Am I the only one who thinks tivo removing the lifetime plan was a little shifty?

[crazycool]

I love my tivo and I've bene on these forums before with really great sucess when I've had intall issues. I really enjoy that tivo enourages these communities where we can compare and hash out questions with each other.

That being said - I've been a Tivo subscriber for almost two years now and I set up under the monthly plan. Honestly, when I was given my Tivo as a gift I didn't know if i "needed" it and I was a bit skeptical, but I have come to love all of the services that Tivo provides.

Mostly I forgot about my monthly payment, but recently I became a student again and my budget therefore got a little tighter and I thought it would be smart to pay my lifetime fee for my tivo....

except I just discovered online that it does no longer exist?!?!?

WHY did they not tell current subscribers that this was happening??? why didn't they offer us the chance to finalize our subscription? I love my tivo now and I would have gladly paid the lifetime fee, but now I feel like they pulled the rug out from under my feet.

If I have been a loyal customer, why not give me that option?

I hate to say this, but with no lifetime option I may have to be forced to go to cable dvr due to cost

[alansplace]

:eek: probably. i'd say that your timing was just bad.
--
Alan :D

[megazone]

Well, it wasn't a big secret - every forum, blog, newsgroup, mailing list, etc that relates to TiVo was all abuzz with the news when it was announced, well before it was no longer available. It even got picked up by some of the mainstream press outlets.

The one thing they could've done was send an announcement out to all subscribers, and some people think they should've. But the point was that lifetime was hurting TiVo financially, so it wouldn't have been good for business to encourage people to go sign up.

[TiVo Troll]

I love my tivo and I've bene on these forums before with really great sucess when I've had intall issues. I really enjoy that tivo enourages these communities where we can compare and hash out questions with each other.

That being said - I've been a Tivo subscriber for almost two years now and I set up under the monthly plan. Honestly, when I was given my Tivo as a gift I didn't know if i "needed" it and I was a bit skeptical, but I have come to love all of the services that Tivo provides.

Mostly I forgot about my monthly payment, but recently I became a student again and my budget therefore got a little tighter and I thought it would be smart to pay my lifetime fee for my tivo....

except I just discovered online that it does no longer exist?!?!?

WHY did they not tell current subscribers that this was happening??? why didn't they offer us the chance to finalize our subscription? I love my tivo now and I would have gladly paid the lifetime fee, but now I feel like they pulled the rug out from under my feet.

If I have been a loyal customer, why not give me that option?

I hate to say this, but with no lifetime option I may have to be forced to go to cable dvr due to cost

Tivo gave plenty of warning, just not personally by email! No they weren't being shifty!

Lifetime was a good deal, but the price was too low for TiVo to continue it. It was up to a customer to check the available service options.

Lifetime Service is essentially still available, but at its market price. An eBay listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&item=230022013722&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) for a TiVo Lifetime Service Gift Card just closed for $695. including shipping. Why should TiVo have offered it for any less once they decided to stop losing money on Lifetime Service?

[JohnH59]

You really think they were "losing" money. I mean really, what is the "lifetime" of a TiVo unit, even trading out drives? Just my opinion... Sorry. I think it was a little shifty. I have three units currently. I have paid lifetime for two previous units and replaced them for better models. Thus, paying two more lifetime subscriptions. So, from me alone, they have 4 lifetime subscriptions and one month to month. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

[rainwater]

You really think they were "losing" money. I mean really, what is the "lifetime" of a TiVo unit, even trading out drives?

Lifetime service paid for itself in 23 months which is longer than the average TiVo lifetime. I would say that was a steal to get it at that price.

[JohnH59]

Lifetime service paid for itself in 23 months which is longer than the average TiVo lifetime. I would say that was a steal to get it at that price.

a steal for who, if the average lifetime of a TiVo unit is less than the 23 months in which it takes to pay for the service? Or, am I misunderstanding your comment?

[TiVo Troll]

You really think they were "losing" money.

Certainly! Tivo has never turned a profit. Users have shown that they're willing to pay far more than $299. for Lifetime Service.

I mean really, what is the "lifetime" of a TiVo unit, even trading out drives? Just my opinion... Sorry. I think it was a little shifty. I have three units currently. I have paid lifetime for two previous units and replaced them for better models. Thus, paying two more lifetime subscriptions. So, from me alone, they have 4 lifetime subscriptions and one month to month. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

A TiVo of any age can be repaired or maintained indefinitely, most often just by changing out the hard drive or possibly the modem on earlier models. Why do so many posters appear to believe that digital electronics can't be used almost indefinitely? Is it modern brainwashing?

"When I was a kid we used to walk 20 miles to school every day, and it was uphill in both birections!"

[Stylin]

Not to stir the pot again, but "TiVo" DID not give "plenty" of warning to their subscribers. "TiVo" did not actually give their subscribers any warning, nor make an official announcement to inform it's subscribers. A company is not supposed to rely on "forum, blog, newsgroup, mailing list, etc" to announce to their customers that they are instituting a major change to their current subscription /service offerings. They could have simply let their customers know by sending a message to their boxes. Having the technology at hand to do very easily, and choosing not to use it = shifty.
If I was a current subscriber who had missed out on the opportunity esp due to not being informed, I'd feel no loyalty to TiVo.

[rainwater]

a steal for who, if the average lifetime of a TiVo unit is less than the 23 months in which it takes to pay for the service? Or, am I misunderstanding your comment?

Sorry, my point meant to say that 23 months is much less than the people who paid for lifetime made use of their boxes. You don't think TiVo is losing money on the users that have TiVos that are 5 years or older?

[Arcady]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

I loved selling several dozen lifetime SD boxes to morons on ebay. "Yay, now you can record non-existant NTSC signals forever!" Boneheads at $700 a pop.

[ah30k]

Lifetime Service is essentially still available, but at its market price. An eBay listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&item=230022013722&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) for a TiVo Lifetime Service Gift Card just closed for $695.It is not fair to compare eBay scalping of discontinued lifetime cards the equivalent of the market value had they not discontinued it. Had TiVo coninued to make them abundantly available do you think they would be going on eBay for $700?

I don't think so. If TiVo still sold them, they could probably clear the market somewhere closer to $400. No one has a crystal ball to say what that market value would be.

[wmcbrine]

Shifty? No. ******? Yes.

[c3]

Why would TiVo want to attract more lifetime subscriptions if that's something they no longer wished to sell? A "loyal" TiVo customer is one who keeps paying TiVo the monthly fees.

[mick66]

All subscriptions and subscription rates change. Get T F over it.

[bidger]

A "loyal" TiVo customer is one who keeps paying TiVo the monthly fees.
Sez the user with, by my count, 5 Lifetime units in his sig.

Did you forget a smilie?

[c3]

Sez the user with, by my count, 5 Lifetime units in his sig.

Did you forget a smilie?

Unless I buy more units, I'm no longer a "paying" customer. I think TiVo would be happier if all of my units die. :)

[Stu_Bee]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

I loved selling several dozen lifetime SD boxes to morons on ebay. "Yay, now you can record non-existant NTSC signals forever!" Boneheads at $700 a pop.

- Nice...calling your customers morons.
- I've had my Tivo Series 2 for 4.5 years, so the last 2+ years were basically free. I wouldn't call that stupid.
- The input to my Tivo is an svideo sd output from a HD/Digital cable receiver. I don't believe that's going away.

[classicX]

All subscriptions and subscription rates change. Get T F over it.

+1

You expect Tivo to always keep the same service rates, and complain when they don't, yet when other service rates change, you're not nearly so sad.

Imagine your phone company used to sell "lifetime" subscriptions to phone service (including gift cards). Say $500 for lifetime phone service, unlimited calling to anywhere in the US.

Now let's say that they got rid of them, and wanted a flat monthly fee for the same unlimited calling.

Would you say that the phone company is alienating it's "loyal" customers?

It's a dumb premise. Especially when you see lifetime phone gift cards on Ebay for $4000.

[MScottC]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

I loved selling several dozen lifetime SD boxes to morons on ebay. "Yay, now you can record non-existant NTSC signals forever!" Boneheads at $700 a pop.


I disagree. I'm typically one who has to have all the bells and whistles when it comes to my "toys." But in the case of TiVo, Lifetime has saved me a FORTUNE. I purchased my Lifetime in October of 1999. I've had my $200 Lifetime subscription on what was a 14 Hour (now 140 hour) Series 1 for close to 7 years now. Granted, I've missed out on some of the Series 2 benefits, but I'll survive.

This means, by the time I replace my Series 1 with a Series 3 sometime this fall I'll have saved approximately $940. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Given that my wife and I watch almost all TV thru the TiVo, I decided a long time ago that I was not going to buy an HDTV till an HD TiVo came out. Now that means, unlike a lot of my peers at work and friends, I have not gone through 1 or more HDTVs, some of which were in the $3-4000 range, some of which have been already "obsoleted" by better and less expensive newer displays.

Oh, and given I was an early adaptor, I get to transfer my S1 lifetime over to my S3. So my savings will continue to rack up. Now I'll grant, I'm one of the luckier ones to have gotten in on the "grandfathering," but it just goes to show, if you are smart about it, Lifetime can be a very good deal.

[JacksTiVo]

Here are some of my observations:
TiVo management looked at the DVR market and correctly observed that both satellite and cable customers were willing to pay a monthly fee to have a DVR box in their homes.

The DVR market for cable/satellite customers was growing faster than TiVo.

TiVo accounting (per SEC filings) amortized Lifetime subscriptions over 48 months. Thus a large number of their pre-2002 TiVo lifetime subscribers (including me) are not contributing a penny for our service.

TiVo has never made any money.

Conclusion:
End new Lifetime subscriptions.
Emulate the cable/satellite companies by giving the box away for "free" and collect monthly fees.
Compete with the cable/satellite companies by offering a superior product with the TiVo software (S3) and protect TiVo's patents with legal action.

In other words, they have been developing an intermediate and longer term strategy to become a profitable company. If they don't all of our TiVo boxes will become expensive door stops.

[atmuscarella]

JacksTiVo is right TiVo has to make money sooner or later or they will go out of business.

The question is does eliminating life time service instead of keeping it or raising it's cost help or hurt TiVo financially? No one will ever really know the answer to that question, TiVo will have the best data but still can never be 100% certain.

My guess is that eliminating life time service will actually be a benefit to both TiVo and their costumers. We are in a gradual change over from analog to digital and from Standard to high definition signals. The cable card standard is also still evolving as is video over IP. These changes may require more rapid equipment updates and may make legacy equipment less desirable. Lifetime service only encourages people to keep legacy equipment running with limited benefits to the costumer and high costs to TiVo.

I recently purchase another TiVo my net costs for the box and 1 year of service will be $84. Which means it is very disposable and it will be very easy for me to dumpster the box at any time after the first year. I think this ability to easily dumpster this box benefits both TiVo and myself.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[ZeoTiVo]

My guess is that eliminating life time service will actually be a benefit to both TiVo and their costumers. We are in a gradual change over from analog to digital and from Standard to high definition signals. The cable card standard is also still evolving as is video of IP.

yep.
I am glad I have a lifetimed Series 2 240 box. worth every penny of lifetime and I am now on the plus side of it. Obviously that is loosing money for TiVo.

now I have since subscribed 4 more TiVos adn as much as I like every one of them I would not lifetime them because of the MSD taking monthly to 7$. That puts lifetime out at 4 years adn I doubt I will want these TiVos subscribed at that point and since I plan to wait till next Christmas to go HD I think the resell value of lifetime on these boxes will go down as well, plus I am not big on the hassle of doing ebay and selling things.

So I have two TiVos that will revert back to TiVo Basic :) once I get a series 3 in the house. The DT I have now I may end up just hacking around with after its time is done in about 2 years.

I was thinking of messing with the 540 I have but I can give than now to my Sister in law adn spread the TiVolution a bit.

The lifetime 240 I am going to hack soon to put TiVoWebPlus on

[lessd]

JacksTiVo is right TiVo has to make money sooner or later or they will go out of business.

The question is does eliminating life time service instead of keeping it or raising it's cost help or hurt TiVo financially? No one will ever really know the answer to that question, TiVo will have the best data but still can never be 100% certain.

My guess is that eliminating life time service will actually be a benefit to both TiVo and their costumers. We are in a gradual change over from analog to digital and from Standard to high definition signals. The cable card standard is also still evolving as is video over IP. These changes may require more rapid equipment updates and may make legacy equipment less desirable. Lifetime service only encourages people to keep legacy equipment running with limited benefits to the costumer and high costs to TiVo.

I recently purchase another TiVo my net costs for the box and 1 year of service will be $84. Which means it is very disposable and it will be very easy for me to dumpster the box at any time after the first year. I think this ability to easily dumpster this box benefits both TiVo and myself.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

The customer with lifetime over time of the Series 2 had a negative cost of ownership as I sold a series 2 for $465 and paid (after rebate) $70 + $299 I then got a Series 2 DT with lifetime (their was a loophole to get lifetime on the DT units for about a month after they came out) that cost me $100 + $299, what a deal. (and not for TiVo) So I understand why they did it.

Les

[terryfoster]

I disagree. I'm typically one who has to have all the bells and whistles when it comes to my "toys." But in the case of TiVo, Lifetime has saved me a FORTUNE. I purchased my Lifetime in November of 2000. I've had my $200 Lifetime subscription on what was a 14 Hour (now 140 hour) Series 1 for close to 6 years now. Granted, I've missed out on some of the Series 2 benefits, but I'll survive.

...

Oh, and given I was an early adaptor, I get to transfer my S1 lifetime over to my S3. So my savings will continue to rack up. Now I'll grant, I'm one of the luckier ones to have gotten in on the "grandfathering," but it just goes to show, if you are smart about it, Lifetime can be a very good deal.

Didn't you get the $100 rebate you didn't ask for like I did making your lifetime cost only $100?

I have also debated moving my lifetime to the S3. The thing that holds me back is not knowing how long I will be able to fully use the S3 and how soon a "S4" would be available to solve the pending SDV problem (not currently a problem in my TWC area). I plan on holding onto my S1 for awhile longer. Even with my dual tuner DVR I need a third upon occasion. Since I will be paying $6.95 either way, at this point I'll keep the Lifetime on the S1 until it is no longer functioning.

Wait, WAIT a minute! Your lifetime purchase in November of 2000 says you're stuck with LT on your S1. Sorry about your luck.
Grandfather transfer: The one-time "Grandfather transfer" (for people who purchased Product Lifetime on or before January 21, 2000 [as in, more than six years ago], and who have not already used their one-time transfer) is still allowed and will also be honored for future hardware releases from TiVo, such as the Series3. If you have any trouble when you call, please mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent.

-Currently has saved ~$950

[MScottC]

Didn't you get the $100 rebate you didn't ask for like I did making your lifetime cost only $100?


Wait, WAIT a minute! Your lifetime purchase in November of 2000 says you're stuck with LT on your S1. Sorry about your luck.


-Currently has saved ~$950


I may have gotten the rebate, Tho I don't remember for sure.


See edited post above... I registered in October of 1999 (minor oops).

[bidger]

JacksTiVo, there is one more item I would add to your astute observations:

ReplayTV no longer a viable competitor offering Lifetime Service, so no longer a motivation for TiVo to follow suit.

[MickeS]

It doesn't even need NTSC signals - it just needs an ATSC remote-controlled tuner with composite/s-video + audio outputs. I would assume that most external ATSC tuners (for example cable boxes) have that?

[atmuscarella]

No one knows the future but we are going through a major change in TV one that is as radical as when we went from black & white to color. The change from analog to digital and from SD to HD is happening, it will take some time and most electronic equipment will continue to function through the transition but someday analog and SD equipment will be the same as black and white TVs - they will work but no one really wants one.

So I believe current series 1 & 2 TiVos will not become useless or valueless however their usefulness and value is likely to decline over time. Currently you can buy a new Series 2 for $30 or a DT Series 2 for $65. What TiVo has done by reducing it's prices to this level and eliminating lifetime is freeing itself and it's customers from needing to maintain these DVRs past 1 year.

I actually paid nothing for both of my TiVos after rebates. The one with life time I will try to maintain as long as I have a use for it and then try to sell it someone else. The one without lifetime only needs to go 1 year then I don't care what happens to it.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[Stormspace]

TiVo should have sent a notification using the message system built into the service, and I said as much when the announcement was made. Essentially the terms of service changed and they didn't notify all of their subscribers.

It's sad it happened that way and even the hard core TiVo people in my area didn't know about it until I told them after the fact thinking that they already knew. Many of them were not happy as they planned to get an S3 with lifetime. :(

[terryfoster]

TiVo should have sent a notification using the message system built into the service, and I said as much when the announcement was made. Essentially the terms of service changed and they didn't notify all of their subscribers.

That's not entirely true. Terms of service didn't change for any existing subscriber. Terms did change for any new customer or customer wanting to change.

Think of it this way. Do you expect your cell phone provider to alert you every time their plans and pricing change even though it probably doesn't affect you since you're under contract?

[Stormspace]

That's not entirely true. Terms of service didn't change for any existing subscriber. Terms did change for any new customer or customer wanting to change.

Think of it this way. Do you expect your cell phone provider to alert you every time their plans and pricing change even though it probably doesn't affect you since you're under contract?

I get a notification everytime the options change from my cable provider, phone company, and internet provider. Don't you?

Another thing, I get paper bills from these companies and it actually costs them money to send out these notices, much more money than a message on the TiVo. TiVo made a mistake by not letting everyone know about it directly, instead they used indirect means like the press, blogs, and forums in an attempt to skate by those subscribers that would likely bite when confronted by the option of getting it as a last chance.

It's entirely too easy for them to send a notice to subscribers for this to be excusable behavior. I'm just glad I stay informed, if not I'd be feeling left out right about now.

[MickeS]

I get a notification everytime the options change from my cable provider, phone company, and internet provider. Don't you?


In all my years of having services, I have not once gotten any notice, except if it's a price increase on my existing service, which did not happen in this case.

Unless it's a new plan they want to promote, I am never informed by my cellphone carrier of newer plans that would lower the price I have to pay, even though they do make changes like that from time to time (which is why I check it myself a few times a year).

The phone company doesn't do much except add new services that they give me the option to pay extra for.

The cable company has notified me when they have raised the rates for my service, and also if they have added channels. They are also my ISP, and they have notified me when they have increased the bandwidth.

What services do you have that have notified you in a situation similar to TiVo removing the lifetime subscription as an option?

[terryfoster]

It's entirely too easy for them to send a notice to subscribers for this to be excusable behavior.

I'll agree that it is very easy for them to send out notifications. The problem is they have no obligation to tell you about this since, again, the terms of service for existing customers didn't change. I can see this as being a problem if they didn't give fair warning before raising the subscription rates for existing customers, but that isn't the case here.

Sure I get notified when there are new services that I can subscribe to and pay extra for from my providers, but those are generally called advertisements. I wouldn't call the death of Lifetime service an advertisement.

[thebarge]

- Nice...calling your customers morons.
- I've had my Tivo Series 2 for 4.5 years, so the last 2+ years were basically free. I wouldn't call that stupid.
- The input to my Tivo is an svideo sd output from a HD/Digital cable receiver. I don't believe that's going away.
I still have a Series ONE that's running like a champion in my bedroom. Wish I had of bought a lifetime subscription for that one. I think when I bought it, lifetime was only like $99.

[c3]

It's entirely too easy for them to send a notice to subscribers for this to be excusable behavior.

Dear TiVo customer,

New lifetime service will no longer be sold in 30 days. Please ignore this message because we do not want to sell it to you anyway.

TiVo

[Stormspace]

In all my years of having services, I have not once gotten any notice, except if it's a price increase on my existing service, which did not happen in this case.

Unless it's a new plan they want to promote, I am never informed by my cellphone carrier of newer plans that would lower the price I have to pay, even though they do make changes like that from time to time (which is why I check it myself a few times a year).

The phone company doesn't do much except add new services that they give me the option to pay extra for.

The cable company has notified me when they have raised the rates for my service, and also if they have added channels. They are also my ISP, and they have notified me when they have increased the bandwidth.

What services do you have that have notified you in a situation similar to TiVo removing the lifetime subscription as an option?

It's difficult to come up with an exact situation as most changes in service are as you said, oportunities to offer something else. The closest would have to be my bank. In the past 5 years there was one time when the different account types changed. Each type had it's own perks and I was automatically downgraded to a lower service level while the previous level was removed/changed so drastically that it wasn't the same. In this case I ended up moving to a basic account to just escape the BS. I was however informed of the services I'd be losing and like lifetime TiVo service I was NOT using them so it was no big deal.

So my point is that by not telling everyone up front TiVo risks alienating those people that probably would have just shrugged it off when the announcement was made simply because a common and very visible meaning of comunicating with them was not used. TiVo sis send out a revised TOS last year/This year(Can't remember) why not the lifetime stuff?

I'm just sayin' :)

[MickeS]

Speaking of this - Sirius satellite radio has a Lifetime option, that apparently is going away January 31, 2007. http://www.sirius.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Sirius/CachedPage&c=Page&cid=1150907696769

Are they removing it for the same reasons TiVo did? I wonder if they have notified their existing month-to-month customers?

[matthewwhite]

you can still get a humax dvd with lifetime on never activated units.

[Dajad]

I disagree. I'm typically one who has to have all the bells and whistles when it comes to my "toys." But in the case of TiVo, Lifetime has saved me a FORTUNE. I purchased my Lifetime in October of 1999. I've had my $200 Lifetime subscription on what was a 14 Hour (now 140 hour) Series 1 for close to 7 years now. Granted, I've missed out on some of the Series 2 benefits, but I'll survive.

This means, by the time I replace my Series 1 with a Series 3 sometime this fall I'll have saved approximately $940. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Given that my wife and I watch almost all TV thru the TiVo, I decided a long time ago that I was not going to buy an HDTV till an HD TiVo came out. Now that means, unlike a lot of my peers at work and friends, I have not gone through 1 or more HDTVs, some of which were in the $3-4000 range, some of which have been already "obsoleted" by better and less expensive newer displays.

Oh, and given I was an early adaptor, I get to transfer my S1 lifetime over to my S3. So my savings will continue to rack up. Now I'll grant, I'm one of the luckier ones to have gotten in on the "grandfathering," but it just goes to show, if you are smart about it, Lifetime can be a very good deal.

Exact same situation here. Lifetime has saved me buckets AND I'm about to transfer it to my forthcoming S3 purchase.

That said, I also PAID $1,300 for my original 30 hour box, so while I saved on lifetime, I pretty much compensated TiVo by being an early adapter.

And, as always (and as I've said dozens of times here over the last 7 years is), my primary beef, of monthlies or even 1, 2 and 3 year plans is that I have no idea what my cost exposure is, and I HATE recurring bills. I'd rather pay MORE upfront and know what a product is going to cost me, than to leave it to the viscisitudes of my service providers latest business model needs. I HATE uncertainty as to cost.

Even today, even with years of TiVo use and my absolute love of the product, I wouldn't become a new purchaser/subscriber without a lifetime option. Hence, this transfer to S3 will likely be my last TiVo purchase EVER unless TiVo brings the lifetime back in the future (or more likely, drops subscription fees altogether and starts charging transaction based charges for premium and downloadable content).

...Dale

[c3]

I HATE uncertainty as to cost.

With hardware, there is already the uncertainty of how long it will last. As for the service cost, would you pay $700 for lifetime today?

[TiVo Troll]

Speaking of this - Sirius satellite radio has a Lifetime option, that apparently is going away January 31, 2007. http://www.sirius.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Sirius/CachedPage&c=Page&cid=1150907696769

Are they removing it for the same reasons TiVo did? I wonder if they have notified their existing month-to-month customers?

Don't bet on it until February 1, 2007. Sirius has extended their lifetime option more than once already.

[TiVo Troll]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

I loved selling several dozen lifetime SD boxes to morons on ebay. "Yay, now you can record non-existant NTSC signals forever!" Boneheads at $700 a pop.

Lifetime ain't stupid. Any TiVo can be maintained or repaired indefintely. All an analog TiVo w/D/A converter needs is the ability to control a STB.

Dual cable tuner Series 2's w/o OTA tuner support might be considered stupid, but TiVo doesn't think so.

Would TiVo be stupid if it offered the capability to control ATSC STB tuners from Series 2's?

[greg_burns]

Dual cable tuner Series 2's w/o OTA tuner support might be considered stupid, but TiVo doesn't think so.

The DT S2 doesn't have OTA tuner support. ;)

[TiVo Troll]

It is not fair to compare eBay scalping of discontinued lifetime cards the equivalent of the market value had they not discontinued it. Had TiVo coninued to make them abundantly available do you think they would be going on eBay for $700?

I don't think so. If TiVo still sold them, they could probably clear the market somewhere closer to $400. No one has a crystal ball to say what that market value would be.

A reasonable objective might be for TiVo to make Lifetime Service available but at a price higher than most potential customers would select, thereby enhancing the perceived value of TiVo Service. Volume sales is not the goal.

My gut says $400 is too low and $700 is too high! I'd gladly pay $500 so obviously the price oughta' be $600!

[mattack]

Lifetime ain't stupid. Any TiVo can be maintained or repaired indefintely. All an analog TiVo w/D/A converter needs is the ability to control a STB.

Dual cable tuner Series 2's w/o OTA tuner support might be considered stupid, but TiVo doesn't think so.

Well, we don't know what Tivo really thinks. The logical reason for the lack of OTA support on new Tivos is the legal requirement for ATSC tuners in new devices as of some time next year.

It would need to control an STB, but if you mean an external ATSC tuner, the Tivo would also have to be able to deal with subchannels for the OTA HD stations. Presumably that will never happen for S1s, and I suspect (also with no proof whatsoever) that it's unlikely to happen for S2s. Would it be a reasonable compromise to only be able to tune to a 'main' HD channel to support external HD tuners? I don't know, but that'd presumably be easier to implement/retrofit on existing Tivos.

[TiVo Troll]

Dual cable tuner Series 2's w/o OTA tuner support might be considered stupid, but TiVo doesn't think so.

The DT S2 doesn't have OTA tuner support. ;)

Uh huh. That's essentially what I intended my cutesy wording to mean.

[greg_burns]

Uh huh. That's essentially what I intended my cutesy wording to mean.

:o I think it's time to call it a night.

[TiVo Troll]

Well, we don't know what Tivo really thinks. The logical reason for the lack of OTA support on new Tivos is the legal requirement for ATSC tuners in new devices as of some time next year.

Yes. But regulations regarding tuners have nothing to do w/STB support.

It would need to control an STB, but if you mean an external ATSC tuner, the Tivo would also have to be able to deal with subchannels for the OTA HD stations. Presumably that will never happen for S1s, and I suspect (also with no proof whatsoever) that it's unlikely to happen for S2s. Would it be a reasonable compromise to only be able to tune to a 'main' HD channel to support external HD tuners? I don't know, but that'd presumably be easier to implement/retrofit on existing Tivos.

Either it's a big deal or it's a piece of cake! What's the difference between a channel number of 2071 or 85-3?

Channel mapping either needs to work completely automatically or a user needs to be able to manually enter a channel number which includes subchannels.

I don't give a hoot about many of TiVo's features but respect their vision. TiVo's biggest draw for me (until their recent software upgrade with the much ballyhooed KidZone) has been stability and reliability. It's their choice to offer stuff and my choice to buy TiVo.

[Stylin]

Stormspace, I agree totally with your post. I, to, had raised the question.

What services do you have that have notified you in a situation similar to TiVo removing the lifetime subscription as an option?
Verizon phone service - When they discarded their "Freedom Extra" plan (which I'm on), they included the announcement in their billing newsletter at least a month prior to ceasing to offer it. To get the same service/feature plan now, would cost the customer $44/mth more.
Nextel cell phone service - Made minute and plan price change to "Free Incoming" call plan. Current new subscribers pay $5 more and receive 100 less minutes. Once again, a blurb was included in the billing newsletter.
Cablevision tv - approx 3 yrs ago, can't remember the plan details, as it did not affect me, but they ceased offering a plan, and informed their customers via billing.
Prodigy/SBC Yahoo - back when I was still on dialup, when they were merging they stopped offering/increased a mthly fee for strictly email accts, and informed customers via email newsletter.
Yes, all these changes were overshadowed by "bigger and better" plans, but customers like myself, stilr had time to keep or sign up for the old plans.

The question should be what services do you have where they removed a previosly offered service/plan option and did not inform you in some official manner? The only companies I've heard to do this are some cell phone providers.

I'm not debating whether or not TiVo should have ceased to offer LT, the decision has been made and we have to live with it. My gripe is that they had the ability to inform their customers and deliberately chose not to. It doesn't affect me, as I only became a TiVo customer when I learned that LT was ending. But regardless, I still think TiVo was wrong (aka SHIFTY) by not informing their current subscribers. What a kick in the pants that I had an opportunity to purchase LT at the last minute, while someone who has been a loyal subscriber did not even know it was ending...The TiVo subscriber who refferred me to TiVo, and introduced me to the concept of dvr's, didn't even know LT was ending until I informed him. Luckily, he got in at the last minute (thks to me!), but was pretty ticked at TiVo that I got in/knew before him. Can't say I blame him.

[ZeoTiVo]

we are going to end something that is costing us a serious amount of money to our bottom line - but first lets make sure we can quadruple the drain on our bottom line by telling all the customers we are ending it :rolleyes:

[HiDefGator]

In the most recent quarterly report Tivo reported that approximately 129,000 subscribers had lifetime service and no longer generated any revenue for them. There are more out there but 129,000 had reached the 4 year mark already. Tivo could clearly see they were losing money on lifetime subs and didn't want anymore of them.

[Stu_Bee]

Also, I bet series 2 people that aren't too up on what Tivo's "Lifetime" term means, are gonna learn when they get a Series 3.....that it is the Lifetime of their original Tivo Device (non-transferable), not their own

Of course, all us forum readers know this, but I'm sure there are a few customers that will be enlightened shortly. :)

[Stormspace]

we are going to end something that is costing us a serious amount of money to our bottom line - but first lets make sure we can quadruple the drain on our bottom line by telling all the customers we are ending it :rolleyes:

There is no argument that doing as you say above would have cost them more, however it was poor marketing and customer service to not "come clean" with it. If you find a 100.00 bill on the ground, its in your best interest to keep it, but the right thing to do is find out if anyone lost any money. This is a similar instance when doing to right thing would have cost them, but its the right thing to do. The fact that they didn't just enforces the state of corporate responsibility in the US.

[lessd]

There is no argument that doing as you say above would have cost them more, however it was poor marketing and customer service to not "come clean" with it. If you find a 100.00 bill on the ground, its in your best interest to keep it, but the right thing to do is find out if anyone lost any money. This is a similar instance when doing to right thing would have cost them, but its the right thing to do. The fact that they didn't just enforces the state of corporate responsibility in the US.

TiVos change in policy about Lifetime and pantiles did not effect any current TiVo owner, the indication here is that many of the monthly people would have switched to lifetime if they had only known, my question is why their were on monthly in the first place. For a first time TiVo user lifetime (this is for you people who know finance) cost was not $299 the real cost was $286.05 as you needed to give TiVo $12.95 so that the increases to make it lifetime was only $286.05 more out of your pocket. If somebody just took out one of those credit cards offers one gets in the mail and charged the $286.05 on it, paid 12.95 per month to the credit card the total thing would have been paid off in 2 years and 2 months or less, you then got a bonus that you could get about $200 to $250 more for you TiVo with lifetime on it. (that's before TiVo stopped lifetime, now you can get about $400 more) That means your real cost of lifetime was small. Monthly people may have switched to lifetime knowing the value of lifetime was going up, why should TiVo have given that gift away. You snooze you loose

[c3]

Even if TiVo sent out a message to everyone, I'm sure many people would still complain.

[classicsat]

It doesn't even need NTSC signals - it just needs an ATSC remote-controlled tuner with composite/s-video + audio outputs. I would assume that most external ATSC tuners (for example cable boxes) have that?
Cable boxes,at least the ones currently provided by the cable companies, do not do ATSC at all, just QAM.
The S2DT fits current and future requirements. to work with an external STB that provides a composite or S-video output, which STBs should be including for some time to come.

[classicsat]

Well, we don't know what Tivo really thinks. The logical reason for the lack of OTA support on new Tivos is the legal requirement for ATSC tuners in new devices as of some time next year.

More or less, yes. The actual requirement is they include an ATSC tuner or drop OTA NTSC. The chose the latter for the DT, the former for the S3.


It would need to control an STB, but if you mean an external ATSC tuner, the Tivo would also have to be able to deal with subchannels for the OTA HD stations. Presumably that will never happen for S1s, and I suspect (also with no proof whatsoever) that it's unlikely to happen for S2s. Would it be a reasonable compromise to only be able to tune to a 'main' HD channel to support external HD tuners? I don't know, but that'd presumably be easier to implement/retrofit on existing Tivos.

Sub channels wouldn't be that hard, really. There would be minor issues to resolve, but the concept is very doeable. Now is there a market drive to add that support I don't know, but I am optomistic that they will add support for ATSC tuners, by 2009 perhaps.

[classicsat]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

The way TiVo has been working, I wouldn't say so. Yes, the hardware is a bit old, but the software on all the series 2s have been continuously updated, so an old box more or less operates like a new one.

[classicsat]

Not to stir the pot again, but "TiVo" DID not give "plenty" of warning to their subscribers.

are instituting a major change to their current subscription /service offerings.

Lifetime is not for subscribers, it is for hardware buyers, more or less.

Their service offerings have't changed, just one bad for them price plan has been eliminated.

[MickeS]

Verizon phone service - When they discarded their "Freedom Extra" plan (which I'm on), they included the announcement in their billing newsletter at least a month prior to ceasing to offer it. To get the same service/feature plan now, would cost the customer $44/mth more.

They removed an existing plan which customers were using and paying for monthly. Even if they did get a few more signups before it was discontinued, they would have kept making money on it. Although I doubt that a lot of people would have switched to that plan if they didn't already have it.


Nextel cell phone service - Made minute and plan price change to "Free Incoming" call plan. Current new subscribers pay $5 more and receive 100 less minutes. Once again, a blurb was included in the billing newsletter.

See above.


Cablevision tv - approx 3 yrs ago, can't remember the plan details, as it did not affect me, but they ceased offering a plan, and informed their customers via billing.

See above.


Prodigy/SBC Yahoo - back when I was still on dialup, when they were merging they stopped offering/increased a mthly fee for strictly email accts, and informed customers via email newsletter.

See above.

TiVO has NOT taken away ANY existing service for existing customers. In my opinion none of the situations above are analogous.

[ZeoTiVo]

There is no argument that doing as you say above would have cost them more, however it was poor marketing and customer service to not "come clean" with it. If you find a 100.00 bill on the ground, its in your best interest to keep it, but the right thing to do is find out if anyone lost any money. This is a similar instance when doing to right thing would have cost them, but its the right thing to do. The fact that they didn't just enforces the state of corporate responsibility in the US.

if the move was effecting current subscription conditions then they would be responsible to inform all. fact is that by removing lifetime nothing changed for anyone. Why be on monthly if you would get upset that lifetime was gone. Get on lifetime in the first place.

TiVo did anounce the end of it here, did let that be a press release that was picked up by any that thought it newsworthy nad then extended the time to get Lifetime susbcription due to many posts here. It was never an anouncement of Lifetime ended yesterday. bUt people are human and will not remember all that :rolleyes:

[Stylin]

They removed an existing plan which customers were using and paying for monthly. Even if they did get a few more signups before it was discontinued, they would have kept making money on it.
Yes, but those companies are no longer making as much money as they currently could. (I assume) It was no longer profitable so they discontinued it. Not that big of a difference from Tivo. But they let their customers know that after a certain date that non-profitable plan would no longer be available.
Once again, whether or not they were losing money is not the centre of this discussion (we are all aware of why tivo decided to end LT). If I read you correctly, it was ok for tivo not to inform it's customers of the end of LT b/c they were losing money? In my book, that is not ok. Regardless of the reasoning behind the end of LT, customers should have been informed. The examples I referenced are definitely relevant. I don't subscribe to Verizon DSL, but am still updated of changes.
Although I doubt that a lot of people would have switched to that plan if they didn't already have it.
Here I agree with you. Just like the other service providers, I doubt Tivo would've rec'd much of a changeover from most mthly subscribers. I believe that most ppl who signed up for LT already had it or were already very interested in it. The deadline just pushed them into a little earlier. But all of that does not excuse Tivo from informing their customers.
TiVO has NOT taken away ANY existing service for existing customers. In my opinion none of the situations above are analogous.
Neither did any of the companies I referenced (except Prodigy/Yahoo), so each is relevant and comparable to this discussion.

(Edited): So what should happen in the following hypothetical scenario?: I currently have 1 (LT) unit in my household. If Tivo decides to no longer offer new MSD by a certain date, even though I'm not using it and have LT, should they inform me/us?

[c3]

So what should happen in the following hypothetical scenario?: I currently have 1 (LT) unit in my household. If Tivo decides to no longer offer new MSD by a certain date, even though I'm not using it and have LT, should they inform me/us?

No, unless MSD is part of the lifetime subscription agreement.

[megazone]

(Edited): So what should happen in the following hypothetical scenario?: I currently have 1 (LT) unit in my household. If Tivo decides to no longer offer new MSD by a certain date, even though I'm not using it and have LT, should they inform me/us?No. They should only notify *existing* MSD customers, if this means the MSD rate is going away and their fees will increase.

If they're going to grandfather existing MSD customers and keep them at the same rate, they I don't think they should notify anyone. It doesn't impact any existing subscriptions, an option is simply going away for any new boxes.

[Stylin]

LMAO!! Oh, puleeeze! Gimme a break. If they decided to do away w/ MSD and didn't notify you, I'm sure you'd be up in arms.
Just as other companies inform their customers of changing services, Tivo had the responsibility to do the same.
Just b/c someone doesn't "have" to do something, doesn't mean they "shouldn't".

[ZeoTiVo]

LMAO!! Oh, puleeeze! Gimme a break. If they decided to do away w/ MSD and didn't notify you, I'm sure you'd be up in arms.
Just as other companies inform their customers of changing services, Tivo had the responsibility to do the same.
Just b/c someone doesn't "have" to do something, doesn't mean they "shouldn't".
why would customers be paying monthly if they wanted lifetime in the first place. Did anyone's amount they pay change? To say that changing a monthly rate is the same as dropping Lifetime option is not arguing the real point. The two are very different things.

[megazone]

LMAO!! Oh, puleeeze! Gimme a break. If they decided to do away w/ MSD and didn't notify you, I'm sure you'd be up in arms.You know what - get over yourself. You asked, and you got an honest answer. You can be 'sure' of whatever you want. You just can't accept that some of us don't agree with your worldview, so now you're just going to dismiss responses that are counter to yours. That's crap.

I couldn't care less if they dumped MSD. The only thing I care about is if *MY* costs are going up. If my bill jumped with no notice, yeah, I'd be upset. But I do NOT expect vendors to tell me every time they change their plans. My cell companies (Verizon, AT&T Wireless, Cingular) don't tell me every time they change pricing plans - only if *my* plan is going to change. My insurance company doesn't tell me when all their rates change - just when my rates change. I can go on with more examples.

Frankly I DO *NOT* want vendors bugging me with crap I don't need to know about. I get enough useless data already. Don't bug me with pricing changes that don't mean anything to me. Everytime I get something like that I have to stop and wonder if it impacts me in some way, and when it doesn't I'm annoyed that they wasted my time with useless info.

So I THANK TiVo for not bugging me with that crap.

[Stormspace]

Why be on monthly if you would get upset that lifetime was gone. Get on lifetime in the first place.

You don't get it man. It's not about lifetime going away that upsets people, it's about not properly communicating it to all subscribers. Most are frustrated because they didn't have the option whether they would have exercised it or not.

[ZeoTiVo]

You don't get it man. It's not about lifetime going away that upsets people, it's about not properly communicating it to all subscribers. Most are frustrated because they didn't have the option whether they would have exercised it or not.
No, I do get it. It is about people not knowing that lifetime was going away. But why would that make any difference to a rational person.

They were fine paying monthly and ignoring lifetime until suddenly lifetime goes away, and soemone should have told them they would only be able to do the thing they are already doing. That is just not rational and the arguments about should have notified monthly subscribers that they will no longer have access to a plan they have actively chosen not to use are also not rational.

[Stormspace]

But why would that make any difference to a rational person.

That pretty much sums it up. The reaction is not a rational one, but an emotional one. For you an me we can say whether or not LT going away made any difference since we knew about it. When I told a close friend who's TiVo crazy( and thinks he's Mr. TiVo in this area cuz he had one first) his FIRST reaction was emotional. "Why didn't they tell us? It'd be so easy with the TiVo interface."

I agreed, but unlike my friend I wasn't upset about it since I knew all along and also knew that LT wasn't for me even though I had considered it many times.

Generally PR decisions aren't to mollify the rational thinkers, but the emotional ones, and this is where TiVo dropped the ball. Because of how they did it people are going to be angry and frustrated and I'm saying it could have been avoided somewhat by coming clean to all subscribers. Release the information once instead of setting up a group of your customers that think you were trying to get one by on them, which is exactly what TIVo did.

[HTH]

Shifty would be what a local multi-node BBS called Cyberspace did, which was to sell lifetime accounts, then when they decided to discontinue selling lifetime accounts, start harrassing those users who paid for lifetime to get them to stop using the system.

I don't fault TiVo for no longer selling lifetime accounts. I'm just not going to pay the same amount again to transfer it to a new box.

[borderline]

we are going to end something that is costing us a serious amount of money to our bottom line - but first lets make sure we can quadruple the drain on our bottom line by telling all the customers we are ending it :rolleyes:
They were fine paying monthly and ignoring lifetime until suddenly lifetime goes away, and soemone should have told them they would only be able to do the thing they are already doing. That is just not rational. . .
Rational thinking seems to be in short supply these days. So which is it? Did TiVo not notify customers because people on monthly couldn't possibly be interested in lifetime, or because if they had it would have been financially devastating?

[ZeoTiVo]

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply these days. So which is it? Did TiVo not notify customers because people on monthly couldn't possibly be interested in lifetime, or because if they had it would have been financially devastating?
I am saying it is both, but not as dramatically as "possibly be interested" or "financially devastating" ;)

being realistic
TiVo did not want a rush of customers so they did not make the end of lifetime into a large event and just simply reported the fact and let the news media pick it up as they saw fit. The forum was the only real source of complete information unless you found a good CSR.

I am saying that TiVo being compelled by some PR reason to inform everyone who is doing monthly that an option they do not use is going away is not rational. I can agree with Stormspace that it is an emotional reason to have wanted to be informed but any rational person would have already made their choice on monthly or lifetime.

so the rational thing for TiVo (bad to run business on purely emotions) is what the y did. Publish a heads up that it was going away. Make sure new buyers did not think lifetime was available and perhaps make some exceptions, like they did by extending the deadline for getting lifetime.

[borderline]

Actually, I think you did express it pretty dramatically (not that I think you were being entirely serious). I don't think anyone was asking TiVo to make the end of lifetime into a "large event," but surely you wouldn't call sending a message to everyone's TiVo a large event.
. . .any rational person would have already made their choice on monthly or lifetime.
A lot of people probably go monthly when they get their first TiVo since they don't know if they'll like it. A rational person could still decide to switch to lifetime. And you're completely ignoring the resale value. Lifetime TiVo's were selling for $150+ more after TiVo stopped offering lifetime.

I don't think a company doing something for PR reasons is irrational. Personally, I knew about lifetime ending and I wasn't affected by this. You feel that TiVo did the right thing by not informing all of its customers. Just as I'm sure you would have felt they did the right thing if they had informed all their customers. ;)

[MarkL]

TiVos change in policy about Lifetime and pantiles did not effect any current TiVo owner, the indication here is that many of the monthly people would have switched to lifetime if they had only known, my question is why their were on monthly in the first place.

I was one of those people, thank you.

And I found out about the lifetime thing about 6 days before it was too late.

The bottom line is this: While TiVO was not legally obligated to inform anyone about it's decision to end Lifetime subscriptions, it was certainally ethically "gray" to do so without so much as a "by the way". They certainly avail themselves of their own messaging system for just about anything else.

The bottom line is that this kind of thing just reminds us that no for-profit company is really ever in it for the "benefit of the customer". The goal of every such company is to increase shareholder equity. If fostering or developing customer loyalty gets in the way, then screw the customer.

It's a poor reflection on the US consumer when we act surprised that a company would act in any other way that the way that maximizes company value.

Yes, TiVo can decide how and when to sell their product. Yes, it was crappy that they did it "under the radar" in this case. No, nobody should be surprised.

[c3]

screw the customer

How did TiVo screw the customer? TiVo offered lifetime subscription for many years. People just want something they cannot have.

[Stormspace]

How did TiVo screw the customer? TiVo offered lifetime subscription for many years. People just want something they cannot have.

The way I read it he was stating that given a choice of being profitable or showing good will to all customers, the corp will choose profitability. The screwing of the customer results from them being on the wrong end of the decision and thus loosing out on the deal that might have been.

In this case its a lost opportunity only and not a physical loss.

[Stylin]

You know what - get over yourself. You asked, and you got an honest answer. You can be 'sure' of whatever you want. You just can't accept that some of us don't agree with your worldview, so now you're just going to dismiss responses that are counter to yours. That's crap.
Why don't you get over yourself??? Simply put: I did not believe your answer and I said so. If you don't like it, I guess that's too friggin bad for you.

[c3]

Simply put: I did not believe your answer and I said so.

So you don't believe in other people's opinion which is different from yours.

All of my TiVos are lifetime units. Why would I care about MSD or no MSD? Actually, no MSD is even better for lifetime units.

[Stylin]

You don't get it man. It's not about lifetime going away that upsets people, it's about not properly communicating it to all subscribers. Most are frustrated because they didn't have the option whether they would have exercised it or not.
Exactly. :up:
Reasons of why it went away, what service customers are on, wanting LT now etc. are all insignificant. What "smacks" ppl is the Tivo interface is used to advertise/communicate every little thing they can think of - but not this? I suspect that only a handful of subscribers (outside of those that already did) would've signed up for LT before the deadline. Many ppl do not do the math or just don't want to commit to $300 investment. Most likely the same reasons they were on mthly in the first place BUT that doesn't mean all customers shouldn't have been informed.
Shouldn't your paying subscribers be informed of a service change, before or soon after media outlets???

[Stylin]

So you don't believe in other people's opinion which is different from yours.

All of my TiVos are lifetime units. Why would I care about MSD or no MSD? Actually, no MSD is even better for lifetime units.
Obviously you missed (or refused to acknowledge) the point. Unfortunately, it would seem you are not able to assess a situation unless you are personally and directly affected by it.
As I stated previously, I knew about the end of LT, and will prolly stay abreast of any other changes (via this forum) so Tivo's lack of direct communication did/does not affect me directly, but I still retain the ability to see/understand the impact of Tivo's lack of communication in regards to it's customers frustration.

[c3]

Obviously you missed (or refused to acknowledge) the point. Unfortunately, it would seem you are not able to assess a situation unless you are personally and directly affected by it.

Fact: TiVo wanted to discontinue lifetime in order to minimize the number of lifetime subscribers.
Fact: TiVo was not obligated to communicate changes which did not affect existing service subscriptions.

If you were a TiVo executive, what would you have done?

[megazone]

Simply put: I did not believe your answer and I said so.So anyone who disagrees with you is a liar - because everyone agrees with you, either openly or secretly. Or maybe you're a solipsist and you're just talking to yourself.

[ZeoTiVo]

Fact: TiVo wanted to discontinue lifetime in order to minimize the number of lifetime subscribers.
Fact: TiVo was not obligated to communicate changes which did not affect existing service subscriptions.

If you were a TiVo executive, what would you have done?

what TiVo did and then not read this stupid thread. It has become painfully obvious that people are running on emotion in this thread and reason has no place.

[Stormspace]

I hate to be in the minority, but any rational person can see that something as important as the lifetime option should have been communicated to all subscribers. That same rational person should also be able to deduce that not everyone reacts rationally, and that steps to minimize an emotional reaction could have been taken.

That same rational person could also see that the perception would be that TiVo did not want to increase their liability and expense by communicating this change to their entire user base because of the negative reaction it would have generated. They wanted to do it as quietly as possible so they announced it in a forum so the most diehard and vocal users could get in on it and then defend them to the end once it was over. "What! You don't read the forum?"

It is quite rational for someone to expect that TiVo would use the message system to communicate something of this magnitude the same way they communicated about the new Terms of Service, KidZone, Guru Guides, HME, etc. Of the very few things you can do with a TiVo once it's purchased is to change the subscription type or cancel service. That's really it. It is not unreasonable for people to expect to be told about something like this regardless of the reasons why Lifetime was discontinued. TiVo made a mistake and as people realize what was done they are going to be upset and wonder what else TiVo will take away without telling them.

What's especially bad about this is that TiVo has prospered mostly due to word of mouth and the user community talking it up. They have the reputation for being friendly and grateful to their user base treating them not so much as a monthly check, but as real people who they are interested in pleasing. This unfortunately is a hard cold slap in the face to the people that thought that way as TiVo did what any other corporation would have done. Basically the shine has worn off.

It's unfortunate but I think TiVo jumped the shark with this move and their customer service will decline and become less personal from this point forward even though the product may get better and TiVo thrive because of it. But for those rational thinkers out there it's not really important if a company considers our feelings as long as they make money, right?

[ZeoTiVo]

well if there was a large emotional reaction then that would be something that should be worried about more. Given that this emotional reaction is not seen everywhere then not so much an issue

[Stormspace]

The majority of TiVo users don't frequent this forum, so it's likely only TiVo will ever know the true impact of this decision.

On a brighter note. How bout that Series 3! Maybe when I win the lottery I'll be able to get one. ;)

[Stylin]

So anyone who disagrees with you is a liar - because everyone agrees with you, either openly or secretly. Or maybe you're a solipsist and you're just talking to yourself.
Dude, what part of "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU" did you not get??? and as I said before "If you don't like it, I guess that's too friggin bad for you".
You can sit there and try to intimidate and insult all you want. It isn't working. Save that ish for your blog.

[megazone]

Dude, what part of "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU" did you not get???I got it - I have a different opinion, therefore I'm lying because that's not possible. What part of THAT did YOU not get? Everyone MUST agree with you and anyone who doesn't you just don't believe. That seems to be the case here. You pick and choose what facts to accept and just disbelieve those you don't like. Nice. If you don't like it, that's just too goddamn bad.

[Stylin]

Fact: TiVo wanted to discontinue lifetime in order to minimize the number of lifetime subscribers.
Fact: TiVo was not obligated to communicate changes which did not affect existing service subscriptions.
If you were a TiVo executive, what would you have done?
IMO, As an Exec, I would've sent a message to all customers via the interface. I would've stated that LT was ending and have sugared it up by putting more of the emphasis on the "new & improved" pricing plan. I would've sent the message through, knowing that it would be ignored by a large number of subscribers. I prolly would not have announced it here or to any media outlets, knowing that they would get wind of it eventually. In doing this simple thing I would have preserved customer loyalty, service and an overall positive relationship of trust with my customers.

slightly OT: Tho, not directly, I do see the ceasing of LT service as a change that affects exisiting subscribers. When a customer receives that boxed Tivo, one of the first things that jumps out is "LT sub available" ...

[Stylin]

I hate to be in the minority, but any rational person can see that something as important as the lifetime option should have been communicated to all subscribers. That same rational person should also be able to deduce that not everyone reacts rationally, and that steps to minimize an emotional reaction could have been taken.

That same rational person could also see that the perception would be that TiVo did not want to increase their liability and expense by communicating this change to their entire user base because of the negative reaction it would have generated. They wanted to do it as quietly as possible so they announced it in a forum so the most diehard and vocal users could get in on it and then defend them to the end once it was over. "What! You don't read the forum?"

It is quite rational for someone to expect that TiVo would use the message system to communicate something of this magnitude the same way they communicated about the new Terms of Service, KidZone, Guru Guides, HME, etc. Of the very few things you can do with a TiVo once it's purchased is to change the subscription type or cancel service. That's really it. It is not unreasonable for people to expect to be told about something like this regardless of the reasons why Lifetime was discontinued. TiVo made a mistake and as people realize what was done they are going to be upset and wonder what else TiVo will take away without telling them.

What's especially bad about this is that TiVo has prospered mostly due to word of mouth and the user community talking it up. They have the reputation for being friendly and grateful to their user base treating them not so much as a monthly check, but as real people who they are interested in pleasing. This unfortunately is a hard cold slap in the face to the people that thought that way as TiVo did what any other corporation would have done. Basically the shine has worn off.

It's unfortunate but I think TiVo jumped the shark with this move and their customer service will decline and become less personal from this point forward even though the product may get better and TiVo thrive because of it. But for those rational thinkers out there it's not really important if a company considers our feelings as long as they make money, right?

Once again, you've summed it up perfectly.

[greg_burns]

slightly OT: Tho, not directly, I do see the ceasing of LT service as a change that affects exisiting subscribers. When a customer receives that boxed Tivo, one of the first things that jumps out is "LT sub available" ...

They took that wording off the box awhile ago.

http://home.comcast.net/~greg_burns/images/boxtop.jpg

[Resist]

I hate to say this, but with no lifetime option I may have to be forced to go to cable dvr due to cost
I totally agree. Without the lifetime, Tivo costs to much. And now that Tivo has the their new HD unit for $800, the cost really goes up. I want am willing to pay the $800 for this new unit but only if I can get the lifetime service and without losing the lifetime in my other Tivo. So at this point in time Tivo has lost my money.

[c3]

I want am willing to pay the $800 for this new unit but only if I can get the lifetime service and without losing the lifetime in my other Tivo.

You can: eBay. The price is probably similar to what TiVo would charge if they kept the lifetime option.

[killzone]

Lifetime is stupid. By the time you pay much less than lifetime cost, the box is outdated anyway.

I loved selling several dozen lifetime SD boxes to morons on ebay. "Yay, now you can record non-existant NTSC signals forever!" Boneheads at $700 a pop.


Huh? I paid $199 for lifetime on one unit and $100 on my second. They have been in service for almost 7 years. Now it's time to upgrade to HD and I can even transfer the sub on one box for free since it was grandfathered.

Doh! I guess I should have gone monthly.

[lessd]

On Nov 5 TiVo changed prices without any notice anywhere for new customers or old customers also, a person who bought a TiVo on Nov 4 at Best Buy and had looked up the prices on the TiVo web sight before purchasing the unit then went to activated the new TiVo on Nov 5 and found different pricing, was that fair ???

[c3]

Yes. If the customer does not like the new prices, just return the TiVo.

Prices change all the time. I have seen Amazon changing the price on one item several times a day.

[HTH]

I'm just not going to pay the same amount again to transfer it to a new box.
Strange now that, due to shenanigans at my cable company, and that the Series3 isn't eligible for multi-unit discount, I'm actually giving this consideration, as the box losing its lifetime service is (was?) eligible.

[c3]

the Series3 isn't eligible for multi-unit discount

What are you talking about?

[HTH]

What are you talking about?
Every time I've looked up the Series3 HD unit, it included a note about it not being eligible for the Multi-Service Discount. Did I misinterpret that as being eternally ineligble and not just during the required prepaid period?

Hmm, reading their terms, looks like having a second lifetime service doesn't get me Multi-Service Discount on a second 5 additional TiVos either unless it's moved to another account. If so, I might as well give it to my mother to reduce her monthy service charge.

[c3]

Every time I've looked up the Series3 HD unit, it included a note about it not being eligible for the Multi-Service Discount. Did I misinterpret that as being eternally ineligble and not just during the required prepaid period?

In order to get the MSD rate, you have to pay monthly. Prepaid plans and packages are not eligible.