No dual buffers? Are you kidding me?

[hoopsrgreat]

I have 2 SD tivos and the HR10-250. I am reading that the new d* HR20 HD receiver has no dual buffers?
If you get used to switching between 2 channels and the ability to pause and watch 2 shows at once without having to watch any commercials, how could you possibly switch back to having only 1 live buffer?
I am sorry if thisis a topic that has been beat up, but i didnt see anything on this issue.

I am not a tivo loyalist. I am loyal to products that give me what I want. So when D* is getting me more HD content for sports I want to see and it is on the HR20 and NOT the 10-250, Id get the HR20 in an instant,,,,,,,,,,, but now I have to go backwards with only 1 buffer?

How can you even use only 1 buffer to watch 2 shows at once?

Why wouldnt D* have 2 buffers? Were they tryingto make distinct differences between their unti and a tivo to avoid litigation??

Corey

[JimSpence]

I have 2 SD tivos and the HR10-250. I am reading that the new d* HR20 HD receiver has no dual buffers?
If you get used to switching between 2 channels and the ability to pause and watch 2 shows at once without having to watch any commercials, how could you possibly switch back to having only 1 live buffer?
I am sorry if thisis a topic that has been beat up, but i didnt see anything on this issue.

I am not a tivo loyalist. I am loyal to products that give me what I want. So when D* is getting me more HD content for sports I want to see and it is on the HR20 and NOT the 10-250, Id get the HR20 in an instant,,,,,,,,,,, but now I have to go backwards with only 1 buffer?

How can you even use only 1 buffer to watch 2 shows at once?

Why wouldnt D* have 2 buffers? Were they tryingto make distinct differences between their unti and a tivo to avoid litigation??

Corey
I suspect that they wanted to by able to say that the buffer is 90 minutes. Forget that this is just plain stupid to not have two operating buffers.

There is a lot of talk going on in the official HR20 forum.
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

A workaround would be to record both tuners and then switch as needed.

[thebarge]

A workaround would be to record both tuners and then switch as needed.Even then it doesn't save your paused location. So if you're 30 mins behind on tuner 1, you switch to tuner 2, then back to tuner 1 you're live.

Caveat: That's what I've read. I do not currently have the HR20.

[ebonovic]

It's the end of the world as we know it...

Seriously... I understand the dual buffer concept.... but after 6 years of using a DVR... 95% of what I watch is pre-recorded... Pretty much only sporting events is where I use dual buffers... and even then not that often, as I don't subscribe to any of the extended sports packages... and I am pretty content on watching the Bears and the White Sox games when they are on... and let either the internet or score ticker fill me in on other games on interest

Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?

I can understand maybe two News stations when there is a braking story...

They are working on the "save" point for the recordings, and they are discussing bringing the dual buffers to the HR20...

[utvnut]

"Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?"

I DO!

We watch many recorded shows but at least 50% of the time we use 2 tuner "buffer-switching". Network news. prime time, DIY/Food channel on and on. We cant record everything we like so we usually watch 2 shows at once.

Anyway, why have LESS features on the newest device? No one matches Bill Gates aborted device, the Ultimate TV box from years ago.

[hoopsrgreat]

Earl,
I have nothing but respect for you as you are one of the best contributors to this site, and I thank you for all the help you offer everyone. That being said.... yes, losing 2 dual buffers is the end of the world:)

Imagine eating a nice steak every Friday night, then all of the sudden your wife throws down some health food crap instead of that steak.

Right now I have on the US open on one channel. and CNN on the other. As soon as a commerical comes on the tennis, im over to cnn.

Would I die without it, No. But after doing this for a few years now, I do not want to lose that ability.

aA 90 minute buffer?? Who cares, If I want that long of a buffer, id just record the darn show.

I have the NFL ticket as well as the NBA league pass, so I watch lots of sports all year. As you said 95% of your viewing is pre-recorded, mine is around 25%... maybe as high as 40, but no more. I need dual buffers.

[rifleman69]

Imagine a Saturday where you couldn't switch between two college football games (or Sunday NFL games). The workaround is to record what you're watching on both channels?


That's a huge deal breaker for me.

[kturcotte]

I seem to recall Directv at one time saying the the DirecTivo wasn't ideal for watching Live Tv, and their DVR would be. I'm with Earl, just about EVERYTHING I watch is recorded (I will watch the season premier of Nip/Tuck tomorrow night live), so dual buffers aren't a big deal for me. But Directv wanted to make a DVR that dealt with Live Tv better? Good job. Single tuner buffer is right up there with dropping Tivo in the first place.

[DAS37]

I watch 2 sitcoms or 2 dramas or 1 of each all the time now. At first it was weird going back and forth between 2 different shows but I have gotten used to it. I also use it during Sunday Ticket and am planning to use it for English soccer since FSC and Setanta are showing simo games now. I would rather have two 30 minute buffers than one 90 minute buffer even if it is longer. Deal breaker indeed.

[A J Ricaud]

I'm with Earl. But if I was a sports fan I could understand the concern.

[WinstonSmith]

I agree. it is a dealbreaker.

[ebonovic]

I can seriously understand it for sports... I really can... and I am not debating that.

I just can't see it for two "programs"... I guess I am just so used to watching things hours later (I rarely get to sit down before 10pm CST to watch TV anymore), if not days later...

And again... I have had multiple conversations with DTV that they are investigating how to bring dual buffers to HR20.... So if it does come in some form... what is the next deal braker?


And as for the 90 minute buffer.... I have numerous times where the 30 minutes simply "elapsed" away on some Sunday afternoons...

Everyone has their different criteria for a system.


Oh yes.. and the "end of the world as we know it", was a joke.
I understand it is a major issue for some, and they flat out won't even consider the unit.

But to "me" "end of the world" is when something happens that allows no DVRing at all.
Do I miss Dual buffers, yes... but now that I have been without them for nearly a year on the R15.... I have adjusted my viewing habits accordingly... just like I adapted to the new interface.

[WinstonSmith]

Dual buffers is the only "dealbreaker" as far as I'm concerned.

[BrettStah]

If they fix the HR20 so that it will remember the paused location of each recording, and allow for one-button switching between the two things being recorded, I could live with the lack of 2 live tv buffers.

[az_double_eagle]

I agree that it is a deal breaker, and it pains me to disagree with Earl. There are plenty of times when I am using my Now Playing List (NPL) to catch up on some daily shows (PTI, Golf Central), while BOTH buffers are paused.

I refuse to be bothered with commercials, and I really like pausing both buffers, watching a little of PTI (for example), pressing Live TV catching up on one buffer to live, then hitting pause, then hitting Live TV to switch tuners, catching up to live again, and hitting pause, then going back to the NPL to start where I left off on my show and starting the whole process over again.

I know that may sound over-the-top, but hey, that's what all of the people on this forum are made up of - nuts (or should I say "Evangelists"?)!

What's amazing is that I (and I know I am not alone) have four tuners (1 HDVR2 and 1 HR10-250) and sometimes I have all four paused and switching between all 4.

I guess it helps to be single (or maybe that's why I'm single?).

And guys, I STILL have trouble convincing some other co-workers (and family members) why they should have TiVo? Unbelievable.

Dual Buffers are a must, but I think I'd happily settle (me and 1000 of my friends) for 6.3 (when it comes out, and it will come out :-) ) on my HR10-250 instead of jumping to the HR20 anyway.

Cya!

[vaporware]

I junked my r15 because of the lack of dual buffers and the lack of a start point when switching between tuners. Both are MAJOR oversights IMO.

[kturcotte]

If they fix the HR20 so that it will remember the paused location of each recording, and allow for one-button switching between the two things being recorded, I could live with the lack of 2 live tv buffers.

That's another big one for me. I don't buy this "Bookmarking" junk. Quite frequently, I'm watching something and for some reason or another, I decide to stop watching it. I don't want to have to remember to set up a bookmark before I leave the progam, or try and remember where I was. I want it to start EXACTLY where I left off.
Another big problem for me is the lack of Wishlists. Auto recording wishlists aren't THAT big of a deal (Though I'm sure they are to some), but I don't really like how the D10 and R15 deal with "Wishlists".

[drew2k]

Another big problem for me is the lack of Wishlists. Auto recording wishlists aren't THAT big of a deal (Though I'm sure they are to some), but I don't really like how the D10 and R15 deal with "Wishlists".I was just checking out the R15 at my family's house, and from the instruction manual, it looks like you CAN set up to record shows from the FIND feature, and I took it that it would record future showings, just like the wishlist. Was I wrong about that? (The family hasn't tried it yet.)

[jhimmel]

I make heavy use of Wishlists with my Tivo - and the dual buffers often enough.
FIOS is available in my area. Now I'm just waiting for the S3.

Jim H.

[ebonovic]

I agree that it is a deal breaker, and it pains me to disagree with Earl.

Please..... it should "pain" anyone to disagree with me....

There is no right or wrong....
If there is one thing I have stressed in all my posts.... choose which option is best for YOU..... not what is best for "me", not what is best for "the next guy"....

YOU and everyone else.... have to identify what factors are important to them, and the way they want to enjoy TV....

If DirecTV has made a choice, and it doesn't agree with what you want... then go else where..... If no one has your perfect DVR (and there isn't one), you have to identify what option comes as close as it can to what you want....

[kturcotte]

I PREFER my HR10-250, even though I don't have HD yet, and probably won't for at least 2 years, so I should be fine for awhile. I've used Adelphia's/Time Warner's HD DVR, and if it's a choice between that and the HR20, I'll take the HR20 (I can't STAND the TV guide "guide" that the cable companies use). I MUCH prefer my DirecTivo guide, but I've played with D10's and an R15, and it's not bad.
I'd LOVE a couple of Series 3s, but with their price, and the cable company still broadcasting the lower 75 channels in analog only, it's not going to happen.

[harley3k]

I make heavy use of Wishlists with my Tivo - and the dual buffers often enough.
FIOS is available in my area. Now I'm just waiting for the S3.

Jim H.

I'm with you Jim!!!!!

I have 3 HDTVs, and I don't see paying $399 or $299 for an HDDVR in each room that has *less* features than my HR10, with no added content other than 3 local channels for my area that I get via OTA just fine now. Even if I b!tched to get one HR20 for free, and still got to keep the HR10, I'd still have to buy at least one HR20 for the 3rd room ($299, $399???), and sign a 2 year committment to boot.

I can switch to Fios, and buy the S3 for $799 (rumored price) for my Media Room, then lease the Fios HD-DVRs for $13/month for my office and bedroom... Later as the S3 price drops and I can upgrade the extra rooms, and have Multi-Room-Viewing and all the extra Tivo capabilities (HMO) to go with it - along with frequent software updates instead of hoping for a rumored 6.3 update for my HR10 that is at least a year past due IMO.

Also, there's no AT9 dish I have to buy/beg to get for free/have installed.
No extra charge for the so-called "hd package"!
And More HD Channels today than D* will have in more than a year from now.

The better features and content with Fios+S3 over D*+HR20 is worth the extra I'll pay for my first S3 up front. And the savings in my subscription (Fios over D*) will cover some of the extra cost of the cable cards and Tivo sub (upwards of $19.95/month).

I also really don't like that if I called D* outright and asked for HR20s they would charge me full price....even though I am supposed to be one of their "very important customers" - it's only if I haggle and threaten to leave can I maybe possibly get 1 unit for free, and only if I re-up for 2 more years. Instead of advertising a fair deal to existing HR10 owners, they're only giving it to you if you ask.......that is simply D* doing the bare minimum as always.

-h

[TyroneShoes]

...Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?...
See what happens when you ask a rhetorical question on a forum? :rolleyes:

[TyroneShoes]

...Who cares, If I want that long of a buffer, id just record the darn show...
What a concept! Someone should invent a device that lets you do that instead of flipping between buffers that run out too soon. We could call it a...a "Personal Video Recorder"-- or maybe "PVR" for short. I'll bet there's some boutique tech startups in silicon valley that could eventually come up with that, but we might have to wait until 1998!

If something looks like I might want to see it, I just hit record and delete it later (or let Tivo worry about that). I hardly ever use the buffer for anything, other than closer scrutiny of a live Victoria's Secret commercial.

I loved having two--count 'em--two 2-hour buffers on dual tuner DISH PVRs, and I expected to really miss that feature moving to DTivo, but Tivo works so well it changes how you watch TV. At least it changed how I watch TV to the point I don't need a buffer at all.

[aaronwt]

Can't you just set it to record each program and jump back and forth between each channel? Wouldn't that solve the problem? I know with my HDTiVo I will occasionally switch between two programs that are on at the same time, but I'm always recording them anyway. You never know what might come up and I won't get to finish watching them until later.

[thecrave]

I'm not arguing the feature -- lack of dual buffers and disabled OTA tuners is keeping my HR10-250 close to my heart (6.3 would make it a permanent fixture). :D

BUT --- Could this be a licensing issue? ie- Dual-buffer patent is owned by someone other than DirecTV (Tivo?), that they don't want to pay licensing fees to OR risk (future) litigation?

I tried a quick search of the USPTO website -- lots there, nothing clear-cut.

Anyone "in the know?"

Or is this just a classic problem of deficient s/w development requirements?

[TyroneShoes]

...I know that may sound over-the-top, but hey, that's what all of the people on this forum are made up of - nuts (or should I say "Evangelists"?)!...
Well, make up your mind, because "nuts" and "evangelists" typically have completely different definitions. Of course some "evangelists" are also "nuts", and some "nuts" are also "evangelists", but they are not necessarily the same thing, most of the time.

"Evangelist" defines as a "zealous advocate" of something, if you leave out the religious overtones. I'ts even in my sig because it seemed like that particular definition fit. I think life without zealous advocacy would be both wasteful and boring, so I wear it as a badge of honor.

I guess "nuts" could also be defined that way, when you think about it. You know, "sports nut", "movie nut". When you come right down to it, collectively they are all "nuts", even though many of them may not actually be "nuts" (other definition). But maybe "nuts" is to easy to misconstrue. Or not.

Maybe I will just change my sig to "Nuts", and then wear THAT as a badge of honor. :)

[harley3k]

Maybe I will just change my sig to "Nuts", and then wear THAT as a badge of honor. :)

There's a joke here, but I don't think I can post it.

-h

[vikingguy]

I don't like it either I will let direct tv know by cancelling my sunday ticket next year. With out dual buffers sunday ticket is worthless to me. I also do like the option when watching live TV pausing it then using the other tuner to see if something better is on. If they are doing this for SD VOD then they are dumb. I get enough SD content I don't like watching my HDtv I sure am not going to pay for more.

[harley3k]

I don't like it either I will let direct tv know by cancelling my sunday ticket next year. With out dual buffers sunday ticket is worthless to me. I also do like the option when watching live TV pausing it then using the other tuner to see if something better is on. If they are doing this for SD VOD then they are dumb. I get enough SD content I don't like watching my HDtv I sure am not going to pay for more.

They'd be STUPID not to update the system with Dual Buffers in my opinion (Earl speculates we may see it). If you just add up the customers on these forums that have stated that dual buffers are a 'deal breaker' - that's a chunk of subscribers (plus all the ones that aren't on the forums) - especially when you figure in Sunday Ticket and Sports subscription fees.......

The hardware obviously has the ability to do it, why wouldn't they add it? They have other features that will be enabled in future updates like turning on those Ethernet/SATA/USB ports........Dual Buffers seems like a no brainer to add and the marginal cost seems like it should be $0 for them, since all dev is in house.

Unless they're making more revenue off all the SPAM they're going to download on that second receiver while you're not recording or buffering on it :eek: than they would stand to earn from the hundred or so subscribers that will actually leave....hmmmm...

In my opinion, you can't get a better clipping service on what people think of D* and Tivo DVRs than these forums...If they have any sense at all, they'll do the dual buffers.

-h

[TyroneShoes]

I think they have to balance whatever trouble and expense it might be against their perception of how important it is to the subs. We have no control over the first part, but we do have some impact on the second part. If you want it, be a squeaky wheel and tell them so. Don't expect talk on this or any other forum to motivate them, even if they do read it.

I'm skeptical that they think it is all that important. If I'm right, we may need to try to change that.

[harley3k]

I'm skeptical that they think it [dual buffers] is all that important. If I'm right, we may need to try to change that.

They obviously didn't think it was all that important to leave the feature off in the first place. I guess that's part of the challenge when you're competing with your own superior product....but to release a *new* DVR with fewer features and then try to get me to pay $399 for it is a serious oversight. They do have the advantage of forcing the *upgrade* on their existing customers, if they succeed in converting all MPEG2 HD content to MPEG4 by the end of 2007. Of course if S3 comes out then we have the option to switch content providers. And that rumored $799 S3 price doesn't look so bad now next to a $399 price for an HR20 without dual buffers.

It wouldn't suprise me to see DirecTV lobbying against Cable Card along with the cable co's, even though it doesn't apply to them, simply to ward off any defections to Series3s. I would put that tactic in the same category as locking customers into 2 year committments :down:

-h

[vikingguy]

They'd be STUPID not to update the system with Dual Buffers in my opinion (Earl speculates we may see it). If you just add up the customers on these forums that have stated that dual buffers are a 'deal breaker' - that's a chunk of subscribers (plus all the ones that aren't on the forums) - especially when you figure in Sunday Ticket and Sports subscription fees.......

The hardware obviously has the ability to do it, why wouldn't they add it? They have other features that will be enabled in future updates like turning on those Ethernet/SATA/USB ports........Dual Buffers seems like a no brainer to add and the marginal cost seems like it should be $0 for them, since all dev is in house.

Unless they're making more revenue off all the SPAM they're going to download on that second receiver while you're not recording or buffering on it :eek: than they would stand to earn from the hundred or so subscribers that will actually leave....hmmmm...

In my opinion, you can't get a better clipping service on what people think of D* and Tivo DVRs than these forums...If they have any sense at all, they'll do the dual buffers.

-h


From the sound of it the reason they are not active is so they can offer VOD. When the 2nd tuner is not recording it will be downloading VOD. With a measily 300gig hard drive only 50 of it dedicated to VOD I bet VOD will be in SD.

[DustyB]

Guys (maybe some of you) on another forum were all emailing D*TV and explaining their concern about the lack of dual live buffers on the HR-20. We were doing it in a professional manner but, at the same time, letting them know weren't happy about it and that we would hold onto our HD Tivo's for as long as possible and may be forced to look into other providers if the issue isn't resolved. According to Earl, the people at D*Tv have taken notice - both through the emails and monitoring forums like these.

I would think emails have to be more effective though - it gives solid, direct evidence of their customers' concerns. The more that pile in, they more they have to take notice. It may not force them to do anything, but it at least takes away their ability to say "we didn't think people cared that much about dual buffers."

Everyone seems to receive a pretty quick (if sometimes canned) response, so they are getting the messages and passing them through. It only takes a minute to do and can't hurt our cause.

[hhh222]

Yep...no dual buffers and no 30 second skip and I'll be keeping my HD Tivos as long as they work. Don't care what channels are added to MPEG 4.

[Sir_winealot]

Re: upgrading to the new HR20.

No dual buffers and the lack of saving ones place in a recorded program makes the word 'upgrade' seem somewhat inappropriate.

And most people who purchase, or 'upgrade' will have no idea that they are getting a machine that does not have these feautures. It's not like they're gonna advertise this on the box "No Dual Buffers!," while only a small percentage of folks are actually members of this forum.

To many whom (erroneously) assume that it will have the same features as the HR10/250 ...and then some ....they will be sorely disappointed.

[DixonJDixon]

Dual Buffers=Dealbreaker. As soon as the NFL season is over, bye-bye Rupert.

[itsmeitsmeitsme]

They obviously didn't think it was all that important to leave the feature off in the first place. I guess that's part of the challenge when you're competing with your own superior product....but to release a *new* DVR with fewer features and then try to get me to pay $399 for it is a serious oversight. They do have the advantage of forcing the *upgrade* on their existing customers, if they succeed in converting all MPEG2 HD content to MPEG4 by the end of 2007. Of course if S3 comes out then we have the option to switch content providers. And that rumored $799 S3 price doesn't look so bad now next to a $399 price for an HR20 without dual buffers.

It wouldn't suprise me to see DirecTV lobbying against Cable Card along with the cable co's, even though it doesn't apply to them, simply to ward off any defections to Series3s. I would put that tactic in the same category as locking customers into 2 year committments :down:

-h
If you want to pay $400 for dual buffers then it is great that you have that choice. I am just glad we have so many choices to make.

[thebarge]

And most people who purchase, or 'upgrade' will have no idea that they are getting a machine that does not have these feautures. It's not like they're gonna advertise this on the box "No Dual Buffers!," while only a small percentage of folks are actually members of this forum.

To many whom (erroneously) assume that it will have the same features as the HR10/250 ...and then some ....they will be sorely disappointed.That's actually a great point. For their everyday DVR users who don't frequent AV forums online will have no idea what they're in for. They just read "upgrade" and think that means it's going to be awesome, only to find out the whole UI is completely different and it lacks features of their previous DVR. That'll be a seriously unhappy customer.

[ebonovic]

Yep...no dual buffers and no 30 second skip and I'll be keeping my HD Tivos as long as they work. Don't care what channels are added to MPEG 4.

Well there is the 30s SLIP (not the same as the TiVo backdoor code)...

[drew2k]

Earl - Can you respond on how the FIND feature records ... I wrote the following earlier, but would appreciate your input on it. Does the R15 (and HR20) have DirecTV's version of the auto-record wishlist? I was just checking out the R15 at my family's house, and from the instruction manual, it looks like you CAN set up to record shows from the FIND feature, and I took it that it would record future showings, just like the wishlist. Was I wrong about that? (The family hasn't tried it yet.)Or did I misunderstand what was in the manual, and all you can do is locate the show (kine of like TiVo's "Find by Title feature") and then record the show it located, but not FUTURE showings.

Thanks.

[ebonovic]

There is an Auto Record for Keyword and Actor, but for Title you can't set a re-occuring "wishlist" autorecord.

[mr.unnatural]

I can see how not having dual live buffers may be a dealbreaker for some, but I'm in Earl's camp on this issue. I rarely watch live TV anymore and the vast majority of the programming I watch is prerecorded on the drive.

There's a very simple fixes for not having dual live buffers, some of which have already been mentioned. Here's my list of suggestions:

1. Record everything you want to watch. Check the program guide ahead of time to make sure everything is set up to be recorded instead of counting on a buffer to pick up what you've missed. If you know there's more than one game being aired that you want to watch, record them both and watch them at your leisure. Just because you're too lazy to check the guide doesn't mean the DVR should be upgraded to match your lifestyle. Still, if it's a feature you can't live without then let DTV know about it and keep your fingers crossed.

2. Get two DVRs and switch between them. If your TV has PIP then you can set it up so you'll see both DVRs on the screen at the same time. I've got three HDTivos and a regular DTivo and I still don't rely on buffers for what I want to watch.

I rarely use the buffers on my HDTivos since I record everything I watch, with but a few exceptions. I did use it the other day because something caught my eye when I turned on the TV so I set it up to record and the buffer caught the beginning of the segment. Just take a few minutes each day to set up shows for viewing later if you don't already have them set up with season passes. I never watch shows in real time anymore, except for sports. My HDTivos allow me to set my own viewing schedule rather than be a slave to the network's time slots.

[HiDefGator]

A very small percentage of Tivo owners even know that dual buffers is a feature. As much as you guys love it, you are in the minority. A quick poll of every one I know with a Tivo produced ZERO people that knew dual buffers could be used to bounce between two live channels.

It is sad that its not in the HR20 version 1.0 release but I'm not surprised.

[thebarge]

1. Record everything you want to watch. Check the program guide ahead of time to make sure everything is set up to be recorded instead of counting on a buffer to pick up what you've missed. If you know there's more than one game being aired that you want to watch, record them both and watch them at your leisure. Just because you're too lazy to check the guide doesn't mean the DVR should be upgraded to match your lifestyle. Still, if it's a feature you can't live without then let DTV know about it and keep your fingers crossed.I'm not recording everything I may possibly want to watch. I don't know exactly when I may be sitting in front of the television. I also wouldn't call it lazy because I don't want to spend 20+ minutes (if I'm lucky) wading through the guide when I could be spending that time doing something else (like just watching with my HR10 with dual buffers).

2. Get two DVRs and switch between them. If your TV has PIP then you can set it up so you'll see both DVRs on the screen at the same time. I've got three HDTivos and a regular DTivo and I still don't rely on buffers for what I want to watch.That still isn't dual buffers, and I think it just starts to get too overly complicated (especially for my wife) to have multiple DVR's recording programs all the time. Not to mention that it'd cost me an additional $399 for the "extra" HR20.

A very small percentage of Tivo owners even know that dual buffers is a feature. As much as you guys love it, you are in the minority. A quick poll of every one I know with a Tivo produced ZERO people that knew dual buffers could be used to bounce between two live channels.Oh really? Check out the (multiple) polls and threads at dbstalk about dual buffers. Current poll has 65% say it's a must have, 10% don't care about it, and 25% like the option but are fine with it not being there.

[HiDefGator]

>> Oh really? Check out the (multiple) polls and threads at dbstalk about dual buffers. Current poll has 65% say it's a must have, 10% don't care about it, and 25% like the option but are fine with it not being there.

That would be the 65% of the people that frequent dbstalk, not 65% of the people that own Tivo's.

[Bob_Newhart]

Well, this info of no dual buffer makes my decision of whether to switch to the new dvr when it's availble, an easy one for me. I like my dual buffer and am happy with over-the-air locals, so I won't switch.

If this guide ever speeds up then I will be extremely happy. The only time I'd consider switching is if they were to suddenly add a buttload of HD programming available only on the H20

[loubol]

I just had my HR20 installed this weekend and the no buffer thing sucks. Ill live without it but it does suck not having it. One thing I was under the impresion that I could do was record one show and use it as a buffer while I watched another show. If you start recording a show on one tuner and change the channel (the only way to get to the other tuner) you can not swap back and forth between the recording show and your live buffer. The only way to get to the recorded show is to go to your Now Playing list (My VOD) and starti it from beginning of the recording. As far as i've seen there is no way to swap tuners (which would be useless anyways with out dual buffers) besides recording a show and then changing the channel.

[thebarge]

Well, this info of no dual buffer makes my decision of whether to switch to the new dvr when it's availble, an easy one for me. I like my dual buffer and am happy with over-the-air locals, so I won't switch.

If this guide ever speeds up then I will be extremely happy. The only time I'd consider switching is if they were to suddenly add a buttload of HD programming available only on the H20I'm in the same boat. I just hope they push down the 6.x update to increase speed and add folders so I can hold onto my Tivo until, as you put it, they add a buttload of HD programming. I can betcha you'll see dual buffers on the H20 in the next few months though.

[thebarge]

I just had my HR20 installed this weekend and the no buffer thing sucks. Ill live without it but it does suck not having it. One thing I was under the impresion that I could do was record one show and use it as a buffer while I watched another show. If you start recording a show on one tuner and change the channel (the only way to get to the other tuner) you can not swap back and forth between the recording show and your live buffer. The only way to get to the recorded show is to go to your Now Playing list (My VOD) and starti it from beginning of the recording. As far as i've seen there is no way to swap tuners (which would be useless anyways with out dual buffers) besides recording a show and then changing the channel.Youch really!? There's no way to just swap (like down-arrow in tivo) tuners? I realized that you would lose buffer, but I didn't realize there wasn't an easy way to swap back and forth. Sounds like they need to retool their use of the two tuners.

[loubol]

The first question my wife had was how do I switch tunners. When I explaned to her how it worked she just looked at me and said "WEAK".

[ad301]

Earl - Can you respond on how the FIND feature records ... I wrote the following earlier, but would appreciate your input on it. Does the R15 (and HR20) have DirecTV's version of the auto-record wishlist? Or did I misunderstand what was in the manual, and all you can do is locate the show (kine of like TiVo's "Find by Title feature") and then record the show it located, but not FUTURE showings.
Thanks.The r15 (and as far as I know, nothing has been changed on the hr20) has a very limited subset of the wishlist functionality. And it's rather buggy, to boot. If you're only looking to do an occasional search or two, then it might suffice. But for any fan of wishlists, like me, or anyone who relies on wishlists to record sports teams' games, the r15 ( and presumably hr20) is very disappointing. D* has thrown wishlist users under the bus. Sadly, there don't appear to be enough of us to matter to them.

It's been discussed rather thoroughly over at Earl's place. I wrote this back in November, as part of a longer rant (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=476200&postcount=1), "...So I decided to get an r15 to test, in parallel, with an r10 I already had.
I set up the same series recordings and searches on both machines to see what would happen. Unfortunately, I discovered very quickly that the Find function on the r15 is totally inadequate for my particular usage. There's a limit of 25 on recent finds, there is no way to save searches other than setting them to autorecord (which introduces a whole new set of problems), and there's no way to search all the recent finds as a group. Additionally, searches display episode titles rather than series names, there's no way to exclude channels you don't even receive from the results, and the results miss hits which the r10 finds....Are you a sports fan? I rarely watch live sports anymore, but what I do like to do is record each game my local teams play, and then if I care to, I can check out the overtime goal, or the walk off homer, or the controversial call that should have been overturned, or the latest injury to a Jets' quarterback. I use one of my hr10s to catch HD games, and one of my dsr6000s to catch all the SD games. Using autorecord wishlists set to retain 2 events each, and set fairly low in the SP priority list, it works very well. I tried to set up the same thing on the r15, and got some games recorded, but also got a lot of partial recordings, recordings on channels I don't receive or subscribe to, and some just missed completely. The r15 is not smart enough to know that if a lower priority item conflicts with a higher priority item, it should try to schedule it at a later time. Instead, it records partial programs...."

I wrote that last November, but as far as I know, it all still holds true today, for both the r15 and hr20.

I'd suggest very strongly that anyone looking for information on what to expect from the hr20, look no further than the message traffic on the r15 over at dbstalk. It's been out nearly 10 months now...

And, BTW, as far as dual buffers go, it was a big issue whan the r15 was released, and D* was said to be looking into adding the feature. (Sound familiar?) Months later clarification came: forget it. If you're expecting dual buffers to be added to the hr20, don't hold your breath. (Just my opinion, of course.)

[jcricket]

My overall reaction to all the new HD DVRs is meh, or maybe sigh.

A couple of features are missing, but overall the HR20, Series 3, Moto/Comcast Tivo, seems like sideways trades, which is particularly depressing given the 2-years since the HR10 came out. Why still only two active tuners? Why not 3 or 4? Why not MRV as a standard option with really inexpensive remote receivers (no hard drive, etc.)? Why aren't HMO and simple-web scheduling features standard (I don't care if other people won't use those features).

I infrequently, but frustratingly, run into situations where I need to record three things at once, or would like to schedule a program I forgot to set up. HMO would allow me listen to my music anywhere. If I had MPEG4 and OTA HD locals, I could record two of the programs via satellite and one via OTA (or vice versa). I realize the Series 3 will be able to do these things, so it's appealing, but not enough of an improvement over the HR10 to pay $800 to switch. Maybe if it had a built-in HD-DVD player and/or Netflix-like movie subscription service and those remote receivers I talked about.

Maybe when there are another 10-20 real HD channels (including all my locals via MPEG4), and I'm convinced they're not down-rezzing the MPEG4 HD locals, and the HR20 is free (with contract), I'll switch.

[Mark W]

I am another who really utilizes the dual buffers. Especially with sports and during summer reruns where I am not watching the shows I really like. Sometimes if I know there is only 1 recorded show I will want to watch, I will set up the two tuners on shows I find interesting so that when the recorded show is over, I have buffered material to switch between.

[Dick Kalagher]

Many time my wife is watching somthing live on the TiVo and I ask if I can check the stock market or a sports score. I pause her program, go the other tuner and check my stuff, come back an unpause her program where she was. Everyone is happy. What hapens if I try this on the HR20?

[Charlutz]

For those are saying that the 'dual buffer fanatics' are overreacting ...

It only seems that way to you because you use your tivo/dvr differently than we do. I got D* for the season ticket. NFL games are 30 mins of 'meat' and 3 hours of waiting around. Having the dual buffers and 30 sec skip allows me to watch 2 full games in three hours, plus catch a lot of a third or 4th game while the other games are paused or in halftime. All with one dvr. You can't relate to how much the dual buffer means to this because you don't use your tivo this way. Recording two games isn't a suitable workaround because you lose the ability to jump to a third or fourth channel, or stop by the red zone channel or 8 games at once channel. It will dramatically change how I watch the season ticket and cause me to question whether it's worth the $300 next year if I have to pay for superfan. At the same time, D* is 'making me' get the hr 20 if I want to use the interactive features. I can't have my cake and eat it too.

I'd also like to know what the issue is. Is it that VOD needs the other tuner? Is there a patent issue? If 'inferior' dvr's like the dish network have dual tuner buffers, why can't the hr-20? Wasn't this a software add when it was originally incorporated into the tivos? Seems like there should be a fix, but as people have been complaining about it since Earl first reviewed the R15 and nothing's been done, I'm beginning to believe it's a big issue.

[SledgeHammer!]

I dont really watch sports, but I watch sitcoms, movies, etc. and I DEFINITELY use the dual buffers all the time. I'll generally turn on the TV, hit pause and then come back in 10 minutes or so to fill up some buffer. If I really want to start watching something now, I'll let one of the buffers fill up and surf on the other buffer. I'll do the same if I "catch up" on the buffer I'm watching. I do this on sitcoms, movies, etc. it just pains me to watch commercials :).

[HiDefGator]

>> For those are saying that the 'dual buffer fanatics' are overreacting ...

I've never said you were over reacting and I do appreciate that you really like the feature. But I still believe the percentage of people that make use of the feature is very small. And that is why DTV didn't see any compelling reason to support it in version 1.

There was a choice they had to make, ship it today and start getting the bugs identified and fixed or wait until every single feature is coded and working, then ship it. I think they took the right approach. What is there seems to work reasonably well.

[Sir_winealot]

that is why DTV didn't see any compelling reason to support it in version 1.

There was a choice they had to make, ship it today and start getting the bugs identified and fixed or wait until every single feature is coded and working, then ship it. I think they took the right approach. What is there seems to work reasonably well.

Using this reasoning ...why then haven't they added this feature to the r15 yet?

[harley3k]

I'd also like to know what the issue is. Is it that VOD needs the other tuner? Is there a patent issue? If 'inferior' dvr's like the dish network have dual tuner buffers, why can't the hr-20? Wasn't this a software add when it was originally incorporated into the tivos? Seems like there should be a fix, but as people have been complaining about it since Earl first reviewed the R15 and nothing's been done, I'm beginning to believe it's a big issue.

I have to think it is VOD or Spam that they want to download at will.
I have an old T60 in a guest room that only has 1 tuner hooked up due to cabling limitations and seldom use of the box. Every single time I go in that room it is getting showcase data and on that blank channel downloading crap. If I had 2 inputs like I do on my other boxes I'd never see this.

If D* can download every one of their PPV offers (poor as they are) in 1 day to your hard drive, they could eventually reduce the bandwidth they're using for all the PPV channels.

I can only see 3 possible reasons they'd leave off the second buffer. 1) Performance - they want the box to be faster unless there's a recording conflift 2) Simple oversight in the design. Or my favorite 3) They stand to make more money recording spam or VOD content on the 2nd tuner... I do think more people may buy PPV if it's already on their Hard Drive and they can start it at any time... Its less impulsive if you have to wait till the top of the hour like now.

-h

[HiDefGator]

Using this reasoning ...why then haven't they added this feature to the r15 yet?

maybe they were busy fixing bugs and all the other limitations it has...or maybe they were just busy trying to get the HR20 out the door.

[drew2k]

There is an Auto Record for Keyword and Actor, but for Title you can't set a re-occuring "wishlist" autorecord.Thanks. That's better than what most people here may have thought, as you can at least simulate a title search using the keyword search. (Of course, you may get more hits than a title-only search, but you can always review the To Do list.)

[drew2k]

The r15 (and as far as I know, nothing has been changed on the hr20) has a very limited subset of the wishlist functionality. And it's rather buggy, to boot. If you're only looking to do an occasional search or two, then it might suffice. But for any fan of wishlists, like me, or anyone who relies on wishlists to record sports teams' games, the r15 ( and presumably hr20) is very disappointing. D* has thrown wishlist users under the bus. Sadly, there don't appear to be enough of us to matter to them.

It's been discussed rather thoroughly over at Earl's place. I wrote this back in November, as part of a longer rant (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=476200&postcount=1) ...

Wow. Thanks for this addtional info on the search feature. I guess it's NOT as good as I thought ... :(

[drew2k]

There's a very simple fixes for not having dual live buffers, some of which have already been mentioned. Here's my list of suggestions:

1. Record everything you want to watch. There's a major problem with this approach that you may not have considered when watching Hi-Def sports on DirecTV, namely, how much free space do you have and is it enough to record two sports programs? Consider what the guide typically reports for the duration for a Hi-Def Yankees game on Channel 95 in the NY DMA (MPEG2 recorders): 1 PM to 7 PM. In other words, when you click record you have to have at least 6 hours free, or if you don't, one or more titles marked "Keep until space space needed" are going to get erased. Obviously most games aren't going to run 6 hours, but that's what the guide has listed.

Now you want people to record two sports programs, but why make people with full wish-lists "Now Playing" lists erase well over 6 hours of previously recorded titles when a simple dual-tuner buffer solution would suffice?

[tbeckner]

It's the end of the world as we know it...

Seriously... I understand the dual buffer concept.... but after 6 years of using a DVR... 95% of what I watch is pre-recorded... Pretty much only sporting events is where I use dual buffers... and even then not that often, as I don't subscribe to any of the extended sports packages... and I am pretty content on watching the Bears and the White Sox games when they are on... and let either the internet or score ticker fill me in on other games on interest

Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?

I can understand maybe two News stations when there is a braking story...

They are working on the "save" point for the recordings, and they are discussing bringing the dual buffers to the HR20...So, I was right, dual live buffers for the R15 is likely never going to happen, because it would be too big of a change to the core software (as I said, a design failure). When the R15 was first released, DirecTV said that the R15 was made to enhance the watching of live TV, but IMHO they really screwed this one up!

I said in January it was a design failure that would likely never be reversed and it appears that I was correct.

BTW, a design failure DOES NOT MEAN A SOFTWARE FAILURE, just a lack of understanding how some DVR users use their machines. :)

Earl,

It appears that you are a passive DVR user, which is likely the reason you don't miss dual live buffers and MRV. I understand, I am about 80% passive (Season Pass recorded program watching) and 20% active (dual live buffer switching and MRV, and media server use [long-term storage of programming] with MRV).

I don't use the dual live buffers, except for 4-5 months a year, and then only on Saturdays and Sundays. But then I use the dual live buffers to watch two College or NFL games at the same time, which is likely what most but not all use it for.

An about a 90 minute live buffer, I have actually used Bufferhack on my five DirecTiVos and have them currently set to dual 60 minute live buffers, which works great. I view a 90 minute live buffer as a waste of 30 minutes of storage, but then again if you have lots of storage, who cares.

Agreed, I don't use dual live buffers everyday, but I do use MRV everyday. MRV allows me to record programs on multiple machines without interrupting the other family members use of those machines and their watching of live TV and it allows me and other family members to view those programs on any of the DirecTiVos. Actually a R15 without MRV would be a bigger loss, which of course neither the R15 or the HR20 have MRV capability or almost none of the capability that hacked DirecTiVos have.

[drew2k]

So, I was right, dual live buffers for the R15 is likely never going to happen, because it would be too big of a change to the core software (as I said, a design failure). When the R15 was first released, DirecTV said that the R15 was made to enhance the watching of live TV, but IMHO they really screwed this one up!One of the few things I tried on the R15 at my family's house was the interactive feature, and I can say without hesitation that that feature screws up the use of buffering on the R15. You could hae a 45 minute buffer behind you, but the moment you press one of the interactive buttons, you lose the buffer without warning. We found that we couldn't get the interactive features to work when we were behind in the buffer, but I'm sure the interactive features had something to do with the decision to only have one tuner buffered at a time.

[drew2k]

I don't use the dual live buffers, except for 4-5 months a year, and then only on Saturdays and Sundays. But then I use the dual live buffers to watch two College or NFL games at the same time, which is likely what most but not all use it for.

An about a 90 minute live buffer, I have actually used Bufferhack on my five DirecTiVos and have them currently set to dual 60 minute live buffers, which works great. I view a 90 minute live buffer as a waste of 30 minutes of storage, but then again if you have lots of storage, who cares.The R15 has another feature where if you are live and leave the receiver on PAUSE, the buffer is extended to 4 hours. :eek:

DirecTV saw need to have a four-hour buffer, but not dual-tuner buffers? I am mystified.

[smak]

It's a deal breaker for me. It's not just for sports, it's for anything live whether it's news, sports, awards show, etc...

It's a huge feature, probably one a lot of people don't even realize how much they use it.

And just recording both buffers is not a solution, that could be 25% of your recording space on HD.

If i decide to sit down and watch two live events that are on at the same time, it's almost impossible on the HR20.

-smak-

[HiDefGator]

I wonder if one of the reasons for not supporting dual buffers is just to make the unit more responsive. I know with the HR10 if both tuners are on HD channels adding a season pass can take forever and a day. Limiting it to recording a single video stream would free up a lot of bandwidth.

[kturcotte]

Throw some more RAM in there-they're charging enough to rent it

[az_double_eagle]

<snip>

Now you want people to record two sports programs, but why make people with full wish-lists erase well over 6 hours of previously recorded titles when a simple dual-tuner buffer solution would suffice?

Amen, brother. Thanks for your excellent opinion, drew2k. :up:

[az_double_eagle]

Please..... it should "pain" anyone to disagree with me....

<snip>



Earl, I know you really meant "shouldn't" instead of "should" above.

Thanks for straightening this newbie poster out. I tremendously appreciate your insight and opinions, and believe me, I am always going to do what is best for me.

[az_double_eagle]

Well, make up your mind, because "nuts" and "evangelists" typically have completely different definitions. Of course some "evangelists" are also "nuts", and some "nuts" are also "evangelists", but they are not necessarily the same thing, most of the time.

"Evangelist" defines as a "zealous advocate" of something, if you leave out the religious overtones. I'ts even in my sig because it seemed like that particular definition fit. I think life without zealous advocacy would be both wasteful and boring, so I wear it as a badge of honor.

I guess "nuts" could also be defined that way, when you think about it. You know, "sports nut", "movie nut". When you come right down to it, collectively they are all "nuts", even though many of them may not actually be "nuts" (other definition). But maybe "nuts" is to easy to misconstrue. Or not.

Maybe I will just change my sig to "Nuts", and then wear THAT as a badge of honor. :)

Thanks for ultimately understanding what I was trying to say, Tyrone. Makes me feel welcome in the forum!

[ebonovic]

Earl, I know you really meant "shouldn't" instead of "should" above.

Thanks for straightening this newbie poster out. I tremendously appreciate your insight and opinions, and believe me, I am always going to do what is best for me.


No... I really ment that it SHOULD pain anyone to disagree with me....
I am Earl after all....

And if you believe that... I have some Land in New Orleans for sale...

:D

[tnedator]

It's the end of the world as we know it...

Seriously... I understand the dual buffer concept.... but after 6 years of using a DVR... 95% of what I watch is pre-recorded...

Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?


I was very bummed when I heard about this. I first heard about it from a friend who just had a bad Tivo swapped out with the DirecTV DVR (non Tivo) and he was telling me about some of the differences, and one was no dual buffer. It turns out he and I do the same thing.

On sundays, we watch multiple NFL pregame shows. Since I am a Bronco fan, I generally switch back and forth between ESPN and CBS. I will watch one for ten minutes or so, with the other buffer paused, and then swap, now pausing the one I was just watching and start watching the one I had paused. Is it the end of the world? No, but not having the ability to do that will definately impact how I watch TV on Sunday mornings.

Also, I was telling my wife about the new HD DVR based on your review, and was going through some of the differences. I got to the part about buffers and said, "you probably won't care about this, but it doesn't have live buffers on both tuners." She asked me what I meant, I explained and she told me she used them. I said, "your kidding, when do you use both buffers and pause?"

She said sometimes when she is watching a movie life on the weekend, and doesn't feel like sitting through the commercials, she will pause the move and channel surf on the other buffer, or find a TV show that is interesting and bounce back and forth between them.

I was shocked that she used it. For people that never had it or used it, it probably won't matter much. For those of us that have used the dual buffers, it will suck having it gone.

[T-Wolves]

No dual buffers = no NBA League Pass for me.

[hoopsrgreat]

Here is a great example.
I had put an SDtivo in my room but only had 1 line running into my bedroom at the time. This essentially meant NO DUAL LIVE BUffers as I had only 1 tuner. Life sucked each night I went to the bedroom and watched TV. Having it in the living room and not in the bedroom really sucked. After having it, you cant go back... it is that simple.



No Dual buffers and no way I swtich to the HR20.
ONLY, and I mean ONLY if they force us to make the switch due to content issues will I make a switch. And I would also consider other content providers if I could get dual buffers elsewhere.

It is not for just sports, it is for EVERYTHING when watching nonrecorded shows.

[vaporware]

I've been with directv for almost 12 years now. I hate to say it but when the time comes that they switch to mpeg4 in my market and basically tell me if I want hd programming I have to use their dvr, that lacks dual buffers, I'll most likely move on to dish. *shudder*

[drew2k]

By the way - someone earlier posted that if you want the "functionality" of dual-tuners with the HR20 (or the R15, for that matter), then just get two HR20s (or R15s). This would imply you have them in the same room, but guess what? DirecTV didn't build an option into the R15 or HR20 to change Remote Control IDs.

The HR20 does support RF remotes, so about the only way this would work is to set one HR20 to use IR and the other to use RF. This means you may not be able to use your super-duper all-in-one look-how-simple-life-got fancy remote control, like the Harmony 676 or Harmon Kardon TC30.

I asked Earl if DirecTV had any plans to add support for multiple IR remote IDs, but he did not sound as if that was on DirecTVs radar.

[BrettStah]

By the way - someone earlier posted that if you want the "functionality" of dual-tuners with the HR20 (or the R15, for that matter), then just get two HR20s (or R15s). This would imply you have them in the same room, but guess what? DirecTV didn't build an option into the R15 or HR20 to change Remote Control IDs.
According to Earl's reply to my question on that topic in this post (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=631753&postcount=503), it is possible to have two HR20s in the same room, using the IR mode only if desired. Not as cool as the Tivos though.

[drew2k]

According to Earl's reply to my question on that topic in this post (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=631753&postcount=503), it is possible to have two HR20s in the same room, using the IR mode only if desired. Not as cool as the Tivos though.My apologies. I'm suffering faulty recall of both a question I asked Earl and his response (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=630248&postcount=69) from quite awhile back. It was THREE units in the same room (which happens to be MY situation) that would not work using only the IR codes. As you posted, you'd have to mix in the RF remote to use more than two boxes in the same room ...

[BrettStah]

My apologies. I'm suffering faulty recall of both a question I asked Earl and his response (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=630248&postcount=69) from quite awhile back. It was THREE units in the same room (which happens to be MY situation) that would not work using only the IR codes. As you posted, you'd have to mix in the RF remote to use more than two boxes in the same room ...
I also have three (used to be four) DirecTivos in the same room. I figure that if I decide to go with the HR20 sometime next year (when New Orleans HD locals are supposed to be available via satellite and more national HD channels are also available) that I would get one HR20 to start with, while keeping my HD-DirecTivo too. Then as more and more content was available in HD, I'd replace that with another HR20, while keeping at least one SD DirecTivo for stuff that's not in HD. At least, that's the rough idea. I'm still not sure (and luckily don't need to decide now) what exactly I'm going to do - I could go with a couple of Series 3 Tivos, or if Cox cable releases the announced Tivo version of their DVR in the New Orleans market, I could get away from DirecTV completely.

[drew2k]

I also have three (used to be four) DirecTivos in the same room. I figure that if I decide to go with the HR20 sometime next year (when New Orleans HD locals are supposed to be available via satellite and more national HD channels are also available) that I would get one HR20 to start with, while keeping my HD-DirecTivo too. Then as more and more content was available in HD, I'd replace that with another HR20, while keeping at least one SD DirecTivo for stuff that's not in HD. At least, that's the rough idea. I'm still not sure (and luckily don't need to decide now) what exactly I'm going to do - I could go with a couple of Series 3 Tivos, or if Cox cable releases the announced Tivo version of their DVR in the New Orleans market, I could get away from DirecTV completely.I'll likely be following in your footsteps...

Hopefully by the time I'm ready to retire my HR10-250s I'll either have already decided to go with cable and multiple S3 units, or I'll still be with DirecTV which will have added support for multiple IR IDs on the HR20, or ... LOL ... DirecTV will have some form of MRV available and I won't need to worry about IR IDs! (You never know ... I'm talking three years, if I am lucky enough to get that from my HR10 boxes!)

[Bob_Newhart]

According to Earl's reply to my question on that topic in this post (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=631753&postcount=503), it is possible to have two HR20s in the same room, using the IR mode only if desired. Not as cool as the Tivos though.
Seems like having dual tuners in one tivo would be more convenient and cheaper than 2 different tivos in the same room

[BrettStah]

Seems like having dual tuners in one tivo would be more convenient and cheaper than 2 different tivos in the same room
I wouldn't get two HR20s for the ability to swap between two live shows - but the ability to do so would be a side benefit of having two HR20s that would be acquired for the recording capabilities (4 things at a time, versus 2 at a time with one HR20).

[TonyD79]

I wonder if one of the reasons for not supporting dual buffers is just to make the unit more responsive. I know with the HR10 if both tuners are on HD channels adding a season pass can take forever and a day. Limiting it to recording a single video stream would free up a lot of bandwidth.

Doubt it since the HR20 does its bookkeeping in the background. You set up a series link and it says "OK" and moves on but it continues to update the to do list in the background.

I would prefer it do everything at the moment I ask it but don't want it to take as long as the HR10, holding me up from stuff. I guess the background feature is a reasonable compromise but it can't be a responsiveness issue.

It is just bad market research. Pure and simple.

[TonyD79]

I can see how not having dual live buffers may be a dealbreaker for some, but I'm in Earl's camp on this issue. I rarely watch live TV anymore and the vast majority of the programming I watch is prerecorded on the drive.

There's a very simple fixes for not having dual live buffers, some of which have already been mentioned. Here's my list of suggestions:

1. Record everything you want to watch. Check the program guide ahead of time to make sure everything is set up to be recorded instead of counting on a buffer to pick up what you've missed. If you know there's more than one game being aired that you want to watch, record them both and watch them at your leisure. Just because you're too lazy to check the guide doesn't mean the DVR should be upgraded to match your lifestyle. Still, if it's a feature you can't live without then let DTV know about it and keep your fingers crossed.

2. Get two DVRs and switch between them. If your TV has PIP then you can set it up so you'll see both DVRs on the screen at the same time. I've got three HDTivos and a regular DTivo and I still don't rely on buffers for what I want to watch.

I rarely use the buffers on my HDTivos since I record everything I watch, with but a few exceptions. I did use it the other day because something caught my eye when I turned on the TV so I set it up to record and the buffer caught the beginning of the segment. Just take a few minutes each day to set up shows for viewing later if you don't already have them set up with season passes. I never watch shows in real time anymore, except for sports. My HDTivos allow me to set my own viewing schedule rather than be a slave to the network's time slots.

Very ignorant post. You clearly have no idea why people use dual buffers and yet you lecture us on how to not use them. Your idea to record everything (gee, I watch up to SIX football games on Sundays using dual buffers creatively. How do I record SIX games) is so wrong I don't know where to start. Disk space limitations, long times on the guides for dedicated channels like NFL and MLB channels, the difficulty in changing games on one of the buffers...you would have me stop a recording then start another just to change games...not to mention the FACT that the HR20 would jump to live TV rather than where I was in watching).

Your suggestion for more DVRs doesn't take into account that some of us DO HAVE more than DVR. I have had two DirecTiVos and use ALL FOUR BUFFERS, thank you very much. Now you want us to spend more money because DTV messed up with its strongest audience...the sports audience.

Finally, "slave to network's time slots?" You like watching live events on recording? I don't. For studio and pre-produced shows, fine. But I watch sports and news LIVE. When a big storm hits us, I used the dual buffers to catch all the local news. I don't record cause I am channel hopping.

You watch TV the way you watch it and I watch it my way. I happen to be a big spender with DTV and a big reason is the way I can watch TV. Including dual buffers. I won't tell you what to do, don't tell me.

[jcricket]

Personally, we watch most of our regular shows via timeshifting, but I still spend plenty of time channel surfing and enjoying the dual buffers when I have down time. It's just something I've gotten used to, and I would really hate to lose it. This is doubly true for when there's a major breaking news event.

My wife wouldn't care (doesn't really channel surf), but I'm much more of a TV watcher than her.

If I had 4 tuners and a terabyte of space, I'd probably season-pass a lot more of the shows I only watch occasionally and add some wishlists, then the dual buffers might not matter as much.

[psaville]

I just got my new HR20... My Philips DSR7000 stopped working and this was available as an upgrade.

I have to say - it sucks without the Dual Buffers - I hope they send a software update to add this in...

In addition to all the previously mentioned reasons for having dual tuners - keeping the peace between my wife and I is probably the best reason. We can sit together in the evening and watch two shows... One of each of our choices - tolerate the other's show during your own shows commercial breaks and everyone is happy!

Yeah - if I would have known this before my other DVR died... I probably would have been happy with the HR10. Oh well... HD picture is great though!

[JimSpence]

Okay, my apologies if my reply (#2) was answered in previous posts. I just glanced through them. This is in reply to post #3.
Even then it doesn't save your paused location. So if you're 30 mins behind on tuner 1, you switch to tuner 2, then back to tuner 1 you're live.

Caveat: That's what I've read. I do not currently have the HR20.What I wasn't clear about was that you could record both tuners and then start watching each from the beginning. Then when you switch to the other one the stopping point is maintained for when you return to it. Yes, this is not as convenient as just swapping tuners, but it should work. Just do the switching quickly or you'll see part of the show "live". :)

I'll repeat my thought, that this is stupid to not have two buffers. :mad:

[bigcb37]

I just installed my HR20 and I can deal with how it works for the most part. In fact, some features I like better then Tivo. HOWEVER the no dual buffers is really bad.

When I watch live tv I dont want to see commercials. I have seen more commericals in the last week with the HR 20 then the last year with the Tivo. I'll never watch NFLST with the HR20 , I'll still use my HR10. I like to be able to have both buffers iun use and then be able to switch between games I am buffering as well, with the HR20 you would have to constantly record all the games every time you switch channels and then go back and delete all the recordings.

Also the FF and 30 sec slip is awful....way too slow. Otherwise I can deal.

I emailed Directv to add my vote. I suggest EVERYONE that has a problem with the lack of Dual Buffers follows suit.

[Citivas]

It's the end of the world as we know it...

Seriously... I understand the dual buffer concept.... but after 6 years of using a DVR... 95% of what I watch is pre-recorded... Pretty much only sporting events is where I use dual buffers... and even then not that often, as I don't subscribe to any of the extended sports packages... and I am pretty content on watching the Bears and the White Sox games when they are on... and let either the internet or score ticker fill me in on other games on interest

Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?

I can understand maybe two News stations when there is a braking story...

They are working on the "save" point for the recordings, and they are discussing bringing the dual buffers to the HR20...

I hope the DTV engineer don't think like you and low prioritize this fix... I use the 2 buffers probably more than 95% of the other features. I would give up wish lists, favorites, whatever, before I would give up dual tuners. I think my default way of watching is to find some History Channel-like program and something completely different, like a movie I liked on HBO-HD or something, then pause the movie, watch the History channel until a commercial, puase, cut over to HBO, skip ahead to the good part, watch until the next boring part, pause, cut back to history channel, etc... You've gotta love how a DVR has changed behavior...

[ebonovic]

I hope the DTV engineer don't think like you and low prioritize this fix... I use the 2 buffers probably more than 95% of the other features. I would give up wish lists, favorites, whatever, before I would give up dual tuners. I think my default way of watching is to find some History Channel-like program and something completely different, like a movie I liked on HBO-HD or something, then pause the movie, watch the History channel until a commercial, puase, cut over to HBO, skip ahead to the good part, watch until the next boring part, pause, cut back to history channel, etc... You've gotta love how a DVR has changed behavior...

So to the DirecTV enginneers.... halt fixing the other issues, make Dual Buffers the priority..... nope... none of those other issues matter... it is dual buffers is the most important thing...

Yes.. .I know there are some recordings that don't work correctly.... No, don't worry about the unit crashing under those circumstances... it isn't as important as dual buffers.

Yes... no stop working in the network features, and the eSATA... everyone... just work on dual buffers....

You... delete that OTA code... and get to work on the dual buffers...

[/sarcasim]

Listen... DirecTV has learned over the last year, and very much so in the last month how important Dual Buffers are to this a very important segment of the DVR users...

They are evaluating how to add the dual buffers to the unit, to achieve some sort of compromise between what their goals where for THEIR dvr, and what has presented it self as pretty much the "key" difference between the TiVo product and theirs.... closely followed by OTA....

They have listened, and they are working on it....
Is it going to be this week? nope.
This year.... don't know... ever... not guaranteed....

[ElVee]

As another of the endless supply of software engineers on this forum, I could almost understand having no buffers rather than just one. If they hadn't thought of a buffer from the start, then so be it.

But since they did, if you coded one, why not just code one for each tuner from the get go?

Not to say that the fix would be so easy now, but from the beginning, it would have been a snap.

Oh well.

[bigcb37]

So to the DirecTV enginneers.... halt fixing the other issues, make Dual Buffers the priority..... nope... none of those other issues matter... it is dual buffers is the most important thing...

Yes.. .I know there are some recordings that don't work correctly.... No, don't worry about the unit crashing under those circumstances... it isn't as important as dual buffers.

Yes... no stop working in the network features, and the eSATA... everyone... just work on dual buffers....

You... delete that OTA code... and get to work on the dual buffers...

[/sarcasim]


IMHO Except for fixing obvious bugs (crashing etc), I'd rather have Dual Buffers over everyone of the features you listed. More then folders, networking, OTA, anything...

[Sir_winealot]

IMHO Except for fixing obvious bugs (crashing etc), I'd rather have Dual Buffers over everyone of the features you listed. More then folders, networking, OTA, anything...

+1

[talbain]

Dual buffers is the only "dealbreaker" as far as I'm concerned.

the fact that it randomly drops recordings is fine with you, then?

[talbain]

They are evaluating how to add the dual buffers to the unit, to achieve some sort of compromise between what their goals where for THEIR dvr, and what has presented it self as pretty much the "key" difference between the TiVo product and theirs.... closely followed by OTA....


what exactly needs to be evaluated? you hit pause, press the down arrow, hit pause, press the down arrow again, hit play. repeat as necessary. a grade school student could write code for that...

[drew2k]

As another of the endless supply of software engineers on this forum, I could almost understand having no buffers rather than just one. If they hadn't thought of a buffer from the start, then so be it.

But since they did, if you coded one, why not just code one for each tuner from the get go?

Not to say that the fix would be so easy now, but from the beginning, it would have been a snap.

Oh well.I may be wrong but I recall speculation that DirecTV designed only one buffer because of the hardware used and trying not to infringe on any of TiVo's patents?

[ebonovic]

what exactly needs to be evaluated? you hit pause, press the down arrow, hit pause, press the down arrow again, hit play. repeat as necessary. a grade school student could write code for that...

DirecTV had reasons for not implementing Dual Buffers...

So they are identifying a method that fits with in "THEIR" goals for "THEIR" DVR product, and still get this feature to "THEIR" consumers.

BTW... I am pretty certain that "any" grade school student couldn't write the code for an integrated product... I am sure there are some... though

[Howie]

DirecTV had reasons for not implementing Dual Buffers...


BTW... I am pretty certain that "any" grade school student couldn't write the code for an integrated product... I am sure there are some... though

Maybe that kid that graduated from Virginia in one year could have done it when he was in grade school.

[bigcb37]

DirecTV had reasons for not implementing Dual Buffers...


I wonder what those reasons could have been. I dont think its tivo patent issues. Maybe there is something there form a programming standpoint that I dont understand, but from a useability standpoint I dont see anyway someone could use this DVR and think that it doesnt need dual buffers or is somehow better without it.

[drew2k]

There was also speculation on DBSTalk that the other tuner, when not recording, was dedicated to recording VOD or other such content, and that's why DirecTV wanted it unavailable for buffering. However, Earl I believe said that was not true.

[Howie]

I wonder what those reasons could have been.

There were rumors that D*TV wanted to use the 2nd tuner for VOD purposes when it wasn't recording something specifically scheduled by the user.

[jmoak]

BUT --- Could this be a licensing issue? ie- Dual-buffer patent is owned by someone other than DirecTV (Tivo?), that they don't want to pay licensing fees to OR risk (future) litigation?I don't think so. SA's 8300hd (passport sftwre) has dual buffers and you can pause one, switch to the other and not loose the paused position on either. It keeps the full hour buffer, too. The remote is a honkin' mess, but it is a one button swap.
Or is this just a classic problem of deficient s/w development requirements?ehhh.... no comment.
;)

[bigcb37]

There were rumors that D*TV wanted to use the 2nd tuner for VOD purposes when it wasn't recording something specifically scheduled by the user.

Makes sense for Directv but not the user....I'm sure they could do that other times like a 2am or something...like how Tivo gets the showcase info...

[drew2k]

I don't think so. SA's 8300hd (passport sftwre) has dual buffers and you can pause one, switch to the other and not loose the paused position on either. It keeps the full hour buffer, too. The remote is a honkin' mess, but it is a one button swap.I have the 8300HD and have never gotten this to work... What button are you supposed to use?

[drew2k]

Makes sense for Directv but not the user....I'm sure they could do that other times like a 2am or something...like how Tivo gets the showcase info...I'm not sure if I'm on "ignore" :)

I did write about this rumor in the post before the one you quoted and also wrote that Earl said the other tuner is NOT used for VOD.

[Sir_winealot]

I think it was simply a case of 2 of you posting the same thing, at the exact same time ...and your post was overlooked.

Unless of course, he has you on ignore. ;)

[TonyD79]

I have the 8300HD and have never gotten this to work... What button are you supposed to use?

Depends on the software/version. I can't do that with SARA/Something old on Comcast.

I think he is using Passport?

[TonyD79]

DirecTV had reasons for not implementing Dual Buffers...


Maybe if we knew what that reason was, we would stop bitching (as much)...

[Howie]

Maybe if we knew what that reason was, we would stop bitching (as much)...

Or maybe we'd start bitching MORE.

[TonyD79]

Or maybe we'd start bitching MORE.

Maybe but at least it would be accurate bitching...

[bigcb37]

I'm not sure if I'm on "ignore" :)

I did write about this rumor in the post before the one you quoted and also wrote that Earl said the other tuner is NOT used for VOD.


Dont worry Drew...I was just lazy and quoted the most recent post ...you still get a gold star for getting your point on there first! :)

[NYHeel]

I have the 8300HD and have never gotten this to work... What button are you supposed to use?

Back 3 years ago when I had the TWC DVR when I was in New York, you used the picture in picture swap button to switch tuners. I actually stumbled upon the dual buffer thing through the pip and thought it was really cool. I still think it's a necessary feature of any dual tuner dvr.

What Earl said is true. 90% of what I watch is prerecorded. But that remaining 10% is much more important to me than the 90%. That is the live sports that I watch. I always order the NCAA Tournament package and having dual tuners is essential. Also, when there are 2 football games on, either through Sunday Ticket or just 2 local games. Also, if I'm watching a baseball game on Sunday afternoon during the same time as a football game. Again it may not be what I watch the most often but it's definitely the most important things I watch.

I've said this before but again I don't care about Directv's goals and their limitations. I only care about 3 things: 1)the quality of the picture on my screen, 2) the quality and features of the equipment and 3) the cost. That's it. Well maybe customer service counts a drop. Fact remains that if Directv doesn't offer me the features and quality that I want and I can get them elsewhere at a similar cost, then I'm gone. I don't about the reasons Directv can't provide them.

[Mark Lopez]

Once again I find it amusing how the Tivo fanatics always say that no one ever watches live TV any more and will chastise anyone who says they do. But yet now they rant about another brand DVR that lacks the feature that is only useful for live TV viewing. Go figure.

[Avenger]

I get the sense that the overall bulk of posters on the topic feel that DirecTV's "newest, latest, and greatest" product shouldn't lack basic functionality that subs have come to expect from lesser, older machines.

To state it another way, an "upgrade" (in this case, from the HR10-250 to the HR20) should NOT result in a loss of any functionality whatsoever. In every way, it should truly be an upgrade -- more functionality, faster response times, etc. It should certainly be capable of doing everything that a six-year-old SAT-T60 is capable of -- including dual buffers. To do otherwise is really akin to "upgrading" my 42" plasma panel to a 19" color TV -- and charging me for it, to boot!

Now, I almost never use the buffers myself, as I record nearly everything I watch and view it later. Despite that, I would not purchase the HR20 without the dual buffers. Why? Well, Earl, you asked "what's the next dealbreaker?" For me, the next dealbreaker is anything that causes me to lose ANY of the functionality I currently enjoy with the HR10. Period.

I think that most of the posters on this board (not just this topic) already view the HR20 as the bastard stepchild at the DirecTivo family reunion. In light of that, DirecTV's decision to design the replacement product for their former flagship STB that lacks the most basic functionality of its predecessor (OTA, dual buffers, etc) is astoundingly short-sighted and stupid. DirecTv shouldn't stop working on other bug fixes and development to fix this moronic decision. They should simply hire enough people to DO THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

Those arseholes at DirecTV wanted to do all of this crap in-house. We certainly didn't ask them to take on that responsibility. But now they have -- so let THEM bear the expense of getting it right. ALL of these things should be a priority over there. This is a major multinational corporation. I have confidence that they can find the resources to git 'r done.

[Sir_winealot]

Once again I find it amusing how the Tivo fanatics always say that no one ever watches live TV any more and will chastise anyone who says they do. But yet now they rant about another brand DVR that lacks the feature that is only useful for live TV viewing. Go figure.


"Chastise?"

.........Link please.


:rolleyes: Damn them TiVo fantics. I hear that most of them have 'bad breath,' too.



;)

[jmoak]

I have the 8300HD and have never gotten this to work... What button are you supposed to use?Back 3 years ago when I had the TWC DVR when I was in New York, you used the picture in picture swap button to switch tuners.That's it!
Bottom of the big honkin' remote, second button from the left, labeled "SWAP".

Passport Echo 1.8.112 running on PowerTV platform, 6.14.43.3sp

[Mark Lopez]

In light of that, DirecTV's decision to design the replacement product for their former flagship STB that lacks the most basic functionality of its predecessor (OTA, dual buffers, etc) is astoundingly short-sighted and stupid.

What you folks keep forgetting is that their goal wasn't to design a replacement, but to create a unit for all of the folks who don't have any DVR yet. Thus there is no compelling reason to include every feature of previous DVRs.

[TonyD79]

What you folks keep forgetting is that their goal wasn't to design a replacement, but to create a unit for all of the folks who don't have any DVR yet. Thus there is no compelling reason to include every feature of previous DVRs.

If that were true, they would keep TiVo as an alternative.

They are designing a replacement.

[Mark Lopez]

If that were true, they would keep TiVo as an alternative.

They are designing a replacement.

Why would they keep it as an alternative when it doesn't support MPEG4 which is their new format?

The HR20 is a 'next generation' (i.e. MPEG4) unit. Call it a replacement if you want, but their main goal is to put a DVR into all of the households that don't already have one, not specifically to replace the current unit. The point being, appeasing current DVR users is lower on the priority list than getting them into the rest of the households.

[vikingguy]

Why would they keep it as an alternative when it doesn't support MPEG4 which is their new format?

The HR20 is a 'next generation' (i.e. MPEG4) unit. Call it a replacement if you want, but their main goal is to put a DVR into all of the households that don't already have one, not specifically to replace the current unit. The point being, appeasing current DVR users is lower on the priority list than getting them into the rest of the households.

Appeasing should be the number 1 priority it is a lot easier to keep a customer than to find a new one. I will tell direct tv with my wallet if no dual buffers I will not reorder sunday ticket next season. With out dual buffers sunday ticket is worthless since I get the home team OTA.

[Citivas]

Why would they keep it as an alternative when it doesn't support MPEG4 which is their new format?

The HR20 is a 'next generation' (i.e. MPEG4) unit. Call it a replacement if you want, but their main goal is to put a DVR into all of the households that don't already have one, not specifically to replace the current unit. The point being, appeasing current DVR users is lower on the priority list than getting them into the rest of the households.

And you're getting this from where? Can you link to DirecTV's statements to this effect -- i.e. that they are not trying to satisfy the exitsing DirecTiVo part of their market but only focusing on the untapped DVR market potential?

That's not what they told me. They could easily have worked with TiVo to make it handle MPEG-4. They wanted to cut TiVo from the mix, just like the cable cos, but creating an alternative for the DVR users. And that means, yes, they generally do want to try and satisfy the existing DVR base. If you have something from D* that contradicts this, bring it on...

[drew2k]

Dont worry Drew...I was just lazy and quoted the most recent post ...you still get a gold star for getting your point on there first! :)

I was't reaching for the gold star, but I'll take it! :D :up:

I was really only trying to say that Earl already affirmed on DBSTalk that DirecTV was not using the spare/unoccupied tuner for VOD, etc.

[drew2k]

Back 3 years ago when I had the TWC DVR when I was in New York, you used the picture in picture swap button to switch tuners. I actually stumbled upon the dual buffer thing through the pip and thought it was really cool. I still think it's a necessary feature of any dual tuner dvr. OT: Re: SA8300HD: I have SARA, not sure what version right now. I've tried using the PIP buttons to swap tuners, as you suggest, but as soon as I press PIP SWAP to move the paused tuner from forefront to PIP window, it goes back to live. No matter what I've tried, I can not get a paused live buffer to sit in the PIP window. :( (One of the reasons I truly love my TiVo ...)

[ebonovic]

I was really only trying to say that Earl already affirmed on DBSTalk that DirecTV was not using the spare/unoccupied tuner for VOD, etc.

I don't think I said that exactly....
They are most definently using the background tuner for VOD and other things..
BUT ONLY when it is not in use...

That can be seen with the R15.

What I said, I think... don't re-quote on my quote, and I reserve the right for this to be an updated statement.

Is that VOD was only one of the factors in why there is no dual buffers.

[dtebbe]

It's the end of the world as we know it...

Seriously... I understand the dual buffer concept.... but after 6 years of using a DVR... 95% of what I watch is pre-recorded... Pretty much only sporting events is where I use dual buffers... and even then not that often, as I don't subscribe to any of the extended sports packages... and I am pretty content on watching the Bears and the White Sox games when they are on... and let either the internet or score ticker fill me in on other games on interest

Who watches TWO sitcoms at once? Or TWO dramas at once? or one of each?

I can understand maybe two News stations when there is a braking story...

They are working on the "save" point for the recordings, and they are discussing bringing the dual buffers to the HR20...

I regularly use two buffers to avoid commercials. I'll watch two live shows that are on at the same time and pause one when commercials come on, and switch to the other. Then when commercials come on again I pause, jump over to the other.. skip thru the commercials.. and watch until the next commercial break. I hate friggin' commercials.

I've even got to where I record football games and start watching them about an hour after game time, skipping thru all the commercials and halftime, then usually catching up to real time with about 10min to go in the 4th quarter. I sure get a lot more done on Sunday... and don't have to watch 5000 gay Coors Light commercials.

DT

[talbain]

Why would they keep it as an alternative when it doesn't support MPEG4 which is their new format?

The HR20 is a 'next generation' (i.e. MPEG4) unit. Call it a replacement if you want, but their main goal is to put a DVR into all of the households that don't already have one, not specifically to replace the current unit. The point being, appeasing current DVR users is lower on the priority list than getting them into the rest of the households.

well, the hr10 (tivo unit) is discontinued, is no longer available for purchase from directv and was their only hd dvr. yeah, i'd say this new unit is a replacement...

[Mark Lopez]

That's not what they told me. They could easily have worked with TiVo to make it handle MPEG-4.

LOL. The HR10 does not have the hardware necessary to handle MPEG4. Thus it would never happen. Now, could they have worked with Tivo to create a new MPEG4 DVR? Sure. But why pay Tivo licensing fees when they can create their own. The possible loss of a relatively few Tivo fanatics is far less than what they would have had to pay Tivo in the long haul.

Again, my point was that some of the Tivo folks seem to think that they are DirecTVs only customers and they are the only ones that matter.

As for the dual buffer issue, it doesn't matter to me. I rarely flip back and forth in such a manner as to need it. And since it's fairly easy to accidentally change the channel and dump a buffer anyway, I just hit record if it's really important to keep it intact. Problem solved. <shrug>

[Starrbuck]

As for the dual buffer issue, it doesn't matter to me. I rarely flip back and forth in such a manner as to need it. And since it's fairly easy to accidentally change the channel and dump a buffer anyway, I just hit record if it's really important to keep it intact.I do this all the time on accident as well! Just hit record and watch it that way. Not having two live buffers is not an issue.