Would it have been better for Series 3 to also work with cable boxes?

[gastrof]

I'm just wondering about people who still have cable boxes but not digital cable.

Who knows how long it'll be before there's a complete changeover.

Plus, some seem to have problems with cable cards, and exactly what they are is still in flux.

Should the Series 3 have been made to still work with cable boxes, have serial cable, IR blaster, etc?

(I know there's the series 2 Dual Tuner, but it won't give the OTA option, and can't record in HD.)

[jfh3]

No.

[bkdtv]

No.

The Series3 is for customers that want to replace their cable box with a fully-integrated DVR for cable (and/or off-air) that records all SD and HD digital channels at 100% original quality, with a very high level of usability and reliability, with twice the storage capacity of the typical cable DVR, and support for virtually unlimited capacity expansion using off-the-shelf external SATA drives.

[TiVo Troll]

I'm just wondering about people who still have cable boxes but not digital cable.

Who knows how long it'll be before there's a complete changeover.

Plus, some seem to have problems with cable cards, and exactly what they are is still in flux.

Should the Series 3 have been made to still work with cable boxes, have serial cable, IR blaster, etc?

(I know there's the series 2 Dual Tuner, but it won't give the OTA option, and can't record in HD.)

No, but Series 2 should have supported OTA ATSC STB tuners. Maybe TiVo will become enlightened (ha!) and there'll be a Series 2.5 in a year or two.

With the right deal TiVo would support almost anything. Unfortunately nobody's available to strike OTA deals with!

[CCourtney]

Uh, hell no.

There are now over 150K CableCARD users (it was 44K 1yr ago) The biggest problem was educating the tech's on how to enable them. Once they're enabled they're almost bullet proof ;)

If you went without the Digital Cable Tuning inside the box, you got to rely on the STB which has multiple concerns.

1.) IR blaster - too many f' ups happening here
2.) You need to rent Two STBs to get your HD feeds because you need to tune into two different channels. They're not going to give you a dual tuning STB (but they would let you get a dual tuning DVR, but not going to give you two feeds off of it.)
3.) How to get the HD feeds to the TiVo
a.) Firewire - yeah, have you tried getting one setup even with STBs that are suppose to work, then you got 5C broadcast flag, ... No thanks
b.) HDMI/DVI - Not going to work HDCP baby
c.) Component Video - Sorry but I don't want Analog HD signal that's re-encoded again feeding my set. I want the HD transport stream.

CCourtney

[Shawn95GT]

No, but Series 2 should have supported OTA ATSC STB tuners. Maybe TiVo will become enlightened (ha!) and there'll be a Series 2.5 in a year or two.

With the right deal TiVo would support almost anything. Unfortunately nobody's available to strike OTA deals with!
I'm doing just that right now with all three of my S2s. You have to lie to your Tivo to do it, but it's acceptable so long a Dish carries your local channels ;).

I bet they could support a USB ATSC tuner to keep the S2s from becoming paper-weights.

My Voom boxes do the trick pretty nice until I can get a S3 or two here.

[megazone]

Adding A/V inputs and IR/serial control to the S3 would add complexity and product cost - and for what gain? Just how big of a market is there for an expensive box like the S3 for people who would insist on using a cable box or satellite receiver - when the quality would be no better than the S2DT. You wouldn't get dual-tuner without independent A/V inputs and dual-control outputs - more cost and complexity.

I doubt there is enough of a market there. The S3 will work with nearly all cable systems, analog or digital, leaving a small segment of the cable market with odd systems - A-B systems, etc.

[Gregor]

No. It would make the box too complex, more expensive, and most importantly, even later.

[bicker]

Yes. It would have made the Series 3 worth buying, IMHO.

[SullyND]

No. There is no point in doing so.

[Shawn95GT]

Yes. It would have made the Series 3 worth buying, IMHO.
The S2DT fills that niche. If you need cablecard / Dual digital tuners and/or want to be able to record HD from Cable or off-air, the S3 is the solution.

[vman41]

I'd say S3's would be obligated to support cable boxes only if the were they were digital boxes that could output an MPEG stream with firewire. I haven't researched cable boxes, are there any that do that?

[moyekj]

I'd say S3's would be obligated to support cable boxes only if the were they were digital boxes that could output an MPEG stream with firewire. I haven't researched cable boxes, are there any that do that? Yes, in fact FCC regulations require cable companies to supply a box with firewire output if a customer requests one. Also, the DCT64xx Motorola DVR boxes used by major cable companies have 2 firewire outputs that work and one is able to extract mpeg2 transport streams to a PC/Mac for channels without 5C (copy protection) enabled. There are also non-DVR Motorola boxes that have fiewire outputs. This could potentially be the solution to the S3 series working around SDV problem by adding a firewire input to the next version of S3. Note that one is able to tune the box via firewire as well so no IR blaster would be needed as part of such an enhancement.

[elrcastor]

Well, i think the point of the Series 3 is to avoid the CRAPPPY Cable Company DVR's!! So NO!!

[HDTiVo]

The correct answer is yes.

[Gregor]

I frankly don't see the point of an HD Tivo box controlling an external STB. It would either have to re-encode HD if it used component inputs, or deal with copy restrictions on HDMI (if their are any) Having 2 encoding processes going with dual tuners would require multiple CPUS and make a very expensive box.

To me, an HD box that only records one thing would be useless unless there was some sort of co-operative scheduling among single tuner boxes.

[classicsat]

The Series 3 as it is, is the most universal solution for an HD TiVo that will work with cable, and will work with OTA digital/analog also.

If you are adamant on using your cable STB, or are worred about how cablecard will pan out, stick to a Series 2, as that is your only TiVo solution, until the TiVo powered cable DVRs come to your town.

IMO, an digital/HD DVR (will have to be firewire) will need to be a separate product).

[gastrof]

I frankly don't see the point of an HD Tivo box controlling an external STB. It would either have to re-encode HD if it used component inputs, or deal with copy restrictions on HDMI (if their are any)...

Actually, what was meant was non-digital cable boxes on systems that still scramble channels below 100 and/or offer pay channels in that channel range.

"...people who still have cable boxes but not digital cable."

As for an HD TiVo not using a STB, what about HD televisions working with STB's?

Don' get me wrong in this-
I'm all for a device being able to do its job on its own, such as a TiVo being able to tune channels without having to control an external box...and occasionally failing to.

I LOVE the fact my current setup allows both TiVos to use their own tuners.

Every time someone mentions a "misfire" on the part of an IR blaster, and a wrong channel being recorded, I cringe. Would NOT want to be dependent on such a setup.

Some cable customers may have no choice, even now, tho'.

[bicker]

The S2DT fills that niche.No, it doesn't, since it doesn't record HD from a cable box as opposed to cable card. That's the niche I'm talking about.

[megazone]

No, it doesn't, since it doesn't record HD from a cable box as opposed to cable card. That's the niche I'm talking about.A niche TiVo doesn't feel is worth addressing, and I'd have to agree. One of the reasons I want an S3 is to NOT have any cable boxes. Especially not *2* for dual tuners.

You're talking about a segment of the market who would want to have cable boxes and TiVo, and not just get a cable DVR *or* just use CableCARD. I strongly doubt that's a large market to sell to.

[bkdtv]

No, it doesn't, since it doesn't record HD from a cable box as opposed to cable card. That's the niche I'm talking about.
That's not a niche Tivo can fill. There isn't technology they could use in their box to add that capability, unless you mean Firewire recording. Firewire output from cable STBs is notoriously unreliable due to firmware / software bugs.

[Gregor]

Actually, what was meant was non-digital cable boxes on systems that still scramble channels below 100 and/or offer pay channels in that channel range.

"...people who still have cable boxes but not digital cable."

As for an HD TiVo not using a STB, what about HD televisions working with STB's?

Don' get me wrong in this-
I'm all for a device being able to do its job on its own, such as a TiVo being able to tune channels without having to control an external box...and occasionally failing to.

I LOVE the fact my current setup allows both TiVos to use their own tuners.

Every time someone mentions a "misfire" on the part of an IR blaster, and a wrong channel being recorded, I cringe. Would NOT want to be dependent on such a setup.

Some cable customers may have no choice, even now, tho'.

I think what you're asking for is targeted to a very small market, Tivo needs to get a mass-market HD box out there. The S3 is the first step in that direction.

[Shawn95GT]

No, it doesn't, since it doesn't record HD from a cable box as opposed to cable card. That's the niche I'm talking about.
There isn't a consumer box on the market that will. Especially not at a sub $1000 price point.

[greenstork]

Doesn't one TiVo, do-it-all box, address the problem of converting a digital signal to analog and then back again. I understood this to be one of the major flaws of HD-TV currently -- that the signal gets converted a couple of times before you actually view it on your $2000 television.

I ask because I don't currently own an HD TV nd I've been waiting to "jump in" until the technology is a little more polished. It bothered me that the transition from 4:3 to 16:9 channels was far from seamless on HDTVs, and that HD channels have varying levels of compression and artifacting from different cable providers, and that so few channels are available in HD. I'm typically an early adopter, but haven't felt the need to spend thousands until the technology is a little farther along, opting to patiently wait on the sideline and follow the progress of the S3 and the LCD vs plasma duel.

Can anyone offer some insight into when we can expect more HD channels. Will it be a steady transition of the many hundred cable channels to HD over a long period of time (3-5 years)? Or will there be dozens more HD channels next year or something?

Since SD channels tend to look so lousy on most LCDs, I'm really hoping that if I decide to invest in a new TV soon, that I wouldn't have to tolerate a terrible picture for too long.

[bicker]

A niche TiVo doesn't feel is worth addressing, and I'd have to agree.Yup. Time will tell if the niches TiVo is going after will be big enough. One of the reasons I want an S3 is to NOT have any cable boxes. The main thing I need is a HD DVR.

I strongly doubt that's a large market to sell to.I believe that market is almost as large as the number of folks who have Series 2 TiVos today and have HDTVs.

[dbtom]

Yes.

For $800 I would think they could have kept this feature. I can't imagine the additional cost being above $30-- if that. There must already be an MPEG2 encoder in the box if they are recording analog cable. It would add complexity, but Tivo has been managing this complexity since the start. It would add a lot more flexibility for me personally.

I agree that it's not an ideal solution to have 2 boxes, but I'm going to need to keep a digital cable box for VOD anyway so might as well have Tivo use it too.

[ZeoTiVo]

Yes.

For $800 I would think they could have kept this feature. I can't imagine the additional cost being above $30-- if that. There must already be an MPEG2 encoder in the box if they are recording analog cable. It would add complexity, but Tivo has been managing this complexity since the start. It would add a lot more flexibility for me personally.

I agree that it's not an ideal solution to have 2 boxes, but I'm going to need to keep a digital cable box for VOD anyway so might as well have Tivo use it too.

why have TiVo use it as well ? why not just hook it straight to the TV?

then TiVo can record two things and you can watch Live TV if you feel like it or if there is a 3 way conflict.

and there is ongoing expense to TiVo to keep up with IR or serial codes and changes that occurr in STBs. Also the complexity of updating that code in both series 2 and series 3 bases. it is not just a one time fee of the stuff in the series 3 but an ongoing expense of supporting the feature over time.

Even a well ordered, easier to maintain OOP design still means you have to deal with timing issues coming into the box as the channel change goes out, the IR responds and then you wait on an outside box to chnage it and then the signal coming in on input to catch up with the change. anyone remember the blocking issues, anyone complain recently about the black screen or channel surfing gripes. Good riddance to all that and make the design completely internal. It just makes sense. How many times can it be said that niche can get a series 2.

[dbtom]

why have TiVo use it as well ? why not just hook it straight to the TV?

then TiVo can record two things and you can watch Live TV if you feel like it or if there is a 3 way conflict.

and there is ongoing expense to TiVo to keep up with IR or serial codes and changes that occurr in STBs. Also the complexity of updating that code in both series 2 and series 3 bases. it is not just a one time fee of the stuff in the series 3 but an ongoing expense of supporting the feature over time.


The chance of me having three conflicting programs is slim to none. Even if there was a conflict I would just record it on one of my 3 other Tivos and stream it (unless that feature is too niche too).

We can all speculate as to whether Tivo should or should not have kept a feature they have had since the start. You think it adds a lot of cost through hardware and support. I think it is a very small cost to add incremental users. They may have to be constantly updating guide codes, but they will need to do this anyway unless they are going to stop supporting older Tivos soon. I would assume a very high degree of code reuse. We will never know whether it would be a smart business decision since we won’t see the financials at a box level.

My personal situation

I’ve posted the same information in other threads but here is what I would like to do:

I was planning to run a setup where I use my cable box for extra channels (MTV, CNN, etc.) and use the OTA tuner in the Tivo for HD (at least for now). My reasoning is that:

1. OTA is generally superior HD quality for me
2. CableCard will cost me at least $40 to install vs 0 for the cable box
3. The monthly savings for CableCard will be less than $3 so it will be over a year before I make up the install cost
4. I'll need the cable box anyway to get onDemand
5. The only HD channels I get via cable that I don't get OTA, I use for live sports so it is of limited use

Also cable box support will save me if the cable card system ever breaks down. For example, if the CableCo switches to SDV, I could still use the cable box / Tivo Combination to record SD channels. It gives be a lot more future flexibility. While there are problems with a 2 box solution, I have accepted these problems and can manage it. I have no idea what problems the CableCard system will bring, but I am not naïve enough to think it will be a flawless solution.

Bottom Line

Having cable box support would make Tivo more useful to me. I’m someone who was planning to buy a Series 3 and not having cable box support makes me inclined to wait to see what a cable card equipped MCE PC will cost. Heck I would be happy if Tivo offered a USB IR dongle as an option and I could use the RF cable in for the cable box.

I may be a niche, but if an $800 DVR isn’t a niche product, I don’t know what is. Tivo has already said that the S3 is their high-end model so I would have hoped that they would keep the fallback cable box option and not try to save a couple of bucks.

[bicker]

why have TiVo use it as well ? Clearly, the answer is because TiVo is unable to control enough variable in the marketplace. If, as it appears they may have, put too much reliance of their solution on CableCard, then it was a bad decision.

[chandler1818]

of course. you're asking people to give up functionality (on demand, online PPV ordering) to use the tivo box. stupid decision.

[m_jonis]

I'll be in the great minority here. Yes, I think it would have been better if the S3 could support a cable STB. Assuming it didn't delay the product past this calendar year. Especially given that the cable companies (especially TW) will be implementing SDV and it'll be at least 2 years before CC 2.0 even attempts to address that issue.

[sommerfeld]

I'll be in the great minority here. Yes, I think it would have been better if the S3 could support a cable STB. Assuming it didn't delay the product past this calendar year.
Indeed.

"Would it have been better?"

can only be answered when you know the answer to some other questions:

How much longer are you prepared to wait? How much more are you willing to pay?

For me, additional cost and complexity to support external tuners isn't worth it either in time or in cash; I wouldn't take advantage of the feature. Heck, even the cablecard slots may be excess baggage for me -- with my Cable Co's current lineup, I'm not even likely to bother with cable cards since I get decent OTA HD reception where I live and the incremental cost to switch to a digital cable package is not worth the 2 or 3 additional HD channels I might watch.

[headless chicken]

What is OTA? On the air? Off the antenna?

[CCourtney]

Over The Air (Usually referring to ATSC signal to be specific)

[classicsat]

I'll be in the great minority here. Yes, I think it would have been better if the S3 could support a cable STB. Assuming it didn't delay the product past this calendar year. Especially given that the cable companies (especially TW) will be implementing SDV and it'll be at least 2 years before CC 2.0 even attempts to address that issue.

Given that component or HDMI input is a techical and/or economic impossibility, and ?Firewire is rather spotty (as I understande), why not get an S2 until they work things out?

[m_jonis]

Given that component or HDMI input is a techical and/or economic impossibility, and ?Firewire is rather spotty (as I understande), why not get an S2 until they work things out?

The S2 cannot record HD SDV channels.

Although that assumes that IF the Series 3 could work with an STB, that it would have the ability to record via component (don't know if anything with HDMI is possible?) And most cable companies have NOT implemented firewire on their boxes (they're only required by the FCC to enable it on ONE model, not all models).

Guess when it really comes down to it, we're all at the mercy of the cable companies and their lovely STB/monopoly.

[bicker]

Uh, I believe you're mistaken. S2 can record HD SDV channels, through a cable box, which is something the S3 will be unable to do.

[Shawn95GT]

A S2 can't record HD period. A SD downconvert from a HD source is no problem though. I do it every day.

[bicker]

As I said, the S2 can record HD channels, even if delivered through SDV. Of course the S2 cannot record it in HD... if it could there would be no need for a S3, eh? However, S3 still cannot record HD channels delivered through SDV, either in HD or downconverted.

[m_jonis]

Well according to your logic, a VCR can also record HD channels. Recording and HD channel in SD, is, IMO, not "recording an HD channel".

Perhaps you studied under the federal judge who declared that the DMCA does not violate the archival backup of a DVD because you could "still record it to a VCR tape"?

[bicker]

Gosh, it amazes me how rude and childish some folks get when their personal vision of the world is challenged.

Regardless, it's not "logic". It's implication. Series 2 can record content from a cable box. Series 3 can't. Get over it.

[SCSIRAID]

I'm just wondering about people who still have cable boxes but not digital cable.

Who knows how long it'll be before there's a complete changeover.

Plus, some seem to have problems with cable cards, and exactly what they are is still in flux.

Should the Series 3 have been made to still work with cable boxes, have serial cable, IR blaster, etc?

(I know there's the series 2 Dual Tuner, but it won't give the OTA option, and can't record in HD.)

My answer is YES. Not for HD.. but for SD.

TWC has implemented Digital Simulcast for SD which provides far superior PQ. There is a significant difference in PQ between my S2 recording via the tuner and via the S-Video input from the cablebox outputting from the Digital Simulcast. TWC CC provides the analog versions of basic cable... not the digital simulcast.

This is currently the dealbreaker for me and S3. That may change if early adopters indicate far superior SD recording with S3 vs S2.

[bkdtv]

This is currently the dealbreaker for me and S3. That may change if early adopters indicate far superior SD recording with S3 vs S2.
Why is this a deal breaker? The Series3 supports digital simulcast, which is different from SDV.

[SCSIRAID]

Why is this a deal breaker? The Series3 supports digital simulcast, which is different from SDV.

The cablecard channels 1-100 are the analog versions... not the digital simulcast. Unless you can manually remap the channels, the tivo wont know what to do with them.

[Norm_bone]

For what it's worth, put me down for a yes. I'm dissapointed that the Series 3 won't have an IR blaster. We have Dish, and I was looking forward to recording OTA in HD, even if we couldn't get HD for the Dish channels.

Regarding the points made about how long one would be willing to wait, what's another quarter after waiting a year and a half? Didn't they show the prototype Series 3 at 2005's CES?

As far as additional upkeep for IR blaster codes, since that's being done for the Series 2 and 2DT's, could it really be that much more to support the Series 3 as well?

I've never had much trouble with IR blaster, and I expected the Series 3 to add functionality, not take it away.

[bkdtv]

The cablecard channels 1-100 are the analog versions... not the digital simulcast. Unless you can manually remap the channels, the tivo wont know what to do with them.
The CableCard should apply the same remapping as the digital STB. It shouldn't matter what the analog channels are on.

[SCSIRAID]

The CableCard should apply the same remapping as the digital STB. It shouldn't matter what the analog channels are on.

I wish that were true... I have a CC in the TV and when tuning some of the 1-100 channels I can see analog 'stuff' like snow and wavy lines that are not present when viewing via the STB.

Someone also posted a TWC website which stated that Digital Simulcast was not available via Cablecard.

[SCSIRAID]

I wish that were true... I have a CC in the TV and when tuning some of the 1-100 channels I can see analog 'stuff' like snow and wavy lines that are not present when viewing via the STB.

Someone also posted a TWC website which stated that Digital Simulcast was not available via Cablecard.

Found it....

http://www.timewarnercable.com/rochester/products/cablecard.html

[lessd]

The Series was designed to replace the cable cos cable box not work with it, the Series 2 (and S2-DT) was designed to work with or without a cable box. There would no point for a Series 3 to work with a cable box as there is no was it could record HD programs (at a reasonable cost) from any cable box. Someday this may not be true but because of copy protection of HDMI HD transmission, or the cost of component input to a recording device (the electronics to turn component input into a HD recording keeping the 5.1 sound is for now way too expensive for consumers) it can't be done today. The TiVo Series 3 was probably held up so when it was released there would be Cable Cards availability in most cable systems.

[bkdtv]

I wish that were true... I have a CC in the TV and when tuning some of the 1-100 channels I can see analog 'stuff' like snow and wavy lines that are not present when viewing via the STB.

Someone also posted a TWC website which stated that Digital Simulcast was not available via Cablecard.
That's sad...looks like TWC is intentionally sabotaging CableCard on their systems.

[apsarkis]

Someone also posted a TWC website which stated that Digital Simulcast was not available via Cablecard.

Seems like TWC is sending out mixed messages. For our (upstate NY) area, they list: Basic, Digital, Premium and HD channels as being supported by CC, while only the obvious PPV and 2-way featured listed as not supported.
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nynj/products/cable/cablecard.html

I went in and spoke to one of their tech's at our local office Friday morning, and he said they'd just received an e-mail with their instructions on how to configure their CC's with the S3, but he wasn't expecting consumer response quite that quickly ;) He also mentioned they were not deploying dual-stream cards, but may offer 2 CC's for a single CC charge in the S3. I'll believe that when I see it on my bil.

Perry

[bdraw]

Some of you are completely ignoring the fact that the chip set to record component HD is $800 by it self. An MPEG2 encoder for SD is cheap, the same is not true for HD.

Even if it were economically feasible why would you want to degrade the picture by decoding it and re-encoding it, just so you could use your crappy cable STB?

I do agree that there is a need for TiVo for Dish and DirecTV customers, but only they can make that happen. Don't blame TiVo for something that is beyond their control.

[moyekj]

Some of you are completely ignoring the fact that the chip set to record component HD is $800 by it self. An MPEG2 encoder for SD is cheap, the same is not true for HD. Huh? The S3 will not be MPEG2 encoding HD. Digital SD & HD are already MPEG2 transport streams and need no encoding. The only mpeg2 encoding will be for the analog channels.

[bdraw]

That is my point, no HD MPEG2 encoder is needed since it uses CableCARD, if it recorded via component or HDMI it would need an HD MPEG2 encoder which would make it cost too much.

[Uncle Briggs]

No. there's no reason for it to.

[moyekj]

That is my point, no HD MPEG2 encoder is needed since it uses CableCARD, if it recorded via component or HDMI it would need an HD MPEG2 encoder which would make it cost too much. Ahh, gotcha. I misunderstood your post - sorry about that.