Cable card and smaller cable co. ?

[aridon]

I live in a community that has a fairly good cable provider yet it is very small. In total they service 4 private communities here for maybe 15k people.

I contacted them yesterday because I was contemplating waiting for the S3 before I picked up one of the DT Tivo's. They said they had no plans to support cable cards unless the FCC makes them do it.

Essentially making the S3 usless (except for the HD programming which they are launching Q4 this year with an unknown # of channels) I picked up a DT and a drive from weaknees or whatever the site is called.



Now I'm curious does anyone here actually know what the rules are concerning cable cards? Is there a size limit where cable Co. can effectively say we are not providing those?


Thanks for the info

[jsmeeker]

There is a clause in the ruling that exempts small cable operators from the FCC ruling. So, they may be telling you the truth. Not sure what that number is, though. Someone will dig up the FCC rule and quote the actual clause.

[MichaelK]

trying to find all the relevent laws and regulations for a given subject is tough but I believe the relevent regulation is 47CFR76.1204 which says:


Availability of equipment performing conditional access
or security functions.

(a)(1) A multichannel video programming distributor that utilizes
navigation devices to perform conditional access functions shall make
available equipment that incorporates only the conditional access
functions of such devices. Commencing on July 1, 2007, no multichannel
video programming distributor subject to this section shall place in
service new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both
conditional access and other functions in a single integrated device.


but later says:


(f) Paragraphs (a)(1), (b), and (c) of this section shall not apply
to the provision of any navigation device that:
(1) Employs conditional access mechanisms only to access analog
video programming;
(2) Is capable only of providing access to analog video programming
offered over a multichannel video programming distribution system; and
(3) Does not provide access to any digital transmission of
multichannel video programming or any other digital service through any
receiving, decoding, conditional access, or other function, including
any conversion of digital programming or service to an analog format.


So I think come July 1, 2007 it applies to everyone that does DIGITAL cable. Analog looks to be exempt.

So if they are analog today they might be exempt, but if this is the only relevent regulation then once they at HD (which by it's nature is Digital - either by sending ATSC of QAM) then they have to use cablecards come July 1, 2007.

They might be so small they dont know that, but I would assume when they call Motorolla or SA for thier new head end that the vendors tell them what they need.

I think the FCC has links to contact them on their website- might be worth sending an email to ask and then forwarding the answer to your cable company if it confirms the above...

[MichaelK]

There is another regulation or consent decree or somethign floating around though- becasue the reg above only talks about the impneding ban on all in one boxes. There is somethign else somplace that said the Big 5 companies had to provide cablecasrd to all that ask at some point (might have been June of 2005?). So Although the big 5 can still hand out boxes without cablecard when they lease they must provide a cablecard to anyone that asks. I beleive that part only applied to the big 5 so untill July 1 2007 the dinks dont even need to hand out cablecards if you ask.

[Dan203]

You should fill out this form....

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr_cc.asp

TiVo may call your cable company and loby them to support CableCARD on your behalf.

Dan

[MichaelK]

here's the rulign that created the regulations above-


Sorry - in a rush at work- and tough to serach as it's a pdf- but there are some more requirments in theruling not specifically in the regulation (like the big 6/ now 5 MSO's have to file periodic reports)- there might be more in here about having to suplly cablecards to any one that asks before 2007.

But I still think come july 1, 2007 that everyone with digital cable has to supply cablecards- even on their own boxes...

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:k0w-YWUlNYMJ:www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/1998/fcc98116.pdf+cs+docket+97-80&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

[MichaelK]

sorry that's the google cache- here the fcc link to it:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/1998/fcc98116.pdf

[segaily]

I am getting ready to move and just looked at the website of the small cable company that I will be getting service from. They offer cable cards at least but charge a one time fee of $150 for the card and the install. If I end up needing 2 card that will be the s3 out of my price range

http://www.metrocastcablevision.com/digital_ratecard.cfm

[Dan203]

You might want to ask them if they can get you a multi-stream card instead of two regular cards. The S3 can use a single multi-stream card for dual tuner support if you can get one.

Dan

[jsmeeker]

You might want to ask them if they can get you a multi-stream card instead of two regular cards. The S3 can use a single multi-stream card for dual tuner support if you can get one.

Dan


What's the advantage of using a single multi-stream card over two single stream cards? Is it simply a matter of paying for one card as opposed to two?

[dt_dc]

Re: CableCard support and whether it applies to all cable companies or if smaller cable companies are exempt ...

Well ...

The main issue is companies 'subject to effective competition'. Now, the FCC tends not to explicitly exempt companies from regulations based on whether they are 'subject to effective competition' or not ... untill the regulation is challanged in court and the FCC is explicitly told by the court to do so.

An example is price regulation and franchise laws. Originally, FCC regulations let local franchise authorities regulate all cable company rates. However, this was challanged in court and the court found that companies 'subject to effective competition' could not be rate regulated. The FCC changed the regulations ... local franchise authorities can not regulate the rates of companies 'subject to effective competition'.

Companies 'subject to effective competition' are not explicitly exempted from the CableCard regulations. HOWEVER, just about any equipment / pricing / whatever regulation would be struck down by the court if applied to companies 'subject to effective competition'. Indeed ... if you look at the original Congressional law that spawned the CableCard regulations ... you'll see that a 'competitive' marketplace is a factor / component on what the FCC is allowed to do ...

Bottom line ... the FCC is not likely to force any cable companies 'subject to effective competition' into complying with CableCard regulations. Small cable companies often fall into that category. Overbuilders always do. And ... big cable companies are also starting to (they can apply to the FCC for effective competition status in markets where DBS or overbuilder subscription rates are higher than 15%).

[Dan203]

What's the advantage of using a single multi-stream card over two single stream cards? Is it simply a matter of paying for one card as opposed to two?

Mainly, that's it. However there is also only one point of failure. So if something should go wrong with the car you'll know that it's that one card causing the problem. With two cards you'll have to trouble shoot and try to figure out which of the two cards is causing the problem.

Dan

[aridon]

Good info, I won't hold my breath for them to start carrying cable cards.

I might still upgrade to the S3 once the prices drop just for the better inputs / outputs.



Thanks for the info everyone :)

[dswallow]

CableCard would be pretty useless if the cable system has no digital channels, anyway.

[d_anders]

CableCard would be pretty useless if the cable system has no digital channels, anyway.

This is the point folks. There are thousands of small and rural systems that are only analog. The Series 2 DT is an ideal purchase for these environments.

If you want HD and you live in a rural area, then it's DirecTV or DISH....DirectTivo HD units can still be found for DirectTV if you can live without pay-per-view, or get yourself a 2nd stnd box for those...

[gastrof]

...A seperate mandate will force the cable companies to do away with the proprietary set top box and use only cable cards (even in the boxes they lease)...

That sure doesn't sound good.

What if someone is a digital cable subscriber, and has older TV equipment that doesn't support cable cards? They'd NEED a digital cable box. :(

[dswallow]

That sure doesn't sound good.

What if someone is a digital cable subscriber, and has older TV equipment that doesn't support cable cards? They'd NEED a digital cable box. :(
New boxes provided by the cable company must utilize the same CableCard device that would be utilized by subscriber-owned equipment.

The cable box isn't going away; they're just going to be required to utilize CableCards instead of having all of that logic internal to the cable box.

[mattack]

CableCard would be pretty useless if the cable system has no digital channels, anyway.

But it would be useful for the channel mapping issue, for the "broadcast" HD channels, in QAM on the cable signal.

[bicker]

New boxes provided by the cable company must utilize the same CableCard device that would be utilized by subscriber-owned equipment.Really? So they're no longer able to provide boxes that rely on proprietary means? Is there a phase-out clause? (Presumably, they can continue to use boxes they currently have, right?)

[classicsat]

Yes, evenually they will only be able to deploy cablecard boxes, if they wish to distribute boxes, and discontinue non-CC boxes. They can still choose to support non-CC boxes already in the field though.

[dswallow]

Really? So they're no longer able to provide boxes that rely on proprietary means? Is there a phase-out clause? (Presumably, they can continue to use boxes they currently have, right?)
They'll be able to make boxes that use the CableCard AND use properietary technology, so they still will be able to screw around with customers. ;)

[aridon]

Well my local schmokel cable company does offer HD and digital programming that means they will at some point be required to at least offer cable cards?

[Lukej]

Well my local schmokel cable company does offer HD and digital programming that means they will at some point be required to at least offer cable cards?

That's my question too. My local company serves an area of 16,000 people (and of course has a much smaller number of subscribers than that). So it is a very small company. But, they do offer HD and digital cable. Should I expect them to offer cablecards by 2007?

[bicker]

I didn't see anything in the law that specifically address HD and digital cable as qualifications for the requirement. What paragraph are you referring to?

[MichaelK]

there's definately a spot that exempts analog only systems.

You need to read the law( for those that dont know the actual bill that congress passes and the president signs) and then ALL the regulations(these are also called CFR's and are issued by agencies that are giving the power by laws to create such regulations) and rulings (again issed by agencies- sometimes called Dockets- but to be honest these confuse me a bit too) that go along with it.

You cant get accurate info from just one part unfortunately. The law actually saws nothing at all about cablecard- the law itself only directs the FCC to ensure that 3rd party tuners are readily availible at retail. THe fcc decided to force cablecards on cable by promulgating regulations so that 3rd party tuners would be availible at retail. SO you have to dig into all the FCC regulations and rulings to find that bit. I beleive there are alos dockets/rulings about cablecard too that are not in the CFR/regulations. As an example I cant find anything in the regulations that says the big cable companies have to file reports, but their is a docket/ruling that says they do and that's where those come from.

But just for some common sense- if you only have analog cable then there is absolutely no need for a cablecard. Their whole purpose is to map and decode digital channels. If there are no digital channels then what would the card do?

[bmgoodman]

If there are no digital channels then what would the card do?

Well, for one thing, it would give you the opportunity to pay $800 for a device (S3) that would finally, completely replace a $100 device (S2 DT). You know, in case you're buying for the government. ;)

[dswallow]

Well, for one thing, it would give you the opportunity to pay $800 for a device (S3) that would finally, completely replace a $100 device (S2 DT). You know, in case you're buying for the government. ;)
Actually it would not completely replace a Series 2, dual tuner or otherwise, since a Series 3 cannot control a set-top box. Just because a cable system is analog only doesn't mean there aren't scrambled channels necessitating a set-top box.

(Of course this only furthers the governmental example you gave; since the device costs more and doesn't support a couple things the older device does, it's a prime candidate for being used to replace the older device. :))