's search for 2 hours movies to delete before deleting four 30 minute sitcoms?

I like that it's clear as day looking at the NPL what's getting nuked next. I dont want to have to look at the last screen of NOL and try and figure out if it will delete the bottom 6 or skip up to item 7 and delete that or if it will skip item 1 and 2 then skip 3-6 and then nail 7 or whatever.

just my opinion though.

WIth MRV though, your wife can have her SD tivo and you can get the S3 for yourself-LOL

MichaelK

09-11-2006, 09:10 PM

Certainly it'd be really useful to add HDTV only to any wishlist. You can set any wish list to have Audio Video/HDTV, but then you can't have any other category. So you can't do <favorite football team> and live and HDTV.

real world it's not so terrible for sports- currently on the HD directivos you can do "team at" and Show typ/HD and nail it. While SD nails replays at 3 am and othe crap, HD so far seems to be uncluttered and only has the games. (so far..)

Works for Baseball and football at least for now...

Longer term I think they need to figure that out.

smak

09-11-2006, 09:25 PM

I believe the wishlists are different on directv tivos and regular tivo's.

As far as I remember, there is no "Show Type" wish list on regular tivo's.

So you can't even search audio/video or hdtv, or what i do a lot, "season premiere" and "premiere"

-smak-

btwyx

09-11-2006, 09:41 PM

currently on the HD directivos you can do "team at" and Show typ/HD and nail it. Then D* turns on a Sunday Ticket channel I don't get and I'm recording a blank pre-game show in glorious HD, not the football match. Its happened to me. That's why I want to have all the functions of a regular wishlist, and say "only HD" as well.

btwyx

09-11-2006, 09:45 PM

Not sure that makes sense.It makes sense to me, having lived with a mixed HD/SD TiVo for over 2 yearsShould SD tivo's search for 2 hours movies to delete before deleting four 30 minute sitcoms?I don't see why, but its not the same thing.

With HD, you suddenly have programs which are "heavier" (for want of a better word) than others. If you don't manage your now playing list correctly, one HD recording can run rampant through the whole thing

MichaelK

09-12-2006, 12:14 PM

Then D* turns on a Sunday Ticket channel I don't get and I'm recording a blank pre-game show in glorious HD, not the football match. Its happened to me. That's why I want to have all the functions of a regular wishlist, and say "only HD" as well.

Yup- you need to wipe out all the sunday ticket and extra innings channels from channels you receive

MichaelK

09-12-2006, 12:16 PM

It makes sense to me, having lived with a mixed HD/SD TiVo for over 2 yearsI don't see why, but its not the same thing.

With HD, you suddenly have programs which are "heavier" (for want of a better word) than others. If you don't manage your now playing list correctly, one HD recording can run rampant through the whole thing

I guess for me i'd prefer that HD run rampant.

but i guess to each his own....