CC Box <> S3?

[ZombiE]

Let me first start of with I love my Tivo.
I have a Sony HD-LCD TV that I use with my series 2 Tivo and I find the video through the box in SD to be outstanding on this TV. I have been waiting, not very patiently at times, for the S3 to come out. As I read more and more posts dealing with people over the last two-three months about not waiting anymore and getting their cable companies DVR.

Tivo and or several people on this board have emphasized that the S3 is for the 'Higher End' market. With looking at the specs that have been released it looks like the cable DVR's with some extra's. The most obvious will be the Tivo software running on the S3.

If the cable companies can offer it's customers a HD-DVR for five to ten bucks a month why is the S3 that does the same things as the cable DVR for the 'Higher End' market? So basically Tivo still doesn't have a box that will compete against the CC HD-DVR's.

I do have the Digital package from my CC (Cox). I do have the STB so I can get the HD channels also. I do realize that the S3 will be able to do more than the CC boxes I just don't understand what Tivo is thinking? I know the software on the CC boxes are very, very sad, I've never used one. But I guess it boils down to throwing hundreds of dollars down for the S3 and then seven bucks a month might be worth it to some. What is the actual value between the S3 and a CC DVR box?

As I stated above I already have the digital package so I can get the HD channels, so adding $5.99 a month for the Dual Tuner HD recording capability just has me on the fence.

Help me understand why I need to pay $799 or what ever it will eventually end up costing over the CC Box? Other than the Tivo software interface. I’m sorry but that software isn’t worth $799 plus 7 bucks a month.
Please keep in mind that I like the Tivo interface very much and my S2.

Alex

I know some of this has been covered in multiple other threads, just tying to get some direct answers to the above questions.

[dylanursula]

Zombie

An interesting point of view. 2 weeks ago to buy the S3 (I have CC HDVR & S2DT) but now I keep trying to justify the cost of that box and really can't. I still want one - but I would only use it as a DVR and not for the TTG etc..... I would rather they release two S3 one with HDTV and one without which is cheaper lol

[bubba1972]

At $799 its going to be hard to drop my Moxi box for an S3. It comes in a close second to the Tivo in terms of user interface.

[naclone]

I'm under the impression that the S3 will have considerably more storage capacity than any cable company DVR currently offered. But I may have made that up. I'm sure somebody here can shed more light. But that would be one plus in TiVo's favor. Also, whether it's available out of the box or not, the potential to network the S3 with your other TiVos (probably only other S3s) and your computer make it more attractive than the far more limited cable co DVR. But I'll be spending my $799+ almost exclusively because the TiVo software is really just that much better. I'd prefer not to have to spend that much, but I'll happily do it. The service is that good.

I'm currently using both series 2 and cable DVR on the same TV. the latter for HD content and series 2 for everything else. And I can't wait for my living room to be all TiVo again.

[aztivo]

The cable company subsidizes the boxes that you get and depending on what box you have i.e. the sa8300 (piece of crap) you get something that is proven to be reliable and the ease of use. (this is subjective of course) Also if you are paying $5 for a HD DVR I would be surprised as cox out here charges $15

[Dan203]

You're actually asking two questions there.... 1) Why can't TiVo compete with the flat $10/month fee your cable company charges and 2) Why should you pay $799 for a S3.

The answer to #1 is that for TiVo their ONLY source of income is the DVR service. For your cable company the DVR service is secondary. They make money off you just for having the digital package required to use the DVR, which means they're able to subsidize the cost of the DVR significantly to keep you a happy cable customer. TiVo can't do that. If they subsidize the hardware too much, then they don't make money for years, and there is no guarantee you'll even stick around that long.

#2 is a personal choice. If you don't think the TiVo interface, plus the features that come with it (i.e. TTG, MRV, HMO, etc...) are worth $799 then don't buy it. For some of us it is worth it, and we're the ones who will buy one regardless of the cost.

Dan

[DTSDude]

The $10 a cable company charges to rent a DVR in no way covers the cost of the box. They make their money elsewhere. TiVo has to rely solely on the cost of the hardware.

[timo123]

I have been wondering the same thing. I have been using my CC's box for over a year, and while it is no Tivo, I see absolutely no compelling reason to throw down $800 when my RTOI would be almost 9 years. Yes, the CC box's interface is nothing compared to Tivo's (which seems the be the major complaint most people have in regards to their CC DVR boxes) but at $800 for a s3, I can live with it. Especially when a majority of my shows are already recorded on my other two Tivos.

[Dan203]

The biggest reason I'm getting a S3, other then the cable DVRs poor interface, is the fact that it can be upgraded. My cable DVR only holds 12 hours of HDTV. That's far from adequate for my viewing habits. I'm the kind of guy who likes to build up 6 weeks worth of a single program like 24 or Lost, then watch them all right in a row. With just 12 hours of space I really can't do that with my cable DVR. The S3 comes out of the box with 30 hours of recording space, plus has a eSATA expansion port that I can use to double or triple that fairly inexpensively. Add in features like TTG and MRV, which both allow me to mange my space more efficiently, and it's a no brainer.

Dan

[timo123]

#2 is a personal choice. If you don't think the TiVo interface, plus the features that come with it (i.e. TTG, MRV, HMO, etc...) are worth $799 then don't buy it. For some of us it is worth it, and we're the ones who will buy one regardless of the cost.
Dan

That is an interesting point. Obvioulsy everyone has their breaking point in terms or cost. I wonder if Tivo were to charged $1200 for this box, would we still see the same excitement?

[Dan203]

I'd pay $1200 for one. It would hurt a little more, but I'd still pay it. Obviously the user base would shrink with every increase, but there are people willing to pay top dollar for nice HT gear. I mean people over on AVS have no problem dropping $1K on a Blu-Ray player even though there were only a half dozen movies available for it at launch and they knew that a better player would be coming out in less then 6 months.

Dan

[ZombiE]

Thanks for all the replies!

I want so bad to drop the 800 when it comes out. I'm not hurting in the money dept, but spend what I have wisely.
I know I will be one of the 'Late' adopters. It will kill me when all of you guys start telling us how good the S3 is when it comes out, or God forbid bad.
From previous posts it might sound like you'll be waiting for the TTG and other features plus the Sata drive port to be turned-on. Hopefully that's not the case. I would hate for you guys to drop 800 bucks and not have the full functionality of the unit for several months. I am basing that statement on what was leaked buy that beta tester. But the DT’s weren’t up to speed when they were released either.

On one of the previous posts a guy asked how much would you pay for an S3? The option wasn’t there, but I would seriously consider 300-400 with a rebate. Wishful thinking, I’m sure.

In terms that I do not understand, I'm no lawyer, is there such things as anti-competitive laws? What I'm trying to say is can the CC use their subsidizing to kill off smaller companies? Or is that what free enterprise is all about?

Alex

[bkdtv]

The biggest reason I'm getting a S3, other then the cable DVRs poor interface, is the fact that it can be upgraded. My cable DVR only holds 12 hours of HDTV. That's far from adequate for my viewing habits. I'm the kind of guy who likes to build up 6 weeks worth of a single program like 24 or Lost, then watch them all right in a row. With just 12 hours of space I really can't do that with my cable DVR. The S3 comes out of the box with 30 hours of recording space, plus has a eSATA expansion port that I can use to double or triple that fairly inexpensively. Add in features like TTG and MRV, which both allow me to mange my space more efficiently, and it's a no brainer.
I second that. My FiOS DVR ships with 160Gb, which is more than the 120Gb on most Comcast DVRs, but still inadequate for my needs. Like Dan, I like to record more content than I can watch in a week. I record programming to watch months later-- like during the rerun season when nothing new is on.

With a MSRP of $799, and a dealer cost of about $500, I figure the Series3 will run about $650 through mail order. I think chances are good for a $150 mail-in rebate. So I'm figuring it will cost about $500 after rebate for a Series3 with 250Gb.

I will add a Western Digital RE2 500Gb (http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200607/500_6.html) SATA drive for about $220 ($190 + $30 case). That will give my Series3 a capacity of 750 gigabytes -- for 85-140 hours (depending on content) of HDTV storage at 100% original quality.

[Dan203]

If the eSATA port is active at launch I plan to immediately upgrade it as well. Although I'll probably go with whatever drive is cheapest, as I'm not terribly concerned about power use or noise levels.

Dan

[Jazhuis]

In terms that I do not understand, I'm no lawyer, is there such things as anti-competitive laws? What I'm trying to say is can the CC use their subsidizing to kill off smaller companies? Or is that what free enterprise is all about?

Without going into full rant mode, cable companies and "free enterprise" go together about as much as "telephone companies" and free enterprise; that is, to say, not much at all. The main reason being that in almost every city, a single cable company is given the (only) license to operate the cable in that city, because there is only one cable network running to the households. (Same with phone lines) The way it's supposed to work, the cable company gets a local monopoly with the understanding that they are supposed to provide quality service and keep the network running.

(If only real life worked like that...)

Aside from the HD functionality on the new S3, I really want to buy one solely because doing so will only annoy Comcast, because they'll actually have to obey FCC mandate if I demand a CableCard. And they don't get their own STB in my house (so they don't get to keep track of what I watch themselves).

...but that's just me. :p

[classicsat]

You pay the $799 or whatever it will be, becasue you will own the box outright, and can take it with you to another home, provider, or use with Antenna.

If you had to go out and pay for the cable DVR, you'd have that price also, and not be able to use it outside of that cable system.

They can't lease you the box and service (for that cost of hardware), as the lease would be impossibly long, or there is no mechanism to return rental/out of lease boxes, if TiVo were in that business.

[gastrof]

..... I would rather they release two S3 one with HDTV and one without which is cheaper lol

American law now requires that new TV devices meant to receive over-the-air broadcasts be able to receive HD/digital broadcasts.

This is why the Dual Tuner Series 2 machines aren't meant for over-the-air television. They really only work with cable or satellite.

You say you'd prefer a version of the S3 that isn't an HD device? For what? reception or displaying?

If you mean both, then if you're thinking cable only, TiVo HAS produced a S3 not meant for high def.

It's called the Dual Tuner Series 2, which gets cable, and I believe will even work with a DIGITAL cable box.

[headless chicken]

Is it probable that a later version of S3 (ie. v.2 or whatever) to be released sometime down the road will have a larger hard drive, at an even lower price once TiVo starts offering it's rebates?

[ZombiE]

Chicken,

From what is known now, the S3 with have an eSATA port so you can add a big harddrive if you wanted more space. I'm sure in 6-12 months from now the S3 will be a lot cheaper than what it will first come out at. No official price yet.
IMHO, like with most electronics, they get the 'early adopters' to make back most of their R&D $$$ and then sell it cheaper after the 'I gotta have one first" hype dies down.

[bkdtv]

Is it probable that a later version of S3 (ie. v.2 or whatever) to be released sometime down the road will have a larger hard drive, at an even lower price once TiVo starts offering it's rebates?
That's not only possible, it's likely. I wouldn't expect the hardware design or features to change in the next 12-18 months, but I would expect them to up the capacity as the cost of hard drives fall.

[lessd]

The biggest reason I'm getting a S3, other then the cable DVRs poor interface, is the fact that it can be upgraded. My cable DVR only holds 12 hours of HDTV. That's far from adequate for my viewing habits. I'm the kind of guy who likes to build up 6 weeks worth of a single program like 24 or Lost, then watch them all right in a row. With just 12 hours of space I really can't do that with my cable DVR. The S3 comes out of the box with 30 hours of recording space, plus has a eSATA expansion port that I can use to double or triple that fairly inexpensively. Add in features like TTG and MRV, which both allow me to mange my space more efficiently, and it's a no brainer.

Dan

The Moto 3412 has a external hard drive port on the back and a tech from Comcast said that by the end of the year it will be active. Some SA cable boxes have that now. On E-Bay you can buy some configured hard drive interfaces for the SA cable box..just add your own Hard Drive. (The SA cable box formats the drive so no computer or external software {Mfstool} needed)