For S3 will a cablecard be required to receive/record HD network channels?

[theone]

I currently have basic cable with TWC. This entitles me to receive the main network channels in HD (ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, FOX, etc) without needing a cable box. My HD plasma has a built in HD Tuner. I have the cable going directly from the wall to my tv and get crystal clear HD channels.

If I purchase an S3 Tivo, will this new tivo suddenly require me to get a cablecard from TWC to receive the same HD channels that I already have? My TV also has a cable card input and I have not had to use that currently.

I do not plan to use\view "premium" HD channels such as espn hd, hbo hd, etc.

[elrcastor]

no, you should be able to do the same thing with the S3

[bubba1972]

What channel numbers are your HD networks broadcast on? Mine come through on channels 782, 784, and 785, so I don't think my TV will decode them by itself, although I have never tried.

[theone]

I have a list at home. Its like 79.1, 88.1, 92.1, etc.

[terryfoster]

This question has been discussed in several threads. The answer is "we don't know." TiVo says they will "require" a CableCARD while some believe that the TiVo will just tune in the unencrypted QAM channels and have a manual mapping system to assign program data to the channel.

So, you'll just have to wait until the S3 is released and somebody tries it for you.

[CCourtney]

It's unclear if this capability will be available. It would require you to be able to manually map the QAM Channels. There's an FAQ that basically says that CC will be required to access HD Digital Channels, but this could be a blanket statement since the majority of those channels are encyrpted.

IMHO there's not enough info out there to be able to determine if the box will be able to tune QAM Clear and Free channels w/o a CableCARD.

A statement either way may be incorrect.

CCourtney

[lessd]

I currently have basic cable with TWC. This entitles me to receive the main network channels in HD (ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, FOX, etc) without needing a cable box. My HD plasma has a built in HD Tuner. I have the cable going directly from the wall to my tv and get crystal clear HD channels.

If I purchase an S3 Tivo, will this new tivo suddenly require me to get a cablecard from TWC to receive the same HD channels that I already have? My TV also has a cable card input and I have not had to use that currently.

I do not plan to use\view "premium" HD channels such as espn hd, hbo hd, etc.

Are the HD channels you receive exactly the same as you would tune to if you did have a HD Cable box ? if yes than maybe the Series 3 will work without a CC (but I don't think so), if not the Series 3 will require the cable card for sure.
From the TiVo web sight

Will my Series3 HD work with my cable company?
The TiVo Series3 HD will work with all major cable providers. In order to receive HD Digital channels, you will require (1) or (2) CableCARDs. Without CableCARDs, you will still be able to receive standard definition analog channels.

[gastrof]

It would make sense that if a regular HD OTA tuner can be plugged into cable and receive such channels in the QAM format, that the Series 3 should be able to.

Why wouldn't it?

Doesn't it have an ordinary OTA HD tuner?

Or does it have a very OLD one (like my STB :( ) that can't deal with QAM? (I tried it again on my cable feed recently...NOTHING.)

Seems to me that'd be the only reason the Series 3 wouldn't be able to get them. If its tuner is ancient.

[jfh3]

You will be able to receive them and record them.

Whether you will be able to map all of them and fully use the Tivo interface is the subject of much debate in other threads (QAM mapping).

[gastrof]

Are the HD channels you receive exactly the same as you would tune to if you did have a HD Cable box ? if yes than maybe the Series 3 will work without a CC (but I don't think so)...

My understanding is that cable companies don't use the same type of digital encoding as you'd find being transmitted thru the airwaves, even on OTA digital channels.

This is why older OTA STBs canNOT get any digital channels when hooked into cable, whereas newer OTA STBs can.

The newer ones can understand the "QAM" digital style used by the cable companies. and can get the OTA digital channels the cable company carries.

[kb7oeb]

OTA uses 8VSB while cable uses QAM. Many digital tv tuners support both. I think tivo might require the CC to map channels just so they don't have deal with support issues because the cable company might move the real RF channel without notice.

[CCourtney]

My understanding is that cable companies don't use the same type of digital encoding as you'd find being transmitted thru the airwaves, even on OTA digital channels.

This is why older OTA STBs canNOT get any digital channels when hooked into cable, whereas newer OTA STBs can.

The newer ones can understand the "QAM" digital style used by the cable companies. and can get the OTA digital channels the cable company carries.

They don't Digital cable is QAM, ATSC (OTA) is 8VSB. Apples and Oranges wrt modulation.

CCourtney

[George Cifranci]

You will be able to receive them and record them.

Whether you will be able to map all of them and fully use the Tivo interface is the subject of much debate in other threads (QAM mapping).


Here in Columbus Ohio we can't get the HD ABC and FOX channels. Sinclair Broadcasting here in Coumbus who owns them wants TW to pay extra for the HD channels. TW refuses to pay them, so the only option I have currrently is to receive the the ABC and FOX HD channels with an antenna. That isn't a problem as I get those channels just fine with my antenna connected to my Sony SXRD HDTV. I assume once I get a Series 3 that I will be able to just plug in the antenna and be able to record those channels over the air. I plan on getting 2 CableCards as well? How does that work? Do you tell the Tivo which channels come from the antenna? After that is it pretty much seemless as far as recording goes?

[generalpatton71]

Here in Columbus Ohio we can't get the HD ABC and FOX channels. Sinclair Broadcasting here in Coumbus who owns them wants TW to pay extra for the HD channels. TW refuses to pay them, so the only option I have currrently is to receive the the ABC and FOX HD channels with an antenna. That isn't a problem as I get those channels just fine with my antenna connected to my Sony SXRD HDTV. I assume once I get a Series 3 that I will be able to just plug in the antenna and be able to record those channels over the air. I plan on getting 2 CableCards as well? How does that work? Do you tell the Tivo which channels come from the antenna? After that is it pretty much seemless as far as recording goes?

No worries dude Tivo will handle all this for you! Just plug in everything where it tells you and I'm sure you won't have any issue. I'm sure tivo will scan for ota channels and then you can tell it the ones you "receive" and the ones you don't. Then when the QAM does it's thing you just repeat the process.

[Gene S]

This is for my area of TWC, so this might not apply to you.
We have a very helpful and informative TWC rep in our local area on AVS. Recently the subject of cable card and QAMS's in relation to just basic cable came up, this was the response.


1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.
2. If you are viewing HD Broadcast signals via this manner on TWC, please realize we are not supporting the HD Broadcast viewing. You are paying for 2-13 analog and that is what we are supporting. There is no promise you will get all HD Broadcast signals and there is no promise that if you get them that way today, you will always receive them via this method.
3. TWC engineering can (and does) move the QAMs for technical benefits within the headend. They don't tell me, we don't notify consumers. So if you are depending on viewing in this manner and tune into the season finale of 24 or some such and the signal has been moved from the QAM... then that's the risk you are taking by depending on your HD Broadcast channels in this manner.
4. TWC may in the future scramble the HD Broadcast signals - I'm not saying we will, I'm just saying right now - today - this second, its easier from a technical standpoint to have these channels in the clear but there could conceivably be some reason to change this procedure.

[jfh3]

This is for my area of TWC, so this might not apply to you.
We have a very helpful and informative TWC rep in our local area on AVS. Recently the subject of cable card and QAMS's in relation to just basic cable came up, this was the response.

Pretty sure someone over at avs debunked this response as FUD and half-truth.

[Jazhuis]

Pretty sure someone over at avs debunked this response as FUD and half-truth.

They tried to debunk it, but it still seems to come down to the fact that the FCC rules are vague enough for the providers to make truck-sized loopholes in them. It doesn't help that the FCC hasn't (won't?) made a definitive ruling.

<rant>I love how the FCC seems to have a spine when it comes to telling me what is appropriate to see on my television, but when it comes to enforcing their own rules on the broadcasters, they can't seem to grow a pair.</rant>

Although the sniping between the TWC rep and the Dish Network engineer in that AVS thread was priceless. ;)

[aaronwt]

SO will you need two cable cards to record off HBO and Showtime simultaneously?

[aaronwt]

Nevermind. I see an answer was posted in the other thread. They said that I will need two cable cards to record two encrypted channels. That means I could need up to 6 cablecards. How much do they usually charge a month for these? I have Comcast in my area.

[bkdtv]

Nevermind. I see an answer was posted in the other thread. They said that I will need two cable cards to record two encrypted channels. That means I could need up to 6 cablecards. How much do they usually charge a month for these? I have Comcast in my area.
On Comcast, the first outlet is free with the digital subscription. For additional CableCards, you're looking at anywhere from $1.20 to $3.50 per CableCard, depending on your particular Comcast division.

Note you only need one multistream CableCard to record two encrypted digital channels. Comcast expects to stock multistream CableCards in late October or November.

[kb7oeb]

Our cable system recently started doing digital simulcast. When they first started doing it only the local channels were in the clear with and SD and an HD version. A few months later they removed the encryption on the basic package channels. If you subscribe to basic cable you get 2-22 + 96-99 and now those mirrors are in the clear. In that range is some cable only stuff like cspan and TBS.

Now I thought there was a rule that the basic package can not be scrambled, my guess is my local company also takes that to mean that the digital version also needs to be in the clear.

[SNJpage1]

According to comcasts FAQ's about cable cards you will need one of their cable cards to get the HD channels. However, at this time the cable cards are only one way so you will not be able to receive the ON DEMAND programs or PAY PER VIEW programs.

[classicsat]

Nevermind. I see an answer was posted in the other thread. They said that I will need two cable cards to record two encrypted channels. That means I could need up to 6 cablecards. How much do they usually charge a month for these? I have Comcast in my area.
If you are getting 3 S3s, sure.

For one S3, you need only two Cablecards to get two encrypted channels, if not one multistream card.

[miimura]

1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.
2. If you are viewing HD Broadcast signals via this manner on TWC, please realize we are not supporting the HD Broadcast viewing. You are paying for 2-13 analog and that is what we are supporting. There is no promise you will get all HD Broadcast signals and there is no promise that if you get them that way today, you will always receive them via this method.
3. TWC engineering can (and does) move the QAMs for technical benefits within the headend. They don't tell me, we don't notify consumers. So if you are depending on viewing in this manner and tune into the season finale of 24 or some such and the signal has been moved from the QAM... then that's the risk you are taking by depending on your HD Broadcast channels in this manner.
4. TWC may in the future scramble the HD Broadcast signals - I'm not saying we will, I'm just saying right now - today - this second, its easier from a technical standpoint to have these channels in the clear but there could conceivably be some reason to change this procedure.A lot of this may be FUD, but I think #3 is the most critical and the most likely to be 100% true. It is also the biggest reason that Tivo may require the CableCARD for unencrypted QAM reception. However, if they can somehow get the real-time lineup and virtual channel information without the CableCARD, then they should not require the card. This would be the best possible outcome. However, if it were technically possible, then I would think the TV makers would do it too - and I don't think they have.

- Mike