S3 Confusion - what is required?

[nhaigh]

OK, I've been reading all the posts about the S3 in the hope it will make me feel better about it not being out yet and realizing it won't. In the process I've got confused about what is needed to make it work so I'm trying to find some clarity.

I'm a Comcast Digital cable user and have no OTA capability. I intend to buy the S3, an HDTV and get two cablecards but have a simple question:

Does it work without the cablecards for digital/HD?

In other words will I buy the S3 and the HDTV and sit there waiting for comcast to turn up and install a cablecard before I can play with it?

I'm pretty sure I've read it will, but then I've also read the cablecard is needed to remap the channel numbers to the guide to make it work. Can someone help me understand what is needed in what order. Should I (can I) order the cable cards now to have them ready for when the S3 arrives? I want to get the logistics right to avoid the pain of having an $800 TiVo and a $3500 TV sitting there not working because one piece of the puzzle is not in place yet!!!!


I'm not a patient person :)

[Dan203]

The box should be capable of tuning unencrypted digital channels without a CableCARD. However the problem is it wont have any way to assign those cannels guide data unless it has a way to manually map the channels (i.e. an interface that lets you tell it that channel 88.2 is NBC-HD) or if you have a CableCARD installed. (CableCARDs automatically map channels for the host)

Personally I don't think TiVo will offer a manual map function because it's too complicated and they like things to be very simple. However others have indicated that the Sony CableCARD DVR that was out last year had this feature and it was simple. Honestly we wont know how it's going to work until it's released and someone actually tries it.

Dan

[nhaigh]

Thanks. That is as I feared from what I read. I guess I'm just going to have to prepare myself for the pain of looking at the box for a few days waiting for comcast to arrive :( I will probably add to that pain by trying to watch the TV live !!!! How do you do that again? Is it in the manual somewhere? :D

[greg_burns]

The box should be capable of tuning unencrypted digital channels without a CableCARD. However the problem is it wont have any way to assign those cannels guide data unless it has a way to manually map the channels (i.e. an interface that lets you tell it that channel 88.2 is NBC-HD) or if you have a CableCARD installed. (CableCARDs automatically map channels for the host)

I thought the manual channel mapping was desired only for the in the clear HD channels via the QAM tuner. (And only then if the Tivo guide data didn't already have them listed.)

Are you saying you won't be able to get basic cable channels (ie < 100) w/o a cable card either? :confused:

Edit: Ok, I think I get it now. As long as my cable company is sending analog versions of channels <100 the analog tuner will grab em. If they only do digital version of <100 then, yes, I would need a cable card. Sound right?

[MickeS]

Nope that's not what he's saying. He's saying what you thought. :)

I'm more interested in the OTA functionality. I figured that all I need to do is hook up an antenna... right?

[greg_burns]

Nope that's not what he's saying. He's saying what you thought. :)

I'm more interested in the OTA functionality. I figured that all I need to do is hook up an antenna... right?

I would think so. But then again, the guide data has to have your area's OTA lineup. Will that be a problem?

[phox_mulder]

I would think so. But then again, the guide data has to have your area's OTA lineup. Will that be a problem?

Should get it like every other TiVo before it.

Tell it your zip code during guided setup, plug in the phone line or internet connection, and Voila!


phox

[greg_burns]

Should get it like every other TiVo before it.

Tell it your zip code during guided setup, plug in the phone line or internet connection, and Voila!


phox

But every other Tivo before it (excluding perhaps the HD DirectTivo - which I read gets its guide data from DirectTV; not Tivo), doesn't have guide data for OTA HD channels...

[phox_mulder]

But every other Tivo before it (excluding perhaps the HD DirectTivo - which I read gets its guide data from DirectTV; not Tivo), doesn't have guide data for OTA HD channels...

Previous standalone TiVo's couldn't see or record HD OTA channels,
therefore the guide didn't need to show them.

The only problem I foresee with the S3 is guide overload.
Since it can record so many sources, it will show everything it can record.

The HR10-250 guide suffers from that a bit,
as it shows the local channels from the satellite along with the OTA HD channels and subchannels.

Fer instance, I end up with 2 channel 2's (2 and 2-1), 4 channel 4's (4, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3), 4 channel 5's (5, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3), etc.
I don't even want to go into the two PBS stations we have here, both doing up to 5 subchannels..

Then keeping track of which is SD, which is HD, which is HD downconvert, which is SD upconvert, which is the 24/7 Weather channel.


phox

[greg_burns]

The only problem I foresee with the S3 is guide overload.
Since it can record so many sources, it will show everything it can record.

My concern was that the data wouldn't even be in the guide (for QAM HD or OTA HD). But a quick look at zap2it.com does indeed show all the OTA HD channels in their lineup for antenna (for my area). Doesn't Tivo use info from them in some fashion?

QAM HD channel lineup is MIA.

[megazone]

The S3 will support OTA NTSC and ATSC out of the box. It will also support analog cable out of the box. Nothing else is needed.

You need CableCARD for digital cable for the decryption and channel mapping that's known.

The one unknown is if the unit will have a way to map in-the-clear QAM stations to tune them without a CableCARD. Personally I doubt it.

[phox_mulder]

My concern was that the data wouldn't even be in the guide (for QAM HD or OTA HD). But a quick look at zap2it.com does indeed show all the OTA HD channels in their lineup for antenna (for my area). Doesn't Tivo use info from them in some fashion?

Yes, in a fashion.

TiVo gets their guide info from Tribune Media Services,
Zap2it gets their info from Tribune Media Services, so it should be the same.


phox

[Dan203]

Maybe I am not the norm (as I discovered in another thread about this same topic), but my in the clear QAM channel have indetifiers. My TV plainy reads "NBCHD", "CBSHD", etc. it also has the show listed. Wouldn't TiVo be able to pick up on what the station identifier is and process the guide data that way? Or do the channels really move around that much?

I have no idea how that even works. It's possible they could support that, but it's also possible that this is a special feature of your TV and is not the norm for QAM based devices. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this all works.

Dan

[greg_burns]

I have no idea how that even works. It's possible they could support that, but it's also possible that this is a special feature of your TV and is not the norm for QAM based devices. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this all works.

Dan

My Sony has it as well.

I'd read this Wikipedia entry just the other day...

Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_and_System_Information_Protocol)

[terryfoster]

Maybe I am not the norm (as I discovered in another thread about this same topic), but my in the clear QAM channel have indetifiers. My TV plainy reads "NBCHD", "CBSHD", etc. it also has the show listed. Wouldn't TiVo be able to pick up on what the station identifier is and process the guide data that way? Or do the channels really move around that much?
I have no idea how that even works. It's possible they could support that, but it's also possible that this is a special feature of your TV and is not the norm for QAM based devices. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this all works.

Dan
My Sony has it as well.

I'd read this Wikipedia entry just the other day...

Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_and_System_Information_Protocol)

It really isn't as much a QAM feature as it is an ATSC feature. ATSC requires PSIP, but how much information is shared through PSIP is not yet clear. I believe the minimum is the channel mapping and some guide data.

While Eric's TV says "NBCHD" my local affiliate sets the channel name value to "WLWT-DT" so there isn't really a standard practice for identifiers. Not to mention, PSIP data isn't passed by all cable providers.

So, because of these variances TiVo probably won't be able to "pick up on the station identifier" and has probably not invested any time into using much the PSIP data either.

[mattn2]

If the S3 can't do QAM remapping w/o a CableCard, it is worthless to me. I am not about to spend the $$$ to add the digital cable package to my setup. I already have D* for everything else (feeding all 3 existing TiVos). In my town, the only HD on cable is the big 4. And they are required to be free. The cable co did an "upgrade" over the last 2 years and did not increase bandwidth... All they support is the big 4. OTA-Digital is MIA due to NIMBY problem (Denver DMA).

I get more HD from D* then I will ever get from Comcast. Just was wanting S3 to get the alphabet networks QAM, and no additional $$$ to the lame cable co.

# Matt

[Goontoe]

Is the CableCard something that I can install myself? Can I swing by Cox Cable, pick two cards up and install them in my TiVo without having to wait on the service guys to come to my home?

[jfh3]

If the S3 can't do QAM remapping w/o a CableCard, it is worthless to me. I am not about to spend the $$$ to add the digital cable package to my setup. I already have D* for everything else (feeding all 3 existing TiVos). In my town, the only HD on cable is the big 4. And they are required to be free. The cable co did an "upgrade" over the last 2 years and did not increase bandwidth... All they support is the big 4. OTA-Digital is MIA due to NIMBY problem (Denver DMA).

I'm not sure I'd say it's worthless to me without QAM mapping, but it sure would be far less desirable, especially to all the poor potential customers in the Denver area.

There's no excuse for Tivo not including this trivial feature.

Of course, the whole Denver OTA-digital issue is bordering on criminal. :(

[jfh3]

Is the CableCard something that I can install myself? Can I swing by Cox Cable, pick two cards up and install them in my TiVo without having to wait on the service guys to come to my home?

Technically yes, but it depends on whether your local branch will permit it.

The cable card is just like a PCcard that you would install into a laptop. You'll go to a setup screen on the Tivo, get a few numbers, call them into the cable company, who will enter it into their system to authorize the paired cablecard-device setup.

[jlb]

You know.....all this confusion makes one not even want to consider spending $799 on 9/17.

[Dajad]

jlb, presumably TiVo will answer these questions before 9/17 OR the TiVo folks will be able to start answering them here once given the thumbs up from management.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. The HD DirecTiVos have been recording OTA HD for a couple years now. Persumably TiVo has this all worked out and the DirecTV folks recording local HD should have most of the answers for this already (save for the in-the clear QAM question which will be releveant to only a tiny minority of us).

...Dale

[phox_mulder]

You know.....all this confusion makes one not even want to consider spending $799 on 9/17.

The first person to do so can singlehandedly end all confusion,
be exalted by his peers, carried on shoulders up and down the square while confetti falls about.


phox

[Dan203]

jlb, presumably TiVo will answer these questions before 9/17 OR the TiVo folks will be able to start answering them here once given the thumbs up from management.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. The HD DirecTiVos have been recording OTA HD for a couple years now. Persumably TiVo has this all worked out and the DirecTV folks recording local HD should have most of the answers for this already (save for the in-the clear QAM question which will be releveant to only a tiny minority of us).

The problem is this is not OTA HD we're talking about. It's QAM based HD sent by the cable companies. Unfortunately they tend to move these stations around a lot, and they don't publish any sort of listing of the RAW QAM assignments, so there is really no way for TiVo to keep track of them like they do OTA channels. Which means they either need an interface for the user to manually keep track of them or a CableCARD which automatically keeps track of them. The people who don't currently have digital cable are hoping for a manual option so that they can grab the free local HD networks off of cable without having to rent a CableCARD.

For people who simply want to grab HD via an antenna they shouldn't have any problems at all, since those channel assignmants are reported to Tribune and TiVo should have lineup data on them.

Dan

[MickeS]

The first person to do so can singlehandedly end all confusion,
be exalted by his peers, carried on shoulders up and down the square while confetti falls about.


phox

And potentially save everyone else a lot of money. :)

[apsarkis]

...save for the in-the clear QAM question which will be releveant to only a tiny minority of us...


I think the handling of in-the-clear HD channels is a major question for many. 7 of the 10 HD channels I get on my TW cable system are received, although with cryptic channel numbers, on my Sharp "Aquos" TV without a CableCard installed. I'd only get one CC, as long as I can get the other 7 channels with the other QAM tuner.

Perry

[greg_burns]

The problem is this is not OTA HD we're talking about.

I think Dajad may have been referring to the FUD I was spreading in this thread about OTA lineups. :o Glad to hear Tivo has that part well under control.

[Dan203]

I think the handling of in-the-clear HD channels is a major question for many. 7 of the 10 HD channels I get on my TW cable system are received, although with cryptic channel numbers, on my Sharp "Aquos" TV without a CableCard installed. I'd only get one CC, as long as I can get the other 7 channels with the other QAM tuner.

You'll almost certainly be able to tune those cryptic channels without a CableCARD, as that's just a byproduct of having QAM tuners. What's not known is if there will be a way to tell the TiVo which guide data to apply to those channels without installing a CableCARD. If not then all you'll be able to do is manual recordings from those channels.

Dan

[jfh3]

You'll almost certainly be able to tune those cryptic channels without a CableCARD, as that's just a byproduct of having QAM tuners.


What makes you think Tivo will allow tuning of a channel number that doesn't appear in its' underlying channel guide?

I'm guessing that if there is no map ability, you won't be allowed to tune it manually either (to avoid users seeing things like unencrypted PPV transmissions).

Besides, being able to tune a channel that can't be used by the Tivo functions doesn't provide much value. If I need to find the QAM frequencies, I can have my Sony scan for them ...

[Dan203]

TiVo allows this now with S2 units. You can tune any channel 2-99, regardless of whether or not it's in the guide data by simply typing in the channel number. You can even set up manual recordings on these channels. I see no reason why they wouldn't allow the same functionality with unencrypted QAM based channels. Then again who knows what kind of deal they had to strike to get CableLabs approval. <shrug>

Dan

[jfh3]

TiVo allows this now with S2 units. You can tune any channel 2-99, regardless of whether or not it's in the guide data by simply typing in the channel number.

Didn't realize this. Thought I tried it once and it didn't work (before my guide was updated).

OK, sounds good. But I'd prefer not to have to set up a boatload of manual recordings and have to remember all the QAM numbers. :)

[classicsat]

Yes, in a fashion.
TiVo gets their guide info from Tribune Media Services,
Zap2it gets their info from Tribune Media Services, so it should be the same.

Zap2it IS Tribune.

That said, they only reference actual channel numbers assigned by the cable operator, not the channel mappings, that would have to come over the digital cable somehow, and it seems a cablecard is needed for that.

[Dan203]

Actually the way the S2 works is that once an unknown channel is used to record something it's added to the channel list. So you'd only have to record from them once, then they would simply show up in the channel list. Although they still wouldn't have any data, so you'd have to remember which one was which and manual recordings would be listed as simply "Manual: date time".

Dan

[moyekj]

What makes you think Tivo will allow tuning of a channel number that doesn't appear in its' underlying channel guide?

I'm guessing that if there is no map ability, you won't be allowed to tune it manually either (to avoid users seeing things like unencrypted PPV transmissions).

Besides, being able to tune a channel that can't be used by the Tivo functions doesn't provide much value. If I need to find the QAM frequencies, I can have my Sony scan for them ... You should be able to tune to a specific unencrypted QAM sub-channel such as 7-2 as Dan mentioned since the S3 also has OTA ATSC support which uses similar channel-subchannel tuning. But obviously as has been re-hashed many times here without being able to map it manually to a Tivo guide channel it's pretty worthless for anything other than a manual recording setup.

This has been one of my biggest questions about the S3 for months now (I had a thread on this months ago) since I could live with dropping digital cable alltogether to save money if this works properly.

[nhaigh]

Well I've set the ball rolling and just shelled out for this (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=tv_ProjectionTVs_RearProjection_55to80TVs&ProductSKU=KDS60A2000&Dept=tvvideo&INT=sstyle-tv_ProjectionTVs-deptfeature-KDS60A2000|sstyle:sy_cat_content_p:tv_projectiontvs) because I at least want something to see the the guided setup on. :D

Will this TV be able to get any HD without a set top box using Comcast Cable or will I just be able to get SD with the TV on its own?